Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Robfox]

I already know im late but what about MK on the Sonic worst match up poll? I also think TL should be up there Spam/Camp > Sonic Speed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

tink isnt that bad, he just requires you to play COMPLETELY different than normal sonic does.

 

[Kinzer]

That poll is a bit outdated, and was probably influenced by a couple of the boards' opinions on Sonic's worst MU.

A.K.A., nobody thought MK was as broken back then as we understand now.

I still would much rather fight MK over Olimar or Falco any day of the week though; Moreso Falco because at least against Olimar I can @#$%ing Gimp him!

 

[WedginatorX]

Falco isn't hard~
Due to events in the NJ PR thread I think some people want a Sonic vs. Ike rediscussion :l

 

[da K.I.D.]

You were being dumb and talking junk again werent you?

 

[Espy Rose]

No.

A bunch of nonsense from the JUJment Day results spread over to the NJ Thread which instigated Kai to confront Inui about the Ike vs. Sonic match up.

It's still 60:40 Sonic. Nothing's changed.

 

[Trillion]

I don't have problems against Falco. I do have problems with G&W, Olimar, and MK. As for Marth, I typically find myself out matching Marth players and actually getting a really nice lead (might be because I'm a Marth secondary and was a Marth main in melee). But, then I take a really long time trying to get the kill and end up losing my lead or even falling behind.

 

[Zatchiel]

This happens to me a lot as well, but mainly losing my lead.
G&W is actually the hardest MU for me, his Bair stays out long, even after he looks as if he's touching the ground.

 

[Kinzer]

I love playing against G&W actually. Just have to find where the lag in his attacks are and punish.

Also I thought Sonic Vs. Ike was even. When did that change?

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. I love playing against G&W actually. Just have to find where the lag in his attacks are and punish.

2. Also I thought Sonic Vs. Ike was even. When did that change?

1. i like that matchup too, since its so straight forward what you are supposed to do and when.

2. Sonic has always had an advantage vs ike.

 

[Kinzer]

Always?

I guess I'm too slow then.

But I suppose for the sake of some discussion, how exactly does it go down? I don't have any noteworthy Ikes in this area, nor do I feel like playing Ike against Sonic (and for good reason apparently).

 

[Greenstreet]

Man I remember way back when I started this thread. I need a re-read though... must get competitive... :/

 

[BSP]

This happens to me a lot as well, but mainly losing my lead.
G&W is actually the hardest MU for me, his Bair stays out long, even after he looks as if he's touching the ground.

IIRC the turtle hits you 5 times in the air or so, then its head goes down. From then until it hits the ground, there's no hitbox. For a badly spaced turtle, you should be able to jab in this time. If he's out of range, sidestep the landing hit and punish the lag. His only option that might outspeed you is up b, but that puts him in a bad position.

Take him somewhere flat, and just wait for the mistakes. He has definite lag, and Sonic can capitalize on that. If only MK had some...

 

[Zatchiel]

OMFG Thanks! =D
I'd always wait until he reached the ground out of Bair, then shield-grab.
Thanks for that!

So when he hits the ground, it deals an extra hit?
Also, figures on the flat stage part.
I only win my friend (G&W) on FD and SV, but now i realize why he keeps owning me on BF
Thaks again!

 

[BSP]

Yeah, the turtle produces one more hurtbox on the ground when it hits it, which is why everyone thought the move was so broken in 08. But I main Meta Knight now now we know how it works, so we can punish it.

 

[Espy Rose]

If you shield it, you can let go, then power shield the grounded hit and punish.

 

[Trillion]

This happens to me a lot as well, but mainly losing my lead.
G&W is actually the hardest MU for me, his Bair stays out long, even after he looks as if he's touching the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYfunwOt9FU&playnext_from=TL&videos=C3V2O9-r5zs


This video may help.

 

[Zatchiel]

That helps a lot, really gotta mess with that shield-drop > Powershield, too good dude
Thanks for the help!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Some of these need changing, especially Wario and Peach

Should be more reds and blacks if you ask me

****ing Sakurai

 

[Tesh]

Might as well fix the picture that lists 64:45 as a soft counter as well. ( 65+45=110)

 

[Joe1337nou.]

Delicious Digg yo. Sonic suggs.

 

[~TBS~]

Some of these need changing, especially Wario and Peach

Should be more reds and blacks if you ask me

****ing Sakurai

You kinda forgot about MK and Lucario...ugh, they're just plain **** man. Anyone else agree?

 

[da K.I.D.]

lucario doesnt destroy in the matchup.

If you watch vids of me vs rayku. youll see that the match is very very event until its gets to the last (or sometimes second) kill at which point the matchup goes to like 80-20 lucario but up until then I have to say that its really really even.[

Id like to talk about game and watch tho. for 2 reasons.

1. I think sonic does way better in the matchup than previously assumed.
2. a lot of the things that you need to do in the matchup are things that you need in order to be a better player in general.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic does fine vs. Lucario until Lucario gets beyond 100%, which happens every stock.
Then it becomes a nightmare.

 

[Browny]

oh god... I hope you are aware that nothing changes once lucario goes from 100-101 (or 99-101 for that matter).

 

[da K.I.D.]

it changes when lucario gets to 130 because thats when we start trying to kill him.

 

[Espy Rose]

And that's where it all goes downhill.

 

[Trent]

**** Lucario.

 

[Trillion]

I'm working on the best way to gimp Lucario. Right now, I think double fair at low % is great, but I need more testing on humans.


Hitbubbles show it should work just fine:

Gimping Lucario

 

[da K.I.D.]

even with those pictures, I wouldnt recommend trying to beat lucarios fair with our fair offstage. spacing is a bit too demanding imo.

I would rather try to just horizontally space the our bair, since it has a better chance of beating the fair in my opinion. and than the lucario might try to airdodge too, and we can eat that up with our bair, along with other moves.

But i will try to space fairs on lucarios offstage in the way youve described, I might be wrong.

 

[Kinzer]

Even if that were possible, wouldn't they just SDI the Fair to get sent the other way...?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I still refuse to believe people know enough about sonic to do that intentionally.

Based on the spacing thats required to actually pull that off, I dont think that will be an issue. also, I just noticed another flaw with that Idea.

Normally when we are trying to gimp lucario, hes is coming in from the top of the screen so hes going to be above us. so fair on top of his fair, is probably going to be rare.

 

[Kinzer]

I really doubt people need to know that small detail to do it. Isn't it just instinct for anybody to hold away from the blastzone, which is where Sonic's Fair is going to send them 95% of the time?

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm with KID. When it comes to edge guarding a Lucario, fair doesn't seem all that plausible when compared to bair.

When I fight Lucarios, I'm fond of just bairing them once, then hogging the ledge.
Forces them to recover ON level, and allows us to easily punish the lag and toss them back off stage.

It's also free damage that saves/unstales your KO moves (bair, fsmash, dsmash).

 

[Zatchiel]

So it's really that easy to gimp lulu?
.__.
Jeebus, i was always having too much trouble against Lucarios, but this eases it down a tad.

 

[Espy Rose]

As long as you keep them off the level and hog the edge, there's not much they can do.
I won't say it's easy to gimp Lucario.
However, it's easy as heck to edge guard him.

 

[Browny]

Espy, in continuation from the rankings list thread,

which characters do you think sonic actually DOES beat. I dont know of any low tier character you have said that doesnt beat sonic besides the likes of ganon/zelda/jiggs/link/samus.

I find it highly inconsistent that you repeatedly bash sonic and say he loses to everyone (and the extent to which he loses to some), yet you and many others continue to prove this wrong in tournaments.

 

[Espy Rose]

Character vs. Character isn't an end all, be all judge to how well a player does.

A Ganondorf can beat everyone at a tournament, including Ice Climbers.
It's just very improbable.

In my opinion, Sonic beats (My definition is anything 60:40 or better, which I consider to be a "soft-counter" character at the worst):

-Ganondorf
-Link
-Samus
-Zelda
-Jigglypuff
-Lucas
-Sheik

Of course, I doubt you'd agree for some silly reason or another.

The reason Sonic does well in tournaments is because:

1) All of his difficult, high tier match ups are sparse (Falco, Diddy Kong) with the exception of Meta Knight.
or
2) All of his overall difficult match ups are stomped out by other characters (mostly Meta Knight or Snake) at high levels of play (Olimar, Peach, Lucario, Marth, Falco, Diddy Kong, and possibly Toon Link) with the exception of Meta Knight.

Everyone else in the cast that I haven't named yet in this post, he more or less goes anywhere between 45:55-55:45 (pretty much an even match up).

Edit:

Also, I've never said that Sonic loses to everyone. Ever.

 

[Browny]

I meant in the context of whatever discussion comes up in the tier thread, not generally. Often discussed characters like bowser/ness/ike/mario, those sorts of low tier characters. Its not too often sonic vs zelda comes up lol.

dw I agree he beats them too, Id just add falcon

 

[Espy Rose]

My mind changes over time. I can't really answer outside of that.

I wanted to add Falcon, but I just can't quite do that yet.