InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Better question:
What reputable Snakes do you beat with Sonic?
What reputable Snakes do you beat with Sonic?
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Sonic Mains
- Thread starter VEC
- Start date
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
Well i guess Cort says he one of the best
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
Haha lol! The Sonic Forums is boss. *Experienced Wifi for the first time last week. Failed horribly.*
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
I have done fairly decent with sonic in all of my matches against snake.
Its always down to last stock, i don't remember who what when where why of it
Its always down to last stock, i don't remember who what when where why of it
IceDX
Smash Ace
SONIC does Fairly Good agaist snake, his an equal match.... but if those granades get into ur head and u start getting too close to him without being cautios, snake will pummel u with the unexplained hitboxs of his jab, f tilt ,etc...
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Memphis, you need to beat people like Cort, PC, and the like, then tell me that Snake is easy. That's like me saying MK is super easy, having never faced a good MK, ever.
Ice, go play DSF and tell me that it's still even.
Ice, go play DSF and tell me that it's still even.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
I have played both, and done well, but not their snakes.
Pc's ganon is too good btw, he does the ganon pogo.
And uh, I know I beat Cort's something, but I can't remember.
I've two Stocked good Mk's as well, SiYkO's infact, although if he see's this we will john like hell and say that he is better, which is is, but thats not the point.
IN ANYCASE, Sonic should seriously NOT LOSE TO SNAKE. That is on paper, its all in the player's hands after that. I have beaten ASL? before, but thats the only one that has come to mind that I know I have beaten. Well, I was owning Solid Jakes in teams, but eh, that doesn't count.
Idk, if I ever get a chance to record then I will. My sonic has a really good rep on the east coast somehow, but w/e. I forgot where I was going with this.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
You should record. Also, play Cort and PC's Snakes, if you can. Or DSF's, when he heads over there.
Glad to hear that PC still plays Ganon on occasion. Too good.
Glad to hear that PC still plays Ganon on occasion. Too good.
IceDX
Smash Ace
I never Said it Was Easy, what i wass trying to say is that its Not Imposible for a good Sonic
player to beat a good Snake Thats all...
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
I mean, if I get a chance to I will. I don't see them very often, Only at like esticles and mass madnesseseses
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Umby
Smash Master
http://www.smogon.com/forums/member.php?u=1546
Notice the signature.
http://smashboards.com/member.php?u=18580
Click on about me and notice the signature.
Notice the signature.
http://smashboards.com/member.php?u=18580
Click on about me and notice the signature.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Who the hell is that?
Hella
Smash Apprentice
*cough*
If I may...
On the subject of Sonic vs. Snake:
I've heard a lot of Sonic mains claim that "Snake is no problem for Sonic..."
...I think that what they are trying to say is "Snake doesn't counter Sonic as hard as some of the other characters."
Sonic vs Snake is not a good match-up. Not at all. We're talking one of the game's heaviest characters vs, possibly, the game's weakest overall character. Sonic has some nice Snake counter-stages, however, Rainbow Cruise is just wonderful. I've also found Luigi's Mansion to be great, too (depending on tournament rules, of course).
A good Snake, or even a fairly-decent Snake can be a challenge. Snakes who spam neutral B can really give a Sonic player a hard time. Down/forward B sets off grenades and mines. Not to mention how easy it is for a Snake to predict a down/forward B into a remote mine.
The strategy with Sonic (as well as most characters) vs Snake is shield...
...a lot. Play extremely careful.
List of characters that I believe are bigger threats to Sonic than Snake (in order):
1. Dedede
2. Ice Climbers
3. Lucario
4. Diddy Kong
5. Meta Knight
6. Wario
7. Fox
8. Olimar
If I may...
On the subject of Sonic vs. Snake:
I've heard a lot of Sonic mains claim that "Snake is no problem for Sonic..."
...I think that what they are trying to say is "Snake doesn't counter Sonic as hard as some of the other characters."
Sonic vs Snake is not a good match-up. Not at all. We're talking one of the game's heaviest characters vs, possibly, the game's weakest overall character. Sonic has some nice Snake counter-stages, however, Rainbow Cruise is just wonderful. I've also found Luigi's Mansion to be great, too (depending on tournament rules, of course).
A good Snake, or even a fairly-decent Snake can be a challenge. Snakes who spam neutral B can really give a Sonic player a hard time. Down/forward B sets off grenades and mines. Not to mention how easy it is for a Snake to predict a down/forward B into a remote mine.
The strategy with Sonic (as well as most characters) vs Snake is shield...
...a lot. Play extremely careful.
List of characters that I believe are bigger threats to Sonic than Snake (in order):
1. Dedede
2. Ice Climbers
3. Lucario
4. Diddy Kong
5. Meta Knight
6. Wario
7. Fox
8. Olimar
OFY
Sonic main since 08'
I can't believe you didn't put Luigi on that list.
Hella
Smash Apprentice
I may have - had I more Luigi experience, but every Luigi I've faught in tournament has been easy enough.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I haven't had problems with D3, and I tend to keep the ICs separated, but I haven't fought anyone that both can do the infinite, and is decent, so I 'onno about that one for sure.
Why Diddy and Fox? Lucario, I can kinda understand, due to the massive priority and damage boosters, and I feel ya on MK and Olimar (kinda agree on Wario, though once you become familiar with the match-up, it's really not all that bad).
Here's a question, and I'm assuming you're DBR Hella: I'm POSITIVE you have a bunch of really campy ROB players in SoCal, and some of them are probably decent. How do you do against them, and how do you get around them?
That said, I still think Luigi is Sonic's most solid counter.
Hella
Smash Apprentice
Luigi, huh?
Interesting, I'll have to look into that.
In the few tournaments I've been to I've only had to fight 2 luigis, but I'll have to watch out for that.
The only socal robs I've ever played have been in teams, so its hard to say, norcal has a few robs but not so campy. Typically, rob doesn't scare me so much. He's huge, which is great for sonic but, like you said, there are those campy robs out there where it won't matter how big he is. Sonic, however, is so quick that its easy for him to eliminate rob's ledge-game. His slow recovery also helps. From what I've gathered, rob isn't too bad of a match.
DDD, though, Sonic's dumbest match ever.
I'm gonna stick to that. I have tons of DDD practice thanks to Zelgadis and I still get beat by the most random of DDDs.
Let's looks at a few things:
1. Sonic lacks many things, obviously. One of his main downfalls is his range, he has so few safe moves. What does DDD have? One of the biggest grab ranges in the game, not to mention his chaingrab. Through all of the practice and different tactics I've tried to come up with for DDD I've found out that spacing is nearly impossible. The only move I've found Sonic has that MIGHT avoid a grab if spaced PERFECTLY is back air. And we're talking perfectly, in the heat of a fight. Jumping fall-away back airs. You might be thinking down B, idiot. I don't know any DDD players around here that aren’t so good at grabbing that they will grab sonic right out of his down or forward B. Forward, neutral, up, and (up B) down airs are all definite no's, of course. Same with B moves.
2. DDD is heavy, hella heavy. Sonic is weak, hella weak. But, lets say you've somehow knocked DDD off the stage. Sonic isn't so bad off-stage. Some characters will actually fear some of sonic's options off-stage. So many DDDs, for whatever reason, will constantly be throwing out aerial moves as they jump back to the stage. Why? I don't know. They just do. And not one of Sonic's aerial moves can come close to beating them on priority. Sonic cannot beat DDD off the stage. He just can't. Waaaaaay too risky, its like jumping into a buzz-saw and trying to touch the blade without getting cut. And I'm talking DDDs that don't know how to fight a sonic.
3. A lot of sonics (and DDDs) think that sonic can go combo crazy on DDD cause of his size and weight. Its sorta true. But killing DDDs with up air is HARD. My only chances are when I predict the air dodge and wait to up air. But many DDDs will simply throw out a move. A down air can potentially kill sonic. By the time you have a DDD at the right height to reach with an up B up air he'll be able to down air you no problem.
4. Now think of all the advantages DDD has vs all characters. Neutral B to suicide, back-air money-shots (way easier to do than docs), chaingrabbing, up tilt KOs, forward B spam, and, of course, those random gordos. I've fought a few DDDs that use only grab, and up tilt. It works.
As for your other character questions:
Ice Climbers:
Sonic, regardless of how fast, is easy to grab. So naturally, Ice Climbers that infinite mess sonics up. Not just that, but Ice Climbers that down B spam also seem to give sonic an extremely hard time. I've had to fight some IC players that will get the two climbers to take turns doing jumping down Bs. Sonic isn't left with many options as I'm sure you could imagine considering his downward air game sucks.
Diddy:
Its sorta like Sonic vs Sonic with bananas. There are a number of really good Diddy players here in norcal and banana camping seems to be a very popular tactic. In my opinion, the banana is an artificial mind-game. It makes the diddy player think they're outsmarting people when really, they're taking bananas and throwing them in different directions and hoping the other player happens to slip on them. Course, that is for all characters, not just sonic. One thing I've began to notice, is if you control the bananas, its very hard for the diddy to gain momentum. In fact, you can often-times use bananas better than the diddy player can (for example: banana to fully charged Samus neutral B, or banana to Marth forward smash). Sonic, however, does not have that luxury. Most I can usually pull off is a banana to grab or a banana to dash attack. Sonic's KO moves are just too short or completely unusable in that situation. Although, I must admit, sonic's dash attack is awesome for picking up bananas. Oh yeah, so why I think the fight is like Sonic vs Sonic: Both characters are hella weak and relatively quick. 'Cept diddy has a better camping game. I've had way more than a few matches with diddy players that have gone to the time limit.
Fox:
This one I'm not as certain as the others, I haven’t played THAT many foxes. But sonic, like most characters, sucks against smaller characters, not to mention characters that jump extremely high. Fighting a fox is like someone throwing up a handful of marbles into the air and being like "Alright! Catch the blue one!" What I'm trying to say is: He's hard to hit. Trying to aim your moves towards a fox is extremely frustrating. Especially knowing that with each miss your move is becoming weaker and smaller. What's worse is fox is always in the air looking to land that down air. I believe that fox is harder to fight than snake for sonic.
DDD, though, definitely. Worst ever. I still gotta see about luigi.
Interesting, I'll have to look into that.
In the few tournaments I've been to I've only had to fight 2 luigis, but I'll have to watch out for that.
The only socal robs I've ever played have been in teams, so its hard to say, norcal has a few robs but not so campy. Typically, rob doesn't scare me so much. He's huge, which is great for sonic but, like you said, there are those campy robs out there where it won't matter how big he is. Sonic, however, is so quick that its easy for him to eliminate rob's ledge-game. His slow recovery also helps. From what I've gathered, rob isn't too bad of a match.
DDD, though, Sonic's dumbest match ever.
I'm gonna stick to that. I have tons of DDD practice thanks to Zelgadis and I still get beat by the most random of DDDs.
Let's looks at a few things:
1. Sonic lacks many things, obviously. One of his main downfalls is his range, he has so few safe moves. What does DDD have? One of the biggest grab ranges in the game, not to mention his chaingrab. Through all of the practice and different tactics I've tried to come up with for DDD I've found out that spacing is nearly impossible. The only move I've found Sonic has that MIGHT avoid a grab if spaced PERFECTLY is back air. And we're talking perfectly, in the heat of a fight. Jumping fall-away back airs. You might be thinking down B, idiot. I don't know any DDD players around here that aren’t so good at grabbing that they will grab sonic right out of his down or forward B. Forward, neutral, up, and (up B) down airs are all definite no's, of course. Same with B moves.
2. DDD is heavy, hella heavy. Sonic is weak, hella weak. But, lets say you've somehow knocked DDD off the stage. Sonic isn't so bad off-stage. Some characters will actually fear some of sonic's options off-stage. So many DDDs, for whatever reason, will constantly be throwing out aerial moves as they jump back to the stage. Why? I don't know. They just do. And not one of Sonic's aerial moves can come close to beating them on priority. Sonic cannot beat DDD off the stage. He just can't. Waaaaaay too risky, its like jumping into a buzz-saw and trying to touch the blade without getting cut. And I'm talking DDDs that don't know how to fight a sonic.
3. A lot of sonics (and DDDs) think that sonic can go combo crazy on DDD cause of his size and weight. Its sorta true. But killing DDDs with up air is HARD. My only chances are when I predict the air dodge and wait to up air. But many DDDs will simply throw out a move. A down air can potentially kill sonic. By the time you have a DDD at the right height to reach with an up B up air he'll be able to down air you no problem.
4. Now think of all the advantages DDD has vs all characters. Neutral B to suicide, back-air money-shots (way easier to do than docs), chaingrabbing, up tilt KOs, forward B spam, and, of course, those random gordos. I've fought a few DDDs that use only grab, and up tilt. It works.
As for your other character questions:
Ice Climbers:
Sonic, regardless of how fast, is easy to grab. So naturally, Ice Climbers that infinite mess sonics up. Not just that, but Ice Climbers that down B spam also seem to give sonic an extremely hard time. I've had to fight some IC players that will get the two climbers to take turns doing jumping down Bs. Sonic isn't left with many options as I'm sure you could imagine considering his downward air game sucks.
Diddy:
Its sorta like Sonic vs Sonic with bananas. There are a number of really good Diddy players here in norcal and banana camping seems to be a very popular tactic. In my opinion, the banana is an artificial mind-game. It makes the diddy player think they're outsmarting people when really, they're taking bananas and throwing them in different directions and hoping the other player happens to slip on them. Course, that is for all characters, not just sonic. One thing I've began to notice, is if you control the bananas, its very hard for the diddy to gain momentum. In fact, you can often-times use bananas better than the diddy player can (for example: banana to fully charged Samus neutral B, or banana to Marth forward smash). Sonic, however, does not have that luxury. Most I can usually pull off is a banana to grab or a banana to dash attack. Sonic's KO moves are just too short or completely unusable in that situation. Although, I must admit, sonic's dash attack is awesome for picking up bananas. Oh yeah, so why I think the fight is like Sonic vs Sonic: Both characters are hella weak and relatively quick. 'Cept diddy has a better camping game. I've had way more than a few matches with diddy players that have gone to the time limit.
Fox:
This one I'm not as certain as the others, I haven’t played THAT many foxes. But sonic, like most characters, sucks against smaller characters, not to mention characters that jump extremely high. Fighting a fox is like someone throwing up a handful of marbles into the air and being like "Alright! Catch the blue one!" What I'm trying to say is: He's hard to hit. Trying to aim your moves towards a fox is extremely frustrating. Especially knowing that with each miss your move is becoming weaker and smaller. What's worse is fox is always in the air looking to land that down air. I believe that fox is harder to fight than snake for sonic.
DDD, though, definitely. Worst ever. I still gotta see about luigi.
MdrnDayMercutio
Smash Champion
Izzy, going back a page or two, yes it is the same KrazyJones. He was at Hayato's last tourney and is Sonic is really good. It was great watching him play. East Coast is starting to get a couple really good Sonic's. It makes me happy.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
Hella, yay!
Can I get some of your tournament results to add to the Results Thread?
and where the hell did you come from? your appearance is kind of random
Can I get some of your tournament results to add to the Results Thread?
and where the hell did you come from? your appearance is kind of random
Cat Fight
Smash Lord
Solid Jake... lol
Chris if you wanna record some matches I'll be happy to lend my Snake skillz + camera.
Sometime after MassMad?
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
Yes, sir cat fight
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I was wondering where he was. I don't see Aftermath much either. I thought Chu Dat picked up Sonic too. And there was someone else.....
Cat Fight
Smash Lord
I don't think Chu plays Smash anymore...
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
yeah he does
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
First off, sorry about forgetting that you're NorCal and not SoCal.
Also, usmash, fair, and uair are my favourite moves in this fight, though I guess you could get grabbed outta poorly spaced usmashes, or predictable fairs.
One thing Forward commented on when watching my Sonic at AZOneTwo was that I didn't really uair, especially not as much as you do. It confused him, but I just find it to be less reliable than bair or fair. Maybe our playstyle differences contribute to our specific match-up problems?
Also, I have to see this Sonic tat that Forward was talking about. :D!
You guys should consider coming to my tournament in August. It's going to be pretty big, and it'd be nice to see some of DBR again. Only chilled with you guys once, but it was a lot of fun. If you can't come though, no worries.
Still, I believe you on this one. I need to fight some really good ICs sometime soon.
dair, so much.
Again, though, you play higher quality Diddys than I do, so I'm not entirely sure how feasible my advice is.
Just my experience, though.
It might just be my general inexperience in the match-up. At AZOneTwo, a campy ROB put me into loser's after I wrecked his Pit. I knew what he was going to do, but not to get around it. My biggest problem was when they'd hide right next to the top and nair, since I couldn't get in fast enough to punish. D:
Can't Sonic spring out after the first two or three? That's been my experience, but no one else is talking about it. D:
Also, usmash, fair, and uair are my favourite moves in this fight, though I guess you could get grabbed outta poorly spaced usmashes, or predictable fairs.
I typicallly leave him alone for fear of being D3cided, but dair seems to work rather well, due to how slow he is in the air. Just make sure you start it from the right angle, and before he starts the 'cide. It should beat most anything, sides from prolly his bair. After that, go back to the stage and wait for the upb.
I don't try to kill him with the uair. I've done it, granted, but it's stupid stuff like dash attack into setting the spring right where he's gonna land, to spring uair. Even then, I prefer dthrowing near the edge, dairing him (or baiting him by jumping off, then getting back on without doing anything), or dropping a spring on him. Even if it doesn't kill him, free damage is free damage. Hit 'em outta the up b for more damage, repeat.
One thing Forward commented on when watching my Sonic at AZOneTwo was that I didn't really uair, especially not as much as you do. It confused him, but I just find it to be less reliable than bair or fair. Maybe our playstyle differences contribute to our specific match-up problems?
It could also be that our D3 players aren't quite on Cali's level. AZ had no one that played D3 that was of note, and all we have is Mikezor. I'd really like to run over to NorCal and play Zelgadis sometime, to see if it's just the quality of the people I play that makes this match-up better for me, or if it's a difference in playstyles.
Also, I have to see this Sonic tat that Forward was talking about. :D!
You guys should consider coming to my tournament in August. It's going to be pretty big, and it'd be nice to see some of DBR again. Only chilled with you guys once, but it was a lot of fun. If you can't come though, no worries.
Yeah, I've only played this match-up a few times, and I just focus on the not getting grabbed/hit deal (moreso than usual). It seems like it's not fun, and that you have to play kinda campy against them. Usmash is, again, my favourite move. Separate them, then combo nana with bairs facing forward (teh tummeh), and end with dsmash or dair, and she's normally dead. After that, it's a lot easier.
Still, I believe you on this one. I need to fight some really good ICs sometime soon.
I view it as Sonic v Sonic with bananas, as well. Glide-toss to whatever smash works fairly well, for me. A lot of Diddy players freak out if you don't worry about the bananas/work around them fine. Also, gimpable recovery, given that you can tech.
dair, so much.Again, though, you play higher quality Diddys than I do, so I'm not entirely sure how feasible my advice is.
Perfect shields and grabs is what I do in this match-up. Also, he's like... the 2nd or 3rd lightest character in the game. Guy dies so early, it makes Sonic feel strong. I'm actually well versed in this match-up, and the Fox I play is none-too-shabby. I play him like I do Wolf, as far as stressing how important it is to perfect shield the universe. Bthrow usmash works for early/mid damage building, and bthrow in general is sexy in this match-up. Also, Fox is so easy to gimp that it's somewhat ironic. I 'onno, his lack of range on most of his moves is also a problem, as Sonic can outspace and punish. Once you get to about 80%, start focusing on not getting hit by his usmash, and most Fox players will either change to bair and fsmash, or just fall apart and get really desperate for the kills.
Just my experience, though.
Luigi is a nightmare. He just shuts down Sonic soooo well it's not even funny. I'd rather fight Snake and MK teamed than this guy. D:
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
.
Can you show me a gameplay vid of you facing a DDD?
I've faced a number of DDD users and I don't have great difficulty when facing them.
I used to have issues until I realized I was just being too agressive at times and not making use of my cancels as I should or would miss punishing oppurtunities.
The Chaingrab is not the largest issue for Sonic. At most he can get maybe 3 or 4 before sonic can spring away even if he does slow down its degradation with a few grab hits.
The best thing for spacing DDD I find is simply to stay just out of his reach, that way he can't grab you or Ftilt you but you can still rush in and punish him.
His Bair and Ftilt do work as a method of fending Sonic off but I find that as soon as DDD throws out a Bair can move in and shield grab him due to his lack of aerial movement. Ftilt is a little annoying but I find that making use of homing attacks and spacing my Bairs, I can actually hit him at the right angle and avoid being hit.
I find DDD to be the easiest to space IMO.
Bair, Nair, he can only grab you when you are a certain distance away from the ground. and frankly you shouldn't be placing yourself too close for a DDD CG. Especially when you have your Fair, Bair that allow good movement.
DDD is one of thse characters that while he looks intimidating, it isn't as bad as it seems.
His hitboxes are actually quite narrow so you can hit him when he is trying to wall.
And he is slow enough to punish.
At the peak of your jump he cannot grab you and considering you are quick enough with your charges and spindashes you'll be hard to grab.
Not only that the most damage I've taken from a DDD is not from grabs but his tilts.
^B also gets you out early since the move degrades even when they hit you a few times before the throw.
=
Sonic's aerial attacks outspeed many of DDD's and the Fair when used initially as the Nair can break DDD's Nair.
DDD's Fair comes out too slowly, Uair stays out too long and Bairing can be risky considering Sonic is faster in the air and can get over him, under him and attack him at an angle very quickly.
Or if you are worried you can wait for him at the stage.
DDD is really hindered once he is off the stage especially if you start pressuring him. You don't need to go out and attack him but just by constantly being near him and outside of his attack range will hinder his progress since he will attempt to attack you as a method to fend you off.
he can't sweetspot the ledge either since you can get there faster than him.
if he ^B's he ends up very vulnerable.
You don't need to actively attack him but simply pressuring him alone will give you an advantage.
Don't go for Uair kills.
In this matchup the Uair is best for harrassment as well as damage racking.
Or mix things up, spring to Bair is quite good (depending on which way he is facing)
as is the Fair.
Mainly since mot people expect a Uair from Sonic rather than a Fair or a Bair.
Considering DDD has low aerial speed you can abuse it and continue maintaining pressure on him.
If you are getting beaten by DDD's who are only grabbing and U tilting, or are having a tough time, you really have to consider what you are doing wrong. Those two moves are not best for keeping Sonic away, I find that the Ftilt is more dangerous since it can slow down Sonic's ground work and force him to the air.
DDD doesn't keep Sonic away for very long because of Sonic's many approaches.
I also find that Usmashing is good as well I think it may actually get him over the Ftilt when its DAC'ed.
Not too sure I'll test that.
WOah no he isn't, the ice climbers are nowhere near as dangerous as DDD when it comes to grabbing.
Their CG relies on Nana being close as well as the fact that they need to be much closer to the opponent .
you can easily avoid it by spacing your Bairs right or overshooting your SH Fairs.
Either smack Nana away so they can't CG you, or make use of your spindash and your spinshot and your homing attack and everything else.
The IC's have some of the smallest grab range in the game and they can't punish with a grab like they could in melee anymore.
How?
Down B stays out too long and while it does have good range its not a move that is awesome by any means against sonic.
For one your distance should be midrange, that means they can only iceblock you which is repelled by your spindashes, spin shots and other aerial approaches.
They can be tough in the air due to their priority but the ability to approach them isn't as great as people think.
The CG is far from being dangerous to Sonic.
What you have to look out for is everything else.
The best way to handle them is to separate the IC's something that in't har dot do with Sonic and once you have separated them, beating thm becomes much easier.
Concentrate on separating them, once you've done that they won't be as dangerous.
You have to paly defensively when facing them but once you've gotten nana out the way things are much easier.
heck you don't even need to KO nana simply knocking her off the stage and turning on Popo is a good method of fighting, because Nana will be busy trying to recover and popo will have to fend for himself.
Glide toss those bananas! If yo are having problems landing your smashes glide toss them!
Glide tossed Dsmash is really good abuse it.
I agree it can be tough but once you get ahold of those bananas you can really put a hurting on Diddy.
I actually find it tolerable. Lasers are no good against Sonic.
Dtilt can keep Fox and you can combo into a Usmash/Utilt.
What you have to do is prevent him from pressuring, which is not difficult considering Fox has a poor approach.
Aerially Fox can be dangerous but like other character the hitboxes of his aerials is narrow and if you set things up right (which isn't overly difficult) you can really put a hurting on Fox.
As soon as Fox loses the momentum he's gained it'll be a bit difficult for him to regain it.
He;s by no means Diddy when it comes to momentum but he can havea tough time, especially off the stage.
Don't go out there , wait for him to phantasm and punish him hard.
I think the reason you have such difficulty with DDD is the playstyle you may be using when you play him. Videos please?
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Keep in mind, he's also playing Zel's D3, which is why I said it might just be the quality of the D3s he's playing, as opposed to who I play.
Hella's good people.
Hella's good people.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Stupid DBR and your **** and subsequent Death causing.
I wish there was a crew nearby I could get good matches with. T_T
I wish there was a crew nearby I could get good matches with. T_T
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
I love to see the differences in character development by regions.
Here, East Coast, or New England in any case, Dedede is a relatively easy match up. It is extremely interesting to me to see that across the country, a Sonic with a reputation thinks the opposite. Although, we don't have many kids that grab us out of spin dashes. Your point are valid, Hella, and whoever is in charge of the Character matchup thread should take his points into consideration.
When I play a Dedede, I have found that I use Homing attack way more, and Diar. So I kinda agree with IoZ's tactics, but try using the homing attack more too (onstage rather, and not during spin dashes if your getting grabbed in them). I noticed that after I hit, the opposite will jump set up for either another Homing attack or Bair at mid percentages.
Here, East Coast, or New England in any case, Dedede is a relatively easy match up. It is extremely interesting to me to see that across the country, a Sonic with a reputation thinks the opposite. Although, we don't have many kids that grab us out of spin dashes. Your point are valid, Hella, and whoever is in charge of the Character matchup thread should take his points into consideration.
When I play a Dedede, I have found that I use Homing attack way more, and Diar. So I kinda agree with IoZ's tactics, but try using the homing attack more too (onstage rather, and not during spin dashes if your getting grabbed in them). I noticed that after I hit, the opposite will jump set up for either another Homing attack or Bair at mid percentages.
Hella
Smash Apprentice
I'll admit, because I'm in DBR I have a tendancy to play very flashy and even a bit risky.
Not against DDD, though.
- dramatic silence -
Oh, so when's the tournament?
And where, I have some time to travel now that I'm not working (and possibly some other members of DBR).
Until then, I'm gonna practice.
Not against DDD, though.
- dramatic silence -
Oh, so when's the tournament?
And where, I have some time to travel now that I'm not working (and possibly some other members of DBR).
Until then, I'm gonna practice.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
The tournament is August 9th. We're finalizing the ruleset and fees very soon. SSB64, SSBM, and Brawl will be there, and we might have another game there on display.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176818
Here's the thread.
We're supposed to have a lot of high rep/rank players showing up for this. I need to talk to DSF and Ajax soon to confirm if they're coming. Same goes for SK92 and the like.
Free housing is a guarantee for anyone coming from OoS, especially people that we're as cool with as NorCal's players. Bring Zoap, too. I miss that man. D:
It's in Colorado, btw. !D:D!
I dunno about D3, I'll try to get some matches done soon against Mikezor's, and see if we can put them up for you to check out/etc. Worst case scenario, you can crit Mikezor's D3. Best, you see what I do against D3.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176818
Here's the thread.
We're supposed to have a lot of high rep/rank players showing up for this. I need to talk to DSF and Ajax soon to confirm if they're coming. Same goes for SK92 and the like.
Free housing is a guarantee for anyone coming from OoS, especially people that we're as cool with as NorCal's players. Bring Zoap, too. I miss that man. D:
It's in Colorado, btw. !D:D!
I dunno about D3, I'll try to get some matches done soon against Mikezor's, and see if we can put them up for you to check out/etc. Worst case scenario, you can crit Mikezor's D3. Best, you see what I do against D3.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
yeah of course.
So you did play flashy! I knew it! BAD HELLA.hella said:
nah j/k
Anyways one thing I noticed from watching your videos is that your sonic is pretty offensive. I think the issue might be because even if its not intentional, you're being too offensive towards DDD and so he blocks you out since you're being direct.
I want to go to a tournament too!hella said:
=(
I'm so busy.
Edit: This site also blocks Jamaican curses too. Just noticed afte rhte typo I made XD
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I agree with Hella that the ICs absolutely wreck Sonic.
Via desynching, it's possible to have one climber use blizzard and have the other one blizzard in the same direction as soon as the first one ends; this effectively creates a big, permanent disjointed hitbox in front of the ICs that Sonic has a really, really hard time getting around. Unless I'm at a disadvantage, I have no obligation to approach Sonic and can just sit there and wait for him to approach. If for whatever reason I do want to approach Sonic, it's easy to move forward while still keeping up the alternating blizzards.
There are very few ways for Sonic to get around this. He can try to approach from above, but that's not very safe since the ICs are very good at controlling the space directly above them. While it is possible for Sonic to successfully approach from above, chances are that the ICs will come out on top. I suspect that Sonic could try to jump into the blizzard at a weird angle and DI to the other side of the ICs, also, although none of the Sonic's I've played try this and I doubt that this is very safe, either. I'm interested in hearing what other suggestions for getting around this people here have.
If I'm in a bad position to use alternating blizzards, it's not a huge deal since the ICs can still hold their own against Sonic without them, and when I do manage to regain control of the match, I can go back to blizzard camping.
This really just isn't a hard match-up at all for the ICs in my experience.
The ICs' CGs in general are really overrated; almost everything the ICs can do can be escaped below about 80%. The ICs' grabs still ****, but they're not one of the reasons I think this match-up is ridiculously one-sided.
Blizzard is amazing against Sonic; I don't think you understand the role it plays in this match-up. The point of blizzard isn't to do damage at close range. Heck, the point of blizzard isn't even to hit Sonic with blizzard. Blizzard's purpose is to utterly stop all of Sonic's half-decent offensive options.
Via desynching, it's possible to have one climber use blizzard and have the other one blizzard in the same direction as soon as the first one ends; this effectively creates a big, permanent disjointed hitbox in front of the ICs that Sonic has a really, really hard time getting around. Unless I'm at a disadvantage, I have no obligation to approach Sonic and can just sit there and wait for him to approach. If for whatever reason I do want to approach Sonic, it's easy to move forward while still keeping up the alternating blizzards.
There are very few ways for Sonic to get around this. He can try to approach from above, but that's not very safe since the ICs are very good at controlling the space directly above them. While it is possible for Sonic to successfully approach from above, chances are that the ICs will come out on top. I suspect that Sonic could try to jump into the blizzard at a weird angle and DI to the other side of the ICs, also, although none of the Sonic's I've played try this and I doubt that this is very safe, either. I'm interested in hearing what other suggestions for getting around this people here have.
If I'm in a bad position to use alternating blizzards, it's not a huge deal since the ICs can still hold their own against Sonic without them, and when I do manage to regain control of the match, I can go back to blizzard camping.
This really just isn't a hard match-up at all for the ICs in my experience.
Hm... BT plays IC's and even though he doesn't CG so well online, I did get to experience having to get around Blizzard. It is a bit problematic, since it covers ASC's path, which bothers me personally since it's one of my favorite approaches, but there are still alternatives.
It can be disrupted via spring drop, which opens up a small window of time where you're either shielding or desynched "out of control" from the spring drop. If approaching from above, I'll either N-air or spring drop > lagless D-air out of immediate range.
Normal jumps are pretty slow and IC can react to that quickly and turn around while Sonic is moving past them, but spinshot (high-velocity fullhop) can get him behind you at running speed. From there, I can either FF B-air and hit one of you, or more dangerously, land behind you and roll through you, predicting/assuming that you'll turn around, or tilt you through shield. etc, it's rather open, actually.
Homing attack tends to do this job rather mechanically, and aiming above/slightly behind you- pretty much hitting above and behind Blizzard, but in most cases, this is shieldable and punishable, but if timed correctly, it will hit whichever IC is doing blizzard.
IMO it's slightly reminiscent of getting around Snake's F-tilt, but with added, dynamic hitboxes above/behind, and without the running pshieldgrab option. I'm sure you can find answers to that, but then it becomes player vs player - who finds the most answers to which counter moves.
It can be disrupted via spring drop, which opens up a small window of time where you're either shielding or desynched "out of control" from the spring drop. If approaching from above, I'll either N-air or spring drop > lagless D-air out of immediate range.
Normal jumps are pretty slow and IC can react to that quickly and turn around while Sonic is moving past them, but spinshot (high-velocity fullhop) can get him behind you at running speed. From there, I can either FF B-air and hit one of you, or more dangerously, land behind you and roll through you, predicting/assuming that you'll turn around, or tilt you through shield. etc, it's rather open, actually.
Homing attack tends to do this job rather mechanically, and aiming above/slightly behind you- pretty much hitting above and behind Blizzard, but in most cases, this is shieldable and punishable, but if timed correctly, it will hit whichever IC is doing blizzard.
IMO it's slightly reminiscent of getting around Snake's F-tilt, but with added, dynamic hitboxes above/behind, and without the running pshieldgrab option. I'm sure you can find answers to that, but then it becomes player vs player - who finds the most answers to which counter moves.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
There are very few ways for Sonic to get around this. He can try to approach from above, but that's not very safe since the ICs are very good at controlling the space directly above them. While it is possible for Sonic to successfully approach from above, chances are that the ICs will come out on top. I suspect that Sonic could try to jump into the blizzard at a weird angle and DI to the other side of the ICs, also, although none of the Sonic's I've played try this and I doubt that this is very safe, either. I'm interested in hearing what other suggestions for getting around this people here have.
If I'm in a bad position to use alternating blizzards, it's not a huge deal since the ICs can still hold their own against Sonic without them, and when I do manage to regain control of the match, I can go back to blizzard camping.
This really just isn't a hard match-up at all for the ICs in my experience.[/QUOTE]
. It does pressure Sonic into attacking from the air but in the air I have various methods of attacking.
Of course blizzar dis a good move and there is no method Sonic has thats 100% safe against it.
A spinshot~Dair/Nair I find is effective. its fast and keeps me low enough so that the IC can't SH a Uair before I can attack and if I feel that I'll be threatened I can continue on to land behind the IC user (who more often than not will have dysynched to perform the blizzard).
If they haven't dysynched I can use a spring drop or Dair.
Spring dropping I find is useful as well, it may not be fast but it does help to disrupt the IC blizzard.
I also like to bait with the homing attack. spinshot~delayed homing attack can be useful because the Uair has a narrow hit box and the delay means they may attack too early and get hit by the homing attack.
Of course not saying that the IC's don't have an advantage over Sonic, they do, but I don't think its something along the lines of 8:2 or 7:3.
Of course I am going from my experience with other IC users so I'll wait for the responses of other Sonic mains.
Browny
Smash Hater
who in the cast has an easier time of separating the IC's, and keeping nana juggled indefinitely / WOP bair for a cheap kill? anthinus' videos show it pretty well, as soon as they are separated, he doesnt let them get back at all. thats gotta be worth something