The Cape
Smash Master
So it has Zelda U smash problems.
Which no one wanted to fix >.>
Which no one wanted to fix >.>
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Sonic: Official Character Discussion
- Thread starter Ulevo
- Start date
Revven
FrankerZ
Let's stop being lazy and fix Sonic's Dsmash. Get rid of the mega speed-up it has and instead buff it in KBG. Yes, Blank and DS both like the Dsmash speed-up but is is quite too fast and while it makes the move more practical, if it killed earlier than Fsmash did but took more skill to land, it would be far more rewarding and add depth to some degree for Sonic to land that Dsmash. Unless ya'll wanna add 1.05x startup to it + KBG buff.
It's just too fast and safe on shield.
It's just too fast and safe on shield.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Or... it could stay as a fast move and just have more endlag?
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I've said time and time again that we should simply add more ending lag to it to make it less spammable. Giving more KB to d-smash would only make it act like another f-smash. With their default stats, d-smash is only 1 frame faster than f-smash, yet f-smash has more range (both vertically and horizontally), more disjointed ness, a lower launch angle, higher knockback, and much, much less ending lag. More KB isn't going to make dsmash any more appealing, as it would just be competing with f-smash which is superior in so many ways. D-smash's advantages should simply be speed and duration. It should not try to compete with f-smash, but simply be good in areas that f-smash is not.
I have also always said that the speedup was a tad bit overdone, and that while it should be fast it shouldn't be MK fast. 10-12 frames would be fine for it, and even with that small speedup I'd still want more ending lag on it.
I have also always said that the speedup was a tad bit overdone, and that while it should be fast it shouldn't be MK fast. 10-12 frames would be fine for it, and even with that small speedup I'd still want more ending lag on it.
kupo15
Smash Hero
I'm no sonic expert, but the dsmash is a great spot dodge punisher and is something I get caught up in a lot. If we make the kb more powerful for at least the weaker hits, then it would be even more scary to spot dodge against which would make this move pretty effective. This is something the fsmash can't do.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
D-smash coming out faster would make it BETTER at punishing spotodges as you could just hit with the strong hit after the spotdodge instead. Making the weaker hits strong would kinda defeat the purpose of the strong hit too... It's a decent buff, but no where near as useful as it just being fast enough to act as a direct punishment option.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
So Sonic had two votes for bottom 10, but we were already working on him anyways. For some reason work died down but now is as good a time as ever to start thinking out specifics. Heres a quote from iSpin I'll be using for reference:
-Bair and Down-B are both ready.
-Spring timer needs to be extended. To my knowledge it would probably be harder to extend the timer then to completely remove it, but we'll have someone more knowledgeable elaborate on that.
-BBC is canceling the turnaround animation of Sonic's spindash with shield. Not sure if its possible.
Okay the meat of the work:
The tech chasing Usmash spike. First of all the direction of the spike. I think more people are for it spiking slightly behind rather then in front. DI and stage teching will negate any of its uses as an edgeguard anyways.
Theres been talk that its too easy to DI out of before the spike. There are a few potential fixes. You could edit every single hitbox to get rid of KB on them all, or you could speed up the move entirely starting on the frames of the hitboxes. I think speeding it up would be more plausible, and really the amount of damage you could do with a techchase setup is way more then the damage Usmash does alone. After that, only a few hitboxes would probably need to be altered just to ensure it works. If the second to last or even 3rd to last hitbox spiked as well it would probably still leave enough time for Sonic to follow-up.
Sonic's Nair has 3 hitboxes. The first could stand to kill better while the later ones could stand to combo better.
By switching BKB and KBG on Sonic's first Uair we could potentially make it link better. I'll probably look into this myself.
Just posting this here to get clarification, and to see if Giza or someone else was working on these. If no one else is, I believe hitbox data for most moves is on the Sonic thread. I'm still missing Sonic Usmash hitbox data though. I'll probably get started on doing the rest of these after my weekend. Post thoughts and feedback please.
Notes:
-Bair and Down-B are both ready.
-Spring timer needs to be extended. To my knowledge it would probably be harder to extend the timer then to completely remove it, but we'll have someone more knowledgeable elaborate on that.
-BBC is canceling the turnaround animation of Sonic's spindash with shield. Not sure if its possible.
Okay the meat of the work:
The tech chasing Usmash spike. First of all the direction of the spike. I think more people are for it spiking slightly behind rather then in front. DI and stage teching will negate any of its uses as an edgeguard anyways.
Theres been talk that its too easy to DI out of before the spike. There are a few potential fixes. You could edit every single hitbox to get rid of KB on them all, or you could speed up the move entirely starting on the frames of the hitboxes. I think speeding it up would be more plausible, and really the amount of damage you could do with a techchase setup is way more then the damage Usmash does alone. After that, only a few hitboxes would probably need to be altered just to ensure it works. If the second to last or even 3rd to last hitbox spiked as well it would probably still leave enough time for Sonic to follow-up.
Sonic's Nair has 3 hitboxes. The first could stand to kill better while the later ones could stand to combo better.
By switching BKB and KBG on Sonic's first Uair we could potentially make it link better. I'll probably look into this myself.
Just posting this here to get clarification, and to see if Giza or someone else was working on these. If no one else is, I believe hitbox data for most moves is on the Sonic thread. I'm still missing Sonic Usmash hitbox data though. I'll probably get started on doing the rest of these after my weekend. Post thoughts and feedback please.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
Sonic in Brawl+
I for one believe that Sonic has alot of room for improvement in brawl+. I was talking to Xzax about it and this is what he said:
Sonic doesn't have kill moves, and his combos aren't that impressive. I wouldn't know about earlier versions since I don't have a wii and I'm lazy right now.
This is directly from him and his opinions. I just wanted to see your thoughts. No flames please lol.
I for one believe that Sonic has alot of room for improvement in brawl+. I was talking to Xzax about it and this is what he said:
Sonic doesn't have kill moves, and his combos aren't that impressive. I wouldn't know about earlier versions since I don't have a wii and I'm lazy right now.
This is directly from him and his opinions. I just wanted to see your thoughts. No flames please lol.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
@Yes!
Straight from the change list:
Move Adjustments (BKB=Base Knockback, KBG=Knockback Growth):
-Aerial Landing Lag Reduction set to 50%
-D smash sped up by 250% from startup until charge frame, increased cooldown (endlag slowed down 50% on frame 19)
-D throw sped up 130%
-Nair changes
-Hitbox 1: 11 dmg, 80 KBG, 30 BKB, angle 20 (KBG increased by 5 to 85, BKBincreased to 50 from 30)
-Hitbox 2: BKB increased by 10 (30 from 20)
-Hitbox 3: unchanged
-U smash reduced cooldown (sped up 200% for the last 16 frames)
-U tilt cooldown sped up 175%
No direct changes to Fair or Uair. I'm guessing he's talking about his momentum, then. He can counteract this fully by shielding and then jumping, or mostly by just holding backwards out of a running jump. Dark Sonic and others are still working on touching Sonic up, I believe, so don't worry if he isn't quite at the desired "high-tier" equivalency yet.
Straight from the change list:
Move Adjustments (BKB=Base Knockback, KBG=Knockback Growth):
-Aerial Landing Lag Reduction set to 50%
-D smash sped up by 250% from startup until charge frame, increased cooldown (endlag slowed down 50% on frame 19)
-D throw sped up 130%
-Nair changes
-Hitbox 1: 11 dmg, 80 KBG, 30 BKB, angle 20 (KBG increased by 5 to 85, BKBincreased to 50 from 30)
-Hitbox 2: BKB increased by 10 (30 from 20)
-Hitbox 3: unchanged
-U smash reduced cooldown (sped up 200% for the last 16 frames)
-U tilt cooldown sped up 175%
No direct changes to Fair or Uair. I'm guessing he's talking about his momentum, then. He can counteract this fully by shielding and then jumping, or mostly by just holding backwards out of a running jump. Dark Sonic and others are still working on touching Sonic up, I believe, so don't worry if he isn't quite at the desired "high-tier" equivalency yet.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
F-throw to fair was never a combo to begin with <_< (learn to DI much?).
As for kill moves, f-smash is more than powerful enough, and is safe on block with ridiculous range and a decent disjoint. His combos aren't impressive, but neither are the combos done to him. Me and Blank were planning on speeding up bair as well, and nair got a knockback buff (enough to put opponents off stage, and it's not too hard to combo into). Upsmash spike may make a comeback too, which will solve any killing problems Sonic has
.
As for kill moves, f-smash is more than powerful enough, and is safe on block with ridiculous range and a decent disjoint. His combos aren't impressive, but neither are the combos done to him. Me and Blank were planning on speeding up bair as well, and nair got a knockback buff (enough to put opponents off stage, and it's not too hard to combo into). Upsmash spike may make a comeback too, which will solve any killing problems Sonic has
.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
lol sry I'm not all with it today...or recently. I've been studying 12 hours a day for my GRE's next week >.<
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
I wanted to work on these changes, but I can't find ID's or Giza. Also, a new engine is coming so I was holding off for that.
Other then that, anyone have the old Usmash spike data so I can toy with it?
Other then that, anyone have the old Usmash spike data so I can toy with it?
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Alright, a few early changes I've been trying.
Hitbox Mod Data
-Last hit of Usmash: 25 KBG from 153. 90 BKB from 70. Angle 270 from 75.
-First hit of Uair 5KBG from 100. 50BKB from 0.
-First hitbox of Nair 100KBG from 80.
-2nd and 3rd hitbox of Nair 20KBG, 60BKB from 20, angle 85.
-Frame Speed for Usmash 2x at frame 19, 3x at frame 32.
Dark_Sonic might want to help me fine tune them when he gets back. I think Usmash might need a bit of work, and also considering lowering overall damage because of its combo options.
Hitbox Mod Data
-Last hit of Usmash: 25 KBG from 153. 90 BKB from 70. Angle 270 from 75.
-First hit of Uair 5KBG from 100. 50BKB from 0.
-First hitbox of Nair 100KBG from 80.
-2nd and 3rd hitbox of Nair 20KBG, 60BKB from 20, angle 85.
Code:
2F039946 0004B032
03195A00 010E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F036400 00064033
03053200 00640000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F0B501E 00169033
0B641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F085514 00169033
08143C00 00550000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F055A14 00169033
08143C00 00550000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
Code:
2F200032 40400000
2F0D0032 40000000Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Figured I'd post the rejected Sonic pac here for easy reference.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AE6CUBB3
Discuss how we can fix this for the next set.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AE6CUBB3
Discuss how we can fix this for the next set.
I think it would be best to start over from scratch... I'll put in my two cents and recommendations about Sonic by tonight.
Revven
FrankerZ
Yeah, I mostly agree, remove every speed up or whatever Sonic had done to him and just start over.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
This late in the game and you guys think it's wise to start Sonic over? I don't think any character should be 'started over' this late in the process. We have some gameplay tweaks planned but it applies to everyone so those shouldn't require massive retooling. I don't enough about Sonic and the guy I play with that likes Sonic has moved onto to other characters so my experience with him is limited. He still seemed decent though.
To each his own.
To each his own.
The reason though is the base of which Sonic is built upon isnt even finalized. The platform is weak and it forces Sonic to suffer as a whole. We've only added some-what decent **** on top of that weak *** platform really.
This late in the game? I think we're barely even there. I saw that because we're still tweaking engine/mechanics in the game. It's never too late to make a character right.
All I ask for now is support from the WBR members when it comes to Sonic.
I mean when it comes down to it, it's either we continue building Sonic off of bad choices, outdated codes, and a conflicted base of mainers, or we start over with all that **** weeded out so we can not **** this up.
This late in the game? I think we're barely even there. I saw that because we're still tweaking engine/mechanics in the game. It's never too late to make a character right.
All I ask for now is support from the WBR members when it comes to Sonic.
I mean when it comes down to it, it's either we continue building Sonic off of bad choices, outdated codes, and a conflicted base of mainers, or we start over with all that **** weeded out so we can not **** this up.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Starting over from scratch? Honestly we never had a strong foundation for Sonic in the first place, this is more like finally gaining our bearings.
Anyways, the pac I posted has the following changes based on the 9-14 pac.
Anyways, the pac I posted has the following changes based on the 9-14 pac.
Other things that shouldn't be listed are frame speed changes on Usmash, and maybe a few other moves like Dthrow, Dsmash and Utilt. I haven't looked up the changes from the 9-14 pac but since we're starting with a new pac doesn't seem worth it.
Pretty much working with the Sonic mains helped me get the type of problems (and solutions) that Sonic needs to be balanced in this game. They weren't OMGWTFBROKEN!!! type of negative comments that I got (despite the constant trolling I had to put down in the thread before we started work on the PSA), and we progressed very slowly and made changes based on the inputs of both Sonic mains and non-Sonic mains.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I don't know if those dair and fsmash changes are too good of an idea. It's taking the obvious downsides of the otherwise good moves and just removing it. Sonic's fsmash already isn't a bad move, and it's somewhat fast as it is esp for its not too bad range and power, but removing more startup lag from it isnt the way to go imo. The move seems pretty balanced to me. I would perhaps try speeding up his tilts instead.
How many invincibility frames would nair have all together? I think it shouldn't have more than a couple as being able to spam an aerial that has invinci frames could be... well, not the change were looking for. We can't overpower some things too much compared to other moves. It would be neat to have the change make sense sonic wise, give it a frame or two of invincibility on the first hitbox, and during those frames add a graphic effect that looks like the insta-shield from sonic 3, and also increase the hitbox on those same frames to more match the insta shield anim.
To balance out the increased size of the hitbox coupled with invinci frames, would it be possible to add a lil additional landing lag only if sonic lands on the ground during those frames, and keep landing lag on all other parts the same?
How many invincibility frames would nair have all together? I think it shouldn't have more than a couple as being able to spam an aerial that has invinci frames could be... well, not the change were looking for. We can't overpower some things too much compared to other moves. It would be neat to have the change make sense sonic wise, give it a frame or two of invincibility on the first hitbox, and during those frames add a graphic effect that looks like the insta-shield from sonic 3, and also increase the hitbox on those same frames to more match the insta shield anim.
To balance out the increased size of the hitbox coupled with invinci frames, would it be possible to add a lil additional landing lag only if sonic lands on the ground during those frames, and keep landing lag on all other parts the same?
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
You could make it have large landing lag early on and autocancel later... but that's about it, chibo.
I'm glad you removed the invinc on the second hitbox already (you should probably update the stuff here bio), but invinc nair still... bugs me. If it's only for a couple frames, I guess it's fine, but... meh.
And I really don't think sonic needs a faster fsmash.
I'm glad you removed the invinc on the second hitbox already (you should probably update the stuff here bio), but invinc nair still... bugs me. If it's only for a couple frames, I guess it's fine, but... meh.
And I really don't think sonic needs a faster fsmash.
Dair can already be predicted, plus it's not really an IASA like I used to have it, and the autocancel is at frame 77. Fsmash comes out on frame 18, and has weaker KBG than other Fsmash's.
First hit of Nair is 5-8 frames, the first two hits have a size increase that isn't even disjointed (hitbox is still inward to the character) and has risky aerial endlag already. One of the reasons I gave for this was that there were characters that were spamming only one move (Wall of Pain or otherwise) that completely shut down Sonic's ability to approach and bait, making it hard to punish and forcing Sonic to camp. Nair wouldn't be THAT spammable by any means.
Considering first hit is 5 frames, you have to have really good timing to hit.