Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[WedginatorX]

Indeed, fair is a great followup to sonic's uthrow and fthrow, and fair and uair are his best options oos.
***** metaknight's drill
Amazing for walling people out as well.
Now get the **** out of here, KenniSuck

 

[Mr. Johan]

The write ups are more important than the chart. It’s not like you’re the 457 the person to mention this or anything.

It's been a long time since write-ups have been made though. And the directory on the first page hasn't been updated in three months, and that's what everyone is going to be looking at when they want to find their character and how they fare in the Sonic MU. For a while, it seemed like this thread has become a spot where we just list whatever MU we're having trouble with at the time, and get feedback for it, instead of going over MUs one by one to add in new information that the Sonics and the other character have developed that can shift the matchup from before.

Maybe we can follow other boards' leads, and make matchup exports, one to three at a time, and instead of going off of number ratios, go with a "large advantage - large disadvantage" spectrum, just to get a general glimpse at the matchups once again?

 

[Kinzer]

That wouldn't work.

First off, people need to be motivated. Motivated to discuss matchup,s do write-ups, and willing to do certain characters.

It's much easier to just make this into a feedback thread, and let the write-ups come as they come. Because honestly, We'd spend so much time trying to come to a consensus on a ratio (either nubmered or worded), and then combine all our ideas to talk about the things to abuse and watch out for in certain matchups. That's for the ones with a hefty amount of data, characters that aren't seen as much will not have as much data as logged and will thus be just as difficult, if not moreso to discuss.

Having that said, I wouldn't mind doing the entire CSS write-ups, but I know people wouldn't be quite satisfied with what I wrote, so unless people would like to take my version and edit it into their vision as they see fit should it not be "correct," I'm not going to be doing work just so I can have others ridicule my efforts. :l

/butthurt.

 

[Tesh]

I'm motivated. I agree with Chis about the discussion being the most important thing, but even THAT is outdated too in this thread. And I KNOW this stuff tends to come up in the social. But thats the same thing that sort of annoys me about Snake boards and others. Alot of the most important discussions just wind up happening in the social and lost in a flood of other subjects.

Some of us might actually learn something from a matchup discussion.

As far as ratios, we don't have to agree 100% on all of them. Even if we do averages and factor in my trolling attempts we can come to a more reasonable consensus than DK,Sheik and ROB being as difficult as MK, Lucario, DDD. GnW and Marth as Sonic's hardest matchups? Even matchups with Diddy Kong, Samus and Jigglypuff? The Lucario discussion in the OP starts almost TWO YEARS AGO.

At LEAST lemmie fix that chart into something more reasonable?

 

[WedginatorX]

I'm with my other son tesh.
Yes he's my son now because he's a troll.
Let him fix **** up.

 

[_Dice]

It'd help new sonics like me immensely if we worked on this anew. perhaps going from the most common tournament matchups to the least common in order to help new players as soon as possible.

 

[BlueAuraEX]

Guys...Cut the Matchup Chart people some slack. Not only are they probably still collecting data, they probably have other things going on. 3 Months? Guys, that's not THAT long. There'll be more soon I'm sure. Til then, just keep experimenting around. Stages, Characters, Items, etc. The best knowledge comes from practice after all...

 

[Tesh]

There are no "matchup chart people".

Come on, now THIS is more reasonable.

It definitely isn't more wrong than the one in the OP. Soft counter adds up to 110 for Christ's sake.

 

[NH Cody]

I don't think Marth is that bad...

 

[Tesh]

Well despite the intensity of the color when compared to slight disadvantage, its not putting him as a hard counter. I feel 60:40 is a winnable matchup with a distinct and clear risk/reward disadvantage. All the characters labeled Orange(60:40) are characters that Sonic doesn't have trouble fighting and zoning against. They just gain better rewards for punishing and reading Sonic than his rewards for punishing and reading them.

Same for the 60:40 matchups in Sonic's advantage. They aren't useless against Sonic like Ivysaur, but its definitely and uphill battle.

 

[Kinzer]

Did you do that chart based on your opinion of the MUs against the cast?

Either way, I like it. If only because it's a more accurate representation of Sonic's MUs than the one we have on the front page now.

 

[Tesh]

I tried to be reasonable and take into account all the opinions I could recall.

I personally would have MK on orange and Lucario on Orange. Sheik would be 60:40 imo not 55:45. I think she is about as effective as falcon vs sonic. DK to slight disadvantage perhaps.

 

[WedginatorX]

There are no "matchup chart people".

Come on, now THIS is more reasonable.

It definitely isn't more wrong than the one in the OP. Soft counter adds up to 110 for Christ's sake.

If mk is red, wolf would be red.
He's as bad for sonic as mk.
Sonic vs. Falcon is dead even, as is sonic vs mario.
DK should be blue.
Other than that I think I agree with the majority of it.

 

[Tesh]

How are Falcon and Mario tougher than DK?

Idk about Wolf being as tough as MK. MK is all around good all over. Hard to CP him, hard to tackle his CPs. Great on stage and off. Wolf is like half of that+lasers. I could see Wolf as Dark Orange with Marth. Having so few colors annoys me. I wouldn't put Kirby in the same difficulty as Toon Link or Fox. But I wouldn't move any of those matchups to even or clear disadvantage.

What I should do is just make a matchup tier list. No matchup is truly equal to another. First try at it.
1)Tier to Fear
Lucario
MK
Falco
Olimar

2) Uphill battle, exploitable flaws though
Wario
Snake
Marth
DDD
Peach
Diddy Kong

3)Spam Tier
Wolf
Toon Link
Pit
Yoshi
GnW
Pikachu
Fox
Kirby
ZSS
Donkey Kong
Squirtle

Ice Climbers

SONIC This is basically my "dead even" line.
4)A little too slow
Luigi
Ike
ROB

5)Advantaged, but keep cautious
Lucas
Sheik
Mario
Captain Falcon

6)Only if they can steal the lead
Charizard
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Bowser

)Spinballin outa control
Ganondorf
Zelda
Ivysaur

 

[WedginatorX]

Idk tesh, how IS donkey kong easier than mario and falcon?
You wouldn't know, because you're too busy getting 3 stocked by neon.
We need to have a serious discussion and come to reasonable conclusions based on the discussion. No one is accurately able to make ratios on their own.
Not myself. Not espy. Not X. Not you. Not anyone on this board.
We need input from everyone, and that includes mains of the other characters. All of them.
I know exactly who I'd call in for the wolf discussion too.
I can beat peaches. I can beat diddies. I can beat marths.
Wolves who know what to do **** sonic as hard as metaknight or lucario.

 

[Tesh]

DK could be Sonic's advantage slightly. And no, being lazy in a friendly had no bearing on my matchup ratio. Mario and Falcon are just far less threatening in every way. DK is fast and dangerous. He lives forever and can wear you down. What makes you think Mario and Falcon are somehow more difficult than DK?

 

[WedginatorX]

Falcon is just good at dealing with spindash (you seen rule34's anti spindash techniques? When he used to play he'd legit knee people out of spindash with split second reaction time) and to be honest has the speed to keep up with sonic better than the rest of the cast. And they have about the same amount of reliable kill moves. Aka few.
Mario... I'll have to take more time and writeup an opinion of him. It's a personal experience thing.
DK has a hard time dealing with spindash, he is ***** by spindash footstools, and asc footstool offstage is a gaurenteed kill on him when landed. He's extremely gimpable and a very easy character to timeout.

 

[Tesh]

I assume you mean he would knee people out of silly buffered aerials out of spindash? Big deal. DKs uair kills about as well as Falcon's knee at that height.

I don't see how DK is easy to time out but not Mario.

 

[-LzR-]

DK has a hard time dealing with spindash, he is ***** by spindash footstools, and asc footstool offstage is a gaurenteed kill on him when landed. He's extremely gimpable and a very easy character to timeout.

Hey thanks! Gotta try that against the local DK I am playing against today

 

[WedginatorX]

Loool tesh. No. You dun even know bout falcon. While they were still in spindash ball. He'd knee them out of it.
Jab, most tilts, obvious pivot grab, uair (can punish those followups or asc), shffbair, and several other moves can shut down/punish spindash as falcon.

 

[BlueAuraEX]

I see it's already been done...Oh well, I guess everyone got what they wanted now. As for the new chart, I suppose it's accurate. Some of it just seems too opinion directed, and less factual, but meh. That's my personal opinion, so it's no biggie...

 

[Mr. Johan]

The chart is not official, it's just more accurate than the previous one. And since Tesh made the chart out of memory of others' opinions and with what is more or less general consensus when their hasn't been discussion over it, it's not going to be overly accurate. If character discussions can get underway, and we get opinions from other character boards and deep, informative opinions from the Sonics, the chart will become more accurate and factual to an extent.

And because of differing playstyles and the like, the chart will never be 100% agreed on anyway. I have bias toward DK myself, and consider that matchup even to slight disadvantage, and the Falcon matchup even, but I think Sonic can slightly beat Mario, and loses hard to Peach and Wolf as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ASC beats spinning kong?

 

[Tesh]

Big deal Wedge, everyone and everything can hit Sonic out of spindash. DK does it harder and doesn't have to land a precise sweetspot to be dangerous. And all that stuff you listed about Falcon can be done by DK. And his Pivot grab isn't as slow as his smashes like Falcon.

I understand that Falcon is fast and can chase Sonic reasonably well, but that only counts for so much. Sheik can catch Sonic too, but I still have DDD as a much tougher matchup because once he does catch you, it huts way more than Sheik.

 

[WedginatorX]

The chart is not official, it's just more accurate than the previous one. And since Tesh made the chart out of memory of others' opinions and with what is more or less general consensus when their hasn't been discussion over it, it's not going to be overly accurate. If character discussions can get underway, and we get opinions from other character boards and deep, informative opinions from the Sonics, the chart will become more accurate and factual to an extent.

And because of differing playstyles and the like, the chart will never be 100% agreed on anyway. I have bias toward DK myself, and consider that matchup even to slight disadvantage, and the Falcon matchup even, but I think Sonic can slightly beat Mario, and loses hard to Peach and Wolf as well.

Lol you've played my falcon with your sonic.
You know.
I agree with those statements. Sonic can probably beat mario solidly now that I reviewed some things.
I still feel DK is easier than falcon. Might mm C4bl3 or wi11 to get some playing in against top dks. I haven't played anyone quite as well-known as them, but I have played quite a few dks.

 

[Espy Rose]

ASC beats spinning kong?

Only if you hit him on the head, I would think.

 

[WedginatorX]

That's right

 

[Mr. Johan]

Lol you've played my falcon with your sonic.

I've played other Falcons too, and when I play them, I see a character that can create some "psuedo"-pressure on Sonic thanks to his also-stellar ground speed and his better-than-Sonic's air speed. Add in those lovely jabs, nair, and uair, and you have a character that can play keep up, and play it well.

 

[JayBee]

I feel like Sonic vs Dk is more 50/50 now. I mean everytime I play a DK, whether I lose or not, I just know that at anytime, I can go to town on them if i get that initial hit or throw, yknow? Its not even an issue half the time. then the other half he gets a good grab on me eventually or something and I lost momtentum, and it get a little more difficult, but I always feel like I could have prevented losing the momentum had i just played smarter. I love the DK matchup.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic has beaten dk for a long time now.

definitely 60-40 sonic.

theres just too many ways to juggle him and too many ways to harass or even just flat out destroy his recovery.

be careful you dont run into a G punch or anything along those lines, dk still kills at half the percent sonic does.

 

[Chis]

Tell me when the majority are happy with Tesh’s chart then I’ll add it into the OP.

 

[Tesh]

Can't we just discuss all the matchups again? Now that I am looking at the OP and the smiley faced, these outdated discussions from 2008 and 2009 weren't even all finished WAY BACK THEN. Maybe we can just archive this thread and start a new one (or export threads, those just seem much neater and effective).

Can you fix the picture that says 65:45, I'm not just if that is some joke I'm not getting....

I know there have been discussions more recent here and there, but they shouldn't be so hard to find. Our most recent discussions are in the social, video and tournament threads. And on other boards discussing Sonic.

 

[NH Cody]

Yeah...we should rediscuss everything.

 

[SoupaSonic]

That would be a pretty good thing to do

 

[~TBS~]

I'd be happy to try my best to pitch in.

 

[Tesh]

I'd be happy to try my best to pitch in.

Ah Speedius, just what I was waiting for. The new 2011 Sonic matchup discussion now has the support of someone good.

 

[NH Cody]

Thanks a lot tesh >_>

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I would like to really look more into Sonic's match ups and get my Sonic better so I would love to see MU discussion

 

[~TBS~]

Wow, give yourself and other's some credit tesh! you guys are amazing, dont ever let anyone else tell you otherwise. Speedius looooooooooooooool. He can do better.

Yeh Rick. Peach has been buggin me lately. halp?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ummmm

Space Bears (where's that picture?), laugh/cry (however you choose to cope with these things) when you both live forever, then laugh as you live to about 170%-190%+ despite the fact you aren't Snake, throw out Uairs for juggles every now and then, don't Spring -> Dair when she's near unless she sucks at punishing, run away whenever you feel like it, run at her and grab her if she pulls Turnips, pressure her offstage with Bairs and F Smashes, don't spindash into her if she's clearly Floating near the ground and most importantly, run at her and get 'premature' hits in - especially if she's facing you because Fair isn't very fast so you can sometimes run at her and get a Fair in or run underneath her as she's landing and grab her

Seriously, run away if you get the lead because she sucks at killing and so do you


I wish I could play some you guys Seriously, are there ANY Euro Sonic's out there?