Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[The Derrit]

for that reason I call it 50-50 since theres always a chance of sonic messing up and spring down airing into an up smash

or even you know, just getting hit. spindash's priority isn't amazing not that we're talking about ivy, buti 've hit sonics out of it with bulletseed popup. like the first 4 percent thing that does like nothing. it can be interrupted so its not as if you're never going to get hit spindashing

 

[Fearmy]

edit: nvm, someone got to the spin shot vid before me D:

 

[Chis]

I just remembered something.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203207

 

[Fearmy]

I just remembered something.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203207

lololol XDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

[King Funk]

I just remembered something.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203207

LOL agressive trolling... Sonic, boring character... No way!

 

[Steeler]

ummm let's see a sweetspotted dtilt and ftilt would probably kill at 130% in the middle of FD, and close to 100% near the edge of FD.

usmash about 120-130? utilt about 10% higher. rock smash fresh at like 120% in the middle, but it will probably not be fresh unless zard just switched in. 140% is a realistic expectation for it. for rock smash to kill though, it has to hit near the edge of the main boulder so the shards don't hit you.

sweetspotted bair will start killing around 140? at the middle of FD, and less than 100% offstage or close to the edge.

so yeah, that's like...at the middle of FD, zard can kill you at under 150% no problem

 

[Kinzer]

I'm inclined to say 55:45 Charizards favor and call PT a dead even matchup.

Charizard can live for freaking ever, has some nice kill moves, and with Sonic decent damage racking, however Sonic can rack up damage being faster and Charizard having a big hurtbox helps him, but Sonic is going to have to pick out his approaches or get hit out of them with Charizard. No good PT will be playing aggressive with Charizard when you play Sonic, and Sonic has below average killing power thansk to Charizard's stats.

P.S. if you try and edgegaurd our Spring with FT we just DI up/back and Spring out of that.

Does everybody agree with this:

5:5 Even matchup Sonic/Squirtle
55:45 Sonic's favor Sonic/Ivysaur
45:55 Charizard's favor Sonic/Charizard
5:5 Even matchup Sonic/Pokemon Trainor?

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes

@thederrit, thats what i mean...

 

[Coffee™]

Pit / Sonic matchup thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212871

 

[Tenki]

Charizard isnt combomania for you though :S His nair and fair are just as quick as anything Sonic has to offer, and the rock from rocksmash comes out on frame 5 meaning it will work as a counter if sonic hits the rock. chars dair ***** Sonics uair (playing yesterday the two met many times and Char was always the victor.) Sorry guys Char has better damage output, camps better (necessity in brawl), kills earlier, and lives forever. No PT will settle for less than a 60:40 for char

stuff about frame data

Um...

I'd just like to point out that a very important aspect of frame data (that's missing for MANY characters in Brawl) is ending lag.

People can go put MK's D-smash on a pedestal all they want because it starts on frame 5, but it has a 28-30 (not sure of exact #) dead time after the front hitbox goes away. That's enough time for Sonic to run across over half of Final Destination.

Sure, it's a nice little move to punish with. But consider how Sonic's approaches may not really be approaches (shield cancels, dash dance pivots, etc). How committed are you to those moves if I, say, side-B and shield cancel, or ASC and shieldcancel the landing just outside of your attack range, and how punishable are you if you miss?

Does ASC break through Rock Smash at full velocity?

That thing has crazy priority against grounded moves. Someone test, I can't right now as my bro is playing Kingdom Hearts on la TV D;

It shouldn't. The shards should knock Sonic out of it. I also was under the impression that ASC has pretty crappy priority and just omnomnoms projectiles once in a while when it's transitioning to landing.

rock smash gives charizard the edge.

...

comments and shiz please!

I'm just wondering what moves you land a damage (not knockback) rocksmash from. This is considering that airdodge/spotdodge isn't counted (universal). I can go ahead and put Sonic's ASC on a pedestal since it technically can be used to nail a 50 damage combo, but in all reality, Sonics will probably only go for a 20 or 30 damage counterpart instead.

You can talk about damage output from rocksmash, but are you talking about a sweetspot 43% or an 18% (?) from an 'outside' hit?

flamethrower is nice because sonic's approaches are often right in flamethrower's path, but it's too slow to rely on in this matchup. it's a solid move and makes for a pretty good approach on sonic (if you ever approach sonic lol...) but you can't use it against sonic's approaches as well as rock smash. it's more vulnerable to feints and the like. charizard's more vulnerable if you fail. flamethrower's about as useful as it usually is in matchups, which is alright.

flamethrower (and rock smash) on a sonic at the apex of the spring jump is nice though, since afaik sonic can't sweetspot the ledge on the way up.

...

can sonic be grabbed out of a spindash? obviously you'll need really solid timing if it's possible, but the range on zard's grab makes me think it could be.

Flame thrower aimed at the apex of Sonic's spring is not exactly a viable move to cite, since Sonic can just airdodge, or SDI a few times (even AWAY from the stage, mind you) and spring again. Hitting Sonic with a low knockback move while he's recovering helps him get back.

And yes, Sonic can be grabbed out of spindash. If I can standing grab Sonic out of spindash as Sonic (he has a pretty short standing grab range), then it should definitely be a viable move for Charizard.

However, spindash should be used to approach as much as Rock Smash should be used to approach. It's an amazing punisher, but it's rather ineffective (and punishable) if the opponent is in a neutral state (standing/shielding/walking/running). It's really best for punishing lag (startup, commitment, ending, and ... connection) either via cancels or sheer speed. Otherwise, Sonic's 'running' approaches are far safer and smarter to use.

I just remembered something.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203207

lol I remember that, but I never connected the names. After reading the thread the first time, I thought the TC was just some noname scrub that'd never come back, so I didn't think it'd be worth remembering the name xD

 

[Kinzer]

Rawr Tenki you're too slow, I already told him about how FT against Sonic's Spring recovery will only give him an extra boost.

 

[Steeler]

thanks for the correction on ft vs spring. rock smash would be better in that case then

i'm fine with ivysaur and charizard. 55:45 for charizard is still pretty reasonable.

i want to talk about squirtle. for a character that relies on punishment and being faster as much as sonic does...squirtle really kind of screws with that. squirtle is one of the least punishable characters in the game, period. movewise, squirtle's faster, no doubt. jab is very annoying for sonic because it has solid priority and comes out on frame 1, and does 12% as a combo, or can be canceled into a grab or ftilt or utilt...

sonic cannot combo squirtle very well. squirtle can still combo sonic decently, at least better than vice versa. i'm almost 100% positive that a correct utilts to two uairs chain is not escapable with a spring unless squirtle messes up. it seems to me that squirtle will not be able to chain this as long as he could against most other characters, but it'll still be a solid 35-40% on sonic. squirtle likely will not be able to get the usual third uair though, i'm pretty sure there's room for a spring there.

killing will probably be problematic, so squirtle should have a different strategy here than usual. which is, first opportunity to switch, do it. dthrow will do just that starting at low 100s, even with fatigue. without fatigue, starting around 80-90%. and squirtle has an amazing grab...so yeah. same range as marth's with a much smaller hurtbox. even if pt gets punished for the switch, sonic will get an uncharged smash attack out at best, so the earlier squirtle switches, the better.

i think the best strategy for pt overall here should be trying to get charizard to end stocks as much as possible...that'll extend pt's overall survivability by quite a bit.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that sounds about right.

i think sonic has to play differently to play against squirtle as well, since the hit and run wont quite work, it seems like its more feasible to go super aggro against squirtle. focusing on overpowering and out prioristing him with range and speed and power, things he seems to have more of than the turtle.

he is hard to hit cus he is small, but trying to beat his attacks with our own consistently seems like some thing sonic could only do against like 3-4 characters in this game, and squirt might be one of them.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I can personally attest to Squirtle's really screwing me over. It's one of the only matches that I play defensively, I usually shield grab aerials, though he can weave in and out whilst doing them so that is quite a problem.

I would call it 40:60 if not for Squirtle's weight/relative easiness to gimp. The problem is that I can't see how Sonic is going to rack up damage on Squirtle, multi-hit moves like fair are pretty useless against characters who can easily get out of them like Squirtle.

To be honest, I find Squirtle infinitly more difficult then Charizard. To me, Squirtle feels closer to a disadvantage then Charizard does.

 

[~TBS~]

I have PT experience, and most of us here say Squirtle is harder to fight than anyone of the other ones. Squirtles has alot of things that Sonic can get past, it just takes a little more work to actually fight a Squirtle. I agree with what ROOOOY! says.

 

[Browny]

KID, I just go super-aggro against squirtle and ivysaur lol. charizard requires a bit more thought though

 

[Boxob.]

Just avoid using Uair and Fair on squirtal. Stick with mostly bair and Nair. Dair semispike (It isn't even a semi spike, I hate calling Sonic's dair a semi spike) is great for edge gaurding, it's all you need against squirtal. Honestly, I don't see this matchup as any harder than Charizard.

 

[~TBS~]

So, Dair goes through Squirtle's Up B? And a good Squirtle is hard to fight, Boxob. Steeler will tell you about it, he has most of the knowledge on it.

 

[Boxob.]

I would like to fight steeler, sometime.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can call it d-air sweetspot if it bothers you so much.

 

[Boxob.]

I'm just kind of confused as to how NO ONE ELSE said anything about it not actually being a semispike.

That's like saying Mario's bair in melee semi spikes.

 

[Steeler]

I would like to fight steeler, sometime.

me?? against the legendary boxob, sonic of lore?

 

[~TBS~]

Boxob's Sonic is good. He has a cool DK, too.

 

[Boxob.]

me?? against the legendary boxob, sonic of lore?

Lul.

Are you any reputable with the Trainer?

 

[da K.I.D.]

ewww...
sonic of lore?
i wish he had the tourney placing to earn a name like that...


and to the best of my knowledge, there is no literal definition of semi spike so if I wanted to, I could say that Docs back air semispikes

P.S. he'll deny it but steeler is definitely the most rapetastic PT player out there. the same way DJ is the best brawl player in australia... lol

he has the best squirtle from what i hear and his vids are very nice...

 

[~TBS~]

There is PokemonMasterIRL, Zephraill (I think thats how you spell it), and Steeler. There was one with a cool Charizard, but i forgot his name. they stand out with PT...

 

[Boxob.]

There is a definition.

A semi spike is a move that you cannot meteor cancel, but isn't considered a spike because it send opponents below the 180th degree line.

So, Fox's shine or Ganon's backwards uair for example.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Typh is the other really good PT

PmasterIRL goes by AD in tourneys... just so ya know.

@boxy, oh, ok, well both of the moves in question become semispikes if the opponent DIs terribly.
lolololol

 

[Kinzer]

PKMIRL is a Charizard specialist, Steeler appears to be a Squirtle specialist... and I'm unsure of who is an Ivysaur specialist, but anyway if you people think Squirtle is a harder matchup than Charizard give me numbers.

I still think it's even anyway, Squirtle is easy to kill and easy to gimp, at least once you get the damage on him. The problem is Squirtle is d*** hard to hit thanks to his small size. Sonic isn't going to be standing around to let Squirtle hit him, so I dunno how often you're going to be setting up those UTilti into UAir combos and junk, just like Sonic isn't going to be hitting Squirtle into combos anytime soon. Sonic also happens to be in the middle of the weight list, so Squirtle won't be killing Sonic anytime soon, and especially not with how hard it's going to be to hit Sonic with its kill moves seeign as how Sonic is pretty mobile.

Somebody mentioned this before, but Sonic will have to be all over Squirtle and not give him time to think about what to do. This is a battle of spacing, resources, and going into a Werehog rage.

Convince me otherwise, anybody who thinks Sonic/Squirtle isn't an even matchup.

Edit: So here's the deal, since we've more or less gone over all the Pokemon (in such a short amount of time too, I'm quite impressed), our next and 30th (or our 32nd if you count Zelda/Sheik and PT but they don't have their own tab.) matchup is Diddy Kong. Who wants to go make the export thread/whatever, because the last time I did, it got "moderated"...

 

[~TBS~]

Kinzer put up some good reasons, there. He is absolutely right about Sonic having to go aggressive. One or the other will have to outdo the other, and combos are almost useless here. I am completely sure ASC can still work on Squirtle, though. It will help, but not by alot. Aggressiveness is the way to go, so Kinzer, you do have a point that its even...

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

Kinzer put up some good reasons, there. He is absolutely right about Sonic having to go aggressive. One or the other will have to outdo the other, and combos are almost useless here. I am completely sure ASC can still work on Squirtle, though. It will help, but not by alot. Aggressiveness is the way to go, so Kinzer, you do have a point that its even...

Going aggressive on Squirtle huh. You must consider his other resources though...

 

[da K.I.D.]

nobody is an ivy speciallist cause Ivy sucks.

and personally I feel that once you get past the "holy crap, im fighting a sonic" and the "Holy crap, he plays PT" phase and both people know the matchup, it becomes

Ivy: 4:6. Sonic wins
Squirt: 5:5. Even.
Char 5:5 Even.

if you want to know why i think sonic is so good against Ivy, Check Djbrowny's sig.

 

[Kinzer]

That's way you have to be aggresive but still smart, that's what the reourceful part was.

Nothing is stopping Squirtle from getting in a good hit on Sonic and switching to Ivysaur, and then once he's out of the picture we have to deal with the hardest of the three which is Charizard.

Never let Squirtle get any momentum, it's either hunt or be hunted in the matchup, you have to pick your moments every frame they come up on and keep moving.

 

[Steeler]

Adriel (AD) is pro. The best PT imo, it's between him and Typh. Most of the PT's are in California.

IRL and Adriel are two different people lol.

Pants (ItBurns) is probably the best Ivysaur specialist.

i think squirtle has an advantage at low to mid percents, and loses that once sonic enters killing range. squirtle's dthrow is the only really solid thing squirtle has with good knockback against sonic (well, anyone really, but it's really good). sonic isn't heavy by any means, so dthrow will at least give you plenty of time to switch.

i can imagine sonic and squirtle dancing and tiptoeing around each other when both are at high percents though, since they are both very mobile and have a lack of KO options. it would be REALLY gay lol.

honestly, squirtle does the whole "super aggressive don't have time to think" thing better than sonic does. squirtle's just plain better at follow-ups and has quicker attacks for the job. squirtle also has better tools to punish sonic with, again because of the speed of the attacks.

you know, i like the sound of starting the stock with squirtle, doing your thing, switching whenever you can to ivysaur so you'll be at a higher percent and gimps will be a little less scary (DI up), and then switch to zard before the stock's over. tank like a ***** and then start it all over again when you die.

not feasible in 100% of situations but it does a reeeeeeally solid job of making all three pokemon play in their own optimal roles here. it's stuff like that that makes PT better than the average of the three pokes.

i wish i'd played Mr. 3000 while i was down in Texas.

neutral is fine with me, i just thought i'd bring up the point that many have said sonic is a very punishment focused character, and punishment doesn't work very well on squirtle.

 

[~TBS~]

@KID
Oh yeah, ivy's recovery is asking for a dair or spring. his ground game is all right, though. KID, I think we can go your numbers. Anyone in disagreement?

Steeler, good points. Squirtle's attacks comes out very fast, and dthrow is too good. Our tilts comes out pretty fast, but Squirtles are somewhat better. We would have to play carefully, but go into rage mode at the same time.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Mmmm Steeler. Did you say that Squirtle's dthrow would be killing in the low 100%'s?

It kills Mario's at 150% apparently, and 190% staled, and we're practically same weight as Mario (give or take a couple of percent) to kill horizontally, and heavier then Mario vertically.

Someone should edit in another "PT" column on my chart on post # 3, because if I did it myself I'd only bugger it up.

PT as a whole, despite not any of the single pokemon having an advantage (there are two minor advantages, yeah) I believe through the combined power of teamwork (!) that he may have the advantage.

On the chart on post #3 that I'm going to update, are we going :

45:55/40:60 v Squirtle ( hurry up and decide D; )
60:40 v Ivysaur
45:55 v Charizard.

??

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

nobody is an ivy speciallist cause Ivy sucks.

and personally I feel that once you get past the "holy crap, im fighting a sonic" and the "Holy crap, he plays PT" phase and both people know the matchup, it becomes

Ivy: 4:6. Sonic wins
Squirt: 5:5. Even.
Char 5:5 Even.

if you want to know why i think sonic is so good against Ivy, Check Djbrowny's sig.

I'm sorry but Ivy has an advantage over Sonic, he can outrange him and kill him at low percents.

 

[Chis]

I'm with Kid's numbers.

 

[Kinzer]

I think Ivysaur does a little bit better than getting soft-countered by Sonic... For my sake, I'm just going to keep it at "in Sonic's favor by 5 points", because everybody else seems to think so too. If you want reasoning behind that logic, Ivysaur is easily gimped by Sonic (and moreorless everybody in the game...), if Ivy whiffs an attack, he's going to be flying just as fast as Sonic will be, but Ivysaur is like an Olimar that doesn't run on Pikmin. Ivysaur is just more easily punished than Olimar, seeing as how its attacks take a bit more commitment.

Now as for Squirtle (I need numbers if you disagree Steeler, what's it gonna be, Sonic gets a 45:55 disadvantage?), Sonic has tools to space just like Squirtle, and Sonic is probably just as mobile as Squirtle is in the air, and Sonic's ground speed is probably just as good as Squirtle's ability to hydroplane, what with regular running and our spin attacks.

Also K.I.D. you got to look it over, Charizard can keep Sonic at a distance if he gets predictable, can live so freaking long, has an easier time Killing Sonic, and doesn't afraid of Spring gimps thanks to the stats of Fly. Sonic will have to play a slightly different game than he would for most characters and work around Charizard's "brickwalls" which Rocksmash on it's own is all he really needs.

Edit: Rawr Zeph what are you smoking, even if I don't totally agree with K.I.D. I could see how Sonic MIGHT be able to soft-counter Ivysaur.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

I think Ivysaur does a little bit better than getting soft-countered by Sonic... For my sake, I'm just going to keep it at "in Sonic's favor by 5 points", because everybody else seems to think so too. If you want reasoning behind that logic, Ivysaur is easily gimped by Sonic (and moreorless everybody in the game...), if Ivy whiffs an attack, he's going to be flying just as fast as Sonic will be, but Ivysaur is like an Olimar that doesn't run on Pikmin. Ivysaur is just more easily punished than Olimar, seeing as how its attacks take a bit more commitment.

Now as for Squirtle (I need numbers if you disagree Steeler, what's it gonna be, Sonic gets a 45:55 disadvantage?), Sonic has tools to space just like Squirtle, and Sonic is probably just as mobile as Squirtle is in the air, and Sonic's ground speed is probably just as good as Squirtle's ability to hydroplane, what with regular running and our spin attacks.

Also K.I.D. you got to look it over, Charizard can keep Sonic at a distance if he gets predictable, can live so freaking long, has an easier time Killing Sonic, and doesn't afraid of Spring gimps thanks to the stats of Fly. Sonic will have to play a slightly different game than he would for most characters and work around Charizard's "brickwalls" which Rocksmash on it's own is all he really needs.

Edit: Rawr Zeph what are you smoking, even if I don't totally agree with K.I.D. I could see how Sonic MIGHT be able to soft-counter Ivysaur.

Kinzer, you must not have seen my Ivysaur then. I have a much easier time fighting Sonic than I am as Olimar.