Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Kupo Rose]

Shield and timing doesn't work on wifi. That may or may not contribute.

I time Hypno Smashes against DK Punch on wifi!

 

[XLR8TION]

oh i see now, even though i can somewhat handle TL, i was playing the mu dead wrong. i mean i was doing too much approaching and plus my autopiloting and spindashing habits x_x. And sometimes i would usually keep trying to challenge TL in ariel combat. idk why but i telling myself not to do that...yet it slips my mind lol.

edit: i feel like playing ICEing now lol hes so fun play.....yet he doesnt know the mu

 

[Tesh]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298094

Discuss marth matchup ( i dont remember who wanted it next).

 

[ROOOOY!]

Because I have way too much time on my hands.




It's not pretty to look at, or really accurate but I tried to get the closest approximations between them.


What do you do against a nade happy Snake? I have no idea how to approach him without either getting blown up or swatted out of the sky.

 

[Tesh]

I don't know what to do against good Snakes ROY, but I'll tell you what to do against 90% of them. Just dodge grenades and wait for them to trap themselves. It happens alot with snakes that aren't top level. Look look for the moments when they force themselves into avoiding their own explosions. Note if they cause shield damage to themselves that you can exploit with ASC and fair spaced near their heads. Use grabs.

Spoiler

I guess I should change all that to -4,-3,-2,-1,0,-1,2,3,4 now.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I only really play either good or top level Snakes. :/ I don't tend to let them get control of the stage and start baiting/juggling before they start getting nades out but it's kinda hard to stay close to Snake and make him make a mistake without a 50 inch hitbox hitting you out of nowhere. Once they're getting pressured it's pretty easy but it's getting him into those positions that sucks because by nature he's a defensive/campy character and most of his grounded moves are safeish. I actually find him harder to break down than any other character, even Olimar. I guess part of the problem is that I'm bad with items, like nades or bananas or whatever. I can avoid projectiles fine, but I seem to always take the wrong oppurtunities to use those kind of projectles against them.

I find ratios a lot clearer, but go crazy.

 

[xXGeeXx]

i like this n_n this kinda helped me beat olimars. .

 

[XLR8TION]

a nade crazy snake huh? if this was me....idk i do weird stuff and it works x_x cant explain

 

[Tesh]

Hey guys, wanna discuss some matchups again?

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'd like to, yeah. Possibly Wario next? I have a tournament this Saturday, and Bassem might be going to it, and last time we played in tournament he bum-rushed me. He's supposedly one of the three that's going to this that will likely prevent me from getting Top 3, so I'd like to get some insight.

I'm still skeptical about the MU being a simple -1 according to the BBR; I always felt it was a -2. I guess Wario's lackluster range plays a factor in that?

 

[Tesh]

Lets do Wario and Mario.

Sound good?

 

[FRiSKruns]

I only really play either good or top level Snakes. :/ I don't tend to let them get control of the stage and start baiting/juggling before they start getting nades out but it's kinda hard to stay close to Snake and make him make a mistake without a 50 inch hitbox hitting you out of nowhere. Once they're getting pressured it's pretty easy but it's getting him into those positions that sucks because by nature he's a defensive/campy character and most of his grounded moves are safeish. I actually find him harder to break down than any other character, even Olimar. I guess part of the problem is that I'm bad with items, like nades or bananas or whatever. I can avoid projectiles fine, but I seem to always take the wrong oppurtunities to use those kind of projectles against them.

I find ratios a lot clearer, but go crazy.

well, I'd say I do alright against good Snakes but then again that's only me considering them good :3 it's the same Snake mains that Espy deals with here in San Antonio :3 (there's 5 of them) O.o which aren't really Razer level or anything, (1 of them might be getting there soon though) but they aren't bad either.

Shield-stopping outside of grab range when he's got nades is really good as if he throws them at you they just get sent back to him, and you don't risk being grabbed, if he does nothing it's a free spaced ftilt, or dash grab->bthrow (bthrow avoids nades, and sometimes Snake won't even drop the nade which'll make it boom on him )
Things to note are that, Snake is bad when you're below him and all of his aerials are punishable by us upon landing(if not just before if auto-canceled properly) :3
We pretty much never want to do a trade off with Snake, even if we're in the lead, he's just so much heavier and kills alot easier. Uthrow tech chases work wonders in this match-up.

Spindashes can pick up nades if done properly (although you'll still have to throw them after). Having Port Priority almost puts this in our favor(since we won't take knockback from nades during grabs). Cypher-Grabbing Snake is always good as even if you do it the wrong way he still has to deal himself at least 17% damage to recover.

Pummel releases off the edge are great if you can get them. In fact they're better than a dthrow off of the edge as they force Snake to use his double-jump+Upb because if he tries to simply jump back to the edge you can edgehog and he'll fall to his death. In the event he jumps+ upbs he'll still be getting on the stage AFTER you, which leads to more uthrow tech chases :3

Gimping Snake isn't really easy, but it's not really *hard* as Sonic, anything that does more than 8% in one hit will knock him out of his cypher. ie. Homing Attack, Bair, Nair, Dair. I like using Homing attack when he's above, and Bair when he's below for the sake of saving a jump.

Keeping fsmash fresh is insanely useful in this matchup as if you do he'll be dying at about 130-140% with good DI from it, also, expect pivot nades from good Snakes :3 Overall, just be really patient and just as observant in the matchup and you'll be sure to make at least make it a close match if not get the win.

If you get hit by utilt DI towards him always since his utilt is similar to our uthrow in its knockback.

Edit: there's more I could make mention of, but I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Also: Credit to Espy on some of that advice, because some of it he told me when I wasn't good at the Snake match-up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

snake doesnt die from f smash at the middle of the stage until 153

 

[FRiSKruns]

Thanks for your input there KIDgoggles, I wasn't aware of that, it must have been bad DI during testing. I'll test that again later just in case.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

bypassing april fool's word filters is lame. You should be ashamed. Especially on FRIDAY

 

[XLR8TION]

Thanks for your input there KIDgoggles, I wasn't aware of that, it must have been bad DI during testing. I'll test that again later just in case.

yep, sonic ususlly dont kill snake early with fsmash so bad DI is a option for fsmash kills around 100%-ish!?(idk)

 

[da K.I.D.]

dont rely on bad Di on the other guys part if youre actually trying to win games.

 

[XLR8TION]

^kk gotcha, bad DI was something i did rely on just alittle

 

[Sky Pirate]

Pardon the interruption (?), but the Olimar boards are discussing Sonic. ^_^

 

[Rizk18]

Woah Fox vs Sonic 60-40? Way too outdated, more like 50-50. Refer to the Fox boards if you need the input. Although I think we should rediscuss the outdated MU.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Can't imagine a character who can play keep up with Sonic, has an Nair to block all of Sonic's approaches, has a projectile to control the flow of the match (a noncommittable projectile at that if SHTL or w/e is thrown into the mix), and has a readily accessible kill move at 105% to be an even MU.

That said, I think 6-4 is going a bit too far. 55-45 sounds right to me.

 

[Espy Rose]

SHTL lacking commitment?
Are you crazy?

 

[Rizk18]

Can't imagine a character who can play keep up with Sonic, has an Nair to block all of Sonic's approaches, has a projectile to control the flow of the match (a noncommittable projectile at that if SHTL or w/e is thrown into the mix), and has a readily accessible kill move at 105% to be an even MU.

That said, I think 6-4 is going a bit too far. 55-45 sounds right to me.

It is way too hard to laser camp in this MU. You can get a few lasers in here and there, but lasers are a big part of Fox's metagame, and in this MU it's very limited due to Sonic's speed. You won't have time to camp because Sonic will get to you in a millisecond. Nair is good but I still think Sonic can sheild it and punish because they know that's the move Fox uses against Sonic's attacks so they know it's coming. It's not easy to land an U-smash on Sonic.

You should watch MegaFox vs Espy on Youtube. I still strongly think this MU is 50-50.
@Espy, what do you think?

 

[Tesh]

don't mind the super old chart in the OP. I tried to help get this all cleaned up and a bit more accurate, but no one cares. You should read the more recent discussions if you wanna know what people think about it now.

the chart in the op is so old, it only reflects which characters have an easy time beating spindash with a kill move. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold metagame.

 

[Espy Rose]

Fox has an advantage. I'd say 55-45, but I dislike using the old ratios.

So +1 in Fox's favor.

 

[Rizk18]

Eh, I can see it being really even. But just my opinion.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's fine.
But I really doubt it is.

 

[Trent]

Fox's kills moves come out very quickly. Sonic's does not.

That helps.

 

[Espy Rose]

Fox's KO moves also have the habit of actually KOing.

 

[Tesh]

thats because he doesnt have to use his kill moves for spacing and combos like we do.

 

[Espy Rose]

Or because they actually, you know, KO.

 

[Tesh]

Our KO moves work fine fresh. Fox is light and his recovery is meh. I still think its his favor a little, but he isn't exactly hard to kill or hit with sonic imo.

 

[Espy Rose]

No Tesh. They don't. They're slow, and easier to avoid than a single digit frame smash attack that KOs us 20-40% earlier than ours KOs him.

 

[Kinzer]

How are you suppose to get hit by his USmash (at least, that's what implied) if you don't let the Dair come?

I'm not even trying to instigate, I just feel that's the only way it ever lands on me, if I'm expecting both.

 

[Tesh]

ever seen his hyphen smash? thats how

Yea, but we have gimps. He is a somewhat fragile character having recovery issues as well as light weight.

 

[Pheonix]

Gimping Fox? Lol good luck with that, double jump canceled Fair says "Hi" , that Fox isn't getting gimped anytime soon.

Dtilt combos, Uthrow, Shield (For the popular nair or dair), Uthrow, bair seems to work a lot. Also don't try to approach Fox from below, he'll just shine stall to dair. Running uairs and fairs tend to work alot.

Dat TKD experience <3

 

[Kinzer]

ever seen his hyphen smash? thats how

Yes, I've seen it. I'm still not convinced.

He does a SHL or a SHDL, if you're at mid or close range, what do you expect him to do?

Yeah sure he could grab you, but... what's that going to do, tack on more damage?

As long as you're not dead, I think it's damn fine that he does whatever. and if you happen to shield the USmash, that leaves him open for punishment, and being that you kind of need to get any damage you can, he has just as much to lose as you do for committing and/or not taking risks.

Also Phoenix pretty much covered everything else for me, just space and don't approach with a one-track mind and you shouldn't be dying so early.

I will have to disagree with that Fair recovery though. I'm not saying it's not safe or get's distance, it's the fact that he very rarely gets put in a position where he has to recover low that he probably won't get gimped anytime soon. That's aside from the point though, you can try and space Bairs so that it'll outrange or trade, or throw it out there and give him something to worry about so that when he lands you can put him back into the air for more juggle opportunities... Though I won't get into how that can be a bit... different with Fox, being that he can shine stall and is a fastfaller and yeah~... I think I've made my point clear by now so I'll just shut up.

 

[B.A.M.]

lol DJ fair can meet sonics dair if hes recovering low like that as far as im concerned. Gimps are a possibility but as always DI makes a huge difference. Kinzer, Fox's hyphen smash is great, i mean the character is faster than us at mid range not only with his moveset but even his movement speed. How are you not convinced thats ****? In fact, along with him being able to refresh his moveset so easily ( not as easily as other characters due to our speed) how can this be even? like Espy said, the character has legit kill setups and one of the best KO options in the game.

This is definitely +1 Fox. We can hang but again our KO ability stops this from being even in my opinion.

@ Phoenix: Get outta here with that mess. TKD smashing you isnt experience. Especially when my friend's noobknight is 2 stockin yo ***.

 

[Kinzer]

You are implying I said this MU was even. I've yet to give my opinion on that matter. I was just trying to gain insight/offer some advice.

However yes, I still don't see it. If you're real adamant about not getting hit by a certain attack, I don't see why you would unless you mess-up somewhere. It's sort of just like MK's tornado.

... No wait, how believable do I sound right now?

Normally I'd guess that'd take away from my credibility... or what little of it I may even have. Perhaps for some characters it may not be as easy as I'm making it sound, but I know that thanks to Sonic's abiltiy to run, and a very decent shield, I know I've only gotten hit if I don't have a full shield or shield it probably. That's just shielding it too, In terms of using movement to get around/away there's Spinshot and Spring Jump.

Ask tyrant if you don't believe me. I still lost those matches, but he might be able to give you some insight of how playing me might've made him think on a different basis; just because I would respect that MK has a lot of range and is quick to boot. :X I would let him do his thing, then when he ran out of jumps to Dair camp (lol) he'd probably do something. It's just me being a bad player that I couldn't take advantage of it.

Spoiler

Also no trash talk in here please. Yeah yeah, West Coast sucks, or we suck at mid-tier matchups, sometimes I wish we could play each other so easily and see that this @#$% ain't as easy as so many say it. Or maybe it's just because that I'm from the WC that I suck just as bad, if not worse or something, but I kind of want to doubt that's the case.

Why do I care though? I'm here to represent Sonic first and foremost. Right now I'm a disgrace, I could and should be doing better, ha.

We are taking into considering just one aspect right? I'll be the first to admit that avoiding anything else in conjunction with this stuff is next to impossible, but in Fox's case, what else he going to do?

... I will also be the first to admit that I sort of need to use my own advice, or take my own medication. I kind of want to play this MU again, just to see if what I'm saying actually works, or if there's something I'm missing.

... Wait, n00bknight? That wouldn't happen to be Panda, would he? He can be a decent player when he's not playing in a pattern... the same can be said about Phoenix. The same can also be said about myself, I just happen to be more conscious and free from patterns, which is probably the only reason why I might've won those matches in the first place. I really do need to work on my game, I'm so awful at this sort of thing.

Let's not fight each other please. ;~;

 

[B.A.M.]

lol no its my training partner Nismo. Panda isnt good. Phoenix just plays campy, and ppl apparently dont like to punish long ranged spin dashes vs him lol. Im just messin with him though, Phoenix is cool. A little cocky at times for no reason, but I dont blame him with his terribad fan club and all.

When was the last time you played Eric's Fox too? That would be another factor to consider. Besides, you are a frame data man, look at the frame data for Fox as well as his foxtrot speed. theres tons he can punish with usmash. he also has usmash OoS, which means we hit shield we die for the majority of our moveset. He can land camp us with a usmash, his bair is safe on shield and damn fast. his dsmash is fast as well.

I mean just think about it; a character that has quicker tilts than us close range, and is actually faster than us mid range with a strong high priority attack that comes out quickly out of dash.

Kinzer; you being more conscious and free from patterns makes you a dynamic player which would make you better for the most part unless you are just throwing out random crap.

In any case, does that make more sense as to why its so good? Just think of our dash attack being a kill move lol. and having priority. and being easily refreshed.

Fox can also bully us in close range ( not as bad as falco for obvious reasons), can rack damage fairly easily like us, and he can kill. I say its even if your KO tricks are working lol. Otherwise, it can be rough. It really comes down to the kill imo.