Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Zephramrill]

LOL no Uair doesnt beta Ivys Dair, or an if he DIs to the side his bair (or an airdodge LOL)

Steeler, FD isnt bad for Pokeymanz, but it doesnt help them very much if at all and it helps sonic a lot so hence it's a bad stage in that sense.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic doesnt gain any rediculous advantages on any stage, he can do well just about anywhere, so we end up having to CP our opponents worst stage. because our best stage which is either Corneria or GG, isnt as much a boon to us as CPing frigate would be a detriment to you

p.s. a spaced up air can beat just about any down air in the game

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I like Delfino. It shifts alot giving our flexibility a lot to work with and with our HAX upB we'll almost never get left behind. Furthermore other characters DO get screwed over and anybody that can abuse it can rarely abuse anything long enough to **** us over except Pikachu and his versatility is un****ingfair.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ill drop a duce on that stupid rat...

are we talking about charizard now?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't like when people saying FD is good for Sonic "just because it gives him room to run around." It has more reason that I can't think of. Probably that it's a big stage and Sonic can recovery from almost anywhere with a second jump

There's also the lack of platforms since platforms USUALLY hurt Sonic. The edges are great for stage spikes. We can dair offstage with little fear of death and yes. We can run around.

 

[Bestiarius]

If you shield Ivy's fsmash, good for you, but dtilt is a great move for poking and the tips of the vines have good knockback. Plus, if you run at an Ivy and dash attack, if Ivy shields or spotdodges, say hello to Bullet Seed and at least 20%. At the very least. Plus, Ivy can spam Razor Leaf. Not advisable but possible. Ivy just has so much better range than Sonic. I'd say at least 60-40 in Ivy's favor. I just know I'd hate to be a Sonic main and have to fight a good Ivysaur.

 

[Zephramrill]

Bestiarius shutup lol Sonic and Ivy is like 50-50, Ivy has to be on sonics **** the whole time and if sonic connects with a solid bair or two offstage then ivy is ****ed. Bullet Seed will not do more than 28% to Sonic. (Kinzer DId and Springed out everytime before hitting 30%) Ivy cant spam RL in this matchup unless youre on battlefeild.

IMO heres the matchup. Start as Charizard and stay as him for the entire first life. Sonic will not kill you until probably about 160-170 (yesterday Kinzer never killed my char below 200 but WFC is WFC) and u can get a nice early kill on him thanks to your awesome kill moves and great damage racking ability. Then when you are fatigued just camp flamethrower and rocksmash and a tipper fsmash will still kill at like 110.

Squirtle vs Sonic is like 55:45 Squirtle so thats alright but if the sonic is good he will be running around as much as you and you will trade hits. Try switch to ivy when youre around 80 percent so that gimping ivy becomes harder (good DI can usually get u back to the stage alone if u get hit by an fsmash that way) and so that u have fresh ivy kill moves. If Sonic doesnt gimp ivy (Kinzer didnt gimp me once in like 9 matches) then Ivy should live until about 130-150 minimum.

So basically you want to be using all charizard on your first and third stocks because charizard literally ***** sonic in every way imaginable. they cant use any B moves lest they ve flamethrowered in the face, dair isnt an option because of rocksmas so they have to hit and run and char can just shieldcamp and use his epic grab game.

A good sonic will **** your char if you are stupid. Do not let Sonic have free reign, the second Sonic loses stage control he becomes one of the worst chcarcters in the game, but with stage control he is a force to be reckoned with.

Summary:

Ivy 50 : Sonic 50
Squirtle 55: Sonic 45
Charizard 65: Sonic 35

Overall PT 60: Sonic 40

 

[ROOOOY!]

Summary:

Ivy 50 : Sonic 50 We really shouldn't base this on wi-fi. On wi-fi I'd agree with that, but IRL feck no.
Squirtle 55: Sonic 45 Okay, I agree with this one.
Charizard 65: Sonic 35 I just threw up

I'm interested as to why Charizard is 65:35, because to me that's absolutely ridiculous. I've read everything, and the only thing I've picked up on is that Kinzer kept Homing Attacking into your Flamethrower.

Bad times. Good Sonic's don't Homing Attack.

<3 Kinzer

To me, Charizard and Sonic is a classic 50:50. Sonic can't kill quickly, but Charizard's game here is to space as well as possible, which is difficult against a Sonic not on wi-fi who knows what he's doing. Once Charizard gets pressured, he doesn't have any quick GTFO options and really struggles.

Same with Ivysaur, except his projectiles are pretty ineffectual against Sonic (spinshotting over Razor Leaf, but spacing so you don't end up on top of Ivy) and such. However, even though Ivy tries to control the game with ranged moves in the same way Charizard does, he's in a lot more danger. The cooldown lag on a fair few attacks is way too punishable, and as soon as he's offstage, if the Sonic has a brain, Ivy's dead.

Yes, I have played PT's. In person too, so there's none of that running into Charizard's Rock Smash BS. I see Ivy as a 55:45/60:40 advantage, the former at the least.

Squirtle is definately 45:55.

Charizard is 50:50.

In total PT is 50:50.

 

[Bestiarius]

Zephramrill, I can see your point, but I still think Ivy has a solid advantage. And I said Razor Leaf COULD be spammed, but SHOULD NOT be spammed. Plus, I play on Battlefield all the time, so I guess I kinda have a Battlefield mentality. I think that Ivy can basically set up a wall and Sonic can't get through if the PT isn't clueless. I will agree with you Zard points, though.
ROOOOY!, you might have played PT's, but that doesn't mean they were any good. I just can't see how your plan to get past Razor Leaf would do anything. "Get closer, but not close" is basically what it sounds like your saying when you say to spin dash over but not to the point where you're on top of Ivy. Ivy can still outrange you with jab and f-tilt. Jump over these? Vine Whip. Ivy is problematic for Sonic.

 

[Boxob.]

Ivy's attacks are slow, slow enough for us to punish. Do a move that isn't jab, and we're on your **** hardcore. Once pressured, Ivy doesn't have too many options to get us off. All we really have to do it look out for Bullet seed.

Spamming RL is dumb, you're an idiot for trying it.

Ivy's about average falling speed means tech chasing off of Dthrow will **** your face off.

I say it's 40:60, Sonic's favor.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I played a good PT, don't worry.

Boxy, true dat, Ivysaur's the easiest out of the three.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ivysaur does cause some trouble to sonic.. he has the range to keep sonic away and stay safe almost all the match long..
Ivy's dtilt is very well ranged, fast and finishes quickly, i dont see any sonic punishing it, and it stops sonics ground approaches ( its a dtilt after all, sonic may fear it, and its also very good ranged and disjointed)... i dont think that sonic has any reliable answer to ivys dtilt (jumping gets you vinewhipped or naired)
Ivys bair is not all about the range, its also speed, it has very little ending lag, so ivy can follow up with any attack, so stuff like pivot grab and bullet seed will get you in trouble
Also, sonics range is not that good, so you have to be on ivys face all the time if you wanna hit her, that lets you very vulnerable to bullet seed

 

[Zephramrill]

Ok heres why Charizard is better than Sonic.
He has 9 kill moves and all will kill you before 130.
Sonic has 3 kill moves and only fsmash can kill Char before 160.

1 rock smash basically puts sonic into kill percentage.

Chars grab range exceeds D3, is quicker and he has an amazing pummel, not to mention a grab release into dtilt if you dont react in the 3-7 frames you have.

Sonic has no range, and Char can grab from anywhere.

Chars fair can gimp sonic, his dair spike could gimp sonic, and tipper bair or nair will kill sonic offstage at around 100. fair will kill offstage at around 80 if u DI decently.

You cant just run around and attack from the side because of flamethrower, frame 5 rocksmash, or chars amazing jab combo. You cant approach from above because his uptilt and smash both **** and have a great range. Sonic doesnt have good shieldpokes and char has an awesome shield and the best non-tether grab range in the game. Charizard doesnt even ever have to move really and the match will be 50:50. Now when char gets aggressive you'll realize why sonic is in a toughy. He has insanely fast moves for their strength, and his runspeed is enough where sonic cant just run around everywhere. GL gimping a char with a solid recovery, and gl killing one of the heavier chars in the game.

Fatigue? lol Charizard doesnt get fatigued he has like 12 viable killing options and at least 6 that are easy to land. If he gets desperate he just grabs u and throws u and switches to squirtle for the dthrow kill.

You sonic guys need to understand that Sonic doesnt have a decent matchup on everybody, us PT's admit it, dunno why every sonic matchup i see has half the sonics claiming neutral or better for sonic minus like GaW and MK...

 

[Steeler]

ivy does the "worst" here in this matchup, which really isn't that bad. squirtle and charizard are noticeably better imo, but it may be because my ivysaur is not as good as the others. i agree with 45:55 or 40:60, because defensively, ivysaur has the tools to punish sonic's most common approach tactic. this is a little risky though because sonic can punish the mistakes so well. BUT, ivy can be aggressive too, where ivysaur has nair, bair, and bullet seed to pressure well (particularly nair). all of which come out around frame 4. so yeah, ivy has some GTFO moves to use when necessary. ivy doesn't HAVE to play slow with spacing, he can also be aggressive with lots of nair setups. sonic has a solid advantage off stage. both characters have pretty similar KO potential imo. sonic's fsmash comes out just as fast as ivy's does, with less range. so shouldn't the note about avoiding ivy's fsmash and living a long time work against sonic as well? ivy's throws kill a bit better, which are a huge boon if ivy wants to just switch.

charizard isn't completely ***** when he gets pressured. the only real danger zone is below him. otherwise, his fair, uair, bair, and nair all come out in 6-9 frames. rock smash comes out in less than 5 frames and making contact with an attack before zard headbutts will detonate the rock and deal huge damage. zard also has super armor on fly. the only huge problem is below him because the dair is so slow. similar to rob's predicament. charizard, however, has faster movement in the air, both horizontal and fall speed. naturally, charizard won't want sonic to have the momentum but charizard isn't totally helpless there either. but, regardless, let's say sonic totally ***** charizard and can usually rack up 40% at low percent from some chain of aerials. charizard can eeeeeasily make up for that with huge damage output from rock smash and flamethrower. i mean, charizard has both big damage output to make your stock shorter aaaaaaand is heavy enough to be a huge bother to KO for someone like sonic.

i'm not totally convinced that squirtle isn't at least dead even or better. what exactly does sonic have on squirtle here? up close squirtle can pressure as well as or better than sonic can. from about 80% onward, squirtle can dthrow and switch even if it doesn't kill so that ivy's fresh attacks can come in and either kill or just switch to zard, who has tons of KO options and can tank a stock like a mofo against sonic. by himself, it seems like squirtle is pretty weaksauce, but using him to rack up damage and then switch out before KO's become a problem is a pretty solid strategy. as soon as you hit 80-100%, squirtle can switch out by just getting a grab. fatigue isn't a huge issue here. plus, with how quick squirtle is, sonic is NOT going to have many opportunities to punish mistakes on squirtle's part (which i've seen mentioned as sonic's main trade) because squirtle's attacks have very very little lag on start up and cool down. head to head, i can't see sonic doing as well as squirtle does. fatigue is manageable and shouldn't be an issue because ivysaur isn't a horrid matchup. sonic's fsmash is just as avoidable for squirtle as ivysaur's is avoidable for sonic.

what options does sonic have for KO's? fsmash, bair, and uair?

i'm terribly sorry if i repeat myself or don't make sense at points, i made this over the span of an hour as i did other stuff

but i agree on the general sentiment that ivy's the easiest matchup for sonic.

edit @ zeph sonic has solid range on his ftilt, dsmash, fair, and uair. and spin dash stuff increases his range by quite a bit, in a way.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

We.....don't? I think we have most of the matches so far listed as disadvantage.

 

[Napilopez]

Hmm, who said squirtle was an advantage for Sonic?(not a rhetorical question, just asking =P) I see it being as 55:45 Squirtle. Ivy is likewise 45:55 Sonic. Char is 50:50. Basically exactly wat ROOOOY said =P

Squirtle is small with very erratic movement, something Sonic usually has trouble with(see: wario). Ivy is still safely gimptastic for Sonic, and his attacks don't give us much trouble. Charizard is combomania for us, but his ease to kill us is undeniable (although Sonic's momentum cancelling is really good and can survive to really high percentages with proper DI as a result).

One thing I think people often forget when discussing matchups with Sonic is that Sonic doesn't usually kill from the middle of FD. I would say most of his kills come from either off stage, near the edges, or vertical KOs, which is why I would say most good Sonic's usually KO before 150. You may say this about other chars, but I think it applies more to Sonic than t does to most of the other chars in the game. Because of Sonic's speed, he usually isn't going to wait around in the middle of the stage to kill you, he's going to chase you as you approach the side of the stage or are offstage, so I really don't see many chars surviving to super high percents against him.

So yea, I see overall a 50:50 matchup here.

 

[Zephramrill]

Charizard isnt combomania for you though :S His nair and fair are just as quick as anything Sonic has to offer, and the rock from rocksmash comes out on frame 5 meaning it will work as a counter if sonic hits the rock. chars dair ***** Sonics uair (playing yesterday the two met many times and Char was always the victor.) Sorry guys Char has better damage output, camps better (necessity in brawl), kills earlier, and lives forever. No PT will settle for less than a 60:40 for char

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ok heres why Charizard is better than Sonic.

Better than =/= advantage. ROB is better than Mario, but is still at a disadvantage in said match-up.

He has 9 kill moves and all will kill you before 130.
Sonic has 3 kill moves and only fsmash can kill Char before 160.

9? I'm guessing that counts unfeasible things like fsmash. Meh. Where do people pull these numbers like 160% from? A bair offstage should never be killing at over 150%, even staled.
Granted however that Sonic has trouble killing Charizard.

1 rock smash basically puts sonic into kill percentage.

The ****? And a dtilt 0HKO's Metaknight, right?

Chars grab range exceeds D3, is quicker and he has an amazing pummel, not to mention a grab release into dtilt if you dont react in the 3-7 frames you have.

3-7 frames? All of Sonic's A attacks other then his smashes and dair come out in less than 7 frames =_=

Sonic has no range, and Char can grab from anywhere.

Anywhere, now? That's just silly. And Sonic has plenty of disjointed moves, please don't listen to OS/most SBR's when they talk about Sonic lol.

Chars fair can gimp sonic, his dair spike could gimp sonic, and tipper bair or nair will kill sonic offstage at around 100. fair will kill offstage at around 80 if u DI decently.

????
Sonic's heavier then Jigglypuff y'know.
And Sonic has the safest recovery in the game, behind probably Metaknight. If we're talking about high level play, which we should be, a high level Sonic should never get gimped, he has way too many options getting back to the stage, not just the Spring.

You cant just run around and attack from the side because of flamethrower, frame 5 rocksmash, or chars amazing jab combo. You cant approach from above because his uptilt and smash both **** and have a great range. Sonic doesnt have good shieldpokes and char has an awesome shield and the best non-tether grab range in the game. Charizard doesnt even ever have to move really and the match will be 50:50. Now when char gets aggressive you'll realize why sonic is in a toughy.

No. No. No. Charizard should not be aggressive in this match. What the ****, dude? NO character should be aggressive against Sonic. You're supposed to play patiently against one, and defensively. I'm...not sure you've ever played a Sonic :\

He has insanely fast moves for their strength, and his runspeed is enough where sonic cant just run around everywhere. GL gimping a char with a solid recovery, and gl killing one of the heavier chars in the game.

LMAO. You're talking about Sonic not gimping Charizard, and Charizard gimping Sonic before. Epic, epic fail. Sonic is one of the safest characters offstage. Gimping Charizard is possible, not easy though.

Fatigue? lol Charizard doesnt get fatigued he has like 12 viable killing options and at least 6 that are easy to land. If he gets desperate he just grabs u and throws u and switches to squirtle for the dthrow kill.

Agreed. However, 12 viable kill moves seems an exaggeration.

You sonic guys need to understand that Sonic doesnt have a decent matchup on everybody, us PT's admit it, dunno why every sonic matchup i see has half the sonics claiming neutral or better for sonic minus like GaW and MK...

Dude, check the chart. They're mostly reds for ****s sake. We're not gonna cave in and wrongly assign a disadvantage just because a few PT mains can't handle a discussion, rather then throwing empty generalities around.


The way people are talking it's as though Sonic is going to Spindash into EVERY SINGLE Flamethrower, and of course that's not gonna happen. All of Sonic's approaches are cancellable. A Sonic should be getting hit by Flamethrower no more then once a stock, twice at a push. If you throw out a Flamethrower when we're charging Spindash, we can just shield cancel it, or punish the ending lag on Flamethrower with a spinshotted bair. (spinshot is where Sonic arcs through the air by timing a jump out of Spindash at just below running speed, can be attacked out of.)

 

[Steeler]

ftilt, dtilt, utilt, usmash, dsmash, fair, bair, dair, rock smash, fly, some kinda throw. i can think of 11, dsmash is a stretch because of the startup lag though. same with dair. the others all come out in about 10 frames or less though.

doesn't matter, point is there's lots of options

 

[da K.I.D.]

this guy obviously hasnt played against a sonic since april.

Ok heres why Charizard is better than Sonic.
He has 9 kill moves and all will kill you before 130.
Sonic has 3 kill moves and only fsmash can kill Char before 160.
lol no kill moves
1 rock smash basically puts sonic into kill percentage.
lol no weight.
just so we are clear, this is where i started skimming sentances.

Chars grab range exceeds D3, is quicker and he has an amazing pummel, not to mention a grab release into dtilt if you dont react in the 3-7 frames you have.
if only we had invincibility on an under 5 frame up b... if only...

Sonic has no range, and Char can grab from anywhere.
lol no range.
and this is where i just stopped reading and skipped to the last sentance.

Chars fair can gimp sonic, his dair spike could gimp sonic, and tipper bair or nair will kill sonic offstage at around 100. fair will kill offstage at around 80 if u DI decently.
lol no recovery? i dont think ive heard that one before...

You cant just run around and attack from the side because of flamethrower, frame 5 rocksmash, or chars amazing jab combo. You cant approach from above because his uptilt and smash both **** and have a great range. Sonic doesnt have good shieldpokes and char has an awesome shield and the best non-tether grab range in the game. Charizard doesnt even ever have to move really and the match will be 50:50. Now when char gets aggressive you'll realize why sonic is in a toughy. He has insanely fast moves for their strength, and his runspeed is enough where sonic cant just run around everywhere. GL gimping a char with a solid recovery, and gl killing one of the heavier chars in the game.
sounds like a little more lol no priority. lol no kill moves here...

Fatigue? lol Charizard doesnt get fatigued he has like 12 viable killing options and at least 6 that are easy to land. If he gets desperate he just grabs u and throws u and switches to squirtle for the dthrow kill.
this is called overhyping your character. Sonic players have been trained for about 5 months not to do that.

You sonic guys need to understand that Sonic doesnt have a decent matchup on everybody, us PT's admit it, dunno why every sonic matchup i see has half the sonics claiming neutral or better for sonic minus like GaW and MK...

lol. sonic has a winnable match on everybody. not advantaged. as a majority, we usually call matches 50-50 or worse. go to the first post nitwit, how can you say that we think we always have an advantage, when the only character weve gone over so far that we have an advantage on is ganon, and hes being voted for worst in the game...
we dont even think we have an advantage on Captain Falcon... this shows how much you are wiling to assume, and assumptions have no place here.

ill just say a few things about a character that I actually know.
Sonic is probably in the lower end of the top 5 recoverys in the game. you wont be gimping him.
sonic is a short character, so obviously he wont have too much range, but you WILL be surprised at how far beyond his graphics his hitboxes extend.

also, there is nothing stopping sonic from just taking advantage of his damage racking abilities and intentionally getting your character above 200 for an up throw kill. as long as im not getting hit, ill damage rack as much as i need to for you to die, not having kill moves isnt so big a deal if you are good at not getting hit.

not to mention that it is possible for sonic to camp any of the pokemon and wait until they get weak to fight him.

also this is a serious question.
did you just say you could gimp sonic with charizards f-air?
the one that doesnt flinch from max range?

Sonic is about an average shield poker. and the fact that Char is so big means that there will be times where your shield will get eaten for breakfast, sonic is good at eating shields from big characters.

also you say that char is fast for his size, but that doesnt change the fact that sonic is still faster than him when it comes to putting out hitboxes, so his quickness to weight ratio doesnt really have any bearing if sonic is still quicker.

anyway ill stop here cause i dont know much on charizard other than the fact that he is ASC bait, but i couldnt let such horrible misconceptions not be corrected.

 

[Steeler]

Sonic from djbrowny
Jab - 3

Forward Tilt - 6
Down Tilt - 6
Up Tilt 7
Dash Attack - 4

Forward Smash- 17
Down Smash- 16
Up Smash - 17

Neutral Air- 5
Forward Air - 4
Down Air- 16
Back Air - 13
Up Air- 5

Homing Attack - 24

Charizard
Jab: 4

Forward Tilt: 12
Up Tilt: 9
Down Tilt: 8
Dash Attack: 10

Up Smash: 5
Down Smash: 14
Forward Smash: 22

Forward B: 24 (this is the actual headbutt that crushes the rock. the rock itself is out about 20 frames before that)
Neutral B: 20
Down B: ???
Up B: 9

Forward Air: 9
Back Air: 7
Down Air: 18
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 8

sonic really isn't that much faster. ignore move by move comparisons and look at the functionality behind them. for example, zard's ftilt works like ike's ftilt, zard's dtilt, on the other hand, is a very solid spacer with good range, speed, and KO potential. zard's grab is not listed but is not a tether grab so it isn't laggy by any means. it and jab are charizard's most solid ground GTFO moves. rock smash's rock comes out about the same time as sonic's fair, which makes it a great answer to sonic when he's in the air in front of zard. etc etc. charizard isn't "dominated" when it comes to putting hitboxes out. just beat by a small margin. which is important when charizard, on average, should do more damage per hit than sonic does.

charizard's not as slow as, say, zelda.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ok ill give you that, but there have been many a time where im standing just out side of Chars range and than i just run and f air, and the char tries to rocksmash counter me, and the run speed combined with the movespeed lets me hit the rock out of chars hands.

 

[Steeler]

hmmmmmm that's interesting KID. might have something to do with fair's properties, or with the timing of rock smash.

 

[ROOOOY!]

As far as I know, fair is a little bit disjointed in front of Sonic, that could have something to do with it.

 

[Boxob.]

I think it's just that Charmeleon should have been the second evolved, that would have been cool.

Venasaur as playable would make me lol.

Maybe Trainer wouldn't suck so bad.

 

[Steeler]

venusaur would be the ****tiest brawl character ever

dammit guys stop picking apart zeph's bad post and pay attention to mine ):

also what does charizard being ASC bait mean? i assume it's because he's big but what would that mean?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Not as bad as Sonic.

:>

I think chaining fairs would be pretty good on Charizard. 14%, 4 frame start up, disjoint, autocancels on landing for chaining. Charizard's jab isn't particularly a "GTFO OUT OF MY FACE D;" move, so I feel he may be pretty susceptable to it. What say people?

 

[Boxob.]

venusaur would be the ****tiest brawl character ever

dammit guys stop picking apart zeph's bad post and pay attention to mine ):

also what does charizard being ASC bait mean? i assume it's because he's big but what would that mean?

Cause he's big.

Triple hit ASC combo's are easy mode on Char.

 

[Steeler]

no no, zard's jab is a GTFO move. good hitbox and jab cancels into stuff. but once you get one fair in, zard will probably have to resort to hoping rock smash's hitbox works out or fly super armor. or spamming air dodge and good DI.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea basically...

and ASC...

i dont feel like explaining how it works on heavys so im going to attempt to find a vid of it.
brb

airial down b
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJS4D-7d9tc
this sequence can be replecated on char pretty easily in the air or on the ground.
and it eats shields better than any other move sonic has

 

[Steeler]

interesting. just know that if you ASC into rock smash, you'll take like 45%. and that move ain't slow...

 

[Chis]

interesting. just know that if you ASC into rock smash, you'll take like 45%. and that move ain't slow...

You can shield cancel it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

true, and stopp responding so fast GD you.

but just know that if you are late with your rock smash we can shield cancel it upon landing, and possibly shield grab you after ward and if we cant grab theres like 4-6 other options we can use out of shield to punish it.

 

[Kinzer]

are we talking about charizard now?

Guys, we're still on Ivysaur... however, if you feel that we have covered everything on it, we can continue to talk about Charizard. I'll settle for 55:45 Sonic's favor on Ivysaur, seeing as how even the PT mains are saying this themselves, and I have no arguement. Ivysaur is all too easy to gimp... even if I didn't do it myself, but this is when we theorycraft about Sonic & Ivysaur being at the highest level of potential (I'm no better than some of the other Sonic's around here like K.I.D. or DJ for example, if you could fight them they'll give you more of a challenge). We've already gotten some points across so I'll save some internet and not repeat them.

I've read everything, and the only thing I've picked up on is that Kinzer kept Homing Attacking into your Flamethrower.

Bad times. Good Sonic's don't Homing Attack.

<3 Kinzer

I saw wat u did thar.

Sorry, but I'm just trying to be the rebel... representin' HA yo! I'll find a use to make this move moar usable, just you wait!

I say it's 40:60, Sonic's favor.

Rawr, I'll settle for a 55:45 advantage if everybody else wants to, you're the only person so far who has said that Sonic has a solid advantage on Ivysaur, but I'm not too sure on that.

Also I'm not taking out the Haunter.

Stuff.

Others have already covered you on this, but I guess I'll go on ahead and give mah 2 cents.

I'll give it to you though, Charizard has more kill moves and lives a lot longer, but continue reading please.

Rock Smash hurts, but it won't make Sonic get a bijillion % damage.

Don't listen to what the SBR has to say about Sonic, listen to us. We're telling you that Sonic has minimal priority at worst, but that's no problem thanks to our Speed. We also don't spam SpinDash liek we used to back in March/April.

If you ever discuss Sonic over at the PT boards, I'm gonig to tell you know you should play a patient/defensive/campy game, because we will only make your life miserable if we can read you like a book. Flamethrower is kind of laggy, nothing is stopping us from just waiting for you to let your FT die down/cancel and approach to fake you out. FT shouldn't be used too often with Sonic, he can get around just fine regardless. You'll be noticing we'll approach from teh air a lot, seeing as how most of our ground approaches can be stopped by whatever Charizard decides to use that has a decent horizontal hitbox for him. Then again, Sonic has decent moblity to not get grabbed like maybe more than 5 times a stock Vs. Charizard, and Sonic has decent shieldpokes... what with ASC (Aerial SpinCharge) into a SDJ (SpinDash Jump) into whatever Sonic wants to follow-up with if he happens to have knocked knocked you into the air.

Sonic is a about 10 times heavier than Jigglypuff, and just like you won't be gimping a good Meta Knight, Sonic isn't exactly limited in his rcovery either. Don't let those spikes you might've landed on me in Wi-Fi fool you. I probably got predictable/mispaced an UAir/didn't react right.

12 might be an exagguration, just how often do you think you'll be landing a Forward Smash on a Sonic? Not too often I'll tell you... I would settle for 7 solid kill moves at the most for Char. Let's not blow things out of proportion here now, I need to be as accurate and unbaised as I can to do a fair write-up. You wouldn't want me to go say that Squirtle is a lightweight character with no range/killpower now would you?

Err... look at the front page, all those Greys are either dead even or 5 ponits in their favor, we then have like 8+ matchups in our opponent's favor, and so far only 2 6:4 advantegeous matchups who happen to be Link and Ganondorf/C.Falcon. Let's get along now, we both play terribad characters.

Moar stuff.

Your points on Ivysaur and Charizard seem okay to me, so I won't argue them.

We need to do some Wi-Fi again Steeler, I don't think you've ever fought a good Sonic with Squirtle. Hit me up sometime, and we'll see what we can do. Still though, we need to talk about Squirtle on his own, and then talk about PT as a whole LATER.

Uair is just a move we use if you happen to be in the right place for a star K.O., it won't be killing you unless your like above 200% with Squirtle/Ivysaur, and I don't even want to think how long it could take to kill Charizard with that same thought. BTW DSmash is our 2nd best K.O. move.

DSmash is just a move to punish those who like to roll/spotdodge a lot, you won't be seeing as lot of it unless you're Ivysaur. I dunno about our rolls increasing our range (unless you mean Sonic's dash attack), but it does get him around.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Does ASC break through Rock Smash at full velocity?

That thing has crazy priority against grounded moves. Someone test, I can't right now as my bro is playing Kingdom Hearts on la TV D;

 

[Steeler]

well, i need to get a router and take my controller back before any wi-fi happens. napilopez can tell you how fail i am at connecting to wi-fi

thanks for the clarification on uair, i guess the word to describe it is "situational".

is dsmash's strength the same during the whole attack?

about the rolls, i was just kind of thinking about how it lets sonic pressure the opponent from further away than his normal moveset.

shield cancel the ASC and rock smash can take a huge chunk out of your shield, (i'm talking like 3/4 of it out of a perfect rock smash) and usually shieldpoke if your shield isn't at or near optimal health.

alright here's what i know of rock smash's priority through experience:

as you should all know because i keep repeating it like a drone...rock smash's actual rock comes out in just a handful of frames. charizard headbutts it at like frame 24. when he headbutts it, the rock breaks and causes a cluster**** of hitboxes to come out. if a hitbox makes contact with the rock before charizard headbutts, the hitbox will act like a charizard headbutt and cause all of the various hitboxes to come out. the rock is not a hurtbox of charizard's, so if your hitbox does not make contact with charizard's frame, nothing will happen to zard and you will take 30-45%. i've had a sonic spinroll/dash/whatever at me before, i rock smash just before he runs into me, the rock comes out nearly instantaneously (like, you don't even see the rock, it breaks apart as soon as i input the command since sonic is spinning), sonic takes 40%, and dies. the thing about rock smash against shields is that you cannot spot dodge through the whole thing because it lingers for a good while, and if you just take it like a man, your shield will take a varying amount of damage depending on your position. the closer you are to charizard (ie more inside of the rock), you will take more damage. at the tip of the boulder, you'll take some shield pushback for the "main" hitbox as charizard headbutts, and then the debris will come out that will likely hit you or your shield. afterward, there should be enough lag for sonic to run in and grab or something, cuz he's fast.

if your shield is like at least 1/4 depleted, you will almost always be shieldpoked and unable to punish the rock smash.

rock smash is a good move. still punishable, particularly for someone like sonic. but it's very dependent on spacing and your shield.

i hope i answered some questions?? i should be correct about most of the info above, but i haven't sat down and experimented exclusively with the move.

 

[Kinzer]

Rawr, DSmash gets weaker after the hitbox stays out for it's duration, and all you have to do is just shield the attack and we can't hit you with it again until the lag is over. Unless it's perfect shielded however, it has some pretty nice pushback on it, and will only leave like a couple of frames to punish.

But no seriously, let me show you mah Haunter Lag-Fi Sawnik, and Skwartul well actually have problems.

 

[Steeler]

i relaly do want to play you ): i'll give you a heads up on when i've got stuff figured out. it may be mcafee on my computer.

 

[Kinzer]

Quick update, I've decided to get this discussion moving on to Charizard.

Once that is done, we'll take like PT is one whole character/stratigy, and go from there.

Some of you have already went on ahead and went to Charizard, that's fine. Please continue to discuss any doubts you mgiht still have on the Sonic/Ivysaur matchup.

IIRC, the community has agreed to a neutral matchup for Squirtle, slighty in Sonic's favor to Ivysaur, and somewhere between slight advantage to solid counter for charizard.

 

[MrEh]

IIRC, the community has agreed to a neutral matchup for Squirtle, slighty in Sonic's favor to Ivysaur, and somewhere between slight advantage to solid counter for charizard.

I fear Charizard's Dtilt. There's no other attack in the game that causes you to get bitten in the balls. ><