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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

infomon

Smash Scientist
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
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1. dont roll around marth, that is dancing blade bait.

2. dont try to space marth, that only makes you eat tippers.

3. if he fairs your shield you can fair him oos before the second fair comes out
This + moar.

Marth can't projectile spam us; so although he's still a threat around the stage so we don't have complete stage control, we can make effective use of our dash-y stuff like DDPs and whatnot. These really mess with a Marth's spacing, and our speed (even when we're outside his range) pressures the Marth since he's trying to space so carefully.

Charging a spindash (either of them) from mid-range is safe; you can actually use these to try and fake a premature response which we can punish. Whereas in many matchups, this is prone to just getting projectiled from afar. If he's in the air, I think you can falling-backwards-ASC-charge outside of his range and he can't catch up to you, and if you land on the ground before you've found an opening, VSDJ backwards to safety. Just another pressure tactic; and we thrive on having a diverse number of these to interchange over the course of a battle, IMO.

Dash attack to punish ground-stuff, like Dtilt spam (lol) or whiffed Fsmashes (moar lol). Be very very careful trying to gimp a planking marth; being unpredictable here helps, like sometimes just dropping springs, sometimes suggest that you're going for an opportune bair stagespike but hop away instead, etc.

Dancing blade is punishable, it just takes lots of experience. Other ppl discussed this already.

Fake-out spaced Bairs from just outside tipper range... that is, don't actually Bair him, just provoke whiffed attacks lol.

Spring > Dair is very annoying for a Marth to deal with, if you're doing it right! So returning to the stage can be safe and fun! :)
 

Espy Rose

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Can you guys move onto Wario in full then?
I say you guys because I'm rarely involved in character discussion.
 

Camalange

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Hey Chis, would you mind linking my post in the OP for the ROB write up? Since current one doesn't even CONTAIN ANYTHING.

:093:
 

JayBee

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someone tell me real quick the best way to punish/ DI Dancing blade please. for me, that's the only move that stops me from completely ****** some marths...
 

Umby

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Wario. I like retreating Fair -> DACUS or ftilt. Even if I have to run in to do it. The most important thing is to make sure you never shield grab. Everything you do on the defensive should be an OoS maneuver. Spin Dash combos should be done for quick damage at mid-range. Never at long-range, except maybe early in the match, even even then it would warrant a Homing Attack to prevent being bitten. Space with bairs. Keep your eye on his bike recovery. With VSDJ at your disposal, a high recovery off the bike can be easily punished when he jumps off. Dair usually solves lower bike recoveries.
 

Napilopez

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someone tell me real quick the best way to punish/ DI Dancing blade please. for me, that's the only move that stops me from completely ****** some marths...
Hmm... I'm not sure what exactly I do, but I usually don't have much trouble with it. I think I may just DI down to I touch the ground and can powershield/regrab. I remember malcolm saying you can shield between some of the hits.

Anyways, Sonic Vs. Marth.

65:35 is ridiculous Imo. I guess we need marth mains in here, but eww. Just eww.

If you are losing that badly to marth, the you are failing at spacing. Epicly.

The reason Sonic does decently against marth is because he scews up his spacing game. Yet wayyyyy too often I see sonics remain stagnant in their motions trying to play a defensive game against a character with vastly superior defensive strategies. That doesn't work.

Against marth, you move around alot, but you space youself to be clearly outside his range. Don't be fooled by the whole "he has no lag" stuff, just as what I say about MK. They both have lag plenty punishable by Sonic.

Lrn2Powershield and shieldgrab plox.

Marth is very vulnerable from below, and it just so happens we have the most disjointed Uair(not counting G&Ws... lol) in the game. How convenient.

Contrary to popular belief, TAKE MARTH TO BATTLEFIELD. It may be his best stage, yet it doesn't work well against Sonic. If I'm not mistaken, marths game on battlefield revolves on his zoning, and taking control of the plaforms. That doesn't work well against a blue hedgehog running around all over the place. Furthermore, battlefield forces marth to be above you in many situations, in which case you pwn.

Don't try to fight against marth in the air. You will fail. Short hopped fairs are fine here and there, as are wellspaced bairs(they will beat out/clang with his fair). Just spring away as quickly as you can, and be smart about getting back on the ground.

If marth puts up an fair wall you don't seem to be able to get past, use a well timed hyphen smash(invincy frames), or shieldgrab. Sonic slide far enough from a run to be able to shield an fair and still be able to grab marth.

Blah. I see no reason for a significant marth advantage.
 

Jim Morrison

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I am so stumped on Wario. I never fought a real one. Marth is 60:40 to me BTW, DI up and spam Spring should be your best hope. Or perhaps DI towards and pray he passes you by <_<

I wanna see if Grab Release up-angled F-smash works. Oh ya, Sonic has some crazy infinity which KID said once, but it's ridiculous to pull off. Or it might not even work <_<.

EDIT:
Wario ****![/SIZE]

So a little while back, the peaches decided to join the ranks of yoshi, ganon, ZSS, and D3 in the ever expanding number of characters that can do some thing gay to wario out of his Grab Release (GR). If you missed the epicness, heres the demo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c0I-ybNEwI

and if that wasnt **** enough, that GR combo can lead into this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sTCS7knCM

So, thats pretty win. Now I thought of how I could apply this to sonic. And heres what I cam up with.

If you air release wario, you can jump up and footstool him into an untechable landing. And at that point you can either immediately down air (a la KID AT #2), or pull a basic spring to down air TO INITIATE A JAB LOCK.

So yea, sonic has a 100% effective, non damage dependant jab combo setup on Wario, that when perfected, will always lead into a forward smash.

Credit for this technique goes out to GodismyRock and Praxis for inspiration, and Gf2tw, for being the only person in the Steak Break Room epic and beast enough to test and confirm this for me.

*** Let it be noted that Malcom has stated that when played correctly, its INCREDIBLY difficult to land a grab on wario. So this doesnt turn into an auto win for us. However, being the fastest character in the game, I think we can sneak 1 or 2 grabs in on wario, and i think that once this is properly implemented, Wario will not be on the "this character ***** sonic" list anymore for a lot of sonics.
Yah, this is the one. This might be useful at some point. As stated, incredibly hard to grab, but still possible. Also, F-smash has supah armur.
 

Tenki

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I thought if you weren't pummeling it leads to an air release. Or do you have control over whether you ground release or air release?
The only way to get a guaranteed air release is to grab him over the edge, like when he's recovering or something.


You can get a guaranteed groundrelease if you perfectly buffer Sonic's pummel.


Otherwise, if you're not pummelling and the opponent happens to be holding up/jump (or something like that) during the escape moment, then they airescape.
 

Espy Rose

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The only way to get a guaranteed air release is to grab him over the edge, like when he's recovering or something.


You can get a guaranteed groundrelease if you perfectly buffer Sonic's pummel.


Otherwise, if you're not pummelling and the opponent happens to be holding up/jump (or something like that) during the escape moment, then they airescape.
Care to explain this in as much detail as possible?
 

Boxob.

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Care to explain this in as much detail as possible?
It's unrealistic.

Basically, you 'time' (it's practically impossible to do this precisely) Sonic's pummel so that it happens as Wario would be released, forcing him into the air because Sonic holds him up a little bit when he does the pummel.

Yeah.

:093:
 

infomon

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No Boxob, the pummel guarantees a ground-release...... ie. Sonic can't force an air-release unless Wario's hanging over the edge. However Wario might mess up by using Jump input to break out, which would air-release. Unless Tenki and I are crazy-misteaken?
 

Browny

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@ boxob no thats not it lol...
You can never get an air release on wario if you grab him over the ground and wario tries not to jump out. and sonic can always force a ground release, ive never had anyone air escape sonics grab as long as im mashing A as fast at possible.
 

da K.I.D.

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youre not supposed to mash the pummel button

ive tested it and you pummel much much faster if you find the rhythem at which your character pummels and hit a in that rhythem.

also, if you are the person being grabbed, and you arent being pummeld, you have full control over whether you air or ground release, its just that most people arent smart enough to know how
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
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No Boxob, the pummel guarantees a ground-release...... ie. Sonic can't force an air-release unless Wario's hanging over the edge. However Wario might mess up by using Jump input to break out, which would air-release. Unless Tenki and I are crazy-misteaken?
You are correct. Also, still writing my paper, so I can't do this one XD
 

DMG

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We can just DI the footstool behind Sonic, giving us enough time to roll or get up or whatever we choose before he can reach us with a jab. In the other scenario, we can DI the footstool and then SDI the spring too.

Sonic cannot force Wario to airbreak on even ground. In the middle of FD for example, there's no way Sonic can make Wario break to the air. What he can do is pummel and force a ground break, but that's not useful at all lol. Wario can airbreak if his last input before he breaks was jump or up on the Control Stick (I don't know for sure whether tap jump off affects this a bit or not, I think someone said even with Tap Jump off that pressing up on the control stick will make your character jump break), AND if Sonic is not in the act of pummeling him since characters always break to the ground if they are being pummeled.

The infinite... I think Wario has to have both of his jumps gone, and you have to have him over the edge. In practice, this situation is very uncommon. Sure, you might catch Wario over the edge once in 3 matches, but what are the odds that both of his jumps are gone?
 

Tenki

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[1] We can just DI the footstool behind Sonic, giving us enough time to roll or get up or whatever we choose before he can reach us with a jab. In the other scenario, we can DI the footstool and then SDI the spring too.

[2] Sonic cannot force Wario to airbreak on even ground. In the middle of FD for example, there's no way Sonic can make Wario break to the air. What he can do is pummel and force a ground break, but that's not useful at all lol. Wario can airbreak if his last input before he breaks was jump or up on the Control Stick (I don't know for sure whether tap jump off affects this a bit or not, I think someone said even with Tap Jump off that pressing up on the control stick will make your character jump break), AND if Sonic is not in the act of pummeling him since characters always break to the ground if they are being pummeled.

[3] The infinite... I think Wario has to have both of his jumps gone, and you have to have him over the edge. In practice, this situation is very uncommon. Sure, you might catch Wario over the edge once in 3 matches, but what are the odds that both of his jumps are gone?

[1] Which thing are you referring to in the first part?
It almost sounds like you're talking about the footstool > spring > jablock setup lol, and if you are, then if the spring and setup is performed right, you can't get up as long as the spring hits you.

[2] Yeah, I'm mostly sure that tap jump makes no difference, as long as it's [up] or [jump].

[3] yap.
I don't think the infinite is really relevant in this matchup. Sonic gets a free F-smash, F-air, and a few other stuff from an air release. :bee:
 

DMG

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[1] Which thing are you referring to in the first part?
It almost sounds like you're talking about the footstool > spring > jablock setup lol, and if you are, then if the spring and setup is performed right, you can't get up as long as the spring hits you.

[2] Yeah, I'm mostly sure that tap jump makes no difference, as long as it's [up] or [jump].

[3] yap.
I don't think the infinite is really relevant in this matchup. Sonic gets a free F-smash, F-air, and a few other stuff from an air release. :bee:
1. I was talking about both the footstool to dair and the footstool to Spring to Dair to Jab lock. We can DI the footstool so that the Dair misses and for the second one if we DI the footstool obviously you have to predict which way we will DI or else we might get enough time to roll before the spring would hit us. After that, we could SDI the spring to get as far away from Sonic as possible while he is using Dair quickly to get to the ground, and by the time it takes him to get into position to jab Wario I think he should have enough time to move. I've not tested it very in depth, but I am sure Fiction has. We've done a lot of testing on various air release to footstool combo's/locks on Wario.

2. Yeah I thought so. Wasn't 100% sure.

3. Fsmash, Bair, and Uair look like the best bets. Uair from the edge might look a little weird though.
 

da K.I.D.

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i want the footstool to dair to miss you, cause that way, i get to the ground before you do, and thus can finish my lag and turn around and jab before you can get up
 

Tenki

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1. I was talking about both the footstool to dair and the footstool to Spring to Dair to Jab lock. We can DI the footstool so that the Dair misses and for the second one if we DI the footstool obviously you have to predict which way we will DI or else we might get enough time to roll before the spring would hit us. After that, we could SDI the spring to get as far away from Sonic as possible while he is using Dair quickly to get to the ground, and by the time it takes him to get into position to jab Wario I think he should have enough time to move. I've not tested it very in depth, but I am sure Fiction has. We've done a lot of testing on various air release to footstool combo's/locks on Wario.
Oh, your main concern was an air release -> footstool?

Sonic can also do the spring>jablock setup from hitting you with side-B under (around) 35%, and it's generally lower and harder to DI away from.

though, I wonder if we can get an air-release > SH/FH side-B
--------
or (to sonic mains):
air release > reverse VSDJ > B-air
 

Mickey69

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even tho I lost to a wario by him stallin the last 2 matches I whooped his *** by doing nothin but bairs...I dont blame him for stallin lol
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I like to Egg Roll in this matchup because it makes me feel like I'm a blue hedgehog, LOL!
 

Kinzer

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Not even a couple of minutes in and this is what happens...

...

*Ahem*.

Cool, it's about time too, I wanted to go over this for a while, to see out there who thinks how we got 6:4 in the first place, because if we're going to do something we get it right or we don't do it at all.

So yeah I think it's an even matchup.

Discuss.

Okay here we go.

Yoshi either has the most aerial acceleration in the game or the best aerial top spee, I'm not exactly sure which is it but I know it's one of them, and regardless of which Yoshi is still quite the speed-demon in the air. However from what I see a lot more of his tricks are on foot. What with the Grab-release shenanigans and all that jazz.

Let's start with basics, since I doubt anybody knows both Yoshi and Sonic extensively (they're both quite the technical characters):

YAY Physics! So this is how it goes down, Yoshi has a tether-like grab; Punishable if whiffed, if otherwise this is how it goes down. Since I hear some stuff about grab-release and all that shizz, the formula to break free via air or ground depends on whether the character grabbed (in this case Sonic) touches the ground with his feet or not. Since Yoshi technically swallows opponents whole, you can only air-break when being released because you're inside Yoshi and of course there's no way your feet can possible be touching the ground in that case. However you can still break free via ground-release if you happen to break free and Yoshi is pummeling (or rather chewing on you I think).

Now I'm not aware of anything Yoshi can do to Sonic after any grab-break, but there are 3 reasons for that.

1. I don't play nor pay attention to what Yoshi does.

2. I have very little actual matchup experience (yes, I'm using theorycraft here, deal with it).

3. If I did have that shizz happen to me, I just react like I'm in a seizure and see if anything works... mainly my first thought of action is use to Spring so I cannot get followed up with anything.

Next, Yoshi's pivot-grab is a little bit more unpinishable than his normal grab... better get used to it since we're assuming here your opponent can use Yoshi at the top of his meta-game, meaning they can do stuff like Draconic Reverse/retreating grabs to speed up his grab and act much faster.

Grab-releases out of the way, let's look at what else is in store.

Yoshi's Nair acts like a C-C-C-Combo breaker, but I suppose you need not to worry about it if you space your aerials right... probably easier said than done, remember Yoshi is quite the aerobic creature.

Bair is quite disjointed and lasts for a while... can be ACed IIRC.

Then we have Uair... it kills...

You shouldn't worry about his Dair/Fair since they have considerable lag/are easily read, outspaced and outsped by Uair/Bair. I suggest you not try to pursuit Yoshi in the air any further than SH height, just spam SH Uairs.

Okay, specials!

Egg Toss... it will probably force you to approach Yoshi, but it's not so bad since Sonic can just put up his shield from running... in fact you're so fast you shouldn't really have to worry about this too much, just know that Yoshi can throw his Eggs wherever he feels like, so don't end up running right into them whe you tried to avoid them... -_-

How often would you get caught in Yoshi's Neutral-B and transformed into an egg... really...? All I know is that if Yoshi can read you out of breaking out of the shell, you can die... or you can get damage racked up on you depending on how long you are encased in the egg.

Yoshi Bomb is defenitely something to look out for... it works like the Bowser bomb that if done from the ground you will be put right into the path of the next part which is considerably strong. It has some after lag, but usually his sides will be defended, so you will have to punish him from the air. Don't get predictable in your approaches.

Egg roll... hrm... it's lulzy, but I think it works like Sonic's SDR where it will either get beat out with enough priority, or it will knock you out of some stuff, or clank. If you try to beat it with SDR, the result is luckily you will get hit out of it since he will have his fresh (if he even bothers to use it).

Then we have standard attacks.

His UTilt works like Sonic's... I think... just how vertically disjointed is it?

FTilt can go a little ways, it'll probably push you away if he times it right, or clanks if you were SDRing at him... Not too much window of opportunity for him to mistime it and suffer dead-frames AFAIK. Jab does the same thing as his FTilt, but it being so fast it will clank and then just hit you out.

Fighting Yoshi is like fighting R.O.B., just get close enough where you can't be punished, but if he does anything you will have enough time to punish if you're on your toes. Yoshi's shield is not exactly the best, sure you can't shieldpoke it, but IIRC he cannot react OoS like say Marth can or something. I wonder if he has a different timing for PSing too, if they want to be that crucial in shaving off shield lag...

You won't be gimping Yoshi BTW, he can just airdodge through most if not all of his 2nd jump, so just read his recovery path and wait for him to punish there.

Go for "flat" stages, so that you can find ways around Yoshi and attack.

That's all I can come up with... for now.
 
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