Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[memphischains]

i'm down with browny

 

[da K.I.D.]

i considered taking sl off of ignore since he got in to the sbr but that last post brought me back to my sences.

of course, kin is on ignore too so i am making this post under the assumption that Dj is responding to SL as opposed to kin.

 

[memphischains]

just because he is in the sbr doesn't mean you have to recognize what he says

97.5% of the SBR is ********.

I specifically have n problem with SL, but i take what he says with a grain a salt, SBR title or not.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I agree that sonics Dair is better to use as a tool for going from point a to point b very quickly. Yea if its abused in the wrong way it'll get punished easily. However if used with the right situation, and timing i can see it as a very useful tool for set ups or at least letting sonic get in CQC

 

[B.A.M.]

LOL if uve never springed past and daired your opponent. As Espy said it works, ive done quite a bit of times to DSF and Haze in tourney. X and i talked about it all the time, it works. Ppl AD because their afraid of the uair, if they AD you get a free dair. Simple as that iono what ur babbling about SL with using the spring as a projectile when u just uair someone. Funnily enough Spring hit to dair works at times too. Its also nice to do when u are "carrying" an opponent via SDJ offstage, you can get the dair and kill at some decent percents due to being located so close to the blast zone. How ridiculous, first sonic in BBR and hes not even aware of this situation. How stupid.

Its not the greatest move in the world but has its uses. As DJ said and any decent sonic should know already, dairing is a great mixup to the spring chase it allows for second guessing if we spring chase. That in turn gives us free uair if buffered vs a ton of the cast. Dairing your opponent also sets up other spring chases. It allows us to spring stall which is so **** good in my opinion. It gives us the ability to switch around a juggle situation into our own by giving us a quick landing. This is seriously why theorycrafting can be so dumb. Ur assuming the opponent already properly identified the situation which just basically disregards one of the main facets of fighting games or life in general; identification. I wouldnt trade soinc's dair for anything; it brilliantly compliments uairs usage hit or no hit.

 

[Espy Rose]

i considered taking sl off of ignore since he got in to the sbr but that last post brought me back to my sences.

of course, kin is on ignore too so i am making this post under the assumption that Dj is responding to SL as opposed to kin.

He actually quoted what I said, but then gave credit for my post to Kinzer.
I don't know what the deal is with that.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

This is seriously why theorycrafting can be so dumb. Ur assuming the opponent already properly identified the situation which just basically disregards one of the main facets of fighting games or life in general; identification. I wouldnt trade soinc's dair for anything; it brilliantly compliments uairs usage hit or no hit.

this id why i never rely on theory crafting to think about matches. I go by what is consistantly used in the characters meta game. ex; IC will like to use grabs, blizzard, ice block. Snake will use nades etc.

But sonics Dair, is a tool i dont see as something he'd use consistently to deal damage/punish. Probably as a mixup. But never consistently.

 

[Tesh]

Alot of things about sonic are really awful in theory and are soooo easy to deal with. However I think anyone that plays sonic can testify that Dair does more than nair does.

Sure the disjoint is spectacular, but at least it has one, unlike nair, since you mentioned that it won't overpower much of anything. Its just like his dash attack, you don't just ram yourself into charged smashes, you bait then punish.

Isn't GnW Keyblade the only dive attack that doesn't have a predictable trajectory?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yo memphis, did you get that vid i sent you?

 

[memphischains]

yeah I did, I messed around a little bit but apparently there was a deadline

 

[Kinzer]

i considered taking sl off of ignore since he got in to the sbr but that last post brought me back to my sences.

of course, kin is on ignore too so i am making this post under the assumption that Dj is responding to SL as opposed to kin.

You are so stupid.

Shadow isn't the best typist. When he quoted "me", it was actually what Espy said, but he got it mixed-up.

Of course the simple thing to do to not look like a ******* is actually listen to what people have to say, instead of writing them off as just one thing.

The worst part is now that you'll find out Espy said it, you probably won't be so contempt.

@#$% you. You make it so hard not to put YOU on the ignore list; but then I'll miss that once in a Blue Moon thing where you actually post something useful.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Kinzer and KID forever.

 

[Browny]

Remember the rules of the internet kinzer

the more you hate it, the stronger it gets

dont bemad

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^^^ The more you make fun of serious people, the funnier it gets. True story just ask the two new SBR members that theory crafted their way in

Isn't GnW Keyblade the only dive attack that doesn't have a predictable trajectory?

Kinda when GW dairs he still cant pivot the key in a huge motion left or right. So he has to land in a pretty predictable area. The animation of his keyblade going down in and of itself is very telegraphed...

Shadow isn't the best typist.

See my sig lol

You are so stupid.

This is why whenever theres a convo about sonic, all i have to do is mention that sonic wont kill below 110% and its auto-win

 

[Kinzer]

See my sig lol



This is why whenever theres a convo about sonic, all i have to do is mention that sonic wont kill below 110% and its auto-win

No, actually that's a different person. When I say "Shadow", I'm referring to Shadowlink84. When I say "Shado", I'm refering to the ShadoFiend we all know and love to troll.

...But what about Jigglypuff? =<

Anyway now that I look back, I wonder why we're even going on about Sonic's Dair/Nair in a MU thread. It's pointless to whine about what Sonic has; only thing you can do is pick up another character or work with what you got (even moreso when it's off-topic. >_>). If it makes any of you feel better, Uair is probably my least successfully used aerial in overall use. Of course when you consider that Dair can get Sonic around it's more used than Nair, but as a direct attack both are very low on a moveset tier-list if one unified list were to ever be made.

I would try to contribute to the MU discussion at hand; but let's be honest here, how often is this MU played at a competitive level? Not enough, I'll tell you that.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Awww I'm loved

I love you guys

 

[WedginatorX]

I would try to contribute to the MU discussion at hand; but let's be honest here, how often is Sonic played at a competitive level? Not enough, I'll tell you that.

^ This is the problem lol. This matchup would be played if anyone actually played Sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

*Ahem*?

We're not the only ones guilty of lack of character representation too~! :<

But in our case, some people don't feel it's worth playing Sonic (in whole or in some cases), so admittingly it does complicate things.

Get out there and wreck some junk people~!

 

[ShadowLink84]

now youre just making me mad.

Why so serious?

"It isn't safe to use for getting to the ground unless the opponet isn the air with you as well.
Otherwise, you'll just get landcamped and punished afterwards."

Those are indeed my words.

go watch some videos of X's sonic. whether you like it or not, he PROVES dair is a good attack because he doesnt just throw it out where he can be punished, majority of the time it is completley safe and puts him in a very favourable position on the ground where the enemy is forced to land with sonic waiting. No smart player is ever going to dair while the opponent cant just sit there and fsmash, thats a completely ridiculous hypothetical situation. Lets apply that logic to idk, how about metaknights tornado where he approaches you in a neutral position hovers it above your shield, doesnt change directions and ends it high up, directly in front of you. wow its turned into a completely unsafe, garbage mobe.

You pretty much agreed with me Dj.
-_-

I said, that its good to use whenthe opponent is int he air with you.
You, counter by providing an example in which the opponent is also in the air with you?
Let alone that against most characters, Sonic has an issue getting in, more often tha n not, they will play it patient and remain on the ground rather than chase after you.
Sine Sonic's mobility is poor, Dair can still get you punished because of that oor mobility.

Its the vertical eersion to Falco's side B.
While it is safe in certain situations, over all, your opponent should be waiting on the ground for you rather than chasing you around in the air like an idiot.

Sonic has what? 5th highest air speed int he game, chasing is pointless wheny ou can simply wait for him to come back down.

Dair just complements his mobility so much... In case you didnt know, sonic not only has the fastest running speed, he has the fastest vertical rise and equal fastest drop which isnt uncontrollable. Without the dair using spring as an escape mechanism, or ever for that matter makes it very unsafe. Its like snakes nades to an extent. Theyre actually not very good by themselves, but when you take into account the fact that you have to approach snake at some time during the match, and his tilts/jab/pivot grab make damaging him very difficult, his nades suddenly become amazing and complement his character infinitely. imagine if you never had to approach snake?

Grenades by themselves are amazin DJ.
1 frame move.
Nice explosion.
Can be dropped by shielding.
held by shielding.
They in themselves are really, really good.

Hell if Sonic had nades he'd be better too (cause anything outside of homing attack is better. Yeah i said that too).

yes Dair gets you to the ground faster.
but it also places you nin a predictable trajectory.
Watch any video in which a high level player takes on a Sonic.
They will ALWAYS punish the dair when possible, ALWAYS.

Simply because really,t he key to playing against Sonic, is benig patient, because once he is above you, where is he going to go?
As I said earlier, I do agree with you in that Dair has its uses, but overall, the situations in which you can use it aren't exactly spectacular due to the cons SOnic has, namely, mobility.

what does nair do... 11%, meciocre knockback and combos out of spindash, while bair and fair do which both do more damage which is about the only time its ever actually safe to use it. dair is way more useful overall, even if you only actually HIT with it once, it will save you a ton of damage and makes followups a lot more safer/spring way more useful than without it.

Fair gets SDI'ed.
Bair can be SDI'ed and miss completely.

You are better off with Upair and Nair in terms of gaining sheer damage.
As I said earlier, certainly id does compliment Sonic's style, but overall, its a bad move.

tl;dr youre never going to convince me dair is his worst aerial. watch X's sonic and TAKE NOTES. It doesnt matter if you think his playstyle is '08 or anything, the undeniable fact is that it WORKS, which is worth infinitely more than any argument youve put forward.

What are you antiban?
you will never convince me its his worst aerial.
The ONLY usage it has, is getting you back down to the ground quickly.
When can this be done safely?
Same thing as when Falco side B's to the stage safely.
When your opponent cannot do anything about it.
In most cases, if they simply stop, play it safe , they can land camp Sonic because of his trajectory.

i considered taking sl off of ignore since he got in to the sbr but that last post brought me back to my senses.

At least spell senses correctly.
Let alone my being in the SBR has NOTHING to do with you having me on ignore.
Frankly, it makes you no better than when Omni placed Overswarm on ignore.

Though it does say something when im rocking purple and you aren't, doesn't it?

just because he is in the sbr doesn't mean you have to recognize what he says

97.5% of the SBR is ********.

I specifically have n problem with SL, but i take what he says with a grain a salt, SBR title or not.

This, this, this, this!

<3 Memphischains.
Colored names does not make me any more qualified (except KID).

stuff.

To correct you on a few things my good sir.

1. Kel was the first Sonic main in the SBR. He changed mains.
2. Can you please have the decency to completely spell out your words? iono? What is that? The name of an Inuit village? Maybe Cherokee.
3. Everything else you said was already mentioned by those before you. please contribute something new. Why does it take 10 people to change a lightbulb? Simply bcause all 10 people want to change the lightbulb.


Edit: Do excuse my terrible typing as of late, I make most of my posts late at night since I am usually at school all day. If I make a quotation error, please point it out.


Edit2: missed something from Espy a page back. Was too tired to get to it.

When did I say to use upB as a projectile?

i misread and was thinking of a situation where you have Side B'ed the opponent, Springed and then Daired.

I really don't think you really don't know what you're talking about, honestly. It's all good though, you don't play Sonic in tournaments, so you lack proper application.

I do play Sonic in tournaments.
I just dont use the name Shadowlink84.

Of course it's not going to work when you're trying it a billion times in a set. Like it or not, SL, people do air dodge, especially in response to Sonic's upB chases in midair.

if they airdodge then it is an error on their part.
You can't honestly say "because they made an error, this move is not as bad"

It's not viable in many situations, and it's not incredibly reliable, but it works when you use it just right.

It's more or less like Sonic's nair in terms of usage.

Agreed.
Its why I compared it to Falco's Side B.
Overall its not very good but it can get things done at times.

 

[Browny]

The ONLY usage it has, is getting you back down to the ground quickly.
When can this be done safely?

100% safety isnt the problem.

Dair IS an option in a wide variety of situations and it CAN and WILL work, Im not going to divulge because this is not an argument. Watch videos of any top Sonic if you need further proof. (seriously do it, for your own sake)

nair has 2 real uses, to attempt to set up a jablock, which isnt even worth mentioning, or comboing out of spindash which is pointless when his other aerials do it better. Not every character is wario, its possible for people to follow DI you know, its the sonic players fault if they DI completely away and dodge the hit.

simply, Sonic's dair gives him +1 option in situations where characters with good dairs like falco do not. This is always a good thing.

 

[ithrowthings]

I would try to contribute to the MU discussion at hand; but let's be honest here, how often is this MU played at a competitive level? Not enough, I'll tell you that.

I've seen this matchup in particular at least 10 times in competitive play. Shugo has fought Lain and Omniswell's IC's on at least 3 occasions. I have fought Meep, Omniswell, Lain and quite a few other ICs on several occasions.

That being said, the matchup is really heavy in the IC's favor. If they ever have a % or stock lead in the match, they're going to stall with ice walls, projectile spam, etc. and it's not fun. The main strategy that has been the most effective thus far for me has been to mix it up between platform camping and baiting attacks/grabs on the ground.

I used to think bair to fsmash works well, but if it gets perfect shielded it's a free grab, so it's still usable, just use with caution and don't spam it. ICs are actually not that bad to get a % lead and even a decent stock lead on them. The main problem is that if you press 1 button incorrectly or your reaction time is a bit off, it's game over.

I can't tell you how many times I've fought Lain's ICs and been in a huge lead just to get grabbed at low %.

Fortunately, the matchup isn't that bad if you aren't fighting one of the top 5 IC mains. I've wrecked several IC players because they try for the grab WAY too much.

My recommended CPs would be

against Lain: If you pick Brinstar, he'll CP either marth or MK.
If you pick RC he'll CP DDD
Most other stages he'll most likely stay ICs.

against Meep: He'll likely stay ICs whatever you pick, so Brinstar if it's legal and PS1 if it's not.

Obviously you wanna ban FD. It pains me every set that I'm banning FD when I'm a Sonic main, but you will not win on FD. period.

A decent CP against a lot of ICs players is PS1. Wait for the stage to change and go nuts. Even if they grab you, the smoke will make them release you after only a couple chain throws so as long as you play the MU right, you have about a 1 minute window within the 8 minutes to attack freely. Don't be afraid to take ICs to time. They're picking a gay character and using a gay strategy, so you are completely justified being gay and taking them to time.

 

[Espy Rose]

i misread and was thinking of a situation where you have Side B'ed the opponent, Springed and then Daired.

if they airdodge then it is an error on their part.
You can't honestly say "because they made an error, this move is not as bad"

Agreed.
Its why I compared it to Falco's Side B.
Overall its not very good but it can get things done at times.

Fair enough then. There's no real argument from this end. Probably an error on my part for asserting that it's a good move "if they air dodge". It's on that nair status. It's okay when given the proper circumstances, but it's something that shouldn't be exercised frequently.

You won't really get an argument from me.

I do play Sonic in tournaments.
I just dont use the name Shadowlink84.

What name DO you go as then, huh? And were are all these tournament results?!
C'mon SL, bring home the ****ing steak!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

100% safety isnt the problem.

....
How is it not?
Sonic's aerial mobility i poor.
Most characters will remain on the ground rather than chase you, at that point, they will land camp you.

Dair IS an option in a wide variety of situations and it CAN and WILL work, Im not going to divulge because this is not an argument. Watch videos of any top Sonic if you need further proof. (seriously do it, for your own sake)

now you're being rather insulting.
Ask any of the top Sonic's about the usage's of Dair.
it is a bad move.
While it DOES have its uses (which we seem to agree on) it does not have as wide a use as you make it out.
It fails as an attack because almost any Uair will beat it out, and it will fail i its vertical use when the opponent remain on the ground.

nair has 2 real uses, to attempt to set up a jablock, which isnt even worth mentioning, or comboing out of spindash which is pointless when his other aerials do it better. Not every character is wario, its possible for people to follow DI you know, its the sonic players fault if they DI completely away and dodge the hit.

DI is not something that is magically better for Wario.
EVERY character is capable of DIing out of Fair, especially the small ones like Olimar.
Bigger characters can get stuck, but they can get out of it, and because hitstun is poor in between hits, if the opponent is grounded, you have to rely on crossing the opponent up to avoid punishment.

If I spindash to Fair, I normally get at most, 8% off the Fair instead of the full 11-13%.
Just because they can DI out of it.
Even less when they SDI out of it.
Its a decent aerial, but for pure damage out put, you are better off with Nair and Uair.
Uair because even if they DI it, the opponent is now stuck above you allowing you to harass with Uairs.
Nair because it is damage that cant be replicated by Fair.

The Sonic player cannot do anything about it if Olimar DI's t the back and down. Sonic's mobility is just too poor to allow it. This goes for almost the entire case, except DDD and DK who are so fat it wouldn't matter anyway.

simply, Sonic's dair gives him +1 option in situations where characters with good dairs like falco do not. This is always a good thing.

Only if the opponent is still in the air Yes.
Sonic has one of the best Uairs due to its stupidly good range and speed.
The problem is Dair can only allow it if the opponent is still in the air.
If they are on the ground, you either reset, or you get land camped.

Fair enough then. There's no real argument from this end. Probably an error on my part for asserting that it's a good move "if they air dodge". It's on that nair status. It's okay when given the proper circumstances, but it's something that shouldn't be exercised frequently.

You won't really get an argument from me.

Okies

What name DO you go as then, huh? And were are all these tournament results?!
C'mon SL, bring home the ****ing steak!!

Meh, I'll use my regular name when I stop sucking so much.
At viridian I went under stinky pete and took 17th place (lost to PatG over a really stupid error.)

I only recently began playing in tournaments again.

I'll bring the steak I promise, and it will be very well marbled.

 

[Espy Rose]

Meh, I'll use my regular name when I stop sucking so much.
At viridian I went under stinky pete and took 17th place (lost to PatG over a really stupid error.)

I only recently began playing in tournaments again.

I'll bring the steak I promise, and it will be very well marbled.

You'd better!!

BBR doesn't really have anyone that can say that they consistently, to this day, go Sonic in those tournament-leveled match ups/have experience at high levels of play. We need SOMEONE in there.

Sure, people can claim to know the Sonic match up against their characters very well, and they can analyze Sonic mains playing against other characters in a competitive tournament environment too, but there's a unique difference between the spectator experience of a character in that setting, and the participating experience in that same setting.

They could say they know Sonic, and they'd be somewhat right, but they can't say that they understand Sonic, because they've never tried him in those high levels of play for themselves. Observation alone is something I've always felt inadequate on its own when it comes to this issue.

I don't know though, I could be wrong. *shrugs*

EDIT: tl;dr
Look at my signature. Summarizes this pretty well.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Espy Kasrani,

The BBR has very adequate members who know Sonic extremely well. You assume too much, just let us do our thing and you just keep doing what you do.
I personally have played enough Sonics to fully understand this character and his (limited) options. Fanboys need to wake up and learn that Sonic is a bad character.

 

[Espy Rose]

Espy Kasrani,

The BBR has very adequate members who know Sonic extremely well. You assume too much, just let us do our thing and you just keep doing what you do.

Fair enough. My apologies.
Wouldn't hurt to ask exactly WHO these members are though, right?
I'll give you Hylian and Shadowlink. They have extensive knowledge. However, I stand by what I said earlier in that Hylian only understands from the outside-looking-in perspective.

I personally have played enough Sonics to fully understand this character and his (limited) options. Fanboys need to wake up and learn that Sonic is a bad character.

What Sonics have you played, might I ask?

@Bold: Did we say anything about that, or mention anything about that?
Now you're the one assuming too much, if that's the case. Not to mention it puts into question my doubt about your first statement.

The bold portion reminds me of the 2008 mentality that the SBR had towards Sonic.

Besides, you're not even a member of the BBR. Lol. I got trolled good.

 

[~TBS~]

woooooooow. lol @ fanboys needing to wakeup. Sonic's a pretty terrible char dude, we all know that. o_O

Spoiler

<3 Gf

Also, pertaining to dair...i dont even use the move. Like...at all. I only spring>dair if i need to spring spawn and quickly reach the ground. And even then, that even sometimes wont even happen. I just cant use dair man. *Just my two cents/take that with what you will*

*Is late
Congrats SL, you deed it. Stinky pete too good?

 

[da K.I.D.]

speed, are you high? dair is an amazing multi purpose move.

have you ever gotten into that rut where all your spindash jumps get baired out of shield?
spindash at them and as soon as it hits the shield jump and immediately dair, works way too good, youll see many examples of this if I get my tourney streamed.

also if you want to keep a lot of pressure on people or mind game them if your caught in a spindash going away ffrom your opponent to the other side of the stage. just jump and dair it. its faster than any other option for turning around and going back to attack the opponent, and it mindgames opponents into thinking they can punish the dair lag from across the stage. which they barely ever will, so you can spotdodge the attack and its a free punish.

also if you spring and youre getting land camped, you can wait till right before you hit the ground in front of them and dair, it will throw off their timing. and theyll get hit by it.

keep in mind none of this is guaranteed but it all works.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dont worry Espy. I'll make sure to get my skill level up.Ididn't play in fall and winter cause of health and insurance issues.



Edit: Congratulations kid, you learned that when your opponent is trained to Bair you OOS whenever you spindash, you can take advantage and use something ELSE to counter them. *claps*


@SM5: Yesh. I got that purple stuff.

 

[~TBS~]

eh, maybe im missing something. though, im not gonna lie, sometimes i do random dairs cause my fingers slip and it hits...wut.

Maybe i ought to try it like you said. Its sounds like more risk than reward though...Im just too scared to use it lol

 

[Browny]

haha gf, nice troll attempt

i got 0 faith in the sbr when it comes to arguing 'options', especially when they tell me a character like sheik has tons of options. im like "ok whats her multiple options when recovering low, options to KO, options to land safely once used double jump, options to stall, options for safe-on-block approaches etc"

"..........."

theyre so bad rofl

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, they are hush hush.
Cloak and dagger stuff.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

the b-sbr of the now is the equivalent of the obama administration getting health care passed/reformed

its all a bunch of dumb monkeys throwing bananas at papers and possibly bats

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9783036#post9783036

i researched this, and there was no stinky pete at veridian no. 7.

veridian number 6 was in like november, 5-6 months ago, which means the comment about recently playing in tourney is a huge POS.

same old SL, full of crap.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So many Blue and Purples names on the Sonic boards, lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7221324#post7221324

Link boards want to talk about Sonic.

 

[Chis]

So a few pages ago, we were talking about putting some life into this thing with write ups and stuff. Thoughts? And who should we do next and also what was the conclusion on the Ice Climbers?

 

[ShadowLink84]

same old SL, full of crap.

....
Viridian City #4 Results 6-20-2009

17: Stinky Pete

Same old KID.
needs to learn to shut his mouth.

Did I not just say I attend tournaments during SPRING and SUMMER.

Why are you looking at FALL and WINTER.

Idiot.

OH and if you want, you can have Ninjalink confirm.
Why?
Since that same tournament, I falcon punched his Sheik.

Oh and last I saw, you were the one claiming to be oh so good, and yet you get your **** packed EVERY time you talk.
Where's my steak!?

 

[Kupo Rose]

I went back

Spoiler

a crapload of

pages and gathered some "writes ups" of some characters that were discussed. This thread needs so much updating lol. Is it possible to just have "How to deal with X character" in quotes posted by other people, like other character boards and use collapse tabs to keep it spaced if needed? The links leading to discussions in the OP are really old and I have to go back to my User CP to change my thread display options and number of ppp in order to see them.

Writes up are all nice and dandy but I'm pretty sure (been lurking long enough) that no one likes can be bothered to do them :/

====================

Here are some quotes I gathered, take what you will?

[collapse="PEACH"]
From 25 September 2009

Just put it at 55-45 or 60-40 Peach I don't know which it is you guys probably know better than I do

Peach is gay, Sonic is...well Sonic is awesome but still annoying to fight against. Getting past Peach's Floating crap will suck if she refuses to approach you and pulls off lagless rubbish on your sheild and pokes and jabs and stuff. Use Bair as Sonic but just be careful since Peach can hit you with her Fair if you miss or just chase you on the floor. Just punish her with Bair and stuff. Recover as best you can, Sonic's recovery is pretty screwy vs Peach anyway, you can die early if you're not careful

DI diagonally upwards against her stuff, she kills horizontally with Fair and the like. Chis is stupid and lives to about 190% if we're both playing well and even if he does mess up a bit he normally survives to around 160%, something stupid like that. Getting a hit on either side is really hard since their range his pretty even and I've found landing a kill move on Sonic is ridiculous since he moves so bloody fast but when coming down with my Fair on his sheild, provided I pull away a bit before and after the Fair comes out Sonic can't grab Peach but then Sonic can just roll away and run away and no one takes any damage and ARRGGGGGHHHHH

Turnips are silly, catch them if she's intent on spamming them, they're not fantastic vs Sonic anyway. I mean, they're Turnips so they're still really good but they lose their effectiveness when Sonic can run up and grab you, probably even if Peach does Turnip slide. If she has got a Turnip out watch her attack pattern and smack her or just wait until it's gone. Glide tossing can be used to punish Sonic's Bairs so be wary of that

If your Peach is silly or a risk taker, get ready to angle an F Smash up when she's recovering and coming towards you with a Fair, it'll probably smack her in the face before the Fair hits you. I've died a few times in the past to this and got a few Peach's doing this as well. Also, if your Peach mispaces her Fair or Jabs, grab her. Grab her when the Fair hits your sheild before she jabs and if she does jab, spotdodge if she goes for a 2nd one or grab her inbetween, judge the distance first so you don't get slapped. Don't go running towards her like a crazy fool cause her D Smash will slip you up. And don't try hit her out of a Fair if she SH Fair's by jumping off the ledge, shes invincible and you'll get hit


Neither side can kill very easily at all when playing carefully meaning this match will go on forever. Space for all your worth and if Peach is doing the same...well, you'll be there for a long time

Counterpick stages?
I'd think YI would form a solid approach with ISDR, Peach can't just float above you and D-air you out of it, or nair, or use ground aerials. Yoshi's Island and Delfino. But I always pick Delfino.

Yoshi's Island makes me cry myself to sleep

The terrain means she can't ground Float and mess up your recovery when if you land and the slanted ledge means she can't SH Fair invincibly from the ledge since she just faceplants into the side

I hate the place

[/collapse]

[collapse="ICE CLIMBERS"]
From 8 October 2009

I would actually say the matchup isnt bad for Sonic. Primarily because as much as it may seem overrated, Sonic's movement and agility really is among the best. Of course, blizzard walls is something hard for any character to get through unless they have a projectile, but Sonic doesnt have to exactly try and push through, simply because we out manuever the IC's in every way.

The grabs arent really the issue, its everything else that the ice climbers possess. Desynched blizzards, blocks, the sheer strength and damage output of their attacks.
Their ability to wall and remain safe.

Of course this doesnt mean SOnic cannot deal with it, once he does make use of the small openings, he can separate the ice climbers and very easily keep them that way due to his superior speed.

Its no hard counter but the IC's do have an advantage.
do agree 60:40 to around 65:35.

Then it was rediscussed again in 10 February 2010.

not even gonna lie. that is one of the reasons i picked up meta. From what I've seen sonic can get away with approaching them for a while if he prepares it beforehad, IC's aren't that mobile, especially in the air, they have to get you as your coming to them. Spin Dashes don't seem too effective if they are both on the field, unless you are close enough for them not to react, and then you are probably in blizzard spam range. just an odd matchup that seems more annoying than its worth.

Honestly. All MU's (IN MY OPINION PEOPLE) sucks for Sonic. I dont know how i even play em. Probably best to run the timer (I NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DO THAT ARRRGH)

Honestly, i dont know what to do in this MU. I play pretty safe man. ASC is pointless cause they can pivot you. Cant do anymoves without getting shieldgrabbed. I honestly just get lucky hits here and there and end up separating them. Idk, a well spaced bair does wonders for me in this match as it hits their shield and pokes are available.

Ugh, this mu is just so bad, i cant give straight, concrete ideas. Its like...everything you can do can be easily countered. Im not trying to get a Sonic 3stocked. CP YI that is all.
Solo climber is albeit easier, but i wouldnt underestimate em.

i would concur wholeheartedly Espy; but my opinion is as things progress, we will have alot more 55:45 matchups going either way with Sonic. Thats my honest opinion. I personally always thought 55:45 meant the match is technically even; however one's tools have easier execution than the other. On a side note i personally have a harder time with ICs than Marth. SD>sword. Oh and just shadowing his *** offstage and reacting to him works too well for gimping.

ICs on the other hand requires no mishap or its a stock. Heck, too many times i have lost a stock to tripping. or being pivot grabbed outta something stupid like a spaced bair. Or blizzard desynch while popo grabs to name one of the many brilliant tatics desynching brings to the table. I just feel a good desynching ICs just covers so much options. lol. And i really dont think G&W should be 65:35, bair spaces beautifully(own that dair!), our jab>his jab (very important),SD>aerials ( just like marth), ftilt punishes his ftilt Dsmash and usmash, and when we play a reactive game we destroy his spacing (love walking,craq walk, and SDSC in this matchup). the character is just too easy to read majority of the time.

DK as KID has stated needs to be changed i believe. Also, the DDD matchup has been bothering me as well. Taking Malcom's advice from awhile back, is just too good in this matchup, add the fact we juggle DDD almost as good DK, Edgeguarding him is probably one of the easiest of the Top tier imo, and his dair is a big commitment (something of great importance when youre juggling an opponent) along with his fair being not being fast enough given the distance you should be at once u begin the juggle. It just seems its a near even matchup. We can gimp/kill offstage fairly easily in this match up. Sure he chaingrabs us to hell, but we make up the same damage with ALMOST the same ease during edgeugarding attempts/ juggles. Again this is a matchup i see as a 55:45 D3.
But iono im just stating my two cents. Hope it made some sense.

Side B and Aerial Down B is safe on block.
Fair is safe but you need to move past them and double jump afterwards or they WILL hit you.

Aerial DownB can lock them within their shields, I think you can U throw Iceclimbers and hit them both if Nana attempts to knock you out of it. I think Forward throw might work.

Th main issue isnt only that Sonic lacks the tools to be safe on block, the issue is getting in. The Ice climbers can spam de-synched blizzards all day and Sonic would have difficulty getting around it. Of course he CAN get through it and he is rewarded for it. He is one of the few characters that can very well kill Nana as soon as she is seperated from Popo.

Getting in is the main issue in itself, since Sonic can't aircamp and he lacks the same range as Marth and Metaknight to effectively pressure them.

The matchupp isn't terrible, but it does bring out one of Sonic's weaknesses which is the inability to zone the opponent and then pressure them.

Compounded with his lack of killing options and it becomes a bad matchup.

Killing is the least of the problems. Nana is pretty predictable desynched. Just pressure the hell out of her. You can kill one Icie. Especially one that has the mentality of a radish. DON'T go after Popo. Like ever. He can react and sadly enough outrange/prioritize us until Nana comes running back. Go RIGHT AFTER NANA. Not only can we rack up damage safely Popo can't get to us to stop it. We can punish Popo for trying to save Nana FAIRLY easily. You have to turn into a game of Save Nana's stupid *** bros. Brawl. I suggest that everyone...ever plays Icies. At least for a bit. It becomes much easier to dissect them. You don't need to be able to chaingrab to really see their weaknesses.

People also never really take the time to discuss non-desynched/chaingrab aspects of the matchup. Utilt can catch us out of PRETTY much anything and leads into a grab/SHUair. Speaking of the Uair that thing is an *******. SOOO underrated. Against characters like Sonic I won't even go for the grab. I'll zone with Ice Blocks and Blizzards and interrupt with Uair and Utilt. Grabs are more of a bonus in this matchup. I believe their Nair can **** us up out of PRETTY much anything. Like..if we fair at them they can just nair. Due to 6 frame lag between the two you might knock ONE away but you'll get hit too and be unable to follow. Dair loses to Uair. Our best option is to take advantage of our Bair. It beats theirs like every time and is great for us to follow up. In fact Bair beats their Nair I think. Bair and Uair are the only really safe options in the air from THEIR front. Their backs in the air are the weak spot. Even their Dair can be a problem if you air chase. So... yeah. Basically NEVER Dair near them. Like even lagless Dair. Good Icies either grab you or know it'll be lagless and Uair through it. Bair like a madman and don't use Fair as an approach if they have time to nair. It's great for keeping them seperated though.

[/collapse]

[collapse="BOWSER"]
From 10 October 2009

Sonic's spindash gets destroyed by Bowser's UpB OoS.

Random Thoughts as they come to me : With that said, ASC is still a decent option because it can easily shield poke Bowser and lead to attack strings. Bowser gets pretty easily juggled. Ban BF. Side B has a lot more range than you think. Bowser doesn't die until high percents. He's a powerhouse. Bowser can do a lot of cool tricks from ledges and platform, will sometimes do ledgehop Uair as a KO move if you're hovering over or trying to get back on the stage. Ftilt is really strong and has great range. Use Fair and Uair alot. Bowser can get jabs from GR, uncertain of what else he can get on Sonic.

--

awww right. maybe add more later.

Bowser can GR chain grab Sonic all the way across a stage and follow up with jab, tilt, any throw, or sideB.

You're gonna eat around 20-30% with every time you get grabbed.

From the Bowser Grab release thread.
Ground release
Sonic

Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release downb(I'm fairly certain all you have to do is airdodge after the first hit)
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab

Air release
Sonic

Grab release chaingrab
Grab release dash attack
Grab release fair

Not sure how accurate it is, but Ftilt and Fair are both kill moves when fresh at the edge (should be with all the pummels).

Could any Bowser mains tell me why Bair isn't guaranteed, since its only 1 frame slower than fair +2 for pivoting before the jump. Or is it a range problem more than a speed issue?

It's not hard to time...well, all you do is wait for the release, and dashgrab again. For Bowser mains I suppose it isn't that difficult, but there is a margin of error where you can mess up, lol. But Vex did a good job of showcasing the grab release power with that CG across the stage.

Like people said before, BF would be one of your primary bans/strikes when facing a Bowser, since it is our best stage. Klawhopping/dropping can be utilized really well there.

I'll add more when I wake up -.- but I think you guys got the gist of what Bowser is really about. The match between Espy and Vex really helps a lot, but if there are questions I'm sure we could answer =D

I'll also see if I can get the other Bowsers to come here. :/

Its tight to time, but any shielded fortress from bowser can be dash grabbed. Also, you need to note that grounded and aerial fortress are two completely different moves.

Grounded fortress, has a strong hit, and is invincible until that hit starts and a weaker hit right after and is completely attackless after that so if you shield it, hes very vulnerable and the only thing he can do use the move to get away. but sonic is faster than it, so he should be able to always punish it. also, i think its one of those moves that if you shield the first part, the second hit cannot hit you.

Aerial fortress is like dks up b except that it covers slightly less horizontal distance and a bit more verticle. however. insteadof just one strong hit and one weak hit, its made up of like 10 reallly small hits that its really hard to DI out of, but even if you dont DI it, I dont think theres one of those last hits that blows you away. so even if you eat all of it, you should be able to fast fall a fair or up air to punish it. Also, aerial fortress has that tornado cancel effect, where if it ends at a certain height (around BF platform height) it hits the ground with no lag.

Also, vex is probably better than this, but when i play good bowsers, if you are inside them and they cant see you on the screen, they instinctively fortress, like every time. so if you can come up with a way to like land inside them and just hold shield, youll pretty much get a free grab.

spring traps are amazing vs bowser. hes really fat, so its hard to miss him. and once hes in the air, his options are bad. he pretty much has up air, which is slow, airdodge, which is punishable cus hes fat, and up b, which, when used that high in the air, is horrendously punishable.

Also, bowser is kinda like the iceclimbers, his grabs will **** you, but you want him to grab as much as possible, because his grab is laggy and really short ranged, so if he whiffs, you should be able to punish pretty hard, which will proceed with the juggling that we need to be good at to win this match. Bowser, seems to me, to be the basic mid tier character, he has very few options a lot of the time, but the options that he does have are very good.

@vex, do you still think I know nothing of youre character? im probably not 100% right, but still id say i have a good amount of knowledge for a non-bowser main

Well, I see I don't have anything to do really. Don't get grabbed. Stay away from small stages with platforms. UpB OoS is ****.

The only thing would would beat it is something else with invincibility frames, though few last as long as Fortress. In fact, I don't think any do besides Kirby's DownB. Other than that, you need something with godly priority like Ganon's UAir or Kirdy's DAir.

Sorry to bring Bowser up again but I've had some matches against my friend's Bowser now and I feel much more informed now. I personally think this match up is 55-45 Bowser. I could even go as far to say 60-40 Bowser. Sonic does not have an advantage here

I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a pain Bowsers specials are. OoS Fortress is ridiculously good. It can answer a lot of things Sonic can do because of it's invinciblity frames. Grabs, jabs, spindashes, aerials...it's seriously irritating. Sonic's range pales in comparison to Bowser's. Spaced Bairs were the only thing that I wouldn't get OoS Fortressed for and spaced Bairs are crap in this match up anyway. I'm not saying Fortress is impossible to get around but if you don't sheild poke Bowser and you don't space really really well, you're going to be eating OoS Fortress
What's interesting is that a lot of Sonic's move will clank with the Fortress. I found a lot of Sonic's ground attacks (mainly jab and F Tilt) clank with Bowser's fortress when I wasn't right next to Bowser. When I was right next to him after whiffing an attack against his shield, it would get me everytime

Fire, his neutral B...it's actually a pain. Earlier I said spaced Bairs are crap in this match and this is why. Fire will stop nearly all of Sonic's direct approaches. The exception is a perfect arced grounded spin jump (not a vertical spin jump) or an aerial spinshot which allows you to jump right over Bowser and Bair him. Unfortunetly...this kind of projected so Bowser can stop using his fire to ready himself (his only option really though is shield and an OoS Fortress won't reach Sonic...I think)

Side B (Koopa Klaw) - I hate this move when I'm using Peach. I hate it even more when I'm using Sonic. It can grab Sonic out of a lot of things and can really screw up your edgeguarding since his Side B can grab you out of of your aerials. It sends you flying as well

Another bad thing is killing Bowser. He doesn't die very easily. If he momentum cancels and DI's properly, he should be living at around 140-150%. Actually landing a kill move on Bowser is also difficult. He outranges you so landing an F Smash is hard...D Smash is crap. Bairs...urgh, only if Bowser runs into them. Spaced Bairs don't work like I said so...yea

Perhaps I'm doing something wrong but...when recovering with Sonic against Bowser...it's like flinging yourself against a wall with only a few holes available for to go through to get to the other side. Spin shot is tragically bad - I got punished nearly every single time I tried to use it both for recovering and on stage simply because Bowser is far too big and his attacks are pretty huge too. Sonic is incredibly limited to what he can when recovering. All Bowser has to do is wait and punish Sonic as he's landing. Grabbing onto the ledge means you risk getting grabbed ---> air trip and because Bowser outranges Sonic...getting back up from the ledge is difficult. Recovering from down below sucks because Sonic doesn't auto snap onto the edge, giving Bowser a free smash (normally F Smash or D Smash, which is surprisingly hard to DI out of)

I haven't even started on his other attacks...his Tilts have huge range and hit hard. Jab might be slower than yours but it vastly outranges Sonic's attacks. F Smash is a horrible move that is ridiculously strong. Bowsers aerials are not to be underestimated as they outrange yours


Having said all that though, we are forgetting one imporant advantage we have in this match up

It's Bowser

Bowser is very big. Whilst this can create a few problems such as a large sheild (the whole of Sonic's Up Smash can be shielded :/) it also makes Bowser a very big target. Fair is a beautiful move in this match, despite me not liking it much. Up Smash is good when it lands and so is Up Tilt. If Bowser doesn't have much of his shield left, spindashes can go through below his shield and hit him (although Fortress can stop spindashes). Whilst Bowser outranges Sonic, Sonic is faster than Bowser. Provided I was close enough/had started them up, my aerials would often get this first hit in. Shielding Bowsers more laggy attacks such as F Tilt and the whole of Fortress (irritating to do) allowed me to punish Bowser with various grabs and the like

Gimping Bowser is not as easy as it sounds. You have to play smart. Bowser doesn't have many options since his recovery isn't great. The only thing he can do provided he's a decent height above the stage whilst off stage is Fair and air dodge. Bait a reaction and hit him (Bair is probably your best choice or a Dair if you get lucky and he DI's wrong)


Feel free to disagree but that's my take on things. I think the match up is around 55-45/60-40 in Bowsers favour. I know I've said a lot more things Bowser has over Sonic but Sonic outspeeds Bowser and if Sonic shields Bowsers more laggy attacks, Bowser is open for getting Faired/grabbed/whatever. The smartest player will normally win but I feel that Bowser has a lot more defensive tools to keep Sonic at bay and Sonic can have a hard time getting round them which is why I've put it in Bowsers favour

Hmm.... for some reason, no one is mentioning sonic's adantage when hes below bowser. if you can get below bowser he options get limited quickly and dair, airdodge, and even fortress upon landing should all be baited and punished with something like an upthrow or upair to reset him in that position. this is bad for bowser against sonic. Retreating ASC is also a good spacing tool against him under the guise of a potential attack, and if he tries to run after you, he can't use those tilts as regularly either, and resorts to fortress if he does get into trouble, which again is baited. I'm sorry, but feels like people are saying there is not answer to fortress. Even when I first played a good bowser and had little matchup exp, i still noted that i needed to bait fortress with pressure. the only real problem was the constant jumping and sideB/aerial spamming he did, in hopes you RAN INTO THEM. its not like he can force you into into them guys. bowser has to play just as defensive against sonic as vice versa, and he does it from the get go.

If you havent beaten a good bowser, it may be because you did nothing but run into stuff.

If the stage is decent in size, sonic's advantage, 55:45

[/collapse]

[collapse="WOLF"]
From 8 Nomvember 2009

By da K.I.D
ummmm. I dont know what specifically is giving you trouble so I guess Ill just go through a basic overview of how sonic wins the match...
1. Unless you can powershield it on command, dont attempt to shield grab the bair. and you probably shouldnt try it then either, because it is lagless and has mad range. and sonic has crap grab range.
2. learn to power shield the lazers. he has a lot of lag after he fires them, so its possible to run up and grab/dash attack him after he shoots if you are close enough. alternatively, you can spinshot over them and punish him.
3. if hes the type to try to shine as hes falling to get out of comboes, you can shield grab it.
4. DOWN TILT. work on down tilting successively and doing instant reverse down tilts, if you are good you can combo wolf from 0-about 45 and than into a grab from down tilt. most people arent fast enough to do that many reverse down tilts one after the other. so just down tilt him as much as possible to punish his moves, and when you dont think youll be able to down tilt again just grab. down tilts to 2 pummel up throw, can be around 35- 45% of free damage.
5. learn what the wolf likes to do out of down throw (its the only worth while throw wolf has) and avoid the followups. usually rolling backwards is the safest option when he down throws you.
6. Stop dying. wolfs usually start fishing for down smashes at about the 110-120 range. pay attention and learn to bait shield and punish the down smash. sometimes, if the wolf is bold he will down smash your attempt to punish his down smash. dont try to grab to punish the down smash. use down tilt if he is at low percents, or ASC/fair/ftilt/bair at high percents. note the ASC and bair will probably only work if the wolf likes down smashing multiple times in a row.
7. FSMASH! most good wolfs dont use f smash any more cus its kinda bad. ut if your wolf likes to f smash. a good way to get free damage is to stand right inside the edge of his f smash range. the wolf will probably say, he doesnt know i can hit him from here. and try to f smash you. but if you shield as soon as he starts the move. its a free shield grab/down tilt at low percents for you
8. GIMPS! Gimps are very important. as its usually necessary to gimp the wolf to win seeing as wolf clearly out classes sonic in killing power. theres 2 parts to edgeguarding wolf effectively.
a. get as far out from the stage as you can to force the wolf into making an error. standing at the ledge and doing an ISDJ is a good option here. your objective isnt necessarily to gimp him, but use long lasting moves like down air, fair, and nair to either kill him or make him airdodge. if the wolf is forced to airdodge, the battle should be almost over.
b. getting to the ledge before wolf. wolf is very reliant on the ledge for his recovery. so if you can get to the edge and outlast his recovery move with your ledge invincibility, wolf will probably die, this is why its important for you to make the wolf airdodge or shine before he attempts to get to the ledge, because wolf falls like a brick, airdodging will almost always put him below the stage and it wolf is below the stage. the ledge is pretty much his only survival option. so if you can force him to do something in phase 1, and than get to the ledge before him in phase 2, the stock should be over.
also note that i believe fair trades hits with his up b, and nair outright beats it, even the weak hit. bair beats it as well. also, the hits of his up b have essentially NO hitstun, so if you get caught in it, mash your fair or nair, and you might be able to hit him out of it while you are stuck in it.
that ended up being a lot longer than I thought. hope it helps

thanks for explaining fizzie, I thought it was pretty clear but w/e as long as people can see it.

couple wolf tendancy things
some basic wolf comboes.
bair at mid percents (50-70) to DACUS
bair at low percents to grab
move i do a lot with wolf is SH fair, and during the fair get behind the guys shield and up smash so they eat 18% when they try to shield grab
kill combo on light characters (i dont know if sonic counts) is nair to down smash. works at about 100-120.
wolf is a character that relys a lot on spacing, so you have to do a lot of ruuning around to mess that up. try to get under him when he jumps, so that he cant space you with bair.
wolf has great spacing, stop trying to shield grab stupidly (i know my) wolf thrives off of people trying to shield grab dumb stuff. because its a free smash attack.
when i played jj wolf, he was really good at baiting me to attack him when he was near the edge and than jumping back and bairing me

i think thats the kind of stuff to know that is really important, 10 times more important than just having the knowledge that the matchup is even.

one more note, wolfs up smash is almost unpunishable, junk has like no lag, f smash is stupid laggy. and down smash is hard but able to punish.

No Wolf worth their salt will let you punish their Bair with anything but MAYBE an iDA. For one, Wolf's Bair reaches far. Second his aerial acceleration allows him to retreat quite a ways, too far for anything with any Steak meat behind it.

The shield is your best friend in this MU. Better practice your powershielding for this MU. Work on your baiting as well. SDI Wolf's FSmash towards him and you should be out of the way for the second hit. Don't take any risks that get you right up in his face, his DSmash is just as good, if not better than MK's DSmash in every way save for range.

I wish I had more practice with Wolf. He's such a good matchup to help you work on your basics and teach you how to punish/defend better.

NinjaLink (Wolf) vs Kojin (Sonic)

Granted this is a while ago, but this is a good example of what happens when a good sonic does not know the wolf matchup against a good wolf player who does.

And it still was close. the thing i know now is that Wolf's lasers, while indeed are projectiles, are not as good as forcing unsafe approaches like other laser type moves can. Sonic, IMO can bait the majority of his mid range offence and respond well with combos and grabs. So for sonic, manuvering with sonic's speed to quickly punish wolfs lag is possible. I also feel that Sonic can run wolf around and force him offstage easier than any of the other space animals. The only problem I had was when I was close and stuck in my shield. Wolf is better being aggressive up close, but sonic can dart out to make this not so bad. given the stage, sonic's recovery also can make him last long even against wolf's powerful kill moves at high percents. Wolf would have to use a ton of Bair to safely space against your rush, and is faster than our bair. But, again, can be baited, tho its still safe IMO

I dunno. a few thoughts I guess. the matchup is pretty even regardless, IMO the "easiest" of the star fox characters to control. He's the most punishable, and can't rely on projectile spamming here. and his speed isn't comparable like Fox's. One last thought, the key for sonic is a lot of baiting and punishing tho. Down B wrecks a lot of followups if you dont pay attention.

when you hit 120% DI and SDI every attack up, really really hard. it will help you survive bair and down smash, AND you can make the knockback hit of f smash miss and punish him for hitting you with it.

Friendlies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKKM79vYTvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn_PahNorAw&feature=related

and this is me just experimenting with random stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA-QKw2Iskc&feature=related

[/collapse]

[collapse="FALCO"]
From 24 December 2009

Sonic can close gaps quickly but it doesn't mean to run into falco's arms. the lasers are not only minor damage, but he has superiour mobility, so use of that is key. getting outside your ftilt range is good enough IMO.

Falco has good aerials and jabs, but its really for getting in with priority so he can just grab you. lasers to force you to come to him so he doesn't have to approach, since most options IMO are not safe outside of as a follow up from laser.


We know he can be punished offstage tho. and even though side b is fast, Timing and baiting can punish him anyway, a many times an up B offstage is bad in general.

I feel that once you get the stock lead the matchup is a lot easier, because sonic should not feel like he has to approach, and he can just bait the usual followups from laser run away from disadvantageous positions and reset, even ledge camp a bit for force falco to approach which sonic has a better time punishing.

I dont like ASC in this matchup, it basically tells falco to kill you with a hypehn smash.
and most sonics act like they have to approach him even when they kill him first. maybe its just me, but falco's approaches are not safe against Sonic .

however, until things change, that chain grab threat is enough to pressure sonic up close, and lasers from a distance are a problem regardless. i belive the first stock decides the flow of the match, but sonic will have to do more work IMO.

Ftilt is ur friend in this matchup. Space urself appropiately ( approx. where you could perform a screech stop and be within range for an attack). Use ASC only as a punisher, although i think it is still good for this match if u can make good reads as it does soo much damage and puts u in a good position vs falco. Get him in the air, i believe its fairly easy to read his airdodge and uair can space out dair. Also because of his falling speed, its fairly easy to get him into little bair DI traps (bair to upthrow, bair to fair, bair to upair to upair,etc) low-mid percents. When you're going for a kill, throw him off. If they cant tech dthrow, then a HA following the Dthrow will get a falco who attempts the mid-air jump to phantasm recovery. Also Ftilt ***** phantasm. Pay attention to Falco and perform it as he phantasms. It will cancel it out and Falco will fall with no knockback. Thus, he will be forced to up B.

Beware of follow ups to the chaingrab if you are caught. that thing is 40+ guaranteed and a extra 20-30 if its a good falco. Again with the appropiate spacing i describe and sonic ability to Shield Dash with SDSC lasers arent a problem; they should be openings you look for. Dtilt chains, uthrow and bthrow chains are good options at low percents. Remember your Range; getting into boxing range with Falco for too long is how he'll slaughter u with his fast attack speed. screw wasting forward smash on phantasm. mindgame him for the early kill if therecovery is predictable.

60 40 falco

sonic can beat falcos mostly because they use their phantasms the same way they do against every other character, but sonic is one of the few characters that phantasm is rarely safe against, since sonic can either shield spotdodge and punish it, or just run to where its going to land before the falco does and just charge a hitbox to put at the spot where he lands.

dont be afraid to just run up and fair between lasers.

learn to powershield lasers.

all of sonics charged smashes beat illusion.

Absolutely. He can do it up to about....40%? Haven't done it in a while. DNes and I had some Falco versus Sonic matchups to test **** out. I was able to CG to about 40 and Falco can catch Sonic at the end of it with a Dair Spike if he tries to spring. Some Falco's have trouble CGing Sonic cause a lot of them will do a dashing CG. You need to walk the first few steps otherwise you'll be a few frames TOO SLOW. You dash at about 20 percent.

Oh yeah. Also when Falco does the spike after the CG on the level. He can read your tech and Fsmash pretty hard. Usually I get a sweetspot. If you roll away he can Dash attack and cancel into an Usmash but I'm pretty sure he has to buffer that so if he calls it wrong you escape. Most will probably charge an Fsmash behind them as it's got that hitbox on his back in case you just stand up/get up attack. Be careful if you roll away and he Fsmashes though. If he does a forward one I think he sourspots it. IIRC your best option is to getup attack AS SOON AS POSSIBLE so you can clang. If you wait too long his damage will break the 10 percent and he'll just override your attack. Anybody back me up/prove me wrong on that? He CAN do a 2nd dair but that's not as bad as a sweetspotted Fsmash or a Dash attack Usmash combo.

hey so i know you all are done with the falco matchup but i just wanted to add more seeing as i just played Larry in tourney. Spin dashing slightly out of falco's ftilt ranges messes with alot of his options. If he chooses to laser, you can let go of spin dash on reaction and your invincibility frames WILL protect you from his lasers and allow you to punish. once you have falco in the air you can camp his landing with sh uairs, usmashes, grabs and even spin dash > uair. Also go for the gimps! whenever we knock off falco we can a solid opportunity to gimp/rack up damage. Usmash is good, however i am coming to the conclusion with good reaction speed and simply watching the height of falco, ftilt is the best option ( unless we can down tilt fsmash the ledge consistently.) Ftilt comes out faster and ends faster, but most importantly if you succeed in hitting a ftilt at the edge, they are required to up b to recover as it will just drop the falco with no knockback. Got Larry with it a couple times ( too bad i tripped on one and failed and edgehogging the other.) Uthrows are golden of course, dtilt locks are as well.

Of course beware of the CG especially the follow ups. As KID has said on numerous occasion, the dair is the worst as it gets you into a guessing game falco is quite familiar with. If you get daired while grounded, just jump away quickly. I dont know about anyone else but falco seems fairly susceptible to uairs off the top maybe its because of the nature of his AD and his fastfalling but as long as ur under him initially the second uair usually will get him if u chase with a spring.

Also please beware of Falco's adept at differing phantasms. They will use their phantasms for follow ups at anytime or to start a juggle. Sometimes theyll medium/short IAP> usmash for the kill. Also beware of Dthrow > semi charged Dacus at high %, as a falco player and playing with Larry, ill tell you it works far more than it should.

To summarize this text: play gay, dont get grabbed. Be close enough to punish lasers with either IDA or Spin-dash but far enough so you dont, you guessed it, get grabbed.

Yeah, spring out of chain grab too. If they don't play Sonics often they may not realize that they actually have to buffer the chain grab past 20% or so. Most falcos buffer anyway, unless they are trying to cover a distance, but some forget.

Also, spring if you get daired like syon said, because that way you get up and get some quick invincy frames on the ground making it near impossible to grab/ approach you.

Also, don't CP FD against Falco haha. It sucks and lasers mess up Spin cancelling just as much as spin cancelling messes up Falco's spacing game.

Also, its a ton of guessing when you're in close. You're going to have to live longer than Falco each stock if you want to win, so you have to be able to read him well. Grabbing is crucial in this match-up as you want to up throw him and punish every landing that he does. If the falco is not amazing at lasering then you better be on his *** every time he lands with Up Air, grab, dash attack, spindash or something.

Find out when he likes to phantasm and punish it. If he mixes grounded phantasms into his array often, just hold shield until after he is through you. No use trying to powershield an IAP only to get hit by a regular phantasm. Sonic can punish Falco's phantasm game better than any character if you read well and dont get too predictable on your punishes. Sometimes grab right away, sometimes do a late dash attack and other times do a Side-B cancel to fake him into down dodging and then grab him.

Learn to GIMP. This is really hard if you don't play against real players often as gimping computers is very different. Falco really only has 4 options when he wants to recover and you have an answer for all 4.
1.) Phantasm high to a top Platform (BF,Smashville etc) Up Air or spring up air if necessary.
2.) Phantasm onto the level (maybe try to deke you into thinking hes doing something else) Charge forward Smash if you can time it. Short hop down air works well too. Up Smash is probably the easiest but worst for punishment if you predict wrong and Neutral Air is the best if you're not sure and you just jump around to act dumb and neutral air when you hear the sound haha.
3.) Phantasm to ledge. This is the hardest to punish. Basically your options are to either stand on the ledge and charge a FSmash down like syon said. Or jump above the ledge and drop a spring for a stage spike. OR grab the edge if youre close enough haha.
4.) Fake a Phantasm and recover with FireBird - (Lol go hit him with any aerial. Preferably a backair to stage spike, but you have really just forward air as soon as you leave the edge then old back to the stage and the falco will die haha. Neutral Air and Spring also work. If he does this, then he probably tricked you but if you're close enough he better be dead even at like 40%).

As syon said. Don't get grabbed early. If he gets up a life dont go for downsmashes and forward smashes. Its just going to make you get 70% from grabs. Instead rack the damage up to 180% when you can kill him with lots of options such as ASC or Up throw on a higher platform or something.

Also for a protip: If you grounded spring an IAP at the end of it and then UP air the falco you get 50 cool points!

I actually like Sonic over Falco at low percentage because Falco kinda sucks in the air. I have a combo saved where I get him from 0-50% and then gimp him. But if you still struggle not getting grabbed (like i do haha) then this matchup is really tough as no character is more gay than a Falco in the lead.

-4nace

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[collapse="DONKEY KONG"]
From 25 January 2010

you cant kill what you cant hit. and dk really is one of those characters that cant really hit sonic. its rare, because sonic usually has to pull the bait and punish game, and most characters can hit him inbetween the weaving in and out of range. and i really feel like im fighting zelda in this matchup, where i just have to make the dk do something, and no matter what it is, i can punish it.

dk should very rarely be attempting down b. if he does it at the wrong time (which isnt hard, since because hes forced to do the hand slaps in twos) he eats 20-30 % from an ASC combo, which then puts him in the air, which is very bad for dk.

up and f tilting spindashes means that you are being dumb and predictable about them and/or committing too much to the same type of spindash.

if you can make him think that you are going to spindash, any thing that he can possibly use to defend himself from it, aside from... shield, can be punished obsurdedly easily

the only problem with this matchup is that its really easy to get into a groove of ****** the dks pants off, and then out of nowhere hell hit you with a bair to head butt to punch, and after you just put 120 damage on him, he just 30-deathed you in 3 hits.

you just have to make sure you are calculating your follow ups efficiently

wow... i didnt even know i knew this matchup this well

i've played DK before, but i never thought of the matchup like that. I always reilied on the bait and punish tactic and it seemed great for dealing damage. I agree with putting DK in the air as all of his options can be covered and his airdodge isn't good. They kinda have to rely on tilts to stop our assault, and thier main approach in the air, with bairs, is probably the best they have to stop Sonic, but it has enough lag to shield grab. Cargo throw stage spikes can be teched so if you can do that then they can't kill oyu early. the only true advantage it seems is they are heavy so you have to deal move damage, but i dont think thier recovery is mixable enough to prevent harrassment once they get on stage again.

i guess it depends on how well/bad the sonic is with the spin dash specials. I'm not certain so i'm gonna say slight disadvantage. its probably the "easiest" heavy character matchup we have, and i say that cautiously, because maybe i haven't played a ******** DK yet.

I'd probably rather play a good DK than a good Bowser IMO, if i had to choose. at least they have a better Oos option and a projectile.\


i just thought of something: we had a poll for sonic's worst matchup, is it a problem to do one for what the boards think is his easiest? even if you only want to do a poll for the "easiest" matchup for like, the top 10 best characters in teh game?

things to watch out for, his bair has stupid range.

f tilt is pretty amazing for spacing,

down tilt combos into down b hand slap if it trips.

many dks will short hop into your grab range, trying to bait a shieldgrab, at which point they will head butt right above your grab. Which can net a kill from as low as 30% if you are near the edge from head butt to giant punch, f smash or even up smash.

up smash is retardedly powerful but i dont think it can hit a grounded sonic. be wary when in the air directly above dk

full charge spindash can some times hit dk between the hand slaps of his down b.

if you predict a down b, ASC combo is an automatic 25% or so. punish everything else with grab.

dks bair is really good offstage, its his main gimping tool.

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[collapse="LUCARIO"]
From 13 December 2009

I agree with this, as i also play both lucario and sonic at a tourney level, and playing against sonic with lucario always seems like I have a solid advantage. The problem with sonic, is that he can do some major damage, after he gets in side somebody but the same goes for a character like lucario. but since we are taking this particular matchup ill give an example.

sonic whiffs a f smash. if im lucario and sonic is at 0, i will

1. Side b
2. to side b
3. to SH fair
4. to nair,
5. to jab 12
6. to grab up throw
7. to full hop nair
8. to aura sphere

steps 1 through 6 are all a full combo in most cases (you CAN mash out of side b but nobody ever does), step 7 is hard to get out of if I time it right, and step 8 is more to block your options and make you walk into more attacks.

lucario misses an f smash, if im sonic and lucario is at 0 i would

1. dash attack
2. to f tilt,
3. to run up and SH ASC
4. to double jump up air
5. to spring down air,
6. to spring up air.

from step 2, EVERYTHING you do requires a read or a mindgame, or intense spacing or a mixture of the 3. Sonic can easily rack up 70-80 damage in one string of hits. but you need to read your opponent every step of the way, where as other characters, such as lucario and fox, have auto comboes that goes to almost similar percentages, and require only minimal reading of DI. thats the diff. between sonic and better characters.

Sonic must be the only character in this game being capable of punishing Lucario's FSmash (Dash Attack, or a Tilt-attack if you were up close when he did it, but at that range, other characters have options too). As for his aerials, you just have to be quick with OoS options, like Uair (!) or Fair. Sometimes if they'r close enough to the ground when they Dair you, you can punish with Tilts.

<3 Sonic's speed. *Rub*

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[collapse="GAME & WATCH"]
From 27 May 2009

MR GAME AND WATCH

Introduction: Definitely the least dimensional character you will see in this fighting game. Puns aside or otherwise, Mr. Game & Watch is just as much of a fighter as the S/A tiers in the 3.0 version, and for a very good reason. Agreed upon by anybody you'll come across to be one of if not Sonic's most difficult opponent he'll ever come across.

Behaviour: His character his shallow and so is his playstyle; You'll be clashing it out with a wall of junk, from turtles to flags and all that stuff. Normally bad players would be punished for this kind of gameplay but the problem is that it reaches so far and sticks out for a deceivingly long time that it's hard if not impossible to get around some of it. Bad players will have an easy time getting around, and pros alike will be a nuisance to get around with.

Commonly Used Moves: You'll be seeing a lot of Mr. G&W (some a bit more suggestive than others if you have the "right" mind for it), it's best you inform yourself now that if you ever see this matchup yourself you'll be somewhat prepared. Nothing can get you as far as practice though, but for now let this be something to look out for.

Back Air - The Turtle - Probably the most used aerial you'll see throughout the whole match, this thing has above average range, lasts for a long time, somehow how a shockwave hitbox, racks up damage nicely, and can be very annoying to work around.

Neutral Air - The Fishbowl - His best self-defense aerial, this thing covers his entire hurtbox save for his underbelly, has a decent enough array of range, is quick, and racks up damage neatly as well.

Down Air - The Keyblade - Is Mr. Game & Watch above you? In that case, expect a lot of this raining down on you. Being able to weave left and right with it and cover his 6 o'clock, fast but not really compared to some other things he has, and decent range, it will be hard- however possible, to avoid and/or counterattack it, you would just not rather have to deal with it at all.

Up Air - The Blowhorn is it? - This thing can reach FAR, as in you're not even anywhere near close to being above him and it will still work. The good thing is that at that range, it doesn't do anything other than harmlessly keep you in the air for a bit longer than you would think or like, the bad side is that being propelled into the air can not only be annoying when you want to get back on the ground, but it also refreshes Mr. Game & Watch's other moves and if you're really inattentive, he will hit you with some kind of powerful attack on your landing when you were being reckless trying to get back to the ground ASAP.

Forward Air - The Box... brick... what exactly is it anyway? - The least problematic/seen aerial in his arsenal of crap. This thing packs some nice knockback, and has a hitbox that sticks out for a little bit... that's about it, it's lacking in every other field you can imagine.

Forward Smash - The Match - To start off, this attack has a lot of power on the first hitbox, after that comes a weaker but still just as gruesome 2nd hitbox, has some ending lag (still have to be quick about this) and even less spotable start-up.

Down Smash - The Hammers - Much like his forward smash, this attack has about the same start-up lag, less ending lag, covers both of his sides, and if you aren't killed off the top by the sweetspot, the sourspot will still send you flying off to the side.

Up Smash - The Scuba-Helmet - Mr. Game & Watch's most power attack by far, but also his riskiest, just try not to be near the head and you shouldn't need to unnecessarily die. Easier said than done though.

Neutral A - Gas (The PG way to say it anyway...) - Clocking at 4 frames (1 frame = 1/60th of a second FYI), his fastest attack, but probably his most pathetic attack. Only reason for any G&W player to use this attack is to reset you to neutral position out of an unteched Down-Throw, get you in a hold for a little bit, and refresh his other moves. If you're ever caught in a neutral position with him proceed to do your own Jab combo as he has nothing to match yours which is 3 frames other than getting you in hitstun/lag/read.

Forward Tilt - The Chair - Nothing really special, just a surprise kill move at later percents if you weren't already killed before. If it doesn't kill you, it has alright knockback.

Down Tilt - The Sewer Lid - This stinks, this move is fast, spammable, and you'll find it to be another brickwall that you'll have to find some way to work around. This also works as an edgeguard.

Up Tilt - The "1" Flag - Nothing really impressive about this attack either, this is just here so that G&W's don't have to hit you with up smash, and has less ending lag than his chair.

Neutral Special - Chef - This attack will rarely be seen or used outside edgeguarding, the projectiles can be avoided, and the hitbox the Pan has can easily be outmatches with any of your ranged ground attacks.

Down Special - Bucket - This special would be used to capture certain projectiles against certain characters and use them against them, however since the only projectile Sonic has is his Spring and that can't be Bucketed, you would think this thing is no use against Sonic, right? Wrong, If you hit G&W out of the stage and think he would die under normal circumstances, he can just use this thing to stop ALL MOMENTUM. This allows him to live longer than the programmers of this game probably intended, because without this Mr. Game & Watch is the third lightest character in this game, surpassing only Jigglypuff and Squirtle.

Side Special - Judgment - You won't see this often if ever, varying from player to player, reason being is because for Mr. Game & Watch to use this, is like taking a risk. This move can either allow the greatest (and most random/lucky while you're at it) comeback in the history of whatever, or it can reassure his demise. Judgments differ from 1s to 9s, with the 1 being a backfiring Judgment, and the 9s being OHKOs (One-Hit K.O.s), number inbetween differ in power and use. Most noticeably 8s will freeze you, sevens would drop items if you're playing with items on but in a standard tourney ruleset is almost no better than him getting a 1. I forget what the other numbers do, but rest assured it's nothing to really worry about it. Outside the variable results, this attack has a lot of ending lag.

Up Special - Fireman - Apparently the firemen also have 2nd/3rd/4th jobs/shifts, because recovering isn't it's only use, but it just happens to be what it's good for mainly. After the move is executed, Mr. Game & Watch pulls out a parachute to slow his fall, and he can still act and do anything he normally could do except another Fireman attack until he lands or gets attacked on the way down. The trampoline also has some wind properties much like his U-Air, and if you weren't hit by the windbox, you were either not hit by it at all or you got hit by the part that hurts you, knocks you somewhere relatively close to G&W, and if that didn't happen then Game & Watch just has another follow-up/mix-up/"OH @#$%" panic button. Mr. Game & Watch also happens to become his own attack after he jumps, so it's really hard to attack him during, you'll have to rely on hitting him before and/or after he's done this move.

Throws - There's nothing really special to mention about any of his throws excluding his Down Throw, which you should be prepared to avoid. The best way not to get caught up in this mess is to not get grabbed, unfortunately chances are you will eventually get grabbed and chances are The opponent will throw you down. There's no way to tell which way he threw because the animation for all of Mr. Game & Watches throws is the same, the only variable is where it goes, and his Down Throw will put you right next to him in a prat-fall. Mr. Game & Watch can act immediately after his animation finished, and depending on what you (can) do and how you react (and I guess what he tried to predict), a couple of things can happen. Assuming you don't tech and do anything you will be vulnerable to any of his attacks (though don't discard this as useless, you will want as many options as you can from this point on), assuming you don't tech but have a reaction action and time, you can roll forward and back, or you can do a get-up attack (or even normally get up, this is faster than any of the others but the safety can still fluctuate). Mr. Game & Watch can still try and predict you correctly and punish you for any of these actions, however it's up to you to make sure you don't pick the wrong course of action and punish him for messing up. Now assuming you do tech, you will be granted much more time to react and defend yourself, but you're not out of the woods yet. You can tech in place, back, or forward, usually doing this will allow you a bigger reward for the same/bigger risk, but again sometimes one option might not be the best, it's still in your hands to make the right decision and react accordingly.

How to Win: With this whole shopping list of stuff, how do you get around this? If you're playing Sonic, you really cannot do a lot of things and if some things do/did work then it was a mistake on the opponents' part. You're at the mercy of the other player no thanks to the people who created this game and missed this part here. Granted you are still spared a "counterpick or lose" solution with some saving graces, but at top level play this matchup becomes just horrible to deal with.

You will need to play this matchup so many times in order to condition yourself to know what works and what doesn't, and always be at the very top of your game if you want to even have a chance to win. That means you will also have to understand every aspect of both characters' gameplay, and if you know this then that means you will have to bust out of crazy tricks with Sonic, because if super computers where playing this matchup there is no way in Hell Game & Watch should lose. Am I discouraging you from playing this matchup yourself?

That's a yes and no answer:

Yes because eventually (and) with enough practice, you will and could prevail.

No because if you're not confident and/or you're not at that skill level yet your chances of winning are statistically very, VERY low.

The best way to win this matchup is to play it many times over and over and heavily analyze it, because if you give up midway there is/was no point to it all, but if you have just started I cannot make the decision for you on whether you should dedicate a lot of time and effort to do this or not. Some great tips I can tell you know that would make things easier is that your key points should be controlling Sonic's speed, getting in your opponents' head, and take advantage of anything and everything you can and try to minimize the damage, for what that's worth.

Recommended Stages: Personal preference, though I'm leaning more towards platform stages, not Battlefield though but I mean something like Smashville.

Matchup Summary: On paper (stupid pun), this matchup should be in no way winnable for Sonic with the time/metagame this guide was made/written, however since no one person/thing but super computers can play perfectly there is still a chance at top/near perfect level gameplay, and for this reason alone the matchup is clocked at 65:35 Mr. Game & Watches favor.

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[collapse="ZELDA"]
From 8 August 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8064064&postcount=5836

Zelda can pretty much just space smashes and tilts and all of a sudden you're dead. Her attacks do a lot of damage and good Zeldas also can auto sweetspot aerials OoS when that option is available (which is more often than you think) Bad spindashes will get killed by sweetspot OoS.


Her SideB isn't all that effective. It's annoying when you're recovering, and can force you to approach still...and eat more smashes. It's hitbox is also extremely, decievingly disjointed so don't fall for it...I usually get trapped like a moron while I'm recovering from spring or with no jumps, lol.

They like to try and go for kills with it when you're near the blastzone...and it will kill.


I say it's about even, slight favor towards Sonic 55:45. She can still wreck if you don't know watsup.

I need to do the MU again. As in I want a rematch with a good Zelda now that I'm not out of practice.

KID is right about how Din's is a joke of a projectile, it doesn't force you to approach even if you have the lead, and can easily be avoided if not countered thanks to Sonic's speed.

Up Smash can be punished with FTilt/DTilt if you're not caught in it... IF though, I know exactly what you're all talking about when you're caught in that attack, in or out of your shield Not every Zelda is also going to spam smash attacks and hoe you're going to fall into it, that only works if you don't have control over Sonic, and we're not assuming anything but high-level play here.

FSmash I believe can be punished with a DA OoS, once the attack is done anyway. Not trying to get a point across, I'm just saying. What with Sonic's speed and how if we can punish MKs attacks we should be more than equipped for Zelda.

I would go as far to say that her aerials are hard to land on Sonic, but being able to avoid them is easier said than done, and if you really commit to an attack on hit her shield, well pray they miss and you have enough time to not get hit by it. :/ Sonic may be fast in the air and no question on the ground, but his aerial acceleration is rather poor... granted not Luigi/D3/MK poor but it's not exactly stellar for him... again having to make you commit to one way which can lead to being predictable... no good.

Just a couple of tidbits, I really don't want to get in-depth since it appears that has already been taken care of.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Also..."]

I have this grudge match with a pro sonic friend of mine. Back last year he used to pwn my gnw with upthrow>spring>uair. That killed really early. Later on in the game i got better with d.i and stuff. So i always d.i his upthrow. He still beats me tho because of my poor spacing. But NOW his fsmash cant kill me as much because i can d.i and bucketbrake REALLY good. I counter his spindash approaches with my bair( i used to try and sheild grab it lol). But i think only like half the frames of the bair actually outpriotizes his spindash. IDK. He claimed he made up this move but i said BULL****. He f throws me, then watches my landing and quickly runs and up bs right when im about to land. So i get bounced up by the spring and quickly bairs for the kill before i know WTF is going on. He calls it "skydragon" hes such a *** lol. I still love him tho(no homo) Wow i forgot the point of this post.

A SkyDragon combo is when you discover the Steaktastic-Anthinus Combo one year after the game's been released.

We can see it here, a wee bit too slow to prey on the angel steak...
...angel steak?

.....**** you Tenki. <3

Lol.
[/collapse]

 

[Kinzer]

Apparently I don't have a good enough understanding of the opposing character; and it's so much easier to criticize somebody else's matchup log than it is to do it themselves. I'm not going to point out names, but I'm not doing anything more even on characters where I feel I strongly excel at the matchup and it's not a fluke with the opponent - Until somebody else here does something "right".

If what I'm doing isn't right, I'll do what everybody else is doing.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Umm. If you're saying that I don't like you're opinions/views on certain match ups 'cause I didn't include them here, don't think that way please o.o I done this in a rush whilst doing my report for college at the same time.

It's not even finished yet, I think I've skipped Lucario where some of you're posts are included too. I wasn't expecting someone to post this early lol. Sorry if I made you feel that way.

Gotto go to college right now though.