Nah, just spinshot up the slope and do a sliding shield through the tornado and then iSDR the endlag from the other side.
Browny what are you talking about? You didn't say one thing about how Sonic has the advantage.
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Browny what are you talking about? You didn't say one thing about how Sonic has the advantage.
Browny
Smash Hater
I didnt say sonic has the advantage, I said the only reasons why I can see people say is its ZSS advantage is because of the logic 'sonic is a bad character but the players make him good'. Why is it ZSS advantage then? That same ideaology works in reverse. Sorry but I live in a world of numbers and science and that means nothing to me. There is no examples of a top sonic and ZSS who both know the matchup, so again people assume that it is the Sonic's burden to provide such evidence but ZSS HAD NONE TO BEGIN WITH. Ignore everything you ever knew before 6 months ago about matchups and re-evaluate what relevant evidence you have today... show me why it is ZSS favour.
Kinzer
Mammy
Because boobies.
*Is actually on the side that believes this MU is even, if not in Sonic's slight favor.*
Also DJB you and Kita are similar in suggesting that Lee M is still an outlier for Lucario? Why so? Lee M AFAIK doesn't use Lucario anymore except for certain MUs, and to me that suggests he no longer practices with him anymore; if at the very least not to the same degree as he would his MK.
*Is actually on the side that believes this MU is even, if not in Sonic's slight favor.*
Also DJB you and Kita are similar in suggesting that Lee M is still an outlier for Lucario? Why so? Lee M AFAIK doesn't use Lucario anymore except for certain MUs, and to me that suggests he no longer practices with him anymore; if at the very least not to the same degree as he would his MK.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
you have to read deeper in to what hes saying to really understand the concept hes putting forward.
basically what we have right now is higher tiered character vs lower tiered character.
Since the higher tiered character has better options as a whole, its originally assumed that they have the advantage in the matchup. unless there is a clear and defined evidence and reasoning to say that the higher tiered character beats the lower tier character. i.e. something abusable like sheiks GR up smash on wario. or wolfs bair on olimar.
so unless something is either found to break the matchup, like pikachus CG on falco, or there is massive, overwhelming evidence, including tournament matches and lots of theoryproofing that state to the contrary, if people dont have any knowledge on a matchup and how said characters work against each other, they will automatically default to "which character has better tools as a whole, that character wins"
its funny cus after I beat esam in that one match, malcolm told me that he thought sonic beat pikachu despite everyone thinking the contrary, since at that point every important match between sonic and pika, the sonic would win.
basically what we have right now is higher tiered character vs lower tiered character.
Since the higher tiered character has better options as a whole, its originally assumed that they have the advantage in the matchup. unless there is a clear and defined evidence and reasoning to say that the higher tiered character beats the lower tier character. i.e. something abusable like sheiks GR up smash on wario. or wolfs bair on olimar.
so unless something is either found to break the matchup, like pikachus CG on falco, or there is massive, overwhelming evidence, including tournament matches and lots of theoryproofing that state to the contrary, if people dont have any knowledge on a matchup and how said characters work against each other, they will automatically default to "which character has better tools as a whole, that character wins"
its funny cus after I beat esam in that one match, malcolm told me that he thought sonic beat pikachu despite everyone thinking the contrary, since at that point every important match between sonic and pika, the sonic would win.
Decent aerial mobility, range, fast disjointed killing aerials. Spawns with a dangerous projectile that combos hard and kills early. Has a fast, invincible escape move with less commitment than Sonic's(depends on the situation). Low end lag on some dangerous moves.
Sonic's advantages over her are his mobility on the ground (which won't help him escape tough spots in the air), his gimping advantage over her recovery and competitive speed/range when juggling (with less reward).
I'm ALL for factoring in time outs for matchup ratios, but I think its reasonable to assume that Sonic might have to approach her.
Sonic's advantages over her are his mobility on the ground (which won't help him escape tough spots in the air), his gimping advantage over her recovery and competitive speed/range when juggling (with less reward).
I'm ALL for factoring in time outs for matchup ratios, but I think its reasonable to assume that Sonic might have to approach her.
Kinzer
Mammy
Good sir, I must disagree with you on the part of Sonic having to approach Zero Suit Boobies. There is little to no danger from her projectiles and if I had the lead, I would not mind sitting in the same place powershielding any possible thing she could throw (except maybe armor suit pieces but they only last up to the first stock, second at most) until it went to time or she approached me and leaves me with (more) openings.
I'll leave DJB to refute your other points, but I just had to address that.
Browny
Smash Hater
KID knows whats up.
I dont need to refute those points because they are irrelevant. You know its funny, every single one of those traits can apply to wolf also, and sonic has to approach that MU in an entirely different manner, kind of the same way that every other character in the game does, yet can have wildly differing matchups against the two.
Its NEVER a simple battle of range vs range, projectiles vs projectiles, kill power vs kill power, low lag vs log lag as characters like Luigi and wario will prove, the traits rarely ever meet directly.
Lets look at the natural advantages ZSS has in matchups which are not simply values tied to specific traits.
She juggles very well and it is hard to get in her range if you are not quick enough. Lucky for her, there are very few characters in the game with strong enough landing options/multiple jumps and enough speed to beat her in these aspects. Sonic has both. Suddenly her easily abuseable and very powerful options are negated and all she is left with is the hard hitting combos from dsmash and general range advantage. No where near enough and she is considerably weaker without these traits that make her a high-tier character imo.
I dont need to refute those points because they are irrelevant. You know its funny, every single one of those traits can apply to wolf also, and sonic has to approach that MU in an entirely different manner, kind of the same way that every other character in the game does, yet can have wildly differing matchups against the two.
Its NEVER a simple battle of range vs range, projectiles vs projectiles, kill power vs kill power, low lag vs log lag as characters like Luigi and wario will prove, the traits rarely ever meet directly.
Lets look at the natural advantages ZSS has in matchups which are not simply values tied to specific traits.
She juggles very well and it is hard to get in her range if you are not quick enough. Lucky for her, there are very few characters in the game with strong enough landing options/multiple jumps and enough speed to beat her in these aspects. Sonic has both. Suddenly her easily abuseable and very powerful options are negated and all she is left with is the hard hitting combos from dsmash and general range advantage. No where near enough and she is considerably weaker without these traits that make her a high-tier character imo.
You also forgot that she has the perfect move to push you away in the form of a 1-frame jab that out speeds everything Sonic can do, which pops you back into her long distance game, which she excels at.
Her aerial game also curb stomps ours, and her projectiles provide a decent wall when she is in the lead. She also has great setups in her dsmash, powerful projectiles in the beginning of the match, and easier methods to KO than we do.
I think we are at a disadvantage as a whole in the match up, but it's very small. It's the same as Pikachu's match up, where the characters can deal with each other's tools quite well, but just like Pikachu, ZSS has methods and options that simply outdo ours altogether in terms of efficiency.
Luckily, she's light, and aside from her jab, her close quarters game is short of mediocre, thanks to her terrible grab. Because of this, Sonic is able to handle her anywhere from mid-range to close quarters. What Sonic needs to do in this match up is prevent her from using her superior ground attack speed by popping her up into the air, and camp her landing. ZSS' has a huge blind spot right beneath her, and exploiting that weakness helps Sonic rack up the damage. Her light weight allows for KOs much earlier for Sonic too, so that definitely helps with his KO problem.
Bleh, done bantering away.
Her aerial game also curb stomps ours, and her projectiles provide a decent wall when she is in the lead. She also has great setups in her dsmash, powerful projectiles in the beginning of the match, and easier methods to KO than we do.
I think we are at a disadvantage as a whole in the match up, but it's very small. It's the same as Pikachu's match up, where the characters can deal with each other's tools quite well, but just like Pikachu, ZSS has methods and options that simply outdo ours altogether in terms of efficiency.
Luckily, she's light, and aside from her jab, her close quarters game is short of mediocre, thanks to her terrible grab. Because of this, Sonic is able to handle her anywhere from mid-range to close quarters. What Sonic needs to do in this match up is prevent her from using her superior ground attack speed by popping her up into the air, and camp her landing. ZSS' has a huge blind spot right beneath her, and exploiting that weakness helps Sonic rack up the damage. Her light weight allows for KOs much earlier for Sonic too, so that definitely helps with his KO problem.
Bleh, done bantering away.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Espy, why do you always just assume she will be in the perfect position to use all of her best options against us.
first of all, her jab out speeds everything we can do but the shiz does less damage then OUR jab combo... and even then, it really doesnt 'pop you back into her long range game' unless youre hitting with it at above 100%.
and that of course is assuming that your stupid enough to get hit by the full jab combo instead of DIing down and powershield grabbing the last hit like every single player on the planet should be accustomed to doing by now.
she can however, crouch cancel jab into down tilt, (which I dont think is an actual combo) and if that hits you, then THAT qualifies as a good set up for the rest of her game.
her aerial game only beats our flat out, when we are above her. her up air pretty much ***** everything, but if we are underneath her, she really has no solid option to get back down to the ground.
the metagame is progressing to the point where every character is learning to play zss like they are fox. aka dont get down smashed. its really not that hard.
lol at powerful projectiles in the beginning of the match being a valid reasoning to beating sonic. I guess diddy must hard counter sonic too. since his projectiles are even better. Oh wait, that kind just plays into the 'whoever is better with items' idea. since you can take them and use them for yourself.
also, peach, and samus are the only characters in the game that have a harder time killing than us. and peach is iffy. hasnt really mattered before, I dont see what makes it such a big deal in this matchup.
as someone who intentionally plays fox against zss. I can tell you that if you play the matchup as if you were fox. it makes things a lot easier. sonic can just straight up run away from most of her best moves.
not only that but the super underused tactic of run behind/under what ever move the other guy is doing and punish them from behind is super effective against those long range no lag moves she has.
not saying I disagree with the matchup on the whole but dj is def on to something here. since the reasoning people are putting forth for this kind of thing is SUUUUUUUPER shoddy.
first of all, her jab out speeds everything we can do but the shiz does less damage then OUR jab combo... and even then, it really doesnt 'pop you back into her long range game' unless youre hitting with it at above 100%.
and that of course is assuming that your stupid enough to get hit by the full jab combo instead of DIing down and powershield grabbing the last hit like every single player on the planet should be accustomed to doing by now.
she can however, crouch cancel jab into down tilt, (which I dont think is an actual combo) and if that hits you, then THAT qualifies as a good set up for the rest of her game.
her aerial game only beats our flat out, when we are above her. her up air pretty much ***** everything, but if we are underneath her, she really has no solid option to get back down to the ground.
the metagame is progressing to the point where every character is learning to play zss like they are fox. aka dont get down smashed. its really not that hard.
lol at powerful projectiles in the beginning of the match being a valid reasoning to beating sonic. I guess diddy must hard counter sonic too. since his projectiles are even better. Oh wait, that kind just plays into the 'whoever is better with items' idea. since you can take them and use them for yourself.
also, peach, and samus are the only characters in the game that have a harder time killing than us. and peach is iffy. hasnt really mattered before, I dont see what makes it such a big deal in this matchup.
as someone who intentionally plays fox against zss. I can tell you that if you play the matchup as if you were fox. it makes things a lot easier. sonic can just straight up run away from most of her best moves.
not only that but the super underused tactic of run behind/under what ever move the other guy is doing and punish them from behind is super effective against those long range no lag moves she has.
not saying I disagree with the matchup on the whole but dj is def on to something here. since the reasoning people are putting forth for this kind of thing is SUUUUUUUPER shoddy.
Way to blow what I say out of proportion.
I'm just taking note of things that she has that give her a slight boost. Never once did I say "_____ always beats our _____."
I'm more or less listing what problems we just have to work around, which ARE the 1-frame jab, long range game, aerial game (when we are also in the air), and the initial start of a round, in which she has control of all three pieces.
Also, way to assume they'll always go for jab3. What Zero Suits do YOU play?
That's why I said her airgame curb stomps ours. We have to pretty much camp right beneath her feet in order to keep pressure on her when she's airborne.
I should look for that chart the Fox's made on how to deal with ZSS. The same thing pretty much completely applies to Sonic as well.
Son of a *****, KID. ZSS has all three in her possession at the beginning of the match. That increases her coverage (even if temporarily). While that's not a reason Sonic loses the match, it's something that supports the idea that she DOES have some sort of immediate, temporary advantage over us. They provide her with safety from our approaches for an extended period of time, until either they disappear, are thrown off of the level, or we manage to snag them away from her somehow.
I honestly think Peach has it easier when it comes to KOs then us.
God. Quit making me type up so much useless crap.
I'm just taking note of things that she has that give her a slight boost. Never once did I say "_____ always beats our _____."
I'm more or less listing what problems we just have to work around, which ARE the 1-frame jab, long range game, aerial game (when we are also in the air), and the initial start of a round, in which she has control of all three pieces.
Also, way to assume they'll always go for jab3. What Zero Suits do YOU play?
That's why I said her airgame curb stomps ours. We have to pretty much camp right beneath her feet in order to keep pressure on her when she's airborne.
I should look for that chart the Fox's made on how to deal with ZSS. The same thing pretty much completely applies to Sonic as well.
Son of a *****, KID. ZSS has all three in her possession at the beginning of the match. That increases her coverage (even if temporarily). While that's not a reason Sonic loses the match, it's something that supports the idea that she DOES have some sort of immediate, temporary advantage over us. They provide her with safety from our approaches for an extended period of time, until either they disappear, are thrown off of the level, or we manage to snag them away from her somehow.
I honestly think Peach has it easier when it comes to KOs then us.
God. Quit making me type up so much useless crap.
Browny
Smash Hater
dont the items dissapear enventually?
IDK about you guys but sometime when I play zss I just run away and dont even try to hit them and wait for the time on the pieces to expire lol.
IDK about you guys but sometime when I play zss I just run away and dont even try to hit them and wait for the time on the pieces to expire lol.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
[collapse=L2FightZSS]
[/collapse]
I made this diagram when Asdioh had troubles fighting ZSS.
I've played Sovereign quite a bit and he's pretty decent at the MU. I think it's 40:60 ZSS. Like, her tools to kill and rack up damage are easily avoidable, it's that once you're caught you're in trouble. If she reads a spindash, it's EASILY 30-50% just from that 1 paralyzer shot. She has aerial prowess similar to Luigi, except she's much more threatening because unlike Luigi, she's not slower than a purple Pikmin on the ground or in the air. I don't factor in her armor pieces because they aren't THAT big of a threat. You shouldn't really be getting hit by anything she throws at you unless they catch you off guard. Z catching and throwing them away is my only priority if they are using them offensively. My main issue with ZSS is that she can lay into your shield with little problem because she has (from what I've seen) **** good shield advantage on her CQ game. Maybe, I'm just bad at dealing with it, but I can hardly get an OOS Uair or Fair off if she's just Jab1 and dtilting my shield. IMO She can solidly deal with Sonic's offense because she's actually fast enough to do so and even though her range is linear as ****, she has attacks that'll put you within her ranged attacks. Also, she's one of few characters that can just outright **** you up if you're trying to recover. Y.b.M and Sovereign have hit me with some of the most ludicrous **** while I was springing back to the stage. Fully charged Dsmash -> Flip kick spike.
I made this diagram when Asdioh had troubles fighting ZSS.
I've played Sovereign quite a bit and he's pretty decent at the MU. I think it's 40:60 ZSS. Like, her tools to kill and rack up damage are easily avoidable, it's that once you're caught you're in trouble. If she reads a spindash, it's EASILY 30-50% just from that 1 paralyzer shot. She has aerial prowess similar to Luigi, except she's much more threatening because unlike Luigi, she's not slower than a purple Pikmin on the ground or in the air. I don't factor in her armor pieces because they aren't THAT big of a threat. You shouldn't really be getting hit by anything she throws at you unless they catch you off guard. Z catching and throwing them away is my only priority if they are using them offensively. My main issue with ZSS is that she can lay into your shield with little problem because she has (from what I've seen) **** good shield advantage on her CQ game. Maybe, I'm just bad at dealing with it, but I can hardly get an OOS Uair or Fair off if she's just Jab1 and dtilting my shield. IMO She can solidly deal with Sonic's offense because she's actually fast enough to do so and even though her range is linear as ****, she has attacks that'll put you within her ranged attacks. Also, she's one of few characters that can just outright **** you up if you're trying to recover. Y.b.M and Sovereign have hit me with some of the most ludicrous **** while I was springing back to the stage. Fully charged Dsmash -> Flip kick spike.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
if were going to spend all this time talking about underused but still really good characters that sonic will only have to fight once in a blue moon... lets talk about how to fight tink instead. since that fight imo is wayyyyy harder
Kingtoon 3 stocked my sonic last week, and I have no idea when hes vulnerable or when im supposed to hit him.
Kingtoon 3 stocked my sonic last week, and I have no idea when hes vulnerable or when im supposed to hit him.
Toon Link is extremely vulnerable during his bomb pluck, and the startup for his boomerange gives us enough time to close the distance before either dodging or shielding it.
Be wary of arrows and zairs as they get near the ground. When they don't have a bomb in their hands, they're pretty vulnerable off of the level.
There's really not much to the match up. You just gotta learn the Toon Link's item pattern, and punish the start up lag that the boomerang and bombs have.
Be wary of arrows and zairs as they get near the ground. When they don't have a bomb in their hands, they're pretty vulnerable off of the level.
There's really not much to the match up. You just gotta learn the Toon Link's item pattern, and punish the start up lag that the boomerang and bombs have.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ok, so how do you punish these things while there are constantly other things flying at you. if he does have a bomb in his hand while hes falling, than he can airdodge drop it.
start of the match tink does a short hop double arrow and than short hops to pull a bomb. How do you punish that?
The time it takes to powershield/avoid projectiles gives him time to get away.
start of the match tink does a short hop double arrow and than short hops to pull a bomb. How do you punish that?
The time it takes to powershield/avoid projectiles gives him time to get away.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Ignore the high arrow, run in and shield. Now he's got to decide where he's gonna jump to and how to rid himself of the bomb. Either go offstage or go behind you. Offstage isn't an optimal place for Toon Link. So, he's gonna go behind you. Now he's gonna either hold onto the bomb and prepare to cover his landing or he's gonna Z drop it and let you deal with it. If he uses the bomb to cover his landing run in and shield and make use of OOS options. If he Z drops the bomb take it for yourself as an approach option. Your only real threats are Nair and Zair. I've been practicing this MU with Zephil so I've gotten better at dealing with Toon Link's shenanigans.
Trillion
Smash Ace
Against projectile spammers like Toon Link, I think power shielding is very important. Run > Power shield > Run ( > Grab) or Run > Power shield > OoS fair. You can always run back out if things look bad and usually out run projectiles. (Exception to that being Falco lasers). The key thing to remember is that you don't HAVE to approach usually. If they try baiting you to approach, then just take your time. Don't try to overreach when you don't have time and fail, just back out if you have to or jump around waiting for that moment where you see the right opening.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
@ oreo
if he airdodge drops the bomb to cover his landing, what can I do to punish that if Im busy trying to shield the bomb?
and also, if I fair or up air out of shield after the bomb hits my shield, is the bomb going to explode on me or am I going to catch it?
@magnum.
first of all, its been a while, whats good?
second, running is bad vs toonlink. he honestly has enough projectiles flying in random directions that if you try to run at him, something will hit you in your initial dash in the frames after you start the dash but before you can shield.
the tiny amount of success i had with sonic came when I walked up and attempted to powershield every projectile. but that doesnt help me if I dont know when hes vulnerable.
if he airdodge drops the bomb to cover his landing, what can I do to punish that if Im busy trying to shield the bomb?
and also, if I fair or up air out of shield after the bomb hits my shield, is the bomb going to explode on me or am I going to catch it?
@magnum.
first of all, its been a while, whats good?
second, running is bad vs toonlink. he honestly has enough projectiles flying in random directions that if you try to run at him, something will hit you in your initial dash in the frames after you start the dash but before you can shield.
the tiny amount of success i had with sonic came when I walked up and attempted to powershield every projectile. but that doesnt help me if I dont know when hes vulnerable.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
If he does AD Z drop, just roll behind him or just stay in your shield and wait for his next move.
If the bomb hits your shield it'll bounce. Just use that window of opportunity to Fair. Uair'll explode the bomb. Uair is only useful if they aerial into your shield or if you Uthrow them. Toon Link is terribly vulnerable from below. Shark Uair and camp his landing.
As for the ZSS stuff, I wasn't suggesting that ZSS is some 70:30 hard counter on Sonic, but some things do give her an edge.
Her projectile isn't comparable to Diddy Kong. At the start of a match you can actually get to Diddy Kong before he can grab a banana. If we can assume that ZSS v Sonic is even without suit pieces, then YES having a powerful projectile and access to her glide toss for mobility for the first stock or 2 is a notable advantage.
Looks like all the stuff I was planning to say has been covered though.....
Invincble bombing?
Well can't you either outrange the explosion (not sure) with fsmash or-
Shield under him to bounce/explode the bomb early and then grab his landing and backthrow (to escape the falling bomb)
I generally deal with bombs by shielding to bounce them away for easier catching .
Her projectile isn't comparable to Diddy Kong. At the start of a match you can actually get to Diddy Kong before he can grab a banana. If we can assume that ZSS v Sonic is even without suit pieces, then YES having a powerful projectile and access to her glide toss for mobility for the first stock or 2 is a notable advantage.
Looks like all the stuff I was planning to say has been covered though.....
Invincble bombing?
Well can't you either outrange the explosion (not sure) with fsmash or-
Shield under him to bounce/explode the bomb early and then grab his landing and backthrow (to escape the falling bomb)
I generally deal with bombs by shielding to bounce them away for easier catching .
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
but while youre spending all that time to shield a bomb, let it bounce off you, then jump up and catch it. than 1 or 2 of 3 things is happening.
1. the bomb is about to time out and wont last long enough for you to make use of it by throwing it back at tink
2. the tink realised that you are no longer focused on him, and takes the chance to run up on you and smack you in the face with a fair or nair. possibly catching the bomb that you were trying to catch in the first place.
3. the tink realised that you are no longer focused on him, and takes the time to gain more space, pull more bombs and chuck more stuff at you.
Im not trying to argue with you guys, Im just trying to find a way to get at this dude reliably.
Cus so far, all ive gotten is different variations of
"guess what hes going to do and attempt to punish what you think is coming.'
or
'treat it like a megaman boss battle and just watch him long enough to punish the patterns in his attack strategy.'
number 1 doesnt work because you can always guess wrong.
and number 2 may work on kingtoon or jerm or w/e but ive been watching jash vids and that dude doesnt really have any discernable patterns.
I would really like us to have some concrete ideas for what to do when, for stuff thats more guaranteed than guess what hes going to do, or roll away and start over.
1. the bomb is about to time out and wont last long enough for you to make use of it by throwing it back at tink
2. the tink realised that you are no longer focused on him, and takes the chance to run up on you and smack you in the face with a fair or nair. possibly catching the bomb that you were trying to catch in the first place.
3. the tink realised that you are no longer focused on him, and takes the time to gain more space, pull more bombs and chuck more stuff at you.
Im not trying to argue with you guys, Im just trying to find a way to get at this dude reliably.
Cus so far, all ive gotten is different variations of
"guess what hes going to do and attempt to punish what you think is coming.'
or
'treat it like a megaman boss battle and just watch him long enough to punish the patterns in his attack strategy.'
number 1 doesnt work because you can always guess wrong.
and number 2 may work on kingtoon or jerm or w/e but ive been watching jash vids and that dude doesnt really have any discernable patterns.
I would really like us to have some concrete ideas for what to do when, for stuff thats more guaranteed than guess what hes going to do, or roll away and start over.
Shielding doesn't take a long time.
If toon link is covering his landing with the bomb, you can bounce the bomb so it doesn't cover his landing and then punish the landing with an aerial while catching the bomb.
You can also shield bounce the bomb and then instant-toss it back at him if he isn't in range for a punish with an aerial.
Its not like...the whole matchup or anything, but bombs aren't THAT good.
Doesn't ASC go through arrows and boomerangs? I think they do...
If toon link is covering his landing with the bomb, you can bounce the bomb so it doesn't cover his landing and then punish the landing with an aerial while catching the bomb.
You can also shield bounce the bomb and then instant-toss it back at him if he isn't in range for a punish with an aerial.
Its not like...the whole matchup or anything, but bombs aren't THAT good.
Doesn't ASC go through arrows and boomerangs? I think they do...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
arrows, yes, boomerangs, might depend on the level of charge.
grounded SC just clanks and gets stopped in the tracks. which is annoying.
grounded SC just clanks and gets stopped in the tracks. which is annoying.
Trillion
Smash Ace
Yeah it has been a while, I've been kinda around mostly reading, but not talking much lol. I'm doing pretty well, how about you?
I know exactly what you mean about all the directions that those projectiles are coming from. Now, I might be generalizing because I admittedly do not have any offline experience against Toon Link mains, but my friends play him occasionally, so my experiences may be worthless. Though I have also played again Legan's Link who has a similar sort of projectile game, so who knows.
From experience and from videos I've seen, it seems that Toon Link's generally have sorts of patterns for their projectile games. Arrows are generally released on short hops, and bombs on full hops and on both you should expect a quickdrawn arrow to follow. They also don't usually throw a bomb in the same jump that they pull it. I have also been told by some who know the MU as other characters that T. Links like to have a bomb pulled as much as possible. I've also never seen a Toon Link approach while pulling a bomb, so they almost always are moving backwards or jumping high while pulling one.
So, from just some general patterns you can make some predictions about what they are about to do. If you see them create distance and they are not holding a bomb, then expect to see them pull one. If they short hop expect an arrow or two. For me, the hardest thing to read is the boomerang. If you can, try to take the beginning of a match to keep space and make observations about their particular projectile habits as they seem to fall into a sort of pattern.
Again, I might be over simplifying things, so sorry if this advice seems redundant or too obvious. I don't mean to be acting like you are stupid or anything if any of these seem too obvious.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
no not at all, thats the kind of stuff I need, mad useful.
Trillion
Smash Ace
Cool, glad I can help.
Check out this vid of Espy vs. Jerm
Notes:
- He almost ALWAYS full hops the bomb pulls and either jumps straight up or jumps away from Espy. I believe this is because a short hop bomb pull can not finish in time for a quick draw and having that option available is always safer.
- Toon Link pulls more bombs as he gets closer to being killed I think. (This actually makes sense strategically. Item throws finish faster than aerials for DI purposes, so they can actually lead to longer lives, notice the bomb being throw as Jerm loses his first stock, then at 3:10-3:20 he pulls a bomb and throws it and then pulls another immediately) This means at higher %'s, that T. Link will be more focused on pulling bombs which means you can try to be more aggressive and in his face since you can expect more openings due to bomb pulls.
- Boomerangs are thrown from closer to the ground, than from higher up on average. They don't commonly aim them upwards (because you can go under them to easily in that case), but more often aim them straight or downwards so that they bounce and provide better coverage against incoming aerial approaches. (In Melee I used to main Link and used bouncing the boomberang on a downward throw to force opponents to approach from higher in the air which would give me more time to compensate for spacing, I think the same concept applies in Brawl for T. Link)
Jerm did better on Game 2 on SV
- Stages with platforms tend to interrupt bombs, so YI, BF, and Lylat might be effective CPs. Also, the tilting of Lylat probably makes it harder to use arrows and boomberang, so that might be a great stage to take him to. Castle Siege might be viable?
- FD and SV should probably be avoided. Pictochat is questionable in my mind since T. Link's best killing options (up air, up smash, down smash, excluding fair) send people off the top and Pictochat's high ceiling would make it harder. In it's natural position it's flat which I think helps projectile spam, but it's different changing forms have platforms, so idk.
TommyGreenShirt
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2010
- Messages
- 312
For us or him?
Trillion
Smash Ace
More junk that I've thought of since my last post:
- Toon link almost never lands without some sort of hitbox coming out.
- zair autocancels for 4 frames of landing lag if fastfalled and 2 frames if normal falled
- quickdrawn arrows
- boomerangs
- bomb drops
So, If you approach on the ground as Toon Link is falling, be prepared to shield and if you can, shield grab.
I'll add more to this post as I think of it if nobody makes another response before I get back.
- Toon link almost never lands without some sort of hitbox coming out.
- zair autocancels for 4 frames of landing lag if fastfalled and 2 frames if normal falled
- quickdrawn arrows
- boomerangs
- bomb drops
So, If you approach on the ground as Toon Link is falling, be prepared to shield and if you can, shield grab.
I'll add more to this post as I think of it if nobody makes another response before I get back.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
All aerials will clank and hit thru arrows and rangs.
SoupaSonic
Smash Journeyman
Can anyone give me some advice on how to fight snake. I get hit by grenades he pulls out before I hit him and that happens a lot to me. His f-tilt is giving me a lot of trouble as well, and at higher percentages I underestimate the broken range of his disjoint on u-tilt. Snakes that I've faced just tell me to do more side b and grabs but I can never grab them, plus I'm already sorta spin happy so...yeah help plz
oh and stages to ban and cp would help
oh and stages to ban and cp would help
Trillion
Smash Ace
Spin less, grab more. I like sliding shield grabs. If you DO spin, then use ASC and don't spin on the ground much. You can SDI the f-tilt.
CP: Pictochat and such places that have high ceilings. Maybe Yoshi Island Brawl
Ban: Places with low ceilings.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
Snake...hmm.
This might be a player problem in my book, but what to do vs a Snake that knows how you (as a player), plays the MU entirely right? They camp hard, they shut down my advances and reads me like crazy. One of them remarked "Speed you suck. Get more gimmicks." Ouch much? Anyway, i think its moreso me as a player...i have to find out how to improve period. I think its reading. Just stone, hardcore reading.
Tink mad gay.
This might be a player problem in my book, but what to do vs a Snake that knows how you (as a player), plays the MU entirely right? They camp hard, they shut down my advances and reads me like crazy. One of them remarked "Speed you suck. Get more gimmicks." Ouch much? Anyway, i think its moreso me as a player...i have to find out how to improve period. I think its reading. Just stone, hardcore reading.
Tink mad gay.
SoupaSonic
Smash Journeyman
Wait what do I do if I grab the after they just pulled a grenade out? Usually if I throw them back the grenade blows up because I used some time to pummel. Or if I don't pummel will the snake be able to throw back the grenade if I throw him as soon as I grab him? Also I heard f-air doesn't blow up grenade but I never really saw if it works.
yeah
Kinzer
Mammy
Try F-Throw or U-Throw. F-Throw is especially fast, and even if either still blow up the grenade, then it's just as you said, it won't make that much difference because B-Throw is too slow; so is the case of D-Throw but I think D-throw detonates the Grenade. F-Throw and U-Throw on the other hand at least do 1% and 4% more respectively.
Yes, it does work. The trick is to not overlay the hitbox over the grenade. Better known as "proper spacing."
Trillion
Smash Ace
First, no matter who you are playing against, if the opponent knows your play that well, then you should try to mix things up a lot more. Use attacks that you don't use quite as often, tactics that you don't normally employ and focus more on a hit and run game to throw them off theirs and get them chasing you so that you can slowly start to implement your normal game.
If a Snake is camping (I'm assuming like grenade camping and/or playing defense?), then what I like to do is annoy and pester him and get him moving again. I move around a lot and drop springs on them. It doesn't do much damage, but they will get annoyed and start chasing.