Sonic Matchup Export #1: Meta Knight

[Mr. Johan]

Sorry about the huge delay, but I can at the very least get this one put up for now.

Matchup Discussion #1: Meta Knight

Current MU ratio: +2

Sonic Consensus: +2/+1 ​

This thread will be used to compile all Matchup-relevant data, and to keep discussion of the matchup clear and concise. Please refrain from submitting a MU ratio only; try to elaborate on the MU so everyone can understand why the MU ratio is what it is.

***Although Meta Knight is currently banned under the Unity Ruleset, there are multiple regions that employ a different ruleset, and typically those rulesets keep him legal. So, it is important to continue updating and having matchup knowledge for Meta Knight, just in case a player enters a non-Unity tournament and has to combat the character.***​

Match Up Summary and Key Points​

Nado vs Sonic can be MK's best option, or his worst nightmare. If you shield the nado and tilt your shield up so he doesn't poke...it's a free grab if you have some sort of reaction time. And that grab puts MK exactly where you want him. Right above you, with a solid 15-20ish% (depending on staleness of uthrow/pummel, if they mash out of grabs, etc...). Why, might you ask?? Uair beats most of his landing options, and it's easy to punish MK's landings. On another note of nado, Sonic can fsmash through his nado if you read it. You can also just spring away, and he'll nado onto the spring, and most of the time when people are nadoing? They're holding a direction on the joystick (usually towards you) and mashing B. AKA you can make them buffer drill rush on accident and get a solid gimp. You can also ASC the center of nado...oh him nadoing gives us so many options. The only problem is if you mess up on punishing it...welllp, he just took out your shield for free, and you'll have to play keep away unless you want to get shield poked by the next nado. Another problem is if he catches us spindashing or ASCing...there isn't much we can do. We can try to jump away, maybe upB...but as far as theorycrafting situations go, he's won that one.

I usually just stay on the ground, and DDP all over the place to bait things. I try to stay within my short hop options since full hopping vs MK will just be handing him WAY too many options.

Pros: -MK can actually die at reasonable percents.
-Nobody knows how to fight against Sonic, and most MK mains play their character the same way in EVERY matchup.
-Sonic vs MK is more than managable.
-Everyone bans YI vs Sonic, so you have free reign over counterpicking him.

Cons:-If MK has any sort of idea to adjust on how to play vs Sonic, the matches WILL go to 7 minutes at least.
-MK has much more reliable options, and much less risk.
-Just like we have stage CP control 'cause they gotta ban YI...so do they. MK has about 6 stages he's good on, and we only have 1 ban.

Do not be afraid to roll vs. MK. I've found that most MKs usually think out a game plan like "I'm going to Ftilt" or "I'm going to up B" and they don't really change it up quickly on the fly since their sword usually beats everything. Sonic is fast, we have quick rolls, and we also have access to Super Rolls (Side B shield cancel directly into roll). Use them to get in on him.

If Uair is giving you trouble, why not just drop a spring on him?

I love spring vs MK when edgeguarding, avoiding juggles and countering typical Uair planking. * Since MK's aerials have transcendant priority, he can't simply swat it away with his Uair, and he doesn't have much aerial mobility to simply dodge it.

Its not the biggest punish you can hope for, but it semi combos into dair, assuming you had the balls to buffer the follow up. *Usually a good 11% and reversal on the juggle.

I like upsmashing through aerials when MKs like you wall you with fairs/bair and whatever (but most times they would be wiser to nado or use tilts).

@ BSP: I personally think the MU is - 1 for us. Whenever I see a Sonic get smashed by MK its usually due to some absurd mistakes, which are usually player based. Even after playing some MKs at Apex, I still believe as such. I think a ton of Sonics get pressured by crap they shouldnt in the MU. Especially when you start check some frame data, certain things that MK gets away with at times is just freaking dumb. You fear MK; its over. Straight up. You have respect what hes got but ppl overdue it. We have answers to his dash in game, and our rush down mixup out of ASC and side b is El Fuerte -esque in design. If you can maintain good mid range spacing, it becomes difficult for MK as you really cant react to ASCSC/ ASC along with SDSC shenanigans. We can work in the air with our aerial game( I really believe people need to learn to sweep uair vs MK i think it helps a lot in extending our hitbox), and our walk speed and side b cancel aid us with one MK's seeming strong options in the MU, nado. Not just cuz we can punish nado; we can punish it with a dsmash and fsmash. That is HUGE imo. A punishment kill like that is as good as it gets for us.

That actually leads to another thing. I was showing some guys at APEX. That dsmash can be punished by fsmash although its timing is super strict. At the very least, it can be punished with fsmash after a PS ( the trick is to wait slightly so the input isnt misread) so utilizing certain attacks to bait a dsmash punish can be very strong for us.

Basically my opinion is this: we can punish a ton of things and although we cant really play TOO much footsies with him due to our normals, we wreck spacing. Once we get a knock up, we can use our uair range along with empty hops, spindashes to attack at odd angles and use our frame traps. We can punish things like SL and nado with kill moves, which are two things that MK tries to rely on often.

Yes hes MK; hes got AMAZING normals, close range we have nothing but in shield DI grab and jabs for the most part. His dash speed is good enough to follow spring escapes if they are done improperly. Nair can shut down blind spindashing effortlessly ( just like ours lol). A good MK can make recovering VERY difficult aka not free. And killing for him is less strenuous then it is for us. However our speed, mixup potential and damage output can force him at particular spacing and scenarios to have to be preemptive inorder to stop us. THATS where we can shine in the MU. But u have to be on point with punishments period. Out of all the MKs Ive played, I have yet to find dominant option that I couldnt get around. Even from Jason. Nado often seems to be that move but proper spacing from mid range and a little practice makes Nado fre damage FOR us.

thats where I stand.

Main Things to Watch For, and How to Fight It​

Fair beats drill rush offstage, best described as "it outspins it". So that's one of his MAJOR recovery options out the window. Shuttle loop can be a little more tricky to edgeguard against. Most of the time I drop a spring on his head and take the 4% and potentially set myself up for more edgeguarding, but I've also used sideB invincibility to punish it, turned out really well, but the timing is really rough on that.

1. MK's edge drop uair ***** us harder than nado does. If he just goes to the side of the stage and baits our approach (or is up in % at all), he's virtually untouchable and you'll have to attempt to force ledge grabs on him. Spindash, grabs, ASC, dropdown fair, etc all get beaten out by mk just simply falling down off the stage and uairing. I'm working on ways to counterract this, most specifically being shield DI, but seeing as I've only touched the game twice since Apex I haven't made much progress.
The two best examples or this I know of are Tyrant and Orion.

A couple of usable options vs nado if your shield is low, *you can run to the ledge quickly and grab it. * Ledge invincibility should last you through whats left of it and give you a shot to ledge hop an aerial or spindash (if MK retreats). *

*Another option is to full hop away from MK and charge ASC while drifting away. * You can react to whatever MK does and either release ASC into the top of nado, or spinshot over him if he advances. *Obviously this still leaves you available to spring him if you need to.

I also want to add: make sure you spotdodge at the end of tornado. You have a little bit more of a chance to punish it if you do. And also, any punish is better than no punish imo. Even if you have to resort to Dash attacks, make sure you punish MK for doing stupid tornados or he'll just eat your shield and had an easier time poking you. He'll also get momentum if you keep letting him tornado you.

Oh and if the MK is just throwing out Dairs waiting for you, don't run into them. He's got slow air mobility outside of tornado, so he won't really surprise you. What I would do is bait a tornado with Side or Down B, cancel it, and then move on to punishing the tornado. Rising Dair is a pain to try to get through imo.

I also want to encourage the usage of ftilt vs MK grounded/ short hop. When we tilt it up it stops sh fair, DA and dash grab. Obviously it has lag but if you are exercising proper spacing it can really help with MKs approach. Ftilt also sets up a dash in game for us where we can get some nice mix ups.

Our uair is amazing vs MK, we are one of the few that can battle dairs head on, however my advice for spacing uair against MK is to sweep under him, for as we all know the tip of the uair hitbox is small and sweeping under him allows us to elongate the tip. Doing that makes battling dair exponentially easier. Add to the fact we have a ton of frame traps out of uair, even against MKs AD which is short in frames, we get a ton of mileage being able to chase him down and abuse this aerial.

A few points:



- Some MKs will still LOL side b to the stage from the side which means free down tilted fsmash if u know how to time it.

- baiting grounded or aerial SL at the end can be punished with FH bair EVERYTIME ( that frame data) so know it as it could be a free kill.



- If MK likes to Fair, learn to back sh ASC. jumping back and charging ASC is amazing for whiff punishes in general, most particularly fairs in this MU. This can be huge in this MU cus a few of these will give amazing damage and put MK from a low to mid high % where uthrow> FH uair pressure is VERY SAFE. At times it could give the damage needed to finish off with spindash>bair.

- Drop down fair is mad good at interrupting nado so if u get out and u cant jump either spring or fair. DO NOT AD BACK INTO IT LIKE 90% OF THE COMMUNITY.if your spindash heavy ALWAYS be ready to retreat VSDJ so u can punish a nado if needed on reaction. HA loves to beat retreating nadoes so pay attention to their nado habits. HA is also pretty hilarious and will curve around MKs dair when below MK. This means at times u can get extra damage just by reading their jumping habits.
If the MK likes to down b to the ledge you can run off ff and dj nair or fair to land back on the stage and hit back out. ( ive also used spindash before to do it but that definitely isnt as easy.) If you have someone to practice this with, also learn how to use fair while edgeguarding MK. We can literally use fair for all of his b recoveries AND his glide. Of course the staple uair is very strong, but if u can get an MK relying on that then Spring shenanigans, using ledge invincibility and utilizing the ledge OS> bair can cover the rest provided you practice it. Learn the common recoveries of MK dependent on where he is. that helps a ton.

- both MK's dash grab AND DA lose to any characters standing grab; even Sonics.

- dont be afraid to walk when MKs in the air; even when hes nadoing. Our walk speed is good and you can walk until u see nado catch up and shield or chase when u see the retreat. This helps u keep closer to nado AND only use your shield when truly necessary (cuz youre obviously walking). This is good because we all know Nado has 30 frames of lag which equals a free smash for us which can be a "early" kill for us.

- If an MK does the "perfect landing" nado, please show them that is a misnomer and hit them with an aerial. It makes no sense to give them a chance to mix u up when they are wide open unless u a clean dsmash.

- If you have someone to practice this with, also learn how to use fair while edgeguarding MK. We can literally use fair for all of his b recoveries AND his glide. Of course the staple uair is very strong, but if u can get an MK relying on that then Spring shenanigans, using ledge invincibility and utilizing the ledge OS> bair can cover the rest provided you practice it. Learn the common recoveries of MK dependent on where he is. that helps a ton.

I concur with the majority of what you said, and yes you can ff AD through nado and grab him however you have to either ff AD away or do it when its about to end. Theres so much better options AND safer options. The problem is most ppl attempt to ff AD and just end up ADing instead. Then they fall back into nado and start crying.

Stage Picks, Stage Bans​

As far as stages go... YI is a good pick, but to be honest... 1. It'll be banned. 2. MK's nado breaks iSDR.

So we don't really gain TOO much from that stage. I prefer FD vs MK more than anything else, the extra room and lack of platforms for him to do weird MK gimmicks on really help much more than you'd think. Plus we'll be able to live muuuuch much longer. If Pictochat is legal, I recommend you take MK there, with not just Sonic but probably any character. It's by far MK's worst stage...although Picto probably won't be legal, oh well. I also really like PS1 vs MK, there's lots of weird things we can pull out of our ***** there.

Bans vs MK??? Ehhh...there's just too many stages to worry about. Just get rid of what you don't like. Brinstar, RC, Frigate, Delfino, Halberd...the list goes on and on. I usually get rid of Brinstar, 'cause even if I'm winning 3 stocks to 1...all it takes is 1 well placed shuttle loop at like 30% and there goes my stock. RC isn't fun either, but at least that stage promotes camping/timing out, and we have weird spindash gimmicks there. The other stages are much more managable than RC/Brin, so just ban 1 of those 2.

2. Meek said that everybody bans YI against Sonic, but this isn't always the case with higher level metaknights. MK can operate fully well on YI and proper use of tornado still can beat iSDR. Like Meek said, if they ban YI take him to FD. However, if they ban FD instead of YI, you have a dilemma. I've had the most success vs. MK on smashville and surprisingly frigate. Smashville is most likely your next best option, just DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT take them to BF or Lylat, it will be the death of you.

Well with Sonic mains, everyone has different stages.

I prefer using Lylat/BF/SV for starters against MK.
For CPs I go PS1 or run it back on the same stage.

My top picks for CPs are YI, FD, Ps2
Top bans are gonna be Brinstar and Frigate (maybe i just suck here, but i feel like the matchup gets especially nasty and very much in MKs control on such a small stage).

Important Links​

Meta Knight's Frame Data, Move Overview - Meta Knight Unmasked: A Dimensional Guide to Meta Knight​

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Ok...it's been a week and nobody has posted anything. So I GUESS I'll bite the bullet and say what I gotta say about MK vs Sonic.

To be honest...I think that this matchup isn't as bad as it's listed. +2?? c'mon son...it's +1 in MK's favor AT WORST.

Nado vs Sonic can be MK's best option, or his worst nightmare. If you shield the nado and tilt your shield up so he doesn't poke...it's a free grab if you have some sort of reaction time. And that grab puts MK exactly where you want him. Right above you, with a solid 15-20ish% (depending on staleness of uthrow/pummel, if they mash out of grabs, etc...). Why, might you ask?? Uair beats most of his landing options, and it's easy to punish MK's landings. On another note of nado, Sonic can fsmash through his nado if you read it. You can also just spring away, and he'll nado onto the spring, and most of the time when people are nadoing? They're holding a direction on the joystick (usually towards you) and mashing B. AKA you can make them buffer drill rush on accident and get a solid gimp. You can also ASC the center of nado...oh him nadoing gives us so many options. The only problem is if you mess up on punishing it...welllp, he just took out your shield for free, and you'll have to play keep away unless you want to get shield poked by the next nado. Another problem is if he catches us spindashing or ASCing...there isn't much we can do. We can try to jump away, maybe upB...but as far as theorycrafting situations go, he's won that one.

Fair beats drill rush offstage, best described as "it outspins it". So that's one of his MAJOR recovery options out the window. Shuttle loop can be a little more tricky to edgeguard against. Most of the time I drop a spring on his head and take the 4% and potentially set myself up for more edgeguarding, but I've also used sideB invincibility to punish it, turned out really well, but the timing is really rough on that.

I usually just stay on the ground, and DDP all over the place to bait things. I try to stay within my short hop options since full hopping vs MK will just be handing him WAY too many options. As far as stages go... YI is a good pick, but to be honest... 1. It'll be banned. 2. MK's nado breaks iSDR.

So we don't really gain TOO much from that stage. I prefer FD vs MK more than anything else, the extra room and lack of platforms for him to do weird MK gimmicks on really help much more than you'd think. Plus we'll be able to live muuuuch much longer. If Pictochat is legal, I recommend you take MK there, with not just Sonic but probably any character. It's by far MK's worst stage...although Picto probably won't be legal, oh well. I also really like PS1 vs MK, there's lots of weird things we can pull out of our ***** there.

Bans vs MK??? Ehhh...there's just too many stages to worry about. Just get rid of what you don't like. Brinstar, RC, Frigate, Delfino, Halberd...the list goes on and on. I usually get rid of Brinstar, 'cause even if I'm winning 3 stocks to 1...all it takes is 1 well placed shuttle loop at like 30% and there goes my stock. RC isn't fun either, but at least that stage promotes camping/timing out, and we have weird spindash gimmicks there. The other stages are much more managable than RC/Brin, so just ban 1 of those 2.

Otherwise...everything else in this matchup comes down to who's the better player. Who can make the reads. Who's hype, and who's all talk.

TL;DR

Pros: -MK can actually die at reasonable percents.
-Nobody knows how to fight against Sonic, and most MK mains play their character the same way in EVERY matchup.
-Sonic vs MK is more than managable.
-Everyone bans YI vs Sonic, so you have free reign over counterpicking him.

Cons:-If MK has any sort of idea to adjust on how to play vs Sonic, the matches WILL go to 7 minutes at least.
-MK has much more reliable options, and much less risk.
-Just like we have stage CP control 'cause they gotta ban YI...so do they. MK has about 6 stages he's good on, and we only have 1 ban.

I'm really bad at trying to describe a matchup.

EDIT: Videos: X vs Dojo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tREqC8o8TYc
Espy vs M2K - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSqZ175yBtk
Meek vs Ally - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWCSInMDJ-o
Speed vs Seibrik - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNpt_CHYM70
D1AOS vs Lie - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfz4u3JoMxs

Tried to find SOMEWHAT decent and recent vids from the past year or so. Might edit and post a few more.

 

[Exceladon City]

Fun little gimmick to do against Shuttle Loop happy MKs is to run at them, stop just outside of the UpB, SDSC the opposite direction and then do a long jump ASC backwards. It throws them offguard and you often get free damage.

 

[XLR8TION]

Uh yea I would give my input on mk mu, but I wanna keep wifiknight out of the equation.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Uh yea I would give my input on mk mu, but I wanna keep wifiknight out of the equation.

Any contribution is better than no contribution. You can read through what I said, and if you disagree with anything, then yea...bring stuff up. The purpose of a matchup export is to better the community of Sonic mains, and share thoughts, understandings, and different thoughts on matchups until we come to a perfect agreement of how the matchup should be played, what works/doesn't work, how to effectively punish appropriately given a situation/how to deal with certain situations.

tl;dr don't be afraid to share your thoughts

 

[WedginatorX]

Uhh Meek posted pretty much everything I was going to post except for two things.

1. MK's edge drop uair ***** us harder than nado does. If he just goes to the side of the stage and baits our approach (or is up in % at all), he's virtually untouchable and you'll have to attempt to force ledge grabs on him. Spindash, grabs, ASC, dropdown fair, etc all get beaten out by mk just simply falling down off the stage and uairing. I'm working on ways to counterract this, most specifically being shield DI, but seeing as I've only touched the game twice since Apex I haven't made much progress.
The two best examples or this I know of are Tyrant and Orion.

2. Meek said that everybody bans YI against Sonic, but this isn't always the case with higher level metaknights. MK can operate fully well on YI and proper use of tornado still can beat iSDR. Like Meek said, if they ban YI take him to FD. However, if they ban FD instead of YI, you have a dilemma. I've had the most success vs. MK on smashville and surprisingly frigate. Smashville is most likely your next best option, just DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT take them to BF or Lylat, it will be the death of you.

I hope to get some shield DI stuff vs. MK up soon but life is keeping me busy, so we'll see.

 

[Tesh]

^ if Uair is giving you trouble, why not just drop a spring on him?

I love spring vs MK when edgeguarding, avoiding juggles and countering typical Uair planking. Since MK's aerials have transcendant priority, he can't simply swat it away with his Uair, and he doesn't have much aerial mobility to simply dodge it.

Its not the biggest punish you can hope for, but it semi combos into dair, assuming you had the balls to buffer the follow up. Usually a good 11% and reversal on the juggle.

I like upsmashing through aerials when MKs like you wall you with fairs/bair and whatever (but most times they would be wiser to nado or use tilts).

A couple of usable options vs nado if your shield is low, you can run to the ledge quickly and grab it. Ledge invincibility should last you through whats left of it and give you a shot to ledge hop an aerial or spindash (if MK retreats).

Another option is to full hop away from MK and charge ASC while drifting away. You can react to whatever MK does and either release ASC into the top of nado, or spinshot over him if he advances. Obviously this still leaves you available to spring him if you need to.

My top picks for CPs are YI, FD, Ps2
Top bans are gonna be Brinstar and Frigate (maybe i just suck here, but i feel like the matchup gets especially nasty and very much in MKs control on such a small stage).

 

[Exceladon City]

Well with Sonic mains, everyone has different stages.

I prefer using Lylat/BF/SV for starters against MK.
For CPs I go PS1 or run it back on the same stage.

 

[BSP]

Meek's summary looks really good

I also want to add: make sure you spotdodge at the end of tornado. You have a little bit more of a chance to punish it if you do. And also, any punish is better than no punish imo. Even if you have to resort to Dash attacks, make sure you punish MK for doing stupid tornados or he'll just eat your shield and had an easier time poking you. He'll also get momentum if you keep letting him tornado you.

Avoid getting Uair combo'd at low percent. I would just stay on the ground. When I play Lee, any Uair at zero is like 25% at least.

Do not be afraid to roll vs. MK. I've found that most MKs usually think out a game plan like "I'm going to Ftilt" or "I'm going to up B" and they don't really change it up quickly on the fly since their sword usually beats everything. Sonic is fast, we have quick rolls, and we also have access to Super Rolls (Side B shield cancel directly into roll). Use them to get in on him.

Oh and if the MK is just throwing out Dairs waiting for you, don't run into them. He's got slow air mobility outside of tornado, so he won't really surprise you. What I would do is bait a tornado with Side or Down B, cancel it, and then move on to punishing the tornado. Rising Dair is a pain to try to get through imo.

 

[XLR8TION]

Mk's nair troubles me so much. How do you beat it? Cause at the moment I don't think you can lol.

 

[WedginatorX]

@Tesh, if you think any decent MK is going to get hit by a spring like that idk what you're thinking. It most likely won't do anything because it is easily avoidable even with their slow airspeed, and learning shield DI punishes would be much more effective.

 

[Tesh]

Assuming you are directly above MK but a little outside of Uair range, I don't think there is much he can do about it. Aside from maybe a quick double jump airdodge through it. Its just another mix up. You can probably find ANY mk getting hit by spring now and then while juggling Sonic.

 

[Espy Rose]

He can tornado.

 

[Orion*]

Uhh Meek posted pretty much everything I was going to post except for two things.

1. MK's edge drop uair ***** us harder than nado does. If he just goes to the side of the stage and baits our approach (or is up in % at all), he's virtually untouchable and you'll have to attempt to force ledge grabs on him. Spindash, grabs, ASC, dropdown fair, etc all get beaten out by mk just simply falling down off the stage and uairing. I'm working on ways to counterract this, most specifically being shield DI, but seeing as I've only touched the game twice since Apex I haven't made much progress.
The two best examples or this I know of are Tyrant and Orion.

1) This is not a viable option unless i have a lead (and its risky to go for timeouts without a significant one).
2) Jason is better at this than me or tyrant LOL. like he was the one that showed it to me in the first place but he's good enough to outskill sonic mains without resorting to be a homo usually so it's all good.
3) While I can bait your approaches you can bait me uairing off. Then just wait and force me// guess what im going to get on stage with. If i keep grabbing the edge I WILL go over the LGL so it's likely that ill just nado/airdodge on at some point.

I find that most people that play sonic are so stuck in a mindset where they have to camp where they DONT know how to properly approach and bait defensive options. Going for ISSDI **** is cool if you have a read. But you can just use solid play and stay on stage and catch my landings (what sonic does best in the mu imo).

While i think this strategy is super gay to do, I also think that if I played a sonic that was significantly a better player than me overall, it wouldnt be as effective.

Either way, If MK has a full stock lead and decides to do this, prepare to try and kill with uthrow. And if you grab MK I reccomend just throwing him either onstage to force him to guess how to land w/ bthrow at higher%s (unless fthrow does a lot more damage). Just cover options and force him to land on the ledge until that LGL is getting close.

The only problem you can run into with this strategy is you cant take your time if the clock is starting to run to long... so if your down a full stock at 2 minutes you need to start approaching. That doesn't mean unsafe. But you are forced to go for reads instead of a bait punish game.

DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT take them to BF or Lylat, it will be the death of you.

ironically takes me to lylat anyway

 

[WedginatorX]

Yeah I did lmao. Didn't realize how bad it was.
And that 2 minutes on the clock situation was pretty much our situation both games.
I'd love for you to give more input on the matchup if possible, and I appreciate your input so far, Orion.

Also, I've had a bit of success baiting approaches from MK and punishing with the invincibility on the spindash hop. Does anyone know how well this would work against tornado? Besides uthrow, I normally use side b to start most of my juggles on MK and juggles and our grab game are pretty much all we have on MK.

 

[Espy Rose]

Everything positive in our favor for the match up in this thread has been sugarcoated.
This match up is ridiculous. Easily our hardest -2.

 

[WedginatorX]

I can agree with that. I even think it's -3 if it's compared to -3s in other fighters, but I guess you can't really compare smash with other fighters.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

You guys have the poets gift of exaggeration.

 

[Espy Rose]

I could say the same for your group, but it's all opinion anyways.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Naaaaaaaaaaw, mine is 100% accurate.

Spoiler

You're right Espy. My opinion is warblegarble.

 

[Orion*]

Yeah I did lmao. Didn't realize how bad it was.
And that 2 minutes on the clock situation was pretty much our situation both games.
I'd love for you to give more input on the matchup if possible, and I appreciate your input so far, Orion.

Like, if theres something specific you want my input on you can ask me (just shoot questions), but i have no intention of doing a large writeup like that, especially for the general community.

Everything positive in our favor for the match up in this thread has been sugarcoated.

And most things that seem to be bad maybe you just add salt on

regardless i can easily agree with a -2

 

[Espy Rose]

Why would I add salt on it?
Sounds like it'd taste awful.

 

[Orion*]

youd be surprised how many people enjoy bad cuisine
especially in america

 

[Espy Rose]

That makes no sense.

 

[Conviction]

McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Five Guys, Steak and Shake, etc.

It's bad and if you like it you should feel bad

 

[Espy Rose]

I pity Georgia for having someone as soulless as Iblis.


On topic: I don't fully agree with a -2, but whatever. MK's gonna sugarcoat, and Meek is insane in the membrane.

 

[Conviction]

On topic: Idk this MU.

Off-topic: You do understand the translation of Iblis right? It should make sense

 

[Tesh]

I think it takes a little more than what MK has to bring it past -3, barring some sort of CG or extremely powerful gimping option.

I think it may be Sonic's worst (up there with olimar and lucario), but its not -3.

 

[BSP]

-3 is a bit of a stretch, but it's easily -2

 

[Life]

Minus something, obviously.

Then again, every matchup in the game that doesn't involve some sort of infinite or CG or such seems closer to me than it does to everyone else. Maybe I'm just not so jaded about this game yet.

-2, but I don't think it's as bad as the rest make it out. On paper, it's REALLY bad--so why has X made a habit of tearing up all but the very best MKs?

 

[WedginatorX]

The very best?
Definite overstatement.
People who lose to X don't know the matchup and make it obvious through their actions during the match.

 

[BSP]

When was the last time a notable MK that has Sonic experience dropped a set to a Sonic player?

Those MLG victories are long gone; people have gotten smarter now :\

 

[Orion*]

McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Five Guys, Steak and Shake, etc.

It's bad and if you like it you should feel bad

Thank you for explaining obvious

 

[Tesh]

Wedge, show me some videos of a "good mk that knows the matchup" avoiding spring and then punishing sonic during a juggle.

And I don't mean Sonic using it from waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high or not directly above MK.

I'd just like to see what a good MK does against a frame 5 hitbox that beats all of his moves.

 

[B.A.M.]

Uhh Meek posted pretty much everything I was going to post except for two things.

1. MK's edge drop uair ***** us harder than nado does. If he just goes to the side of the stage and baits our approach (or is up in % at all), he's virtually untouchable and you'll have to attempt to force ledge grabs on him. Spindash, grabs, ASC, dropdown fair, etc all get beaten out by mk just simply falling down off the stage and uairing. I'm working on ways to counterract this, most specifically being shield DI, but seeing as I've only touched the game twice since Apex I haven't made much progress.
The two best examples or this I know of are Tyrant and Orion.

2. Meek said that everybody bans YI against Sonic, but this isn't always the case with higher level metaknights. MK can operate fully well on YI and proper use of tornado still can beat iSDR. Like Meek said, if they ban YI take him to FD. However, if they ban FD instead of YI, you have a dilemma. I've had the most success vs. MK on smashville and surprisingly frigate. Smashville is most likely your next best option, just DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT take them to BF or Lylat, it will be the death of you.

I hope to get some shield DI stuff vs. MK up soon but life is keeping me busy, so we'll see.

uair doesnt work. you can do the ledge OS> guaranteed bair. everyone should seriously learn that. its not that hard. You could also just jump bait it and spring > dair. if they do anything afterwards they get hit by the spring and u are already back to the edge. Tyrant doesnt use that on me too much anymore.

I also want to encourage the usage of ftilt vs MK grounded/ short hop. When we tilt it up it stops sh fair, DA and dash grab. Obviously it has lag but if you are exercising proper spacing it can really help with MKs approach. Ftilt also sets up a dash in game for us where we can get some nice mix ups.

Our uair is amazing vs MK, we are one of the few that can battle dairs head on, however my advice for spacing uair against MK is to sweep under him, for as we all know the tip of the uair hitbox is small and sweeping under him allows us to elongate the tip. Doing that makes battling dair exponentially easier. Add to the fact we have a ton of frame traps out of uair, even against MKs AD which is short in frames, we get a ton of mileage being able to chase him down and abuse this aerial.

A few points:



- Some MKs will still LOL side b to the stage from the side which means free down tilted fsmash if u know how to time it.

- baiting grounded or aerial SL at the end can be punished with FH bair EVERYTIME ( that frame data) so know it as it could be a free kill.



- If MK likes to Fair, learn to back sh ASC. jumping back and charging ASC is amazing for whiff punishes in general, most particularly fairs in this MU. This can be huge in this MU cus a few of these will give amazing damage and put MK from a low to mid high % where uthrow> FH uair pressure is VERY SAFE. At times it could give the damage needed to finish off with spindash>bair.

- Drop down fair is mad good at interrupting nado so if u get out and u cant jump either spring or fair. DO NOT AD BACK INTO IT LIKE 90% OF THE COMMUNITY.if your spindash heavy ALWAYS be ready to retreat VSDJ so u can punish a nado if needed on reaction. HA loves to beat retreating nadoes so pay attention to their nado habits. HA is also pretty hilarious and will curve around MKs dair when below MK. This means at times u can get extra damage just by reading their jumping habits.
If the MK likes to down b to the ledge you can run off ff and dj nair or fair to land back on the stage and hit back out. ( ive also used spindash before to do it but that definitely isnt as easy.) If you have someone to practice this with, also learn how to use fair while edgeguarding MK. We can literally use fair for all of his b recoveries AND his glide. Of course the staple uair is very strong, but if u can get an MK relying on that then Spring shenanigans, using ledge invincibility and utilizing the ledge OS> bair can cover the rest provided you practice it. Learn the common recoveries of MK dependent on where he is. that helps a ton.

- both MK's dash grab AND DA lose to any characters standing grab; even Sonics.

- dont be afraid to walk when MKs in the air; even when hes nadoing. Our walk speed is good and you can walk until u see nado catch up and shield or chase when u see the retreat. This helps u keep closer to nado AND only use your shield when truly necessary (cuz youre obviously walking). This is good because we all know Nado has 30 frames of lag which equals a free smash for us which can be a "early" kill for us.

- If an MK does the "perfect landing" nado, please show them that is a misnomer and hit them with an aerial. It makes no sense to give them a chance to mix u up when they are wide open unless u a clean dsmash.

- If you have someone to practice this with, also learn how to use fair while edgeguarding MK. We can literally use fair for all of his b recoveries AND his glide. Of course the staple uair is very strong, but if u can get an MK relying on that then Spring shenanigans, using ledge invincibility and utilizing the ledge OS> bair can cover the rest provided you practice it. Learn the common recoveries of MK dependent on where he is. that helps a ton.



I really feel we do better against MK than a ton of the cast. I dont think its as bad all you make it out to be. And the majority of the time I dont really see anything that would make me feel otherwise. Espy, what really bothers you about this MU. I wanna know the specifics, as you believe big time this MU is trash for us.

Also I think ppl are knocking _X_ too much. I mean MLG was awhile ago, but his Sonic would decimate Tyrants MK, the same Tyrant who went toe to toe with Espy who we would all say is better than all of us. Hes beaten some strong players so i wouldnt say hes as "free" as everyone makes him out to be. I do believe hes mad inconsistent at times tho.


Hope you all are doing well, been working on some Med School Apps so I havent had the time to talk with you all. I need get my execution back : (

 

[B.A.M.]

Wedge, show me some videos of a "good mk that knows the matchup" avoiding spring and then punishing sonic during a juggle.

And I don't mean Sonic using it from waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high or not directly above MK.

I'd just like to see what a good MK does against a frame 5 hitbox that beats all of his moves.

sorry for the double post but at low% tesh they CAN take the hit and still punish us IF we dair right after. and theres people that will try to avoid spring and juggle us afterwards. HOWEVER, I do concur with the fact that spring IS a frame 5 projectile that if spaced properly makes it RIDICULOUSLY hard for us to be juggled. They have to bait it, hard. It shouldnt be easy imho. heck in certain scenarios u can aim the spring in front of a shield where instant dair is hard to punish. its very hard to punish springs if theyre used properly. Do you have any videos Wedge where some Sonics you think are using Spring properly STILL get punished ? We can all dissect it together.

 

[Tesh]

Yea Brawl is like that. Sometimes bad things just happen to your when you land hits at low percents. Especially when you are using a bad character like Sonic. For example, you will notice Espy will do laggy fairs on people after getting put into those nonsense throw traps (like MK dthrow). Sometimes there isn't a great way out, but you can trade damage instead of simply taking damage.

Hopefully you can land a good string or two on MK before he gets your percent high enough to juggle you well enough. It shouldn't take more than 35-50%. If you hit him away from the direction you are going to dair, he shouldn't be able to touch you, not even with shuttle loop.

In any case, Sonic doesn't go helpless after Up B. If you have a better idea (or so you think) you can still use to get past MK when you come back down. You don't have to buffer the dair.

For nado, its worth noting that sometimes you can airdodge through it and grab MK (if he is high enough off the ground), but you have to know when to try this.

 

[BSP]

BAM, you didn't give a MU ration opinion. What do you think?

 

[B.A.M.]

Yea Brawl is like that. Sometimes bad things just happen to your when you land hits at low percents. Especially when you are using a bad character like Sonic. For example, you will notice Espy will do laggy fairs on people after getting put into those nonsense throw traps (like MK dthrow). Sometimes there isn't a great way out, but you can trade damage instead of simply taking damage.

Hopefully you can land a good string or two on MK before he gets your percent high enough to juggle you well enough. It shouldn't take more than 35-50%. If you hit him away from the direction you are going to dair, he shouldn't be able to touch you, not even with shuttle loop.

In any case, Sonic doesn't go helpless after Up B. If you have a better idea (or so you think) you can still use to get past MK when you come back down. You don't have to buffer the dair.

For nado, its worth noting that sometimes you can airdodge through it and grab MK (if he is high enough off the ground), but you have to know when to try this.

I concur with the majority of what you said, and yes you can ff AD through nado and grab him however you have to either ff AD away or do it when its about to end. Theres so much better options AND safer options. The problem is most ppl attempt to ff AD and just end up ADing instead. Then they fall back into nado and start crying.

@ BSP: I personally think the MU is - 1 for us. Whenever I see a Sonic get smashed by MK its usually due to some absurd mistakes, which are usually player based. Even after playing some MKs at Apex, I still believe as such. I think a ton of Sonics get pressured by crap they shouldnt in the MU. Especially when you start check some frame data, certain things that MK gets away with at times is just freaking dumb. You fear MK; its over. Straight up. You have respect what hes got but ppl overdue it. We have answers to his dash in game, and our rush down mixup out of ASC and side b is El Fuerte -esque in design. If you can maintain good mid range spacing, it becomes difficult for MK as you really cant react to ASCSC/ ASC along with SDSC shenanigans. We can work in the air with our aerial game( I really believe people need to learn to sweep uair vs MK i think it helps a lot in extending our hitbox), and our walk speed and side b cancel aid us with one MK's seeming strong options in the MU, nado. Not just cuz we can punish nado; we can punish it with a dsmash and fsmash. That is HUGE imo. A punishment kill like that is as good as it gets for us.

That actually leads to another thing. I was showing some guys at APEX. That dsmash can be punished by fsmash although its timing is super strict. At the very least, it can be punished with fsmash after a PS ( the trick is to wait slightly so the input isnt misread) so utilizing certain attacks to bait a dsmash punish can be very strong for us.

Basically my opinion is this: we can punish a ton of things and although we cant really play TOO much footsies with him due to our normals, we wreck spacing. Once we get a knock up, we can use our uair range along with empty hops, spindashes to attack at odd angles and use our frame traps. We can punish things like SL and nado with kill moves, which are two things that MK tries to rely on often.

Yes hes MK; hes got AMAZING normals, close range we have nothing but in shield DI grab and jabs for the most part. His dash speed is good enough to follow spring escapes if they are done improperly. Nair can shut down blind spindashing effortlessly ( just like ours lol). A good MK can make recovering VERY difficult aka not free. And killing for him is less strenuous then it is for us. However our speed, mixup potential and damage output can force him at particular spacing and scenarios to have to be preemptive inorder to stop us. THATS where we can shine in the MU. But u have to be on point with punishments period. Out of all the MKs Ive played, I have yet to find dominant option that I couldnt get around. Even from Jason. Nado often seems to be that move but proper spacing from mid range and a little practice makes Nado fre damage FOR us.

thats where I stand.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Naaaaaaaaaaw, mine is 100% accurate.

Spoiler

You're right Espy. My opinion is warblegarble.

Wow @ this edit!!! You're outta control. Everyone knows that the Naruto Sonic mains list is 100% factual and has reasons behind each choice of who is who.