Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Luk]

Was watching a Wizzrobe video and saw him not freefall after a whiffed Blast Attack. Can anybody tell me what happened here and how Wizzy was able to up-b here? https://youtu.be/rtH9pKeE9fU?t=261. It doesn't look like he got hit by anything and I thought that BA would enter freefall if you missed regardless of whether the lock-on would have found a target.

Edit: Nevermind. Based on the comments, some of Sonic's down-b behavior and that BA thing, this is apparently 3.02 for some reason.

 

[Sartron]

Was watching a Wizzrobe video and saw him not freefall after a whiffed Blast Attack. Can anybody tell me what happened here and how Wizzy was able to up-b here? https://youtu.be/rtH9pKeE9fU?t=261. It doesn't look like he got hit by anything and I thought that BA would enter freefall if you missed regardless of whether the lock-on would have found a target

That is 3.02 footage, homing attack sends you into special fall as of 3.5.

 

[Luk]

That is 3.02 footage, homing attack sends you into special fall as of 3.5.

Yeah, didn't edit my comment in time. That sucks. I basically don't use the move any more as a result of that change :-/ Was hoping there was some technique or something that made it more globally useful and less situational/dangerous.

 

[NyTR0]

^
Seriously. The reward for hitting it is barely even worth when the risks are getting hit out of it cause no priority, special fall, and stomping the ground with all that lag. Would be pretty need if BA has a special property to at least give BA some sort of light armor. Would be neat cause you'd think a Sonic signature move like that would be a bit more I don't know... Sonic! He's pretty floaty so the light armor wouldn't be super duper dumb but Idk. BA is meh.

Edit: made a typo and said give homing light armor. Meant BA. Not homing.

 

[Star ☆]

I disagree. Blast Attack is an amazing combo extender and is very useful in setting up further on stage followups and throw combos. Unlike Homing Attack, Blast Attack is a high committal option due to its amazing set up speed and reward gained from its usage, generally because the opponent has a lack of DI because the move is frame 5. Sets up perfectly from a sourspot fair and side special on stage. Never use this move in the neutral, that's not what its meant for. I'm fine with the freefall issue. With Homing Attack specifically I always prime a B-turnaround lest I fall to my death if the opponent doesn't get caught by the homing beacon.

 

[NyTR0]

It can barely extend combos. There are better options for combo game and that's the current issue with blast attack. You really won't get much of a reward by using it. Probably like 2 or 3 hits. Not that worth risking a ground pound or worse, special fall.

 

[Vultron]

It can barely extend combos. There are better options for combo game and that's the current issue with blast attack. You really won't get much of a reward by using it. Probably like 2 or 3 hits. Not that worth risking a ground pound or worse, special fall.

That's why you only Blast Attack when it's definitely going to land, and you want to give yourself more options mid combo. It's not meant as a one size fits all move.

 

[Star ☆]

It can barely extend combos. There are better options for combo game and that's the current issue with blast attack. You really won't get much of a reward by using it. Probably like 2 or 3 hits. Not that worth risking a ground pound or worse, special fall.

At lower percents Blast Attack links out of side b if the opponent doesn;t crouch cancel, which you can then link into dair to reset a tech chase situation. Landing the dair sweetspot out of side special is impossible without the blast attack and adds 8 extra percent and the possibility of a followup in the tech chase scenario.

Out of up throw it also leads straight into uair if the opponent is too far horizontally due to hard DI away from Sonic.

 

[NyTR0]

Lol who doesn't cc when playing against Sonic? Everyone always holds down against Sonic. Sonic already has a good combo game with all his other stuff. so blast just becomes a pretty bleh move. Sonic combos at high percentages against certain characters which is pointless. What he needs are reliable moves to set up for kills that doesn't include up throw to up air or Down B to nair but I guess Sonic is okay the way he is currently. I use BA in my combos and even I'm willing to admit it's a pretty bleh move. It's a decent move at best. It's not a bad move just a meh move.

 

[Luk]

Yeah, I will grant that my never using it doesn't give me very much ground to say anything about it. I'll have to really start trying to incorporate it into my combo game before committing to an opinion on it.

@Star, sounds like out of side-b (presumably something like side-b -> SH -> BA) is a common use. As well as up-throw (opponent DIing away) -> SH/jump towards -> BA. I'll work on those. Any other good bread 'n butter combos that you incorporate BA into?

Kind of sounds like a slightly different version of Nair for situations in which the opponent is just a little too far ahead of Sonic OR you're in a situation where you want to pop them up a little higher than where they currently are. Does that sound about right?

 

[Player -0]

If people are CCing Side B and not buffering spotdodge/roll free grab. If they start spotdodging/rolling you can WD OoSide B into a free kill move. That or SH out of it then start a Down B if you're feeling extra lazy.

 

[Star ☆]

Yeah, I will grant that my never using it doesn't give me very much ground to say anything about it. I'll have to really start trying to incorporate it into my combo game before committing to an opinion on it.

@Star, sounds like out of side-b (presumably something like side-b -> SH -> BA) is a common use. As well as up-throw (opponent DIing away) -> SH/jump towards -> BA. I'll work on those. Any other good bread 'n butter combos that you incorporate BA into?

Kind of sounds like a slightly different version of Nair for situations in which the opponent is just a little too far ahead of Sonic OR you're in a situation where you want to pop them up a little higher than where they currently are. Does that sound about right?

That is correct. Blast Attack is used to extend Sonic's range and land aerials where he could usually not with standardised combos.

Also @ NyTR0 counterplay exists to beat crouch canceling characters such as wavedash back or JC grab. Other players will learn this quick and they will mix up their CC in order to dissuade certain followups and as a result Blast Attack becomes useful. Also, many characters cannot CC side special at mid percents so Blast Attack is a very viable option.

Every combo that you utilise Blast Attack in resets momentum and adds an extra 8%, if you have a double jump left you can get heaps of mileage out of this option. I recommend you play around with it a bit more before you consolidate your opinion as I find the risk/reward factor of the move very intriguing and fun to utilise.

 

[Player -0]

Afaik Side B, when JCed, doesn't have the end hit launcher thingy mabob so it's CCable into high percents.

Of course JC grab out of it is gahlk (unless you're playing vs. Shines)

 

[NyTR0]

Thing is that I actually use blast attack. I already said this. It's a nice move and sadly that's all it is at the moment. Most I've gotten with it was BA, Dair, up throw, BA, dair, and finished with a Gatling combo. That's it.

 

[Xion DarkRose]

I feel like there is some hidden potential in BA. I'mma start labbing with it and draw a verdict.

 

[DrugsM2]

*****
floaties
hard

 

[Vultron]

I feel like there is some hidden potential in BA. I'mma start labbing with it and draw a verdict.

It flows into your other aerials really well. It's almost like a combo reset.

 

[Luk]

It flows into your other aerials really well. It's almost like a combo reset.

Really, I've been feeling frustrated with the end-lag on it. Even when I get a hit on it, it feels like by the time I'm able to do anything again they're already air-dodging or throwing an attack of their own out. Maybe I just need to get a better feel for the timing on it.

 

[Vultron]

Really, I've been feeling frustrated with the end-lag on it. Even when I get a hit on it, it feels like by the time I'm able to do anything again they're already air-dodging or throwing an attack of their own out. Maybe I just need to get a better feel for the timing on it.

You can interrupt BA a lot faster than a regular homing attack. I usually do it off stage do they are not inclined to air dodge.

 

[Luk]

You can interrupt BA a lot faster than a regular homing attack. I usually do it off stage do they are not inclined to air dodge.

What do you mean by "interrupt"? I know it comes out much much faster, but that end lag on hitting the opponent is what's annoying. Do you mean that you can cut down on the hit lag somehow?

 

[Star ☆]

What do you mean by "interrupt"? I know it comes out much much faster, but that end lag on hitting the opponent is what's annoying. Do you mean that you can cut down on the hit lag somehow?

Blast Attack's IASA (interruptible as soon as) window begins on frame 15 whereas Homing Attack is frame 30. This means that you can cancel the taunt animation after Blast Attack more reliably into followup than you can of the likes of Homing Attack. Try both Blast Attack and Homing Attack and try to mash nair out as soon as you can, Blast Attack's window will be noticeably earlier.

Also, Blast Attack doesn't really become useful until mid percents; at low percents opponents can just trade with you before you land anything. You can land instant fairs straight out of Somersault > short hop BA though.

 

[Luk]

Blast Attack's IASA (interruptible as soon as) window begins on frame 15 whereas Homing Attack is frame 30. This means that you can cancel the taunt animation after Blast Attack more reliably into followup than you can of the likes of Homing Attack. Try both Blast Attack and Homing Attack and try to mash nair out as soon as you can, Blast Attack's window will be noticeably earlier.

Oh really? That's cool. I'll have to try this out in training mode to get a feel for the timing

Also, Blast Attack doesn't really become useful until mid percents; at low percents opponents can just trade with you before you land anything. You can land instant fairs straight out of Somersault > short hop BA though.

Yeah that was one thing that I found was working pretty well for me. As a mix up to side-b -> JC grab, sometimes I'll side-b -> SH -> fair/nair/bair depending on DI -> more side-b to follow. But when they DI away often they'd get beyond the reach of that fair, so I could easily see getting a lot of mileage out of BA for that side-b rush-down thing.

Also, I've heard "BA is NOT an approach", but I've found as an occasional mix up, it's not bad. It's such a weird timing thing and looks similar enough to a SH nair approach (but with a later timing on it) that I could see catching the opponent going too early with a spot-dodge or coming out of shield thinking that something else is going on.

 

[Vultron]

Also, I've heard "BA is NOT an approach", but I've found as an occasional mix up, it's not bad. It's such a weird timing thing and looks similar enough to a SH nair approach (but with a later timing on it) that I could see catching the opponent going too early with a spot-dodge or coming out of shield thinking that something else is going on.

Blast Attack and Homing Attack are pretty good mixups! It's good for repositioning yourself if you're in an awkward area (Like Sonic 3 to sour spot Nair, but they DI/SDI down and away). Homing attack works the same way if they arr throwing out unsafe approaches during neutral.

 

[MWEX]

Blast/Homing Attack are good; the hitbox isn't awful, just need to be comfortable with the move.

Both these options lead into F-Air or N-Air normally, but dependent on DI, you can follow them based on which way they go.

I'm surprised no one has talked about reaction tech chases with d-throw; it is incredibly useful considering blast/homing can be used as the go-to moves for tech chases.

Throwing these moves in neutral isn't that great from max distance, doing it when they panic is better than anything because they're trying to escape.

 

[Star ☆]

Homing Attack can generally cover up to three options in a tech chase scenerio depending on the speed and invulnerability frames of the character that you're fighting. I like to think of it as the low risk/low reward alternative to grabbing and following up as Homing Attack doesn't yield the same reward that throwing does.

 

[Vultron]

Homing Attack can generally cover up to three options in a tech chase scenerio depending on the speed and invulnerability frames of the character that you're fighting. I like to think of it as the low risk/low reward alternative to grabbing and following up as Homing Attack doesn't yield the same reward that throwing does.

It really just depends on how good at converting from Homing Attacks. Because FFing after HA then running up and SweetSpot NAir to edge guard

 

[Star ☆]

It really just depends on how good at converting from Homing Attacks. Because FFing after HA then running up and SweetSpot NAir to edge guard

Whilst Homing Attack doesn't usually directly lead into worthwhile followups at certain percents, it is good for maintaining frame advantage and putting yourself into a good position to capatilise on opponent's panicked options whilst in hitstun. Some characters can be directly followed up on at certain percents though, you are correct.

Ergh I wrote 1,500 words about this move in the guide so I think I'll stop the conversation in here for now and you guys can read my thoughts about it when I post it later this week.

 

[Vultron]

-snip-
Ergh I wrote 1,500 words about this move in the guide so I think I'll stop the conversation in here for now and you guys can read my thoughts about it when I post it later this week.

Hurry up and finish it then!

 

[MWEX]

If anything I'm planning on making my own guide that will be abridged more than anything.
A full guide requires too much information to digest in one sitting and people want something to read in 10-20 mins.

 

[Vultron]

If anything I'm planning on making my own guide that will be abridged more than anything.
A full guide requires too much information to digest in one sitting and people want something to read in 10-20 mins.

You can just troll the forums for that, and @ Awaken The Bear has a nice video that is probably what you're looking for.

People like long guides, look at how successful Sethlon and Poob's guides are.

 

[Awaken The Bear]

You can just troll the forums for that, and @ Awaken The Bear has a nice video that is probably what you're looking for.

People like long guides, look at how successful Sethlon and Pool's guides are.

Oh neat that's me! I'm actually working on updating my guide now that 3.6 is out. Covering all the stuff I missed and also cutting out all the rambling. Still working on recording it currently.

 

[Sonic94]

When should I go for the down air spike instead of the f air spike, vs a back air off stage?

How usfull are shuffled aerials for sonic?

When should I use wavedashing as sonic?

 

[Star ☆]

Down air spike will only work if you can space the hitbox, and that requires you to actually be as close to the opponent as possible. In most situations the dair spike is more useful due to its power so if you have the setup to land it, do so. The only time I'd suggest doing fair instead is if you're too deep offstage as dairing would kill you.

Shffl nair and fair are good, especially nair, which is has great frame data on shield. Just be careful with the spacing though as most other characters will beat your aerials if you throw them out unsafely.

Wavedashing is great out of dash dances in order to create deceptive movement and bait attacks. It's also great to halt your sprinting momentum and analyse the opponent.

My guide will be out tomorrow, I hope you can get some insight as to more of Sonic's stuff if you decide to read it

 

[Solharath]

Sonic's Homing attack locks on to Ness's PK fire

 

[Motobug]

Sonic's Homing attack locks on to Ness's PK fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F-2k_23yaA

seriously what's the point

 

[Star ☆]

Yeah, my friend submitted this as a bug back in 3.6 Beta. It's been in the game for many versions now. I'm unsure why it still hasn't been fixed.

 

[Solharath]

I've discovered a few bugs, but I wasn't expecting a surprise release like this. I might have done a better job cataloging them instead of just resting my laurels, but they're not exactly game breaking. Just weird.

 

[Star ☆]

I think it's due to PK Fire's strange coding, not the coding of Homing Attack.

 

[Lex__]

second one im disapointed in was so close to a cool combo.

 

[Luk]

second one im disapointed in was so close to a cool combo.

Those were so cool. I wonder if you'd have gotten that second one if instead of up-b'ing you'd gone for another fair. Definitely wouldn't have gotten the meteor, but if it sweet spotted in the early frames it might have killed off the side? Tough spacing though. Amazing combos.