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[VKatana]

My friend keeps trying to tell me Sonic is Yoshi's worst MU. Isn't it 50/50? Apparently the entire Yoshi boards think Sonic is the worst MU.

 

[BSP]

The amount of character boards who think Sonic is their worst match-up is simply adorable.

How do you guys feel about Sonic vs Pac-Man? I feel like it's the latter's worst for sure. He basically can't do anything without getting punished :\

 

[Lukingordex]

My friend keeps trying to tell me Sonic is Yoshi's worst MU. Isn't it 50/50? Apparently the entire Yoshi boards think Sonic is the worst MU.

The Yoshi boards believes that Sheik is Yoshi's worst MU, not Sanic.

It's probably 55/45 or something like that in Sonic's favor.

 

[Camalange]

Well idk about the other characters but Sonic is definitely Ness' hardest match up.

Still seems like an over exaggeration.

Like, pretty sure Sheik would still handle Ness better. Sonic has certain advantages but it's not like Ness is free.

My friend keeps trying to tell me Sonic is Yoshi's worst MU. Isn't it 50/50? Apparently the entire Yoshi boards think Sonic is the worst MU.

Not true at all.

How do you guys feel about Sonic vs Pac-Man? I feel like it's the latter's worst for sure. He basically can't do anything without getting punished :\

Rosaluma seems like a pretty hard counter to Pac... Not that I've played very many Pac-Men, but Sonic probably handles it pretty well. Pac just doesn't seem very safe.

The Yoshi boards believes that Sheik is Yoshi's worst MU, not Sanic.

It's probably 55/45 or something like that in Sonic's favor.

If it's in Sonic's favor, I'd have to agree that it's only barely so. Yoshi is so much safer in this game and his KO set-ups/power are so much better than Sonic's.

 

[Lukingordex]

Still seems like an over exaggeration.

Like, pretty sure Sheik would still handle Ness better. Sonic has certain advantages but it's not like Ness is free.

It's not "free" but it's pretty hard for Ness.

Ness' neutral game is garbage (a weakness that many people doesn't explore), he just doesn't have range to punish Sonic lol.
Sheik is also not easy but at least we can hit her with some Nairs and she dies pretty early if she whiffs.

 

[BSP]

Rosaluma seems like a pretty hard counter to Pac... Not that I've played very many Pac-Men, but Sonic probably handles it pretty well. Pac just doesn't seem very safe.

Rosalina isn't half as bad as Sonic. Pac-Man has answers to GP spam and he forces the duo to approach.

He has no way to contain Sonic's speed though. Pac-Man's usual containment tools are punishable by Sonic, and Pac-Man's neutral game in the MU comes down to hard reads to even land a hit on the guy. Sonic's speed + Pac-Man's grab + his ability to punish trampoline = shield being even more effective than usual vs. Pac-Man. It's so frustrating.

Oh, and he can outrun all of the bonus fruits. It's so bad man.

Regarding safety, Pac-Man's actually pretty safe vs. most characters. His up B is un-punishable for most of the cast, but Sonic's got HA and spin dash to mess him up for every miss unless Pac-Man grabs a ledge (and then he's on the ledge...)

 

[Camalange]

It's not "free" but it's pretty hard for Ness.

Ness' neutral game is garbage (a weakness that many people doesn't explore), he just doesn't have range to punish Sonic lol.
Sheik is also not easy but at least we can hit her with some Nairs and she dies pretty early if she whiffs.

Why do you need range to punish Sonic? Sure it helps as Sonic has a hard time with characters who wall him out, but it's not like Sonic is is putting up walls either (because he can't).

Sonic has to be in your face to do anything. Ness' aerial priority with Nairs and Fairs are really strong too. If you want to talk about range, look at Fair... Nair can stop and interrupt so much.

Also Ness' Bthrow has always been and will continue to be far more broken than Sonic's lol.

Rosalina isn't half as bad as Sonic. Pac-Man has answers to GP spam and he forces the duo to approach.

He has no way to contain Sonic's speed though. Pac-Man's usual containment tools are punishable by Sonic, and Pac-Man's neutral game in the MU comes down to hard reads to even land a hit on the guy. Sonic's speed + Pac-Man's grab + his ability to punish trampoline = shield being even more effective than usual vs. Pac-Man. It's so frustrating.

Oh, and he can outrun all of the bonus fruits. It's so bad man.

Regarding safety, Pac-Man's actually pretty safe vs. most characters. His up B is un-punishable for most of the cast, but Sonic's got HA and spin dash to mess him up for every miss unless Pac-Man grabs a ledge (and then he's on the ledge...)

Have you noticed that the keyword keeps coming down to punish?

Try changing your game. You can't play this match-up like every other match-up.

Sonic will punish you if you make bad decisions. Get used to that.

HA is pretty bad and is only used to stall/punish. So if you're getting hit by it often, you're doing something wrong. If you spotdodge in time, Sonic is completely vulnerable from a whiffed HA. Sonic can't Spring > Uair chase against Pac-Man because of Hydrant, so keep that in mind.

Regardless of if it's a hard match-up or not, I think so many people just try to play Sonic like they do every other character so they get mad that they just can't press all of the buttons at any given point because Sonic can punish you for it. No one is willing to adapt their playstyle in that sense.

I know people have a really hard time getting this through their brains, but when Sonic's not the one doing the punishing, he's really unsafe.

Again, at this point I'm not even arguing match-ups or not. It's just really stupid when character boards come in here saying things like "Spin Dash and HA punish everything" and it's like okay maybe you're just bad? Sorry I can't help you there.

 

[BSP]

Have you noticed that the keyword keeps coming down to punish?

Try changing your game. You can't play this match-up like every other match-up.

Sonic will punish you if you make bad decisions. Get used to that.

Using this match as reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAEQ1BmnGa0 ; it's online, but still...

Attempting to punish is all I can do. Bman doesn't give me any breathing room. I can't change my game if he never gives me a chance to.

When I do try to mount an offense / throw out more hitboxes, here's the problem: All of my strikes lose to shield, and I have, for all intents and purposes, a non-functional grab in neutral. My only consistent answer to shield is trampoline, which Sonic is uniquely capable of punishing 95% of the time. The other 5% is when I grab a ledge.

When I do clank with Sonic, his jab beats mine if we're right on top of each other. Any farther apart, I've been consistently beat out by his forward tilt. If I shield, I'm not offering any pressure and I can't shieldgrab. If he shields, whatever I go for gets shield grabbed, and he knows I can't do the same. Case in Point: clanking more often than not ends in his favor, or a reset to neutral, which is bad for me.

I get punished when I make any decision in this MU. What decision is good for Pac-Man?

HA is pretty bad and is only used to stall/punish. So if you're getting hit by it often, you're doing something wrong. If you spotdodge in time, Sonic is completely vulnerable from a whiffed HA. Sonic can't Spring > Uair chase against Pac-Man because of Hydrant, so keep that in mind.

Bman uses at a mixup, not in neutral or anything. @1:48 is a perfect example. I attempt to punish the spin dash jump when he starts a HA immediately, and I get hit. If I try to respond to a HA at that level, I miss/get hit if he does anything else. If I do manage to get a trampoline on the ground so he's forced to approach from the air, he can use it as a stall, like you said. I can beat it with Utilt/Uair/Usmash if I'm gutsy, but he can switch between the quick HA or the full one and hit me if I try to anticipate the other.

I am capable of punishing whatever he does, but I have to guess at it before he does so. That's quite difficult when there are so many things he can do out of the SDR. If I fail, he gets off free and we're back at square zero, or worse if I jumped to try to punish something.

Sonic can still chase me with Spring -> Uair. It clanks with the hydrant, so he's safe. He can also Bair hydrant if he sees it coming, which launches it immediately. In the air in general, well spaced Sonic Bair > anything Pac-Man has in the air. The best Pac-Man can do is try to trade with his own Bair, which is in Sonic's favor.

Regardless of if it's a hard match-up or not, I think so many people just try to play Sonic like they do every other character so they get mad that they just can't press all of the buttons at any given point because Sonic can punish you for it. No one is willing to adapt their playstyle in that sense.

What do you suggest I do? Never hit anything? The smart way to play against Pac-Man as Sonic is to rush him constantly (unless you've stolen his fruit, that's a different story...even then, I would still recommend rushing him down), and if he's doing that, I don't have a chance to change anything.

The only option I can see for Pac-Man to not get demolished is to use Trampoline by the ledge and run away constantly. He can't compete with Sonic consistently in neutral.

I know people have a really hard time getting this through their brains, but when Sonic's not the one doing the punishing, he's really unsafe.

Again, at this point I'm not even arguing match-ups or not. It's just really stupid when character boards come in here saying things like "Spin Dash and HA punish everything" and it's like okay maybe you're just bad? Sorry I can't help you there.

When is Sonic not doing the punishing? With the way Bman plays, I'm constantly on the defensive whether I like it or not. I have to press buttons eventually, or I'll never win. When I press buttons and miss, I'm most likely getting hit. Neutral comes down to straight up guessing on my part.

I understand this might be Pac-Man specific, but how am I supposed to go offensive in this MU? Assuming Sonic doesn't abuse Pac-Man's weaknesses and rush him down, my only consistent answer to him shielding ends in 1 of 2 scenarios: I'm on the ledge, or I've eaten 20% and I'm in the air.

Watch my matches against Bman1K and see what happens in neutral. Spin Dash, though good, isn't the biggest problem, and HA is far from it: Sonic's run speed is the issue, as I have no consistent answer to it. This may be Pac-Man specific, but the combination of his running speed, shield, and grab alone make neutral a nightmare. Most other character boards at least have a decent grab, but Pac-Man doesn't have that luxury.

The only way I see it being better for Pac-Man is if he camps the ledge with trampolines constantly. I don't know how it'd work in practice, but that may be what it comes down to.

 

[Camalange]

To be perfectly honest, I watched the video, but I'm not going to respond to every aspect of that wall of text. Maybe someone else with more Pac practice can help you.

From what I gathered, it seems like you actually did smart things in this match-up. Fruit was beating spins, trampoline was interrupting, etc. You punished HA effectively multiple times... Have you considered just not being overly aggressive? Normally I would just tell you to not be bad, but you did things that most people wouldn't know to do against Sonic, so I'll give you more than that.

From where I'm at, I think you just barely got outplayed. He took momentum and ran with it, especially once you were offstage, Sonic edeguards Pac pretty effectively.

It's weird because Sonic's neutral game really isn't that good, but neither is Pac's so I think you're better off just camping him out. Sonic can close in easily but if you play more into your game of only using fruit to wall out and stop approaches, you'd be better off. Dash attack is fast and so is your nair, which helped. I think you sort of know what you need to do... You can't get greedy in this match-up, and yeah, having to be defensive a lot isn't fun, but to be perfectly honest, from what I've seen from Pac, I think that's just how he has to play a lot of match-ups.

Also, nothing comes down to straight up guessing... There are optimal choices, player patterns, etc. that all factor into what decisions need to be made.

And remember, most of my ranting was coming from character boards like Ness and Yoshi who are claiming Sonic to be their worst match-up when they themselves are easily in the same tier as, if not higher than Sonic.

I honestly have no clue if Sonic has a large enough advantage on either of those characters, but they both have strong tools to cope with Sonic. I have a very hard time believing that Sonic is really their worst match-up and am more ready to believe that Sonic just happens to be good and annoys them a lot so their anger of "agh too fast" gets the better of them.

I can definitely believe Sonic beating Pac though, but again, don't really know enough to say it's as bad as you think it is. Especially after watching your video example, I think you lost for reasons that weren't the match-up alone.

 

[kj22]

Using this match as reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAEQ1BmnGa0 ; it's online, but still...

Attempting to punish is all I can do. Bman doesn't give me any breathing room. I can't change my game if he never gives me a chance to.

When I do try to mount an offense / throw out more hitboxes, here's the problem: All of my strikes lose to shield, and I have, for all intents and purposes, a non-functional grab in neutral. My only consistent answer to shield is trampoline, which Sonic is uniquely capable of punishing 95% of the time. The other 5% is when I grab a ledge.

When I do clank with Sonic, his jab beats mine if we're right on top of each other. Any farther apart, I've been consistently beat out by his forward tilt. If I shield, I'm not offering any pressure and I can't shieldgrab. If he shields, whatever I go for gets shield grabbed, and he knows I can't do the same. Case in Point: clanking more often than not ends in his favor, or a reset to neutral, which is bad for me.

I get punished when I make any decision in this MU. What decision is good for Pac-Man?



Bman uses at a mixup, not in neutral or anything. @1:48 is a perfect example. I attempt to punish the spin dash jump when he starts a HA immediately, and I get hit. If I try to respond to a HA at that level, I miss/get hit if he does anything else. If I do manage to get a trampoline on the ground so he's forced to approach from the air, he can use it as a stall, like you said. I can beat it with Utilt/Uair/Usmash if I'm gutsy, but he can switch between the quick HA or the full one and hit me if I try to anticipate the other.

I am capable of punishing whatever he does, but I have to guess at it before he does so. That's quite difficult when there are so many things he can do out of the SDR. If I fail, he gets off free and we're back at square zero, or worse if I jumped to try to punish something.

Sonic can still chase me with Spring -> Uair. It clanks with the hydrant, so he's safe. He can also Bair hydrant if he sees it coming, which launches it immediately. In the air in general, well spaced Sonic Bair > anything Pac-Man has in the air. The best Pac-Man can do is try to trade with his own Bair, which is in Sonic's favor.



What do you suggest I do? Never hit anything? The smart way to play against Pac-Man as Sonic is to rush him constantly (unless you've stolen his fruit, that's a different story...even then, I would still recommend rushing him down), and if he's doing that, I don't have a chance to change anything.

The only option I can see for Pac-Man to not get demolished is to use Trampoline by the ledge and run away constantly. He can't compete with Sonic consistently in neutral.



When is Sonic not doing the punishing? With the way Bman plays, I'm constantly on the defensive whether I like it or not. I have to press buttons eventually, or I'll never win. When I press buttons and miss, I'm most likely getting hit. Neutral comes down to straight up guessing on my part.

I understand this might be Pac-Man specific, but how am I supposed to go offensive in this MU? Assuming Sonic doesn't abuse Pac-Man's weaknesses and rush him down, my only consistent answer to him shielding ends in 1 of 2 scenarios: I'm on the ledge, or I've eaten 20% and I'm in the air.

Watch my matches against Bman1K and see what happens in neutral. Spin Dash, though good, isn't the biggest problem, and HA is far from it: Sonic's run speed is the issue, as I have no consistent answer to it. This may be Pac-Man specific, but the combination of his running speed, shield, and grab alone make neutral a nightmare. Most other character boards at least have a decent grab, but Pac-Man doesn't have that luxury.

The only way I see it being better for Pac-Man is if he camps the ledge with trampolines constantly. I don't know how it'd work in practice, but that may be what it comes down to.

Try walking more and less jumping/dashing.
Don't throw out unsafe moves in neutral.
Learn to read his approach

 

[Camalange]

Try walking more and less jumping/dashing.
Don't throw out unsafe moves in neutral.
Learn to read his approach

guys i'm getting punished because i'm doing unsafe things

it's hopeless

 

[BSP]

Try walking more and less jumping/dashing.
Don't throw out unsafe moves in neutral.
Learn to read his approach

Ok @ the walking.

I don't have any safe moves in neutral except maybe jab, which has poor range. I'd like to think I have pretty decent reaction time, but I can't react perfectly to Sonic closing in on me from mid range or closer every time. I'm a sitting duck if I just sit there.

Learn to read his approach...this is the character who has near zero commitment to spin dash with shield cancels, jumping, etc., a small amount with spin charge, and is fast enough to play mindgames by running around you (also low commitment because shielding).

I can try to read his approach, but in order to make actual progress off of my read as Pac-Man, I have to do something preemptively or else Sonic can run away, shield, throw something out, etc. If my read is wrong, which isn't unlikely given how many options Sonic has at any given situation, I look like I'm throwing out unsafe moves in neutral. If I constantly wait, I'm never going to hit the guy.

For example, if Sonic runs up to me (but not on top of me) and shields, my only consistent answer that damages him is to
run/walk up and trampoline him before he stops running. My strikes lose to the shield, and I'm screwed if I go for the grab and he doesn't sit there like an idiot. If I take too long to get to him for the trampoline, he'll roll, run away, or grab/hit me first. If he forward rolls, Trampoline will pull him out of it. However, I'll have to use it early to pull him out of a forward roll...and if I use it early, I miss if he doesn't roll, sidestep, rolls away from me...you see where I'm going with this? I've got to read everything essentially to even hit him. Missed trampoline gets punished heavily unless I put myself on the ledge.

If he plans to run past me, my answer is to throw out something before hand. If I'm wrong if he does nearly anything else, and I get punished on top of looking like I'm throwing out unsafe moves in neutral.

If he charges a spin dash outside of my immediate range, I can't really do anything safely because he hasn't committed. The start of the hop is invincible, so my next best bet is to punish / clank with the roll. This is still bad.

To punish the roll, I have to throw out a smash to beat the spin outright or go aerial.

Going in the air is bad because Sonic can pressure my landings easily, and all of my SH aerials besides Fair have sizable windows for punishment. If I do FH stuff, I'm putting myself in the air. You even recommended less jumping, so I'm sure you know how bad of an idea this is.

Obviously, smashes are very unsafe and lose to a lot of options. Why am I even considering them? Because clanking is still bad for me.

Clanking is easier for sure, and I can pull it off with jab (maybe...), ftilt, and dtilt, but Sonic handily wins CQC as I mentioned. If we're right next to each other (but not on top, which we won't be if we clanked), his jab is faster than mine. Any farther away, his Ftilt beats my options. If I shield, I open myself to get grabbed. If I foolishly throw something out anyway and he shields, I get grabbed. If I roll away, he's gotten away for free. If he runs / rolls away, he's gotten away for free. I've accomplished nothing.

Lets not forget I have to time the clank properly, and Sonic can mix it up by jumping before he comes within clank range and quick HA whatever I throw out with the intention of clanking. How do I stop this? Read it before hand...lol.

Fruits minus Key clank, opening them up to be stolen. If I've got a key ready, Sonic should be smart and run at me instead of spinning a lot.

Sorry for the walls of text, but I've played this MU extensively and have tried everything I can think of, except 100% camping the ledge with trampoline. The only way I hit Sonic for things is to throw moves out before hand, and if I'm wrong, I get hit / look like I'm playing bad neutral.

Then again, maybe Wifi is that bad and it's much easier offline. I'll let you guys know once I find out.

 

[Camalange]

Still sounds a lot like johns to me.

If you're overcommitting, then that's a problem. You act like just because Sonic has multiple options that he's this unstoppable force. For every spin there's a sound, visual cue, and set rule to each outcome that can be reacted to, punished, etc. You just need to learn what they are and how to appropriately deal with them.

In almost any and all situations, if we just shield cancel the Spin Dash, we're still in neutral, so you're safe… It's just baiting a reaction.

If we release the spin, you can pretty much just hold shield and see what happens and react. If you're trying press buttons while we're charging spins, you should realize we're literally just watching you to see what you do and then release.

Annoying? Yes. Is that the character? Yes. Broken? No. Learn it.

Also, lol Wifi.

 

[BSP]

Still sounds a lot like johns to me.

If you're overcommitting, then that's a problem.

When throwing out anything is an over-commitment, it sounds like a bad MU to me.

You act like just because Sonic has multiple options that he's this unstoppable force. For every spin there's a sound, visual cue, and set rule to each outcome that can be reacted to, punished, etc. You just need to learn what they are and how to appropriately deal with them.

Sonic's not unstoppable, but vs. Pac-Man the game is in his favor for sure. Pac-Man can't consistently handle all of his options. I'm trying to explain why Sonic is Pac-Man's worst MU, not ranting about spin dash/charge and his running in general. I'm sure other characters have consistent answers to his shenanigans, but Pac-Man doesn't.

I understand the spins well enough to say in a nutshell, as long as Sonic doesn't start them in the air, he can do pretty much anything out of them except return to standing or use grounded moves. If he hits my shield, he has a bunch of options all requiring different reads for me to punish as Pac-Man. I can't read every single move, sorry.

The same is true for his running game. I can't punish him or mount anything without a hard read or a mistake from him. When that's what it takes just to get out of neutral, I'm thinking it's a bad MU.

In almost any and all situations, if we just shield cancel the Spin Dash, we're still in neutral, so you're safe… It's just baiting a reaction.

OK, but that's no progress for me either.

If we release the spin, you can pretty much just hold shield and see what happens and react. If you're trying press buttons while we're charging spins, you should realize we're literally just watching you to see what you do and then release.

Holding shield saves me from getting hit by spin dash directly, but it doesn't mean I'll make any progress on hitting Sonic by a long shot.

Pressing buttons while he's charging is generally a bad idea, yes. Like I said though, Pac-Man's punishes for the move and Sonic's running game come down to hard reads. I have to try to get something.

Annoying? Yes. Is that the character? Yes. Broken? No. Learn it.

Also, lol Wifi.

I know Sonic's spins decently well, but I don't think the answers to him as Pac-Man are as simple as you guys seem to be suggesting. Pac-Man can't contain his running game, nor does he have a reliable answer to it or spin dash / charge.

Wifi does suck though, I'll give you that. Abadango has said he felt Sonic was feeling impossible at one point. I don't know if he's changed his mind, but the matchup being awful for Pac-Man isn't that far-fetched.

 

[Camalange]

I don't really have anything else to say, or any magic answers to give so… I guess you could either try to get better, counterpick, or give up.

You seem pretty set that it's a bad match-up, and honestly, it probably is, so I've only tried to offer suggestions.

I'm not interested in wall of texts anymore on why you're losing to Sonic as Pac-Man because this is 1. not a match-up thread 2. a Sonic centric Q&A thread, and so far there haven't been any questions asked about Sonic, just me being told Pac is bad and 3. I personally have little experience against Pac, and the only experience I have is myself practicing him here and there, and personally finding him to be not all that great of a character all around, so I'm not your best audience.

Maybe someone else here can you help you, but probably not, if it's as bad as you believe. Sorry.

If you have further questions about Sonic, I'm happy to answer, but you seem to have it all covered. I'm not trying to be rude, and I really wish I could help, but I genuinely don't have more to say about the matter and would rather stay on topic than continue.

 

[Lawz.]

When throwing out anything is an over-commitment, it sounds like a bad MU to me.

You started the match with a bad fruit throw and a ridiculously telegraphed grab attempt afterwards. You are also (for whatever reason) approaching the Sonic almost the entire time. When the Sonic hits you in the air, half the time he's sitting on the ground waiting for you because he realizes that you keep falling TOWARDS him and trying to land these insanely unsafe/telegraphed aerials, and you fall right into a blatant shield grab punish.

The reason why "everything" seems to be an over-commitment, is because you ARE over committing. This doesn't mean Pacman has zero options, it means YOU are over-committing. Multiple times you would either charge or throw a fruit while standing right next to the sonic, you also did these insanely unsafe and aggressive fair approaches where you whiff like 2 or 3 fairs and would get punished. It got to a point where the Sonic was so confident, that he was waiting for you to approach and would simply react to whatever unsafe thing you did next. There were times he would let off the pressure, run away and charge spindash because you were just pressing the A button every which way you could.

If anyone was zoning in that video, it was the Sonic. And that just doesn't seem right.

Sonics not unstoppable, but vs. Pac-Man the game is in his favor for sure. Pac-Man can't consistently handle all of his options. I'm trying to explain why Sonic is Pac-Man's worst MU, not ranting about spin dash/charge and his running in general. I'm sure other characters have consistent answers to his shenanigans, but Pac-Man doesn't.

There's a Pac player in my area, and I watched him play this matchup. Pacman is a zoner, therefore the entire idea of Pacman is creating walls or situations that stuff approaches (fruits, hydrant, etc). When he saw the Sonic approaching with spindash, he would either throw a fruit, drop a hydrant, or time the trampoline so Sonic would bounce.

When he shielded spindash, he would upb OoS (for example) or simply run away to start creating another wall situation.

I understand the spins well enough to say in a nutshell, as long as Sonic doesn't start them in the air, he can do pretty much anything out of them except return to standing or use grounded moves. If he hits my shield, he has a bunch of options all requiring different reads for me to punish as Pac-Man. I can't read every single move, sorry.

You don't have to shield spindash and constantly have to read every option the Sonic has, sometimes just getting away unscathed is the better option, especially for a character like Pacman who thrives off of zoning.

Holding shield saves me from getting hit by spin dash directly, but it doesn't mean I'll make any progress on hitting Sonic by a long shot.

Pressing buttons while he's charging is generally a bad idea, yes. Like I said though, Pac-Man's punishes for the move and Sonic's running game come down to hard reads. I have to try to get something.

Isn't the idea of holding shield....to save you from getting hit? It's not supposed to give you this magical plethora of frame advantage all the time, it's supposed to keep you from taking damage. Shield spindash, take the least amount of damage possible and set up hydrant and fruit so the Sonic will have to mix up his approach.

In that video you were just way too aggressive, constantly running at him and throwing out random aerials hoping one of them would land. Sit back, have the Sonic approach (even if he has the life lead) and use Pacman's tools. Pacman isn't a rushdown character, yet you're playing him like he's supposed to be the aggressor or the one approaching and that seems to be the issue here.

The matchup may be in Sonic's favor (That's up for you guys to discuss), but Pacman certainly has options. You're just not using those options...

 

[Camalange]

You started the match with a bad fruit throw and a ridiculously telegraphed grab attempt afterwards. You are also (for whatever reason) approaching the Sonic almost the entire time. When the Sonic hits you in the air, half the time he's sitting on the ground waiting for you because he realizes that you keep falling TOWARDS him and trying to land these insanely unsafe/telegraphed aerials, and you fall right into a blatant shield grab punish.

The reason why "everything" seems to be an over-commitment, is because you ARE over committing. This doesn't mean Pacman has zero options, it means YOU are over-committing. Multiple times you would either charge or throw a fruit while standing right next to the sonic, you also did these insanely unsafe and aggressive fair approaches where you whiff like 2 or 3 fairs and would get punished. It got to a point where the Sonic was so confident, that he was waiting for you to approach and would simply react to whatever unsafe thing you did next. There were times he would let off the pressure, run away and charge spindash because you were just pressing the A button every which way you could.

If anyone was zoning in that video, it was the Sonic. And that just doesn't seem right.



There's a Pac player in my area, and I watched him play this matchup. Pacman is a zoner, therefore the entire idea of Pacman is creating walls or situations that stuff approaches (fruits, hydrant, etc). When he saw the Sonic approaching with spindash, he would either throw a fruit, drop a hydrant, or time the trampoline so Sonic would bounce.

When he shielded spindash, he would upb OoS (for example) or simply run away to start creating another wall situation.



You don't have to shield spindash and constantly have to read every option the Sonic has, sometimes just getting away unscathed is the better option, especially for a character like Pacman who thrives off of zoning.



Isn't the idea of holding shield....to save you from getting hit? It's not supposed to give you this magical plethora of frame advantage all the time, it's supposed to keep you from taking damage. Shield spindash, take the least amount of damage possible and set up hydrant and fruit so the Sonic will have to mix up his approach.

In that video you were just way too aggressive, constantly running at him and throwing out random aerials hoping one of them would land. Sit back, have the Sonic approach (even if he has the life lead) and use Pacman's tools. Pacman isn't a rushdown character, yet you're playing him like he's supposed to be the aggressor or the one approaching and that seems to be the issue here.

The matchup may be in Sonic's favor (That's up for you guys to discuss), but Pacman certainly has options. You're just not using those options...

Thank you, sir.

My patience was getting thin earlier, but this was quite insightful.

Basically, all this. Regardless of whether or not Sonic wins the match-up or not, I think your mindset was all wrong. When I critiqued your video, I gave you some positive feedback as to what you did that worked and tried mentioning what you could do to continue that.

Lawz basically hit it on the head for you though. You keep saying that Pac loses in neutral and you can't be aggressive so then why are you trying to play that way? You're making yourself fall into unsafe situations a lot of the time. So much so, that when your defense is on point, you squander it.

That's like dash attacking into a shielding Sonic with his back to the ledge past 120% damage and complaining that you die to Sonic's back throw. You deserve to die in that situation.

For example, I can tell you right now that if you're Pac, standing behind a hydrant, and charging a fruit, that he already limits Sonic's options. Plain and simple. That's already an answer unique to your character that you can learn to abuse and perfect that not every other character has access to.

If you want actual critique, then this is probably some of the best you'll get.

 

[BSP]

You started the match with a bad fruit throw and a ridiculously telegraphed grab attempt afterwards. You are also (for whatever reason) approaching the Sonic almost the entire time. When the Sonic hits you in the air, half the time he's sitting on the ground waiting for you because he realizes that you keep falling TOWARDS him and trying to land these insanely unsafe/telegraphed aerials, and you fall right into a blatant shield grab punish.

This wasn't the first match in the set. I was trying different things because nothing was turning up decent results. He usually ran right up to me and did something at the start of the match, so I thought the cherry had a chance at hitting. When it didn't, I thought he would try to take it, hence the grab (yeah, bad, should've up B instead).

I'm approaching because Pac-Man's zone tools don't work very well against Sonic. He can run through grounded hydrants and proceed to pressure me. He can launch them quickly with Bair, a Smash, or Spin dash roll -> jump. If you set it too close to him, he can run up and Fair Pac-Man before he can move. Hydrant isn't safe in neutral.

If I place a trampoline on the stage and don't grab a ledge, he can chase me down and punish, or at least put me in a bad situation. If I go to the ledge, I've given up all stage control.

I fell towards him because running away didn't work. He's going to catch up to me every time. When I focused on retreating, he would chase me down and space Bair well enough so that I couldn't challenge it, and it would launch my hydrant if I dropped one. If I airdodge, I'm airdodging into the ground. Otherwise, he would shield and grab my landing anyway, so I stopped bothering.

The reason why "everything" seems to be an over-commitment, is because you ARE over committing. This doesn't mean Pacman has zero options, it means YOU are over-committing. Multiple times you would either charge or throw a fruit while standing right next to the sonic, you also did these insanely unsafe and aggressive fair approaches where you whiff like 2 or 3 fairs and would get punished. It got to a point where the Sonic was so confident, that he was waiting for you to approach and would simply react to whatever unsafe thing you did next. There were times he would let off the pressure, run away and charge spindash because you were just pressing the A button every which way you could.

I can't set up my zoning options safely. Placing a hydrant isn't safe, nor is trampoline unless Pac-Man grabs a ledge (giving up all stage control). Like I said, I was trying something different because I had experienced what happened when I did try to set up a zone.

I'll agree, charging fruit while standing next to him is dumb. My bad.

I was trying to challenge his moves because I usually can't pull off punishes otherwise. Refer to my points above about containing Sonic's run game.

If anyone was zoning in that video, it was the Sonic. And that just doesn't seem right.

Seemed like rushdown to me, but ok.

There's a Pac player in my area, and I watched him play this matchup. Pacman is a zoner, therefore the entire idea of Pacman is creating walls or situations that stuff approaches (fruits, hydrant, etc).

All of which Sonic can easily bypass.

When he saw the Sonic approaching with spindash, he would either throw a fruit,

Which will clank unless it's key, or possibly get stolen if Sonic has his double jump, jumps out of the spin, and goes to take it. Plus there goes whatever charge progress you had. If not getting hit by spin dash is all I wanted, I'd shield it.

drop a hydrant,

Which isn't safe from Sonic running -> fair or spin dashing at it and launching it before Pac-Man can move. As I said, Sonic can run through grounded hydrants, so they don't contain his running in any way.

or time the trampoline so Sonic would bounce.

To which Sonic can also react to and start another spin dash to punish Pac-Man's landing lag, unless he grabs a ledge.

When he shielded spindash, he would upb OoS (for example) or simply run away to start creating another wall situation.

I've been told up B OoS will hit Sonic out of the spin dash, but I've had mixed results. As for the walls, Sonic can be back on Pac-Man in about a second, but I see what you're saying. I don't see what progress Pac-Man makes out of this though. He can get a key...then what? Sonic can outrun keys, and then you're still dealing with his entire game.

You don't have to shield spindash and constantly have to read every option the Sonic has, sometimes just getting away unscathed is the better option, especially for a character like Pacman who thrives off of zoning.

I know, but if I'm not hitting him, I'm not making progress.

Sonic can break the walls pretty easily.

Isn't the idea of holding shield....to save you from getting hit? It's not supposed to give you this magical plethora of frame advantage all the time, it's supposed to keep you from taking damage. Shield spindash, take the least amount of damage possible and set up hydrant and fruit so the Sonic will have to mix up his approach.

OK, I'm overrating shield. You're right.

Setting up hydrant changes nothing. Sonic can run through them. And it removes it as a landing mixup...not that it helps that much to begin with.

When I threw fruit while Sonic was away, it was a bad throw. That's exactly what I'd be doing by setting it up, wouldn't it? Did I mention he can outrun all of them?

In that video you were just way too aggressive, constantly running at him and throwing out random aerials hoping one of them would land. Sit back, have the Sonic approach (even if he has the life lead) and use Pacman's tools. Pacman isn't a rushdown character, yet you're playing him like he's supposed to be the aggressor or the one approaching and that seems to be the issue here.

I admit, I haven't tried a 100% ledge camp trampoline strategy. I will try that next time. At that point in the sets, I was trying different things, like I said. Nothing was really working.

What if Sonic doesn't approach with the lead though? Key is scary, but not that scary, especially when you can outrun it.

The matchup may be in Sonic's favor (That's up for you guys to discuss), but Pacman certainly has options. You're just not using those options...

Because I've tried and they are easily broken through or punished.

For example, I can tell you right now that if you're Pac, standing behind a hydrant, and charging a fruit, that he already limits Sonic's options. Plain and simple. That's already an answer unique to your character that you can learn to abuse and perfect that not every other character has access to.

Dead wrong because Sonic can run right through it like it's not there. If anything, I've given up one of my only landing mixups.

 

[New Age Retro Hippie]

Why would you not trust people who have been playing Sonic in-depth for potentially years instead of what sounds like frustration with the matchup? We're telling you our weaknesses and even your own options but the only thing you're really giving us is why our character is bull****, which we would already know if true since, y'know... we play him. I'm going to have to agree w/ these two that it's just your mindset man. You've already given up.

 

[Lawz.]

Everything I mentioned worked for the Pac I watched, and he played a much better Sonic player than the one showcased in the video. The difference is, he knows when to use his moves and when not to, he's not "trying things because they didn't work", he adapted and timed his hydrants and fruits so Sonic would CLANK and not run through them.

But I guess whining is easier than practicing the matchup or adapting to what your opponent does. Whining seemed to work when the balance patch came around, maybe they'll nerf Sonic again so you can win the matchup?

 

[BSP]

Everything I mentioned worked for the Pac I watched, and he played a much better Sonic player than the one showcased in the video. The difference is, he knows when to use his moves and when not to, he's not "trying things because they didn't work", he adapted and timed his hydrants and fruits so Sonic would CLANK and not run through them.

Bold claim, and I'm skeptical to believe that until I see. I doubt the skill of the Sonic too because it's not hard to realize how to get around Pac-Man's stuff with him, or to psyche him out with running. @Brawlman1000 is a pretty good Sonic player. Doesn't travel much, but did take a set from Denti at a tournament a while back.

You told me things that I should do, and I'm telling you why they don't work. I've tried what you said, except a fully devoted running away style. I'll try that next, like I said.

You seem to be missing my point about clanking: it doesn't get Pac-Man any farther. What does it accomplish? It resets to neutral at best, which I'm trying to tell you guys is bad for Pac-Man. If Pac-Man sticks to the fruit, what is he going to do when Sonic adapts and takes it?

You must not be understanding what I'm saying about running through hydrants either. You just told me to set up Hydrant so that Sonic has to mix up his approach. Not only is setting up the hydrant punishable by Sonic in general, he can run and spin through it so it accomplishes nothing. It may as well not be there, and it's arguably more of a liability because Pac-Man loses a mixup.

If you're referring to the aerial hydrant, Sonic's Uair will clank and keep him safe, and waiting to avoid the clank or throwing the hydrant early defeats the purpose of using it as cover. His Bair will outright launch it, and if Sonic is spacing right, waiting to avoid that gets me hit or framed trap -> airdodge into the ground.

But I guess whining is easier than practicing the matchup or adapting to what your opponent does. Whining seemed to work when the balance patch came around, maybe they'll nerf Sonic again so you can win the matchup?

I not whining. I am trying to explain why I think Sonic is Pac-Man's worst MU. I could care less about Sonic as a character overall, but I think he counters my main for reasons I said. Please point me to where I've complained about Sonic as opposed to explaining the facts of the matter and why I think Pac-Man loses because of them.

Don't be snide with me about adapting to MUs. I'm not one to give up easily. You know what I did when I saw Abadango lose how he did to Dabuz? I experimented against Rosalina's moves and found answers. I'm the one who figured out how Pac-Man can counter Rosalina's gravitational pull spam by healing himself, giving himself the advantage in neutral. I also figured out that his Dair will send Luma into tumble regardless of % and is very efficient for comboing Luma off of the stage into death. Rosalina has gone from one of Pac-Man's hardest MUs to one that is quite manageable.

Thanks for attacking my adaptation efforts in general though. I respond to what you said with options I know Sonic has from experience and personal attacks are what I get in response. Thanks.

Why would you not trust people who have been playing Sonic in-depth for potentially years instead of what sounds like frustration with the matchup? We're telling you our weaknesses and even your own options but the only thing you're really giving us is why our character is bull****, which we would already know if true since, y'know... we play him. I'm going to have to agree w/ these two that it's just your mindset man. You've already given up.

Because the game hasn't even been out for a year? One of them apparently didn't know Sonic can run through fire hydrants (although he did admit he didn't have much Pac-Man EXP), why should I assume they know more about the MU than me? If you're referring to Brawl, I mained Sonic in Brawl for ~3 years, which is why I don't think these guys are giving enough credit to Sonic's mixup potential. As far as I know, neither or them use Pac-Man either, so they don't understand how much of a problem he has dealing with the guy. They don't seem to understand how the fastest character in the game could have large advantage vs a guy with 2/4 of his special moves based on zoning and the second (I say first) worst grab in the game.

If I sound frustrated, I'm not. I'm trying to explain my points based on my experiences, which point to a bad MU for Pac-Man no matter how you turn it. Being forced to run away for the entire match sounds bad to me.

But bad MUs are ok. This is a fighting game. There are going to be bad MUs. I'm not so emotionally attached to this character that I will whine about his bad MU. I will argue what I think his bad MUs are and why though.

I haven't said Sonic is bull****. He's not even the best character. He's good, but not broken or anything. I'm just trying to explain his options vs. Pac-Man, which I don't think you guys are giving enough credit.

Let me not derail this thread further though.

 

[Lawz.]

Let me not derail this thread further though.

Smart move. This is a Q&A not a "this matchup is hopeless" thread.

Better use that tech and beat Dabuz.

 

[Camalange]

They don't seem to understand how the fastest character in the game could have large advantage vs a guy with 2/4 of his special moves based on zoning

Yeah, you're right. I don't seem to understand that.

Not like Mega Man's entire moveset is basically projectiles which makes him a zoner, and Mega Man goes even with, dare I say, even potentially beats Sonic.

But nah, Sonic too fast.

Regardless, we'll be here talking in circles forever so I'd rather just run circles with Sonic.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

So uh, ignoring all of that bit of mess up there, I've got a really basic question. How do you cancel the landing lag from Dair, unless it was answered earlier in the thread and I just glossed over it.

And general consensus on the R.O.B. matchup? Admittledly the few ones I play I use Lucario(since he's my main and his neutral is a bit better than Sonic's) but that damn spinning top gives me a headache.

 

[Camalange]

So uh, ignoring all of that bit of mess up there, I've got a really basic question. How do you cancel the landing lag from Dair, unless it was answered earlier in the thread and I just glossed over it.

Q: Can Sonic L-Cancel his Down Air (Dair)?
A: No. Sonic used to be able to autocancel his Dair (Down Air) from the max height of his Spring, but this is no longer the case. However, if you're at the approximate distance of a jump plus the max height of a spring and then dair, it will autocancel. There's no way to shorten the lag. It just has an increased autocancel distance.

And general consensus on the R.O.B. matchup? Admittledly the few ones I play I use Lucario(since he's my main and his neutral is a bit better than Sonic's) but that damn spinning top gives me a headache.

I'm still not sure who this match-up favors as I would need to play it more, but I think regardless of whose favor it is in, it's pretty negligible.

There are things Sonic has against ROB that he can abuse the hell out of, but the same can be said about ROB against Sonic.

If you let Sonic get in and have his way with you, you're going to get utterly mopped. Sonic's can combo ROB very easily due to his giant hurtbox and difficulty protecting himself from below. Uair strings are incredibly effective, and comboing into Uthrow>Spring>Uair or just Uair follow-ups/KOs in general are quite easy. When Sonic gets his momentum, it's some of the most fun I have playing this game.

On the flip side, however, when ROB zones the way he's supposed to, it's some of the least fun I have playing this game. My sets with GwJ are incredibly varied. I either bop him, he bops me, or it's janky overall.

Sonic has a pretty safe time edgeguarding ROB, but gimping is heavily reliant on stage spiking which can be teched. Otherwise, we'll just take our free damage and call it a day (Dropping springs, etc.) Even then though, ROB isn't completely helpless. The hardest thing for ROB trying to recover is that he can't attack WHILE using fuel, so Sonic can stuff that... ROB has to play very preemptively here, but I feel like that's how ROB has to play in general. Sonic will rely mostly on Uair, Bthrow, and Bair kills in this match-up I'd say, as smash attacks against ROB are so much more of a commitment that he would have an easier time dealing with.

The reason why ROB can do so well against Sonic though, is that Sonic's approaches are really awful. Our best approach in this match-up (and almost all match-ups) is shield... Yup. Against characters that don't have great zoning options, this isn't too bad for Sonic because of his plethora of mix-up tools... But against ROB, they can be rendered pretty useless if you just stay away from us. If we don't apply the pressure quickly, then it's a complete headache. ROB's gyros and lasers are effective, but outside of that, his tilts have good reach and his Nair surrounds him in hitboxes which really effectively cover Spin Dash/Spin Charge Rolls and Spin Dash/Spin Charge Jumps. It covers all our angles if we commit to a spin too much.

ROB's Uair also saves him imo. The fact that it's a kill move now is so good for him because Sonic's landing options are his other weakness outside of bad approaches. Catching/baiting/punishing our landing options is really easy for ROB since he can pressure you by putting gyros on ledges, pressuring from afar with lasers, and all that annoying stuff, so forcing us into bad positions is really easy and ROB can capitalize hard on that. Our landing options are far and few between, and if Sonic tries to land with Dair one too many times you can just Uair/Usmash us for a KO.

So basically, ROBs goal is to shut down Sonic before he can get too crazy. Sonic's approaches are only intimidating if you don't know how he works or what mix-up we're going for, but otherwise, are all easily outprioritized and really easy to camp out. However, if you make a bad call or leave yourself open, Sonic will completely hound you.

I feel #blessed to have so much material to refer back to.

Hope this helps. If you need more specifics, I can elaborate.

A lot of Sonics seem to dislike ROB… I was raised on this match-up so I've grown jaded to it.

 

[New Age Retro Hippie]

So far I think my most disliked MU is ZSS and... Olimar I think? Mega Man on someone who knows what to do with him but I feel like I'm getting it. Most Olimars I play are really predictable usually but the ranged grab is very devastating if they catch you. I don't like playing campy at all but I feel like with these guys there's not very much you can do otherwise unless they're just unfamiliar or not good players. Are there any videos out there of winning these MUs I can watch? I've seen a few of Joe I think vs. Jenny at Xanadu but I cant find much of Olimar or MM.

 

[Camalange]

Olimar was hell in Brawl.

I'm so grateful that I rarely see them in Smash 4, but now we have Rosaluma, haha.

 

[VKatana]

Honestly sometimes I feel like Mega Man is just as bad if not worse for Sonic than Fox is... I mean, Mega Men can just jab, f-tilt, and do retreating/advancing nairs, and how am I supposed to beat those pellets? I also had trouble against a Dedede at a local last night. I'm gonna go ahead and say I seriously believe there was a problem with my controller/inputs (maybe because I'm so used to playing on WiFi rather than local play) but I feel like he is still going to be a problem for me.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I feel Mega Man only has a slight advantage in the MU vs Sonic. (if BSD wasn't nerfed we would have some advantage D': ).
And yea i agree that ZSS is one of our more difficult MUs not because we can't KO her but because of how hard it is for us to hit her. Her overall superior mobility from ground to air is what makes the MU annoying. Though shield is out friend and worst enemy given that we usually abuse shield anyway for SDSC's which helps us bait out moves but also makes us susceptible to grabs which lead to uair juggles and potential up-b's. It's by no means unwinnable but definitely up there on the list of hard MUs next to fox (curse you having such powerful tools in neutral) and sheik (curse you having obnoxiously safe aerials) imo.

Though i'm starting to find a silver lining in Utilt. It's only boon is the fact our foot is made intangible when we use it so it can act as a pseudo frame trap where we can bait out an aerial after we get someone off the ground and beat them out/trade using Utilt. Though if the move had the range it had from Brawl and like 2 frames less cool down it would probably be able to true combo into itself at low % which would be so very nice. (sheds a tear knowing they tried to buff utilts combo potential by reducing it's knockback but forgot to reduce its cooldown).

 

[New Age Retro Hippie]

Yep I've been liking utilt in general but the reasons you list are great. An underutilized move, for sure.

 

[VKatana]

I feel Mega Man only has a slight advantage in the MU vs Sonic. (if BSD wasn't nerfed we would have some advantage D': ).
And yea i agree that ZSS is one of our more difficult MUs not because we can't KO her but because of how hard it is for us to hit her. Her overall superior mobility from ground to air is what makes the MU annoying. Though shield is out friend and worst enemy given that we usually abuse shield anyway for SDSC's which helps us bait out moves but also makes us susceptible to grabs which lead to uair juggles and potential up-b's. It's by no means unwinnable but definitely up there on the list of hard MUs next to fox (curse you having such powerful tools in neutral) and sheik (curse you having obnoxiously safe aerials) imo.

What I discovered across a 20 game span against a fairly decent ZSS main is that the MU became very different for me when I made one vital adaptation: don't ever stay in the same place after you shield something. ALWAYS escape. Moves like nair or down b would hit my shield and I could run away in time (or shield grab depending on what you block) and ZSS just couldn't catch up to me. It almost felt like if I didn't want to get hit, I wouldn't. That being said, keep up the usual punish game that makes Sonic top tier of course. But yeah, when I unshielded and stayed within the same area or when I held my shield, I would get punished HARD. I talking kill options or getting hit by big boy combos. This sort of contributes to my theory that defensive play is the truest way to play the top tier MUs. I asked Camalange about this on his ask.fm, and he says that he and 6WX agree that you can only play aggressive if you FULLY understand the char.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Yea i've slowly began to notice that vs ZSS that staying still vs her is a bad idea given your basically letting her gain all the stage control she wants. The same applies to Mega Man. Except vs Mega Man we have to basically focus on tuning our movement options around staying outside of his pellet range. ASC and ASD are your friend in this MU (all the more reason BSBS is poison).

My playstyle usually wraps around breaking down small instances and turning them into either situations where i can setup frames traps or just push people from one side of a stage to another while forcing them to pick options quickly which when it comes to dealing with ZSS becomes hard for me given her ability to just break out of an opponents pressure with down B.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

Which is funny considering I just got done playing a ZSS in FG and that was definitely a rough battle. Man I wish my friend didn't drop her, he said she's boring compared to her P:M version. Regardless gonna have to grind that out more.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I feel #blessed to have so much material to refer back to.

Hope this helps. If you need more specifics, I can elaborate.

A lot of Sonics seem to dislike ROB… I was raised on this match-up so I've grown jaded to it.

I just played against a ROB for like an hour. At first I was like....this sucks but he's pretty light. I was getting kills at like 90 percent with upsmash which isn't too hard to land. I believe it's a true punish on shielded Dsmash, great for punishing his roll. Just don't go too crazy when the top is on the field. He controls that space fairly well. It was mostly about learning his hitboxes and timings. Once I got that down it was pretty easy to plow through melee range with side b. Basically the same as you'd do to Luigi. ROB has to commit a LOT on a ton of things, his timing is just different so it'll throw you off if you play against him like he's most other characters.

You know who I've grown to dislike? GaW. I was pretty used to how his hitboxes linger and stuff in Brawl and I'm not sure if that's changed but I feel it has. I'll wait to punish and he'll recover fast enough to attack again. Really got to get around to practicing that match...I guess. He's not too common.

 

[Camalange]

Speaking of ZSS, does anyone truly know the proper way to DI that Uair > UpB noise?

It's been a topic on Facebook today… I've been seeing DI down? DI down and toward her? Can anyone confirm this jank? Supposedly it can get you out of the combo.

(sheds a tear knowing they tried to buff utilts combo potential by reducing it's knockback but forgot to reduce its cooldown).

"knowing they tried"
"forgot"

Utilt is underutilized… But for good reason. It's not utterly worthless, but the situations where it's ideal are far and few between.

I just played against a ROB for like an hour. At first I was like....this sucks but he's pretty light. I was getting kills at like 90 percent with upsmash which isn't too hard to land. I believe it's a true punish on shielded Dsmash, great for punishing his roll. Just don't go too crazy when the top is on the field. He controls that space fairly well. It was mostly about learning his hitboxes and timings. Once I got that down it was pretty easy to plow through melee range with side b. Basically the same as you'd do to Luigi. ROB has to commit a LOT on a ton of things, his timing is just different so it'll throw you off if you play against him like he's most other characters.

People just hate him because of his camp game. Sonic match-ups are always stressful when they have good projectiles and force us to approach.

Also, him having a Hoo-Hah is pretty stupid.

Once your'e in on ROB though, it's combo/KO city. Edgeguarding him won't really lead to gimps but it's pretty free damage.

Everything else is hellish though.

You know who I've grown to dislike? GaW. I was pretty used to how his hitboxes linger and stuff in Brawl and I'm not sure if that's changed but I feel it has. I'll wait to punish and he'll recover fast enough to attack again. Really got to get around to practicing that match...I guess. He's not too common.

I think you'll find that GaW is a lot more manageable. His lingering hitboxes aren't as ******** as they used to be. Bair and Fsmash (especially Fsmash) have been nerfed and I feel like even Dsmash is easier to avoid.

It's pretty great.

No one I know is like, great with that character though so… Who knows.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

As far as DI'ing her uair i haven't quite figured it out as if you DI towards her you usually can get hit by a bair which in specific situations could lead to a KO anyway. As far as the UP-B itself goes even with good DI if they space the Up-B properly you won't get out, or if they don't space it so your right they can just angle is mid up-b in order to catch your DI. (Which imo they should not be able to do)

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Any tips on getting the best out of Sonic's recovery?

Most of my recovery tactic is based on using Spin Shot or getting down low and then Up + B snapping to the ledge but many people I fight catch onto the Spin Shot thing fairly quickly and I'm unsure what to do when on the ledge. Ledge get ups in this game are absurdly safe but I feel like I'm missing something when it comes to recovering with Sonic and am interested to hear what other people have to say.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hey Rick, long time no see. Up B snap to ledge is pretty much the best we've got even though his options from there are not great. Sonics actually quite easy to edge guard if you understand his recovery, only thing I could suggest if your spinshots are being intercepted preemptively is to mix it up by stall with HA to recover every now and again. But I feel your pain if someone's got a feel of how I recover, I could do with advice too.

Also ROB matchup is dumb. I just played it for an hour straight (online admittedly) and he's one of the most frustrating characters to get in on there is. That and he can live forever. You have to play against him pretty differently, you've just gotta be aggro and chase him around, not **** about mid range and get hit with dumb jank, like you'd play against MM or Oli. Found I did a better when I kept hold of Gyro.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If the zss player is good, theres no way to get out.

Di ing down and towards just makes you not die from the last hit of the up b at thw top of the screen

 

[Camalange]

If the zss player is good, theres no way to get out.

Di ing down and towards just makes you not die from the last hit of the up b at thw top of the screen

That's what I've been wondering this whole time.

Didn't know if people were saying the combo was escapable, or if there's just a way to live it...