Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[DireDrop]

Is F smash fast enough to do that on reaction? Or do you need a read?

 

[Player -0]

You could just do quick SHFFL Up Air -> Anything

 

[GabPR]

Is F smash fast enough to do that on reaction? Or do you need a read?

It is relatively on the slow side, so reads may be necessary to really quick much such as fox side b. But since it has a bit of a lingering hitbox, the timing does not have to be perfect, and it works wonders against characters that like to sweetspot ledges.

 

[DireDrop]

You could just do quick SHFFL Up Air -> Anything

To punish Fox's side-B?

 

[N0PE]

Sonic's side-B has two variants, one being just side-B and the other being side-B into a slide attack.

Should I use one over the other or is it more situational than that? I tend to mostly use the slide variant because it behaves similarly to a dash attack but it seems like the non-extra-input side-b may be more useful than I think.

What do you guys do?

 

[Motobug]

Sonic's side-B has two variants, one being just side-B and the other being side-B into a slide attack.

Should I use one over the other or is it more situational than that? I tend to mostly use the slide variant because it behaves similarly to a dash attack but it seems like the non-extra-input side-b may be more useful than I think.

What do you guys do?

I like to use slide attack when I can edge cancel it (usually into an edgeguard) and a regular side-b into grab or aerial otherwise.

 

[Luk]

I like to use slide attack when I can edge cancel it (usually into an edgeguard) and a regular side-b into grab or aerial otherwise.

I used to do pretty much exactly this, but lately I've been finding that when close enough to the edge that I could ledge cancel it, if instead I JC grab -> down throw -> SH fair I can pretty regularly get super low % gimps. Heck, against some weight groups a side-b into this can be a 0 to kill combo if they don't react correctly to the down throw. But ymmv depending on character weight/floatiness/etc...

 

[Motobug]

I used to do pretty much exactly this, but lately I've been finding that when close enough to the edge that I could ledge cancel it, if instead I JC grab -> down throw -> SH fair I can pretty regularly get super low % gimps. Heck, against some weight groups a side-b into this can be a 0 to kill combo if they don't react correctly to the down throw. But ymmv depending on character weight/floatiness/etc...

Yea that's good too. I'm gonna use both, as a mixup.

 

[DrugsM2]

I like Dash attack. Some might disagree because of the long ending lag, but I think it's an excellent move for forcing people off stage.

I love dash attack, holy hell is sweet spot dash attack good, it sets up for a jab reset... think about that it makes me cringe just thinking about it, im not sure if any character can tech and grab or jab before youre able to act havent tested it but its usually a tech away because they try to DI to react

also boostgrab is great, but only only only on shield otherwise its awful, shield must be up or you must read it will be up but the payout is huge for reading a shield with it or reacting to a shield with it

Sonic's side-B has two variants, one being just side-B and the other being side-B into a slide attack.

Should I use one over the other or is it more situational than that? I tend to mostly use the slide variant because it behaves similarly to a dash attack but it seems like the non-extra-input side-b may be more useful than I think.

What do you guys do?

There both situational, try using side-b into wd as a form of just getting fast relatively safe hitboxes out in neutral because if it does land you push them a good ways away and gain some stage control

The sliding kick i address below

I like to use slide attack when I can edge cancel it (usually into an edgeguard) and a regular side-b into grab or aerial otherwise.

The sliding kick for sure is meant to extend combos on platforms by edge cancelling and to edgeguard or even kill with at higher percents (it hits as hard as fsmash FYI)

 

[Beets]

So I am sue you guys have had to answer this question a million times, but why is Sonic considered an "annoying piece of ****" by many in the community (notably Leffen)?

 

[Luk]

I can only speculate about other people's feelings. But my guess is that Sonic's speed lends itself to hit 'n run strategies (especially for players who are new to Sonic. It's a very easy way to start picking him up, especially pre-3.5). I suspect that hit 'n run is just generally a frustrating strategy to play against as it feels like a cheap and spineless way to approach an enemy. (And it's also just really frustrating to play against).

 

[Beets]

@ Luk I see. Thanks for the explanation. In that case, why would people not complain about Brawl Sonic or Smash 4 Sonic (even though I have, in fact, heard many a complaint about Smash 4 Sonic being OP).

 

[DrugsM2]

So I am sue you guys have had to answer this question a million times, but why is Sonic considered an "annoying piece of ****" by many in the community (notably Leffen)?

honestly, its because in every patch before 3.5 he really was an annoying piece of **** lol

 

[Beets]

@ DrugsM2 Yes I know but how? Because he's fast and has high priority / low endlag?

I don't even know if those are true. I'm not learned enough to recognize things such as that.

 

[DrugsM2]

basically, if youre playing sonic badly people wont have fun playing against you because sonic requires fundamentals now where as before to a certain extent he could get by without them

 

[GabPR]

The reasons vary from person to person. One of the reasons is similar to playing vs a falco, in which the character forces you to play his own game rather than your own, in Sonics case being you have to throw out as many hitboxes as posible and hope you hit him (which is one of the reasons Sonic can have problems vs linguering hitboxes). The other one is that Sonic can combo anything into anything, which people find unfair sometimes. The most important reason of course, is because his taunt cancels are S tier.

 

[Beets]

So I was messib with PM Sonic last night and I noticed a few things that are likely already well known:

Sonic can't jump out of Spin Dash in the air.
So I try to rely on Spring Jump but it goes really high and I haven't memorized thar distance.
Homing Attack usually ends in suicides (OR, I am not sharp enough to react with a follow-up on hit)
fair is the best
dair doesn't spike a la Smash 4, not sure if it did in Brawl
JC grab out of Spin Dash is best
Jump out of Spin Charge seems to be a fixed height? OR I just don't know how to short hop consistently.
Down Smash is immaculate.
Throw seemed rather unremarkable.

EDIT: Haven't played PM Sonic since Demo 1. I don't know anything. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

 

[Luk]

So I was messib with PM Sonic last night and I noticed a few things that are likely already well known:

Edit: ended up being obnoxiously long reply. Adding spoiler tags to try'n make it less obnoxious to scroll.

Spoiler

Sonic can't jump out of Spin Dash in the air

Correct as of 3.5. Though you can jump after it finishes and it can be canceled early by holding back.

Homing Attack usually ends in suicides

Yup, as of 3.5 you enter freefall if HA doesn't find a target. Gotta be careful with this now and can't just spam it. You shouldn't SD if over the stage and as far as off the stage goes, it does snap to the ledge so one safe technique is to short hop off the edge while facing the stage and HA. If the enemy is out of range or does something that makes them untargetable, worst case, you snap to the ledge and can try'n ledge-hog or something else.

fair is the best

Correct. Though don't neglect nair and bair. Twix't the 3 of them, you can deal with a lot of DI situations. e.g. d-tilt pops them in the air, depending on how they DI, you can SH (or full hop depending on %) and fair/nair/bair to hit them depending on which way they pop up

dair doesn't spike a la Smash 4, not sure if it did in Brawl

It actually does, it's just that you have to hit them early in the animation and the hitbox for it is a little hard to hit with.

JC grab out of Spin Dash is best

It is pretty amazing. So much so that I personally really struggle to not abuse it and become predictable as a result.

Jump out of Spin Charge seems to be a fixed height? OR I just don't know how to short hop consistently.

Not just you. It doesn't let you SH out of spin charge for some reason. I think I remember hearing that it's an attempt to not let you wavedash out of it?

Down Smash is immaculate.

Good to know. I don't use it much but maybe I need to give it some more use.

Throw seemed rather unremarkable.

Not at all. Up-throw leads into all kinds of combos and when near the edge of the stage, down-throw can easily set up some pretty sweet fair gimps. Also with up-throw at low-percents you can chain-grab spacies.

Sorry for the lengthiness. Hope this helps.

 

[Beets]

@ Luk If everyone was like you there would literally be no war.

 

[Luk]

@ Luk If everyone was like you there would literally be no war.

Haha, ok. Not sure why. But I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[Beets]

So I was watching SHOTS FIRED! this past weekend. I never really played Ike, but I couldn't help notice how fast he is.

To me his Quick Draw seems like a fast (better) Spin Dash.

Has Sonic gotten slower in this latest update?

 

[GabPR]

So I was watching SHOTS FIRED! this past weekend. I never really played Ike, but I couldn't help notice how fast he is.

To me his Quick Draw seems like a fast (better) Spin Dash.

Has Sonic gotten slower in this latest update?

Nope, and just out of curiosity, was there any Ike player besides ally streamed?

 

[DrugsM2]

Nope, and just out of curiosity, was there any Ike player besides ally streamed?

I dont think so

But on the subject of sonics side-b being similar to ike's it is, and everyone says ike's side-b is broken because it gives him burst movement with alot of options out of it, sonic already has burst movement no matter what so i like to think of side-b as the same as ike's just much shorter length with hitboxes on it, its becomming really good to me very slowly the more i learn to do stuff like Side-b on shield>WD in place>boost grab ontop of them or side-b hit confirming to grabs/tilts

 

[Ariyo]

guys, why is this character so good

 

[Player -0]

Because he's fast.

 

[GabPR]

Because he can combo anything into anything (looking at you u-throw)

 

[DrugsM2]

Because he's fast.

This, also hes the only character in the game besides pikachu with a spike you can reliably go off stage with lol (Not to mention having a meteor)

 

[Motobug]

This, also hes the only character in the game besides pikachu with a spike you can reliably go off stage with lol (Not to mention having a meteor)

Falcon nipple spike tho?

 

[DrugsM2]

Falcon nipple spike tho?

Reliably going off stage isnt something falcon does well lol

 

[Motobug]

Reliably going off stage isnt something falcon does well lol

I think it's certainly better than Melee falcon, but not as good as Sonic's.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I know this is a very subjective question, but...Is Sonic still good in 3.5? He's so fun and fast and am thinking of making a secondary of him.

 

[Player -0]

Yes

10Yeses

 

[SmooveJuice]

hey guys I'm semi new I've played for years and attended a few tournies but only recently been really active. Hope to learn from everyone.

 

[Solharath]

Hey guys you can footstool out of SDJ. Against a lot of characters(Haven't done a lot of testing), you can hit their shield, SDJ, and footstool to safety, keeping your double jump. The timing is hella tight, and unfortunately I don't think you can do it at max charge, but if they shield drop after the first hit to punish(like with an USmash/UpB option), your footstool will pretty much put you in a safer position every time, or set up for Dair.

Haven't looked into Aerial SideB.

 

[GabPR]

I know this is a very subjective question, but...Is Sonic still good in 3.5? He's so fun and fast and am thinking of making a secondary of him.

He is, and also really underrated.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Aerial side b can't jump cancel anymore, you would have to land first.

Speaking of side b, I was messing around with sonic and was wondering, what determines the high of the hop for side b, I don't think it's smash vs tilt, is it how long you hold the button. I've had varying results. I actually initially thought arousal and grounded side b had different methods (one being smash and one being how long you hold).

 

[Player -0]

I think it's how long you hold + where your control stick is.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Outside of recovery,I don't find the hop ever useful. Am I missing something. Grounded is different, though its so frustratingly slow sometimes a question it's uses (the hop). No hop aerial side b is probably my favorite thing to do (though my sonic isn't great...). Also, when do you use down b? I find side b to be more versatile and useful.

 

[DrugsM2]

Outside of recovery,I don't find the hop ever useful. Am I missing something. Grounded is different, though its so frustratingly slow sometimes a question it's uses (the hop). No hop aerial side b is probably my favorite thing to do (though my sonic isn't great...). Also, when do you use down b? I find side b to be more versatile and useful.

Examples of Down-b uses ive found, i use it a ton for recovery i save my DJ and down-b most every time i recover and just aim it so my DJ sweetspots the ledge if they go the ledge ill jump early and side-b onto the stage
https://gfycat.com/ArcticSkinnyKob
https://gfycat.com/ChubbySilverBream

 

[SmooveJuice]

so I've been having problems with spinshot. Do I just press jump immediately after I let go. I really feel like i need to start doing this more for recovery otherwise his horizontal recovery is pretty bad.