Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[ShadowLink84]

Of course, I doubt you'd agree for some silly reason or another.

The reason Sonic does well in tournaments is because:

1) All of his difficult, high tier match ups are sparse (Falco, Diddy Kong) with the exception of Meta Knight.

Actually, I think Sonic does quite well against Diddy Kong.
I am not too sure about Falco but it doesn't seem THAT bad.

2) All of his overall difficult match ups are stomped out by other characters (mostly Meta Knight or Snake) at high levels of play (Olimar, Peach, Lucario, Marth, Falco, Diddy Kong, and possibly Toon Link) with the exception of Meta Knight.

O_o

Marth?
Peach?
Olimar?

Marth, Peach and Oli are not that bad for Sonic.
I would actually believe Lucario, Falco, Diddy and TL to be more difficult.
I absolutely HATE fighting TL.

Everyone else in the cast that I haven't named yet in this post, he more or less goes anywhere between 45:55-55:45 (pretty much an even match up).

Edit:

Also, I've never said that Sonic loses to everyone. Ever.

**** straight!

We just don't have enough time to win!

 

[da K.I.D.]

I watched your set with ozz

the fact that you/your playstyle blows against falco, doesnt mean its sonic worst matchup.

and the fact that you took a set off of Gnes doesnt prove that diddy ISNT a horrible matchup but personally ive never seen it that way.

also, lol @ sonics bad matchups get taken out by mk/snake.

mk/snake IS sonics worst matchup...

I played a few peaches at mlg, didnt seem that hard. all you have to do is... not shield stuff...

 

[Kinzer]

In my opinion, Sonic beats (My definition is anything 60:40 or better, which I consider to be a "soft-counter" character at the worst):


-Sheik

I love you.

So hard.

Right now.

You (may) have no idea.

I'm sorry.

I can't post anything else that's helpful or on-topic.

I'm not the only one who believes Sheik can't do much else aside from beating Gan(n)on, but then again who doesn't?

 

[Browny]

Join the hate club kinzer, sheik ftl

(I never played melee competitively so my bias is based off brawl only )

 

[Espy Rose]

Actually, I think Sonic does quite well against Diddy Kong.
I am not too sure about Falco but it doesn't seem THAT bad.

Marth?
Peach?
Olimar?

Marth, Peach and Oli are not that bad for Sonic.
I would actually believe Lucario, Falco, Diddy and TL to be more difficult.
I absolutely HATE fighting TL.

Even without bananas, Diddy Kong's options far out speed and out range our own. His dtilt alone stomps out any ground approaches we may have, and his utilt out prioritizes everything in the air, even our bair.

Then you need to factor in the bananas and out of shield options Diddy Kong has against us.
It's just a fairly difficult match up. We can't reliable poke and pressure properly whenever Diddy Kong has banana control.

Marth just out ranges the heck out of Sonic, and edge guards him incredibly well. Peach I'd be open-minded enough to admit to a more evened out match up, and Olimar's simply a very frustrating match up.

Olimar controls the heck out of the ground, and we need that ground to run around in.

I will concede though, that Peach isn't that difficult in comparison to those two. However, Marth and Olimar I'd be up to discuss.

I watched your set with ozz

the fact that you/your playstyle blows against falco, doesnt mean its sonic worst matchup.

and the fact that you took a set off of Gnes doesnt prove that diddy ISNT a horrible matchup but personally ive never seen it that way.

also, lol @ sonics bad matchups get taken out by mk/snake.

mk/snake IS sonics worst matchup...

I played a few peaches at mlg, didnt seem that hard. all you have to do is... not shield stuff...

1) You're talking about a style more than two months old.
2) You're crazy if you don't think Sonic loses to Falco. It's not that I lost at all either.
3) I've NEVER said that Diddy isn't a horrible match up. It's one of Sonic's most difficult, in my opinion.

Me beating Gnes/losing to Ozz has very little effect on my views of the Falco/Diddy match ups. I'm aware that my style had a difficult time against Ozz at the time, but that had very little bearing on my view of the match up.

Falco's lasers control the ground. Falco's nair beats everything aerial Sonic has except for bair, and has very little ending lag. Falco's jab beats out most of Sonic's options on the ground.

That's just three moves, and he successfully walls out Sonic with just those three moves. How Falco doesn't outright counter Sonic is beyond me.

I also never said Falco was his worst. It's one of his worst match ups, but not THE worst.

=====

Do Diddy Kongs, Marths, and Falcos not get taken out by Meta Knights and Snakes where you live or what?

Happens here quite often.

And lol @ Snake being Sonic's worst match up.

Oh, and like I said to SL, I could agree with the Peach match. It's not nearly as frustrating as the rest of the characters in the game.

 

[WedginatorX]

Lrn2Powershield.
Powershielding lasers while approaching and canceling spins into shield works, just don't be predictable with it.
You can shield falco's first jab, dodge, and reshield and you're able to grab falco out of his rapid jabs if your timing is right. If the falco crouch cancels the jab, you can uair OoS and send him up. A falco's first instinct when tossed into the air isnt "i must nair, now!" try to read their DI out of uair and juggle them. You CANT be predictable in this MU if you want to win. That's a problem many sonics have against falco. I mean, sometimes it's just good reads, but sometimes it's obvious **** that falco can punish the **** out of.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Peach isn't hard for Sonic because frankly, Peach's don't know how to play Sonic lol

I can assure you, a Peach who plays the match up correctly will make it hell for Sonic

 

[Trent]

I always find Sonic v Peach an endurance match. They're always longer than 6 minutes..

 

[WedginatorX]

I've wound up timing out peaches before since it's mostly a game of patience. I wasn't trying to time the ***** out, but it was dragging out so long and I happened to glance at the timer while I had the lead and there were 27 seconds left.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh definitly, don't be surprised if the game goes on forever/finishes on a time out cause neither side can kill and Sonic's DI can be retardedly good so he lives at loltastic percentages like 180-210%

Really, timing Peach out and running away from her is potentially an excellent strategy for winning against her...but don't let her get the lead or it'll be hell trying to hit her again

 

[da K.I.D.]

Even without bananas, Diddy Kong's options far out speed and out range our own. His dtilt alone stomps out any ground approaches we may have, and his utilt out prioritizes everything in the air, even our bair.

lol @ just downtilt to win.

also, dont both of those moves do less than 5%? I dont mind get beat out by those moves three or 4 times, if the one time I do get in, ill do more damage then the 4 times I lost the exchange...

Then you need to factor in the bananas and out of shield options Diddy Kong has against us.

1st of all, there is a period of time when the diddy pulls out a nanner where hes in lag... its actually quite rare for the diddy to pull out a banana and have sonic NOT in a postion to take it away before he can grab it.

2ndly, if diddy has the banana control, who made the law that you have to touch his shield? just dance around until he gets anxious and tries to throw it at you or shoot peanuts or something. If you dont hit his shield you dont have to worry about oos options.

It's just a fairly difficult match up. We can't reliable poke and pressure properly whenever Diddy Kong has banana control.

This is quite true, but Id say its at the very least, an annoying matchup from the other side, seeing as the same applys when the roles are reversed.

Marth just out ranges the heck out of Sonic, and edge guards him incredibly well. Peach I'd be open-minded enough to admit to a more evened out match up, and Olimar's simply a very frustrating match up.

heres the way I see marth.
Marth v fox is 50-50. fox has short stubby limbs and crap range on most of his moves, and thus gets ranged even harder than sonic, but hes fast enough that he can get inside and wreck marth anyway. Same concept should apply to sonic.

olimar.
A lot of the time, olimar doesnt beat characters, he beats people. when you come up against a character with such a devoted camp and defense game, a lot of people just dont know what to do. sonic has the mobility to get inside him safely, it just requires a lot of work. its not super bad, persay, but as you said, its quite annoying.

Olimar controls the heck out of the ground, and we need that ground to run around in.

false, against this character, we dont NEED to run around on the ground. its just our first inclination. its probably a lot safer, and a lot more effective to do a fair amount of aerial manuvering in this matchup. f smash is very low to the ground, as is down smash, and grab cant even hit you if youre in the air. so just moving in the air, takes away 2-3 of the characters best options.

3) I've NEVER said that Diddy isn't a horrible match up. It's one of Sonic's most difficult, in my opinion.

I dont have a mass of experience vs diddy aside from like 1 doubles match with adhd, and random people in my area playing him in friendlies, but with the knowledge I have on the character, I cant see this matchup being so much more difficult than other matches.

Falco's lasers control the ground. Falco's nair beats everything aerial Sonic has except for bair, and has very little ending lag. Falco's jab beats out most of Sonic's options on the ground.

Lasers:
Lasers are the reason sonic can win this matchup... I swear i get like 3-5 spindash combos on falco every stock just because I charge when he jumps to double laser and hit him on his landing. Im not going to say their bad against sonic, but theyre just sooo much less effective than they are against, say, ddd.

Nair:
doenst up air beat nair? it has to beat it from underneath, but even from the sides it seems like it would work... also, we need to get better and sdi that shiz.

Jab.
It kind of ***** us, no two ways about that. the range on that move is madd gross. but if we can start being more consistent about the sdi to up/f air punish on the rapid jabs, it can lower the **** level on the move on us.

That's just three moves, and he successfully walls out Sonic with just those three moves. How Falco doesn't outright counter Sonic is beyond me.

I guess that means that IM beyond you... =P

I also never said Falco was his worst. It's one of his worst match ups, but not THE worst.

sonics worst matchups:
MK/ICs maybe tied for the worst, I cant decide.
Snake/Wario. Cant tell whos worse here either.

nobody else imo really comes close to the stupid level of fighting those 4.

Do Diddy Kongs, Marths, and Falcos not get taken out by Meta Knights and Snakes where you live or what?

Happens here quite often.

And lol @ Snake being Sonic's worst match up.

My two statements about MK/Snake were connected. I was loling at MK/Snake taking out sonics worst matchups, because all that means is that MKs and snakes are just taking out other MKs and Snakes.

 

[Trent]

ICs aren't that bad. Bait their crappy grab range and don't get predictable. I'd rather fight IC then De3, since that penguin's grab range is a crap ton longer, takes forever to die, and has a crud ton of kill moves.

Snake's not that bad either. I fight Snake all the time so I guess I have practice against him, but he really just doesn't bother me compared to MK/Wario.

..I think we're all in agreement that MK and Wario blow?

 

[da K.I.D.]

ICs are stupid because they can get stupid lucky grabs and than kill you. like youll hit one of them with like a spindash or some other move thats not supposed to be punished, and than one of them will shield it, and the other one will grab you in the hitlag.

just stupid gay stuff like that thats not supposed to happen.

 

[Espy Rose]

lol @ just downtilt to win.

also, dont both of those moves do less than 5%? I dont mind get beat out by those moves three or 4 times, if the one time I do get in, ill do more damage then the 4 times I lost the exchange...

Never said dtilt won him the match.

Diddy has follow ups on the dtilt that can only be avoided by jumping or hitting upB, both of which put you in a terrible position against him in the air.

1st of all, there is a period of time when the diddy pulls out a nanner where hes in lag... its actually quite rare for the diddy to pull out a banana and have sonic NOT in a postion to take it away before he can grab it.

2ndly, if diddy has the banana control, who made the law that you have to touch his shield? just dance around until he gets anxious and tries to throw it at you or shoot peanuts or something. If you dont hit his shield you dont have to worry about oos options.

1) Always going for the banana after a pull also puts Sonic in a punishable position. Above that, Diddy Kong has methods for avoiding punishment while spawning bananas. By going for a banana that Diddy Kong pulls, you risk getting smacked around by his faster aerials.

2) That part more or less is when you're not in the lead. When you're not in the lead, it becomes an obligation to eventually attack your opponent.

And what if he never reacts? Unreasonable, but it's happened to me on several occasions, where the opponent simply just sits there as I try to force them to take an action.

Heck, I've done it to other Sonics too.

Oh, and Sonic can actually outrun a glide tossed fthrow banana if you space the bair so the very tip of the hitbox hits Diddy's shield.

However, just "running around" until they do something doesn't put you at any type of advantage. Diddy Kong has safe options on Sonic if he's just "running around".

heres the way I see marth.
Marth v fox is 50-50. fox has short stubby limbs and crap range on most of his moves, and thus gets ranged even harder than sonic, but hes fast enough that he can get inside and wreck marth anyway. Same concept should apply to sonic.

Fox also has faster, stronger KO moves, a projectile that Marth can't block without eating up his shield or using downB (why), and an auto-snap on the ledge with his recovery options.

All Sonic has over Fox on the Marth match up is ground speed and recovery flexibility, most of which doesn't work if the Marth just throws out a properly spaced aerial.

false, against this character, we dont NEED to run around on the ground. its just our first inclination. its probably a lot safer, and a lot more effective to do a fair amount of aerial manuvering in this matchup. f smash is very low to the ground, as is down smash, and grab cant even hit you if youre in the air. so just moving in the air, takes away 2-3 of the characters best options.

I disagree. The air seems like a valid option because it's your only option vs. Olimar.
You do realize that Olimar beats everything we have in the air as well, right?

All we have is bair to space, and improperly doing so gets you grabbed.

I love how you didn't even bother to mention Olimar's amazing usmash, by the way.

I dont have a mass of experience vs diddy aside from like 1 doubles match with adhd, and random people in my area playing him in friendlies, but with the knowledge I have on the character, I cant see this matchup being so much more difficult than other matches.

I've played Gnes several times in recent events, and I've played against other Diddy Kong players in the past like Fliphop, Le Thien (before he quit), Dao, and Dekar. I feel like I have plenty of knowledge and experience vs the character, and I can EASILY see this match up being much more difficult than others.

Lasers:
Lasers are the reason sonic can win this matchup... I swear i get like 3-5 spindash combos on falco every stock just because I charge when he jumps to double laser and hit him on his landing. Im not going to say their bad against sonic, but theyre just sooo much less effective than they are against, say, ddd.

A smart Falco shouldn't be shooting many lasers while the Sonic's grounded.

Nair:
doenst up air beat nair? it has to beat it from underneath, but even from the sides it seems like it would work... also, we need to get better and sdi that shiz.

It beats it from underneath, but that's situational at best. At the same time, a Falco only uses nair if he's below you. It's completely useless vs. Sonic at any other time.

Jab.
It kind of ***** us, no two ways about that. the range on that move is madd gross. but if we can start being more consistent about the sdi to up/f air punish on the rapid jabs, it can lower the **** level on the move on us.

They can shield/grab before the fair/uair hitbox comes out. The only way those moves punish is if they've already committed themselves to the rapid jab.

I guess that means that IM beyond you... =P

sonics worst matchups:
MK/ICs maybe tied for the worst, I cant decide.
Snake/Wario. Cant tell whos worse here either.

nobody else imo really comes close to the stupid level of fighting those 4.

I doubt that ICs are the worst. Sonic has methods to deal with them, and separating the Ice Climbers is so easy it hurts.

Not to mention Sonic can legitimately 0-death Nana if he does so.

Wario's never felt that bad either, though the only experience I have to work off of is DMG, PhantomX, Bassem, and Jnig, so I might not have as much knowledge as I should.

It just doesn't feel like a bad match up to me. Everything Wario does, Sonic has a practical answer to. It doesn't work that way with other characters.

And Snake being one of Sonic's worst match ups? No way.

=====

@KID's above post:

Rule #1 vs. ICs: Don't spin dash unless there's plenty of lag to punish.

Oh, and don't get grabbed.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Even without bananas, Diddy Kong's options far out speed and out range our own. His dtilt alone stomps out any ground approaches we may have, and his utilt out prioritizes everything in the air, even our bair.

The issue concerning Utilt vs Bair is because of the way the hitbox interacts.
The disjoint doesnt have to compete since its horizontal vs vertical.

As for Dtilt, powershield that ****.

Then you need to factor in the bananas and out of shield options Diddy Kong has against us.
It's just a fairly difficult match up. We can't reliable poke and pressure properly whenever Diddy Kong has banana control.

The main issue with Diddykong is that, he has so much s , so it can be very overwhelming when you're in the middle of things. Truth be told, itisn't as bad as it seems.
You should never directly challenge Diddy for control of the bananas unless you are sure you can get one.
What I liket o do is wait him out. Bananas are going to have to be respawned and Diddy doesnt do very well against people who stay ont he edge due tot he nature of his tools.

If you stay ont he edge, he'll be forced to respawn during which he's vulnerable.

Its not an easy matchup, but I dont think its very hard either.
You just have to play it like you would Lucario, patiently.

Marth just out ranges the heck out of Sonic, and edge guards him incredibly well.

It also works viceversa.
marth has problems getting back onto the ledge too.
So you should take advantage, dont try to fight directly either.
I do agree its a disadvantaged matchup, but its nowhere near as bad as people would deem.

Peach I'd be open-minded enough to admit to a more evened out match up, and Olimar's simply a very frustrating match up.

From my experience against multiple peach's, I am somewhat tempted to say it may be close to even.
Just be wary of the double hit from Nair and Fair. Its nasty.
Olimar is just gay.
I HATE facing him, HATE it, but its not as bad as I would liket o think.

Edit: Espy, Oimar's aerials lose out to Sonic's aerials. Other than purple.
I still hate the bugger.

 

[Espy Rose]

I seriously think you're undermining the difficulty of dealing with Diddy Kong's options, SL.
It's not as simple as "just powershield it."

Smart Diddy Kong's aren't that predictable.

Waiting out a Diddy Kong's bananas becomes a problem if he has the lead. You can only wait so long before time starts working against you, and suddenly you're fighting Diddy Kong, the player, AND the time limit.

Stalling out on the ledge limits you even more when dealing with Diddy Kong. He has peanuts, bananes, and his speedy attacks for you to deal with.

Diddy Kong IS a very difficult match up.
Not his worse, but it's still bad.

=====

I admit that Marth has recovery issues, but Marth has a much easier time pressuring Sonic off of the level than the other way around. It's reasonable to assume that Sonic will be spending more time recovering than Marth would, in that case. It's not as bad as people think, but it's still worse than plenty of Sonic's other difficult match ups.

=====

I still won't give up the idea that Peach soft counters Sonic.
You can't punish lag that doesn't exist.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I seriously think you're undermining the difficulty of dealing with Diddy Kong's options, SL.
It's not as simple as "just powershield it."

Smart Diddy Kong's aren't that predictable.

Waiting out a Diddy Kong's bananas becomes a problem if he has the lead. You can only wait so long before time starts working against you, and suddenly you're fighting Diddy Kong, the player, AND the time limit.

Stalling out on the ledge limits you even more when dealing with Diddy Kong. He has peanuts, bananes, and his speedy attacks for you to deal with.

Diddy Kong IS a very difficult match up.
Not his worse, but it's still bad.

Of course its never so simple as powershield it.
The reason you camp out on the ledge is to force him to respawn the banana, to force an opening after all the pressure he applies.

Yes, it becomes more difficult when Diddy has a lead, in which case you really are forced to play patiently because of how much stuff he throws at you.
It is times like these I wish we had Fox's Usmash.
Would have been legit!]*coughs*

I think its very much momentum based, but is easier for Diddy to keep going because of how he can control the bananas as well as the fact he spawns them to begin with.

Peanuts really should be too difficult, I usually grab them out of midair and hurlt hem back immediately.
Bananas are always the main issues.
Peanuts can be broken, bananas hurt and make you trip.

I do think that Diddy has an advantage but I am not sure if we agree ont he degree to it.
Since I can understand what you mean by difficult but the extent is "eh" you know?

I admit that Marth has recovery issues, but Marth has a much easier time pressuring Sonic off of the level than the other way around. It's reasonable to assume that Sonic will be spending more time recovering than Marth would, in that case. It's not as bad as people think, but it's still worse than plenty of Sonic's other difficult match ups.

nooo.
marth has issues with being ledge guarded because he lacks options.
If Marth takes a shorter time to recover than you, then you did something wrong.

I don't think its an issue of range that hurts Sonic, its anissue of speed.
He leaves really small gaps to punish, just like MK.

I still won't give up the idea that Peach soft counters Sonic.
You can't punish lag that doesn't exist.

Don't punish the lag, punish the startup.
Just be wary of the float shenanigans.
If she Nairs, she renews the hitbox once she lets go of the Nair, so its 2 hits instead of one.

What I mean is, play really, really, really gay.
She wants to float? Thats cool, you just wont approach.
She has a percent lead?
You'll need to space her with Uair.
Bair will just get Faired, so your safest option is with Uair.
I also really like spinshot for some reason that I cannot remember.

 

[Espy Rose]

nooo.
marth has issues with being ledge guarded because he lacks options.
If Marth takes a shorter time to recover than you, then you did something wrong.

I don't think its an issue of range that hurts Sonic, its anissue of speed.
He leaves really small gaps to punish, just like MK.

It's an issue of range + speed, honestly.
I won't comment on the recovery bit, because we just plain don't agree on that.

Don't punish the lag, punish the startup.
Just be wary of the float shenanigans.
If she Nairs, she renews the hitbox once she lets go of the Nair, so its 2 hits instead of one.

What I mean is, play really, really, really gay.
She wants to float? Thats cool, you just wont approach.
She has a percent lead?
You'll need to space her with Uair.
Bair will just get Faired, so your safest option is with Uair.
I also really like spinshot for some reason that I cannot remember.

What move of hers has reasonably punishable start up lag besides fair?
You'd have to be able to preemptively predict anything she does in the air to effectively punish it if it's not fair.

 

[Trent]

I dunno if it's just me, but when I've already used my double jump, I find it a pain in the *** to land on the ground against a good Marth if I'm above them. Just gotta save that double jump before you hit the ground so you can mind game him with spinshot, normal spindash, etc.

What do you do if you're out of jumps though? It's frickin' hard to get back on the ground.

 

[NH Cody]

I dunno if it's just me, but when I've already used my double jump, I find it a pain in the *** to land on the ground against a good Marth if I'm above them. Just gotta save that double jump before you hit the ground so you can mind game him with spinshot, normal spindash, etc.

What do you do if you're out of jumps though? It's frickin' hard to get back on the ground.

How about...airdodge then DI away?

ASC cancel?

ASC cancel grab?

Spring > Dair > nair?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Don't punish the lag, punish the startup.

This is a good mentallity to have if Peach is intent on spamming Fair or daftly decided to pull up some Turnips but isn't relly practical against anything else

Just be wary of the float shenanigans.
If she Nairs, she renews the hitbox once she lets go of the Nair, so its 2 hits instead of one.

This...really isn't something you need to be worried about. If anything, its the 2nd hit of Bair you want to be worried about because that's much much more likely to hit due to Peach moving towards the person she's hit. Double hit Nair will hardly ever happen and certainly never at high percents

What I mean is, play really, really, really gay.
She wants to float? Thats cool, you just wont approach.

If Peach has the percent lead and Sonic doesn't approach, he loses quite simply

She has a percent lead?
You'll need to space her with Uair.
Bair will just get Faired, so your safest option is with Uair.

I very very much disagree with this. Uair simply doesn't have enough vertical range to stop spaced Fairs and Bair (heck, even Dair if she's diagonally above you)

I also really like spinshot for some reason that I cannot remember.

You enjoy getting punished?
Spinshot (or rather, spin anything) is asking to be Naired

I understand that you're saying patience is key SL but the problem is that Sonic has virtually no tools minus sliding shield and Bair to penetrate Peach's defenses

Spoiler

insert innuendo here

And thats provided she spaces incorrectly
Turnips aren't useful against Sonic which is a massive plus for Sonic but Peach competely outprioritizes, out spaces and outpunishes Sonic in everything

Sonic lacks range, auto snap to the ledge recovery, priority, fast/long range OoS options and safe options against Ground Floating Nairs. These are all things Peach can really really take advantage of

Honestly, I've looked at both sides of the match up and I can assure you that when Peach plays correctly, its very tough for Sonic

If Peach plays incorrectly or doesn't know what she's doing though, its something like 60-40, maybe even 70-30 Sonic depending how clueless the Peach is

 

[Espy Rose]

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Peach is difficult to deal with.

 

[Trillion]

I doubt that ICs are the worst. Sonic has methods to deal with them, and separating the Ice Climbers is so easy it hurts.

I don't play many Ice Climbers and I don't separate them very easily when I do. Share?

 

[Trillion]

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Peach is difficult to deal with.

I hate fighting Peach and I also recommend banning Brinstar against her. I played a great Peach on lag-fi on AiB ladder. I won round 3 by timing the clock out and being ahead by 1% on Brinstar.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im pretty sure up smash beats most if not all of peachs aerials. But up smash is stupid laggy and really hard to space the hyphen correctly.



sonic can seperate the ics but everyone can do that.

Sonic can treat nana like a sandbag and beat on her when they are seperate, but everyone can do that too, thats not what equals a non-**** matchup vs Ics. its only when you have some thing obsurdedly broken to seperate them with out even trying(tornado, lucarios dair, certain characters throws), can out space them consistently (snake, ROB), AND have something stupid strong to OHKO nana with (snake/ike f smash, shuttle loop) THEN you have a not **** matchup with the ICs. sonic has maybe one of those things... but its clearly not enough.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah.

By no means does Sonic have an even match up with Ice Climbers.
Despite how easy it is to deal with Nana, Sonic still has very little he can do when they are together.
It's pretty difficult until Nana is gone.

If I gave it a number, 55:45 or 60:40.
Bad, but easily manageable.

 

[Trent]

Bad, but easily manageable.

Just like every match up ever.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This...really isn't something you need to be worried about. If anything, its the 2nd hit of Bair you want to be worried about because that's much much more likely to hit due to Peach moving towards the person she's hit. Double hit Nair will hardly ever happen and certainly never at high percents

Actually its a big thing to worry about at low percents because it takes effect as SOON as she lets go of the float.
So if she hits with the fair,s he releases the float, and you take another hit because the animation is still effect.

So instead of a typical 11 or 12%, you take 22 or 23%.
So its also an issue where she overpowers you too, making the margin of error even smaller.

If Peach has the percent lead and Sonic doesn't approach, he loses quite simply

you have a habit of line quoting like i do.
XD

I very very much disagree with this. Uair simply doesn't have enough vertical range to stop spaced Fairs and Bair (heck, even Dair if she's diagonally above you)

Woah woah woah.
uair has plenty of vertical range (on the second hit) and the first hit has a good disjoint.
Bair doesnt have enough of a disjoint.
Fair gets crunched.
Dair is crap.
Nairis crap.

Uair is your safest choice because it is the most disjointed move you can use.
The issue is that it has a blind spot diagonally which her Fair can get at more easily.

You enjoy getting punished?

I don't spinshot in a position where she can punish me.

Stop spinshotting at her rick. Its bad.
XD

Spinshot (or rather, spin anything) is asking to be Naired

Read the above.

I understand that you're saying patience is key SL but the problem is that Sonic has virtually no tools minus sliding shield and Bair to penetrate Peach's defenses

Spoiler

insert innuendo here

Only bowser can penetrate it. He has the most experience. *cough!*
The only tool he has to directly contend with is Uair, Bair which she can contend with rather decently.

And thats provided she spaces incorrectly
Turnips aren't useful against Sonic which is a massive plus for Sonic but Peach competely outprioritizes, out spaces and outpunishes Sonic in everything

Dair<Uair
Fair>Uair
Bair is...meh

you're really forced to play careful, yes even if she has a percent lead.

Sonic lacks range auto snap to the ledge recovery,

Why would you need auto snap?
ell we do, but only after liek frame 4-6 or something.

priority, fast/long range OoS options and safe options against Ground Floating Nairs. These are all things Peach can really really take advantage of

Honestly, I've looked at both sides of the match up and I can assure you that when Peach plays correctly, its very tough for Sonic

If Peach plays incorrectly or doesn't know what she's doing though, its something like 60-40, maybe even 70-30 Sonic depending how clueless the Peach is

Let's not do this whole "if neither knows it or if peach is clueless"

Also, I really think you're exaggerating, especially when you said Uair doesnt have enough vertical range to contend with Fair which is longest horizontally.
I am very sure that the main reason its so frustrating, is because you don't play patiently enough or gay enough.
Furthermore, why is your spinshot getting punished?
Peach has TERRIBLE vertical movement.

Like any other matchup, you cant directly contend with Peach.
in fact, its the same thing whn you are fighting Luigi. outprioritizes, he has faster attacks. Faster KO moves, more KO moves.
But by all means it isn't 7-3 because his mobility is poor.

It's really a amtchup where you must take advantage of your mobility to the most to get anything out of the matchup, otherwise she'll just step onyou.
I reallydon't believe it to be a terrile matchup, only because then we'd have to say the same of, many many other characters who share similar capabilities.
Hell Marth would be a hard counter and his attacks are just as fast, disgustngly powerful when tippered, and he has a DP, great vertical movement.

Play the matchup like you were Wario, because I do think everyone knows what they should be doing, but just don't do it.

I tend to play a slower SOnic, so perhaps thats why I dont have such an issue with Marth and Peach but then have issues with other characters like Luigi @_@

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic has the same problems vs. Peach as he does vs. Luigi.
There's no lag to punish.

 

[da K.I.D.]

but he also has the same advantages over them.

bair and mobility

Im realising more and more than every time sonic has a bad matchup, you end up spending most of the match in a "spam bair" mode. The thing that indicates a matchup thats not **** or that sonic wins is his ability to do other things aside from bair all day lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Actually its a big thing to worry about at low percents because it takes effect as SOON as she lets go of the float.
So if she hits with the fair,s he releases the float, and you take another hit because the animation is still effect.

So instead of a typical 11 or 12%, you take 22 or 23%.
So its also an issue where she overpowers you too, making the margin of error even smaller.

Double hit Nairs and Bairs, ok but like I said they'll only happen at super low percents and the weak hit tags on about half the damage the strong hit does
Double hit Fairs don't exist (good lord I wish they did xD)

you have a habit of line quoting like i do.
XD

I've never tried it like this until I saw you do it...its catchy

Woah woah woah.
uair has plenty of vertical range (on the second hit) and the first hit has a good disjoint.
Bair doesnt have enough of a disjoint.
Fair gets crunched.
Dair is crap.
Nairis crap.

Uair is your safest choice because it is the most disjointed move you can use.
The issue is that it has a blind spot diagonally which her Fair can get at more easily.

I meant that Fair could beat it out which is why I thought it was a bad idea. Iirc (which tbh I can't xD), Peach's Bair would at least trade hits if not outprioritize Sonics Uair

I don't spinshot in a position where she can punish me.

Stop spinshotting at her rick. Its bad.
XD

:3
Where do you spinshot then?
If you spinshot towards her, then obviously you'll get punished. If you spinshot away, you give her a chance to pull up a Turnip, something she doesn't get to do very often in this match

Only bowser can penetrate it. He has the most experience. *cough!*
The only tool he has to directly contend with is Uair, Bair which she can contend with rather decently.

Dair<Uair
Fair>Uair
Bair is...meh

you're really forced to play careful, yes even if she has a percent lead.

My reasoning for suggesting Bair is because it has more range, so its much easier to bait Peach into a F Tilt/F Smash/Aerial and actually hit her afterwards due to Bairs range. Uair has disjoint, I'll grant you but it involves you shifting Sonic's hurtbox dangerously close to Peach and her disjoint
Sonic's Uair is easily punished if he's trying to use it like a spaced Bair or something, all Peach has to do is pull up a Turnip and chuck it at him as he's landing or Dash Attack him or use Fair/Bair to hit him out of it

Why would you need auto snap?
ell we do, but only after liek frame 4-6 or something.

Its more to do with no auto snap combined with a very bad Dair and other aerials that don't cover Sonic very well. If Sonic recovers high, Peach can chuck Turnips everywhere so Sonic's got to watch out for them. If Sonic recovers so he's goes just above the ledge or close to it, Peach can Nair him
Peach's Nair (whilst ground Floating) poses problems for Sonic when he's recovering, be it grabbing the ledge or landing back onstage because she is essentially a moving hitbox that Sonic can't airdodge land into or Dair into. If he airdodges, Nairs long lastting hitbox catches him out. If he Dairs, Peach can drop her Float and shield

Let's not do this whole "if neither knows it or if peach is clueless"

Alright *hands head in shame*

Also, I really think you're exaggerating, especially when you said Uair doesnt have enough vertical range to contend with Fair which is longest horizontally.

From my experience it doesn't if Peach is spacing her aerials correctly. Uairs problem is that it doesn't cover Sonic horizontally enough and his head doesn't have a hitbox, making it very open to a SH Nair or F Tilt/F Smash
If you use Uair against Peach and she's Floating above head height for example (although she shouldn't be Floating that high) then I can see how using Uair would work well because you'd hit the blind spot below her Fair/Nair hitbox

I am very sure that the main reason its so frustrating, is because you don't play patiently enough or gay enough.
Furthermore, why is your spinshot getting punished?
Peach has TERRIBLE vertical movement.

Erm..SL...I am a Peach main



Sonic is my secondary but I know what him and Peach are capable of vs each other

Like any other matchup, you cant directly contend with Peach.
in fact, its the same thing whn you are fighting Luigi. outprioritizes, he has faster attacks. Faster KO moves, more KO moves.
But by all means it isn't 7-3 because his mobility is poor.

It's really a amtchup where you must take advantage of your mobility to the most to get anything out of the matchup, otherwise she'll just step onyou.
I reallydon't believe it to be a terrile matchup, only because then we'd have to say the same of, many many other characters who share similar capabilities.
Hell Marth would be a hard counter and his attacks are just as fast, disgustngly powerful when tippered, and he has a DP, great vertical movement.

Play the matchup like you were Wario, because I do think everyone knows what they should be doing, but just don't do it.

I tend to play a slower SOnic, so perhaps thats why I dont have such an issue with Marth and Peach but then have issues with other characters like Luigi @_@

I don't think its 70:30 in her favour, more like 65:35 because Sonic can win, he just has to play really really gay and extremely smart like you said. I (well, I hope so) understand the match up both ways and I honestly don't think its that pretty for Sonic
I hate not living in the US, I'd love to show you but I can't

 

[Chis]

One of the few match ups I have decent experience in. 65:35 seems a tad much, feels more like 60:40 imo.

 

[B.A.M.]

okay i just wrote a huge write up this matchup only to have it disappear. So tldr; version.

Played LanceStern and watch X play quite a bit of the West Coast Peaches. It is either even match up or slightly in peaches favor. All her Aerial have a ton of priority but we outrange or outframe them. One or the other. Peach can be punished; go do ur own investigation on her frame data; noone should be saying those things. utilt works nice against her as well as FH uair buffer uair (DJ with it is an option) due to her crappy AD. up angeled ftilt is nice if she likes to land with those spaced fairs she'll land on the ftilt hitbox first.

Spin dashes are good given you play as u should always play with them; reactionary. Its peach; she has priority, shes prolly going to try to punish u head on so read it and punish the punishment.Use freakin invincibility frames; u can just land camp her with spin dash. usmash is nice as well; hard aiming is a dumb excuse. Also learn Dacus its exponentially easier to hit with and if far safer than hyphen smash. Sonic + items = greatness. save bair mid- high percents and bthrow off stage or something then read and bair. Running past anything higher than a GF instantly gives u a better positioning. Crappy AD means land camping fsmashes all day. or land camping with turn around dsmashes. Fair and uair OoS help a ton. Buffer all day. Pay attention to her follow ups; many of them are a frame shy of being true combos. Escaping those strings has to be done quickly.

Jab can be punished dependent on ur range; dash attack has two hit blah blah. seriously just buffer punishes, uair alot, run around throw off and bair. Makes life with peach exponentially easier.

 

[B.A.M.]

Going back to ur previous topic, a good diddy is difficult for sonic. no doubt about that. I used to play Dao all day everyday, and i can tell you his naners arent the only issues as Espy has stated. However, when we get a naner in our hand SDSCT ( spin dash shield cancel toss) and ASCT combined with our jump cancel toss, glide tosses, and regular cancels, we become behemoths. know ur basic true combos with ur naners. We get ridiculous cross ups and everything. Guarenteed gimps with naner + spring. Things like sdr>sdj>footstool>bair>glidetoss>blah should be commonplace. If you have all seen dekars nana control, i like to emulate that with sonic, i believe it gives positive results vs diddy. Dairing a diddy at the right time + ledgehog is a great way to setup the spring gimp. Nairs soft hitbox is good for that as well. Sh ff uairs = greatness. I know u have some decent stuff with naners Espy, but i think with consistency in our naner setups we get alot of weight. Using a naner to land camp is stupidly easy with sonic. We really do get some nice frame traps out of them. buffering things out of SDSC help in the matchup too. Know when his foxtrot ends cuz it kills when u think u have a punish on his dash, only to get it shielded and thrown due to hit short foxtrot.

I dont have a clue how ur getting walled by Falco tbh Espy; even DEHF couldnt do that ish on me. if you and mid-close range u can spin charge and wait, Spin dash thru the laser with timing and punish. Dash attack any opening. dash and uair crossup. reacting at that area is easy as well. If they phantasm ftilt, release spin-dash with proper timing, etc. jab is ****;however we should never be that close. The only problem i really have with this matchup is the kill. I really dont know what to look for when killing a competent falco. ( fsmash phantasm works but a good falco is cancelling all day) i think its a hard matchup solely on that. I kept going toe to toe with DEHF but i could not get that kill. Yeah story of sonics life, but at least characters like Snake/MK give u a kill in form of cypher/ early aerial nade pull and nado/SL.

oh and whoever believes Snake is one of the worst matchups now should really check themselves. That matchup is definitely not that bad anymore.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You talk like a very skilled experienced player, but I never see you place in tourneys, I keep a very close eye on ankokus thread too. Why is this?

Before, I would have said this in a combative way due to the fact that youre always bashing most of us, but now Im just curious.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Double hit Nairs and Bairs, ok but like I said they'll only happen at super low percents and the weak hit tags on about half the damage the strong hit does
Double hit Fairs don't exist (good lord I wish they did xD)

They don't?
I could ahve sworn that canceling the float during the animation of an attack aauses the hitbox to renew.
But hell I am NOT complaining.

I've never tried it like this until I saw you do it...its catchy

*has corrupted someone*

I meant that Fair could beat it out which is why I thought it was a bad idea. Iirc (which tbh I can't xD), Peach's Bair would at least trade hits if not outprioritize Sonics Uair

I am not sure on this actually, I don't often try to attack directly with Sonic and I havent seen peach's hitboxes.

:3
Where do you spinshot then?
If you spinshot towards her, then obviously you'll get punished. If you spinshot away, you give her a chance to pull up a Turnip, something she doesn't get to do very often in this match

Spinshot over and behind.
Not directly at her.
They nerfed the crap out of Peach's second jump, you should not have problems crossing her up.

My reasoning for suggesting Bair is because it has more range, so its much easier to bait Peach into a F Tilt/F Smash/Aerial and actually hit her afterwards due to Bairs range. Uair has disjoint, I'll grant you but it involves you shifting Sonic's hurtbox dangerously close to Peach and her disjoint
Sonic's Uair is easily punished if he's trying to use it like a spaced Bair or something, all Peach has to do is pull up a Turnip and chuck it at him as he's landing or Dash Attack him or use Fair/Bair to hit him out of it

It shouldn't be that vulnerable.
her throw takes more than 3 frames.
Unless she is already on the ground you really shouldn't be getting hit afterwards.
I like Bair, its safe on block (as long as you run away afterwards) but its iffy for me.
I've had much better results with Uair so I am probably off.

Its more to do with no auto snap combined with a very bad Dair and other aerials that don't cover Sonic very well. If Sonic recovers high, Peach can chuck Turnips everywhere so Sonic's got to watch out for them. If Sonic recovers so he's goes just above the ledge or close to it, Peach can Nair him
Peach's Nair (whilst ground Floating) poses problems for Sonic when he's recovering, be it grabbing the ledge or landing back onstage because she is essentially a moving hitbox that Sonic can't airdodge land into or Dair into. If he airdodges, Nairs long lastting hitbox catches him out. If he Dairs, Peach can drop her Float and shield

well Dairing is a bad idea anytime someone is below. Sonic just lacks the aerial momentum.
To be honest, I like recovering high.
Even if she throws a turnip, I usually catch it and toss it down afterwards to cover myself.
Its much safer than coming to her directly.
Have you tried that? her aerial speed is slower so you might be able to outrun her that way.

Alright *hands head in shame*/quote]
I do it too.

From my experience it doesn't if Peach is spacing her aerials correctly. Uairs problem is that it doesn't cover Sonic horizontally enough and his head doesn't have a hitbox, making it very open to a SH Nair or F Tilt/F Smash
If you use Uair against Peach and she's Floating above head height for example (although she shouldn't be Floating that high) then I can see how using Uair would work well because you'd hit the blind spot below her Fair/Nair hitbox

Uair isnt a move that can be used effectively against ground opponents. Unlike Fair and Bair, you cant go into another double jump, so the only time it has use is for when she is floating.
Otherwise I space Bair for a grounded Peach.

Erm..SL...I am a Peach main



Sonic is my secondary but I know what him and Peach are capable of vs each other

I secondary Marth.
=p

I don't think its 70:30 in her favour, more like 65:35 because Sonic can win, he just has to play really really gay and extremely smart like you said. I (well, I hope so) understand the match up both ways and I honestly don't think its that pretty for Sonic
I hate not living in the US, I'd love to show you but I can't

Me and you both dude.
=(

 

[B.A.M.]

Tbh KID i dont really report my placings even my good ones (I also go by the name BAM) ; and I cant really roll out to tourneys much due to studying for the MCAT and my 2 website jusjerk.com and jerkclothing.com. Im also trying to get back into shape for Track. However I play with Haze and Tyrant on a regular basis as well a quite a bit of the top ranked players of West Coast. I played with X quite a bit to during his duration on the West Coast. Even before Dao moved to Texas we used to play nonstop dudes like a brother to me. and Lol on the bashing; im not trying to bash anyone here. u might be the only exception, but thats all love.

Only reason I converse regarding anything in such a manner is so that ppl read or at least think about it. This is a place to bounce ideas off each other; one sonic main to another. If you disagree with my post, then id love to hear why in detail man. I want us all to get better. Our character has flaws yes, but I believe that he is capable of more than we all have achieved. X destroyed a lot of people down here with his solid buffering and his ridiculous canceling. Theres so much little things though that X didnt know that we know. Even more I think theres more that can be found between all of us here.

I used to lurk this place a bit, and see the same ideas tossed around. We need more different opinions so this board as a whole can get to that next level. I mean i remember when ppl were hating on "dumb" RATS, meanwhile X was working on cancels in the same manner. And it was working. It finally took X visit to the West Coast to see that those techniques can be a legitimate strat. Tons of things Tenki found long ago are just sitting there not being used. Then some odd time later someone does some "trick" with it and every1 is like o dang thats crazy uthrow> spring> dair onto spring>bair. Or my favorite Dair hit the opponent and the sping>uair>uair spring L cancel combo.

And then even things like our frame data. Why dont we have any info on how decay affects our moveset or if anything gives use advantage frame wise? Even if we dont have a move that will directly 'combo' into such a thing, that could provide us with a deeper look into what the opponent is capable of doing in that scenario which aids us with our followups. Or ive seen bair> uthrow of course, but why havent i seen bair>dtilt lock> uthrow/utilt/dash attack? I know i got tons of ideas for techs that i havent seen really applied and im sure other here do to. But we gotta bounce them off each other no matter how dumb they may seem.

Hope i answered ur question KID

So theres is your reasoning my friend,

 

[da K.I.D.]

for the record, up throw to up tilt doesnt work on most characters past 10% and doesnt work on even the heaviest characters past like 15% so bair to down tilt to grab is already too much damage for up throw to up tilt to work. also, I hate up tilt because no matter when, where or what % you hit with it at, theres almost 0 followup opportunities for it.

however, bair to down tilts is a good idea and a good setup for something that is otherwise pretty difficult for me to initiate in a competitive match so consider that stolen.

also, I believe that at that point in time when tenki was discovering all this nuance stuff, we couldnt use it anyway just because at the time, we were all so bad, that we had to learn and understand and perfect the basics of the game, so that we could later go about learning the characters and perfecting some of the character specific stuff that was learned but tossed to the way side back in the day. I mean if anybody could go through some of tenkis and mine and even boxobs old (non-trolling) posts and find any other stuff that might have been lost to the sands of time, we might be able to better utilize all that stuff as well.

 

[Espy Rose]

The thing I was messing around with awhile back was actually something Tenki laid out a long time ago.
It was fun to go back and check it out.

It's less like a discovery and more like a remix, because some mechanics have changed since then.

 

[mikeHAZE]

bam, lets smash soon