Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Sounds very situational but it could still be useful for baiting a shield on your opponent. I'll try it out sometime; it's not game breaking but it helps with mix-ups.
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Sonic General Discussion/Social thread
- Thread starter Wizzrobe
- Start date
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Who needs buffed kill power when ya got a perfectly fine gimp with your fair? Did yall forget about that?
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
not everyone is going to get gimped by your fair
most good people are not going to have that happen to them consistently.
most good people are not going to have that happen to them consistently.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
That's too situational. It's cool when it happens but Sonic needs a way to kill that doesn't need his opponent off stage. Most high tier characters have great gimping tools as well as solid KO moves.Who needs buffed kill power when ya got a perfectly fine gimp with your fair? Did yall forget about that?
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
Lol, Sonic announced for Smash4. Maybe he'll have a better showing this time.
Sanity's_Theif
Smash Ace
Has anyone even bothered with 2.6 Sonic in tournament yet? Seems like anyone who was playing him before just dropped him and I can't blame them one bit
Nazo
Smash Journeyman
I still use Sonic in tournaments. Though I only played in like 1-2 tournaments since I've returned to Arizona. I don't get to play a lot because of college and my USB loader being F'd up.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
Yes, I've run Sonic in a few tournaments. In fact we had a $1 buy in tournament recently where I went full Sonic just to see how well I can stack up to people I've defeated previously. Sonic was trash and once they figured out he had no answers to some of their options it was just the saddest thing.
Could have gone Ivy and won, but that's not my style. I'm going to Big House 3 with Sonic at the forefront, but... I am not expecting to make it very far. I'll probably dabble in Ivy in Pools to make sure I make it to bracket, but when I'm there I'm running Sonic until Sonic runs out.
So Loser's Round 1, really.
Could have gone Ivy and won, but that's not my style. I'm going to Big House 3 with Sonic at the forefront, but... I am not expecting to make it very far. I'll probably dabble in Ivy in Pools to make sure I make it to bracket, but when I'm there I'm running Sonic until Sonic runs out.
So Loser's Round 1, really.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
Went to a very small tournament once. Got wrecked by Falco Laser pressure.
Alex Night
Smash Ace
I do not wish to discuss about that overgrown plant that ReflexWonder treasures so much...
Falco has always been a son of a %$#@& with his laser pressure unless you got the Hylian Shield, Angel Shield, or a Reflector. I'd much rather face Fox as Fox has no reason to try and laser spam Sonic when Sonic can close in on him without worries of stun slowing him down. You give Falco room to work with and he will annoy the crap out of you with lasers and up Smash you.
Problem with powershielding is that it is nearly impossible to get power shields consistently. Even Mang0 and M2K can't get it all the time. Small stages are good to give Falco little to no room to laser spam, but it is also a trade off as he can Shine pressure you until you're up in the air for Pillaring. I'd rather deal with Falco using Link or Mario.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
It was such a small tourney, basically free entry and no prize, we just played random. I remember winning on Pokemon Stadium 2 and losing on FD. I don't remember the 3rd stage. He beat me in 3. Powershielding is a bit too tough for me to do consistently.
I don't think small stages are that great for Sonic. Especially not against someone like Falco. You need range to take up the whole stage (like Marth), or a speedy move set to keep the pressure on (like Fox or Falco). Sonic's moves, ironically, aren't that speedy. He needs room to do dash dancing nonsense and down-b shenanigans. Though, I have had a lot of luck on GHZ before, so maybe I'm just wrong.
Alex Night
Smash Ace
batistabus
Smash Journeyman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj3uoZPuazk
It sure was cool how down-b used to lead into follow ups like that. Too bad that also allowed Sonic to totally camp within his spin and basically substituted his run. If only there was a way to give him a similar pressure option and a setup move without the 2.5 bull****, while at the same time further differentiating his side-b from his down-b, and while even further encouraging precision and proper non-attack-based movement....
So how taboo would it be for me to tease the idea of giving Sonic a spin-based shine-like attack? It'd definitely look natural as part of his moveset. Lucas and Ness received similar changes, so it's not just sacred to the Spacies anymore. Just something small with weak hits (but not like Fox's where it always has the same knockback). No invincibility or reflective qualities or anything, just a little sumthin' sumthin'...
It sure was cool how down-b used to lead into follow ups like that. Too bad that also allowed Sonic to totally camp within his spin and basically substituted his run. If only there was a way to give him a similar pressure option and a setup move without the 2.5 bull****, while at the same time further differentiating his side-b from his down-b, and while even further encouraging precision and proper non-attack-based movement....
So how taboo would it be for me to tease the idea of giving Sonic a spin-based shine-like attack? It'd definitely look natural as part of his moveset. Lucas and Ness received similar changes, so it's not just sacred to the Spacies anymore. Just something small with weak hits (but not like Fox's where it always has the same knockback). No invincibility or reflective qualities or anything, just a little sumthin' sumthin'...
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
His side-B could be that if it weren't for the jump cancel delay. In 2.1 it kind of was, except it was too strong, and very uninteresting to use (side-B wavedash all day everyday). I like how side-B works now since in can lead to a grab, that cool sliding kick thing, or anything else you can do out of a jump. It's not so ridiculous that it replaces running as a form of movement. The PMBR could just adjust the hitboxes so they come out on frame 1, remove the jump cancel delay and... boom, Spin Shine!
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
I wish they didn't put a JC delay on Ike's side-b too =(
Alex Night
Smash Ace
That doesn't sound impossible. Like Diredrop said, just undo the JC delay and Sonic can do setups like in that video without breaking the game or replacing his running movement.
batistabus
Smash Journeyman
The problem is, if you remove the JC delay, Sonic doesn't have to commit to the move, which was a large part of the problem before (and part of the problem Ike had in 2.1). Plus, I like side-b and hate down-b =P
Alex Night
Smash Ace
How? It only would just give him a stronger pressure game and Side B is nowhere near as abusable as Down B was in 2.5b.
Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Keep the jump cancel delay on side-B but give the first 1-2 frames of start up some durability or invincibility frames.
Alex Night
Smash Ace
Start up durability? You mean like Super Armor?
Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Durability, yes. To help with close combat against projectile characters and 1 frame jump
cancel-able moves.
cancel-able moves.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
I can't speak for Ike, but I don't see how that's a problem. Sonic is still quite vulnerable in his current Side-B. It clashes with nothing and is slower than his running speed. On a different note, the Spacies can jump cancel their shines. The shine is a ridiculously awesome move. I can't help but feel that if they weren't Melee veteran's, they would have gotten delays on their shines just like Ike and Sonic got delays on their side-Bs. I can respect and appreciate the PMBRs decision to favor committing to attacks, but it doesn't feel like that philosophy is very consistent right now.
This is probably the best example of the difference between raw theory-crafting and the application of theory-crafting.
Things change, inevitably. There's no way Marth vs Wario will be Fair spam without a single Fair CC'd throughout an entire match, even between those 2 players, in a couple years. No way. They, and all others, will grow beyond that. Though it happened. Why? Underdevelopment. The only reason why people immediately comment/see this, when they can't see it in other situations? It's HAPPENED already (Melee). The only reason this is ANY different than SONIC stuff? It HAPPENED already. You can still see it, how clearly it will change, and how it's going to change, it just hasn't happened yet.
You 'can' see how things will change, it's possible, it's just a matter of seeing it a certain way.
Hope that made sense. :D
Otherwise, 2 things.
1) Until someone puts 'anything' into play, I wouldn't take anything without lots of salt. So far, there's nothing to even put salt on yet.
2) I've personally coached some of the top melee players, and changed the meta-game of it directly enough, but video tutorials or something are likely to come in some form. Helping people break the game takes far more priority than breaking the game ever will. The growth of people > the growth of players. The game is a tool.
Good stuff.
Edit:
Seriously, take away 2.1 Side-B, or 2.5 Down-B, and you've got a KILLER Character. But then add those... and there's no point to the rest of him.
Now there's purpose for his stuff... it may be too good still, it may be lacking... but at least there's purpose to developing a meta-game with him.
Too many variables are more significant around killing than simply the 'strong attack' or 'gimp move' when it comes to taking stocks.
Process peeps. Process to kill spacies, process to do damage. Like a Pika, but less 'Up-up-up'
In a Seth vs Reflex match (was apparently kind of hyped as they're (or were?) some of the better PM players at the time, was Marth vs Wario. Almost all the comments about it, were about how it looked (paralleled almost exactly) 2006/07 meta-game. Whether it was the underdeveloped match-up, or lack of experience of the players with that type of play, or whatever, Marth played like he was fighting a Jiggs in 07, and the Wario played like it was effective. The only reason either of the players were effective/ineffective with the game-play, was because of lacking what is literally the next phase of the meta-game. You'll never see Marth playing that way against anyone anymore, as it simply doesn't work, and it shouldn't work, and even in 06/07, the signs were there that it wouldn't work for long.
Things change, inevitably. There's no way Marth vs Wario will be Fair spam without a single Fair CC'd throughout an entire match, even between those 2 players, in a couple years. No way. They, and all others, will grow beyond that. Though it happened. Why? Underdevelopment. The only reason why people immediately comment/see this, when they can't see it in other situations? It's HAPPENED already (Melee). The only reason this is ANY different than SONIC stuff? It HAPPENED already. You can still see it, how clearly it will change, and how it's going to change, it just hasn't happened yet.
You 'can' see how things will change, it's possible, it's just a matter of seeing it a certain way.
Hope that made sense. :D
Otherwise, 2 things.
1) Until someone puts 'anything' into play, I wouldn't take anything without lots of salt. So far, there's nothing to even put salt on yet.
2) I've personally coached some of the top melee players, and changed the meta-game of it directly enough, but video tutorials or something are likely to come in some form. Helping people break the game takes far more priority than breaking the game ever will. The growth of people > the growth of players. The game is a tool.
Good stuff.
Edit:
Power-Shield. Falco laser pressure is out-dated. ;p
This is why no meta-game actually flushed out with 2.1 or 2.5 Sonic. He didn't HAVE to have dynamics in the meta-game.
Seriously, take away 2.1 Side-B, or 2.5 Down-B, and you've got a KILLER Character. But then add those... and there's no point to the rest of him.
Now there's purpose for his stuff... it may be too good still, it may be lacking... but at least there's purpose to developing a meta-game with him.
Stuff regarding specific tangible maneuvers only goes so far (PS-lasers-lul).Who needs buffed kill power when ya got a perfectly fine gimp with your fair? Did yall forget about that?
Too many variables are more significant around killing than simply the 'strong attack' or 'gimp move' when it comes to taking stocks.
Process peeps. Process to kill spacies, process to do damage. Like a Pika, but less 'Up-up-up'
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
Actually, I like sonic except for his down air. Instead of a dive, I think it would be more beneficial to have a killing attack instead. I don't think he'd be too hurt from losing his current dair and it certainly wouldn't be broken.
Alex Night
Smash Ace
Of all the moves that I want changed, Dair is not on that list. That's his best setup for a FSmash near the edge and it could kill while off the stage albeit that it is very dangerous to do so.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
Also, jump out of spin dash to reverse D-air is like the greatest thing ever.
Urielhelix
Smash Cadet
I would have to agree! I do that all the time to get over pits mirror shield.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
Yeeeaaah except Sonic can't crouch cancel for long, and the fair was more of an example of what Marth can do, not the end-all move that makes him oh-so-broken. Just because a metagame has developed in handling a certain move doesn't mean it is no longer a threat. It means you've developed a metagame to fear a good move, that you can't crouch cancel in the air. You need other good Marth Moves? UP OoS, Ftilt, that AMAZING grab range, uair.... FSmash, Utilt(ohmigawd utilt so sexy).
Something you seem to be ignoring is the increased rate of the metagame as we've developed as a community. Not only are we given tools to use by the PMBR right off the bat(things like Ike's QD>RAR>Bair) which lead to their development wholesale by the Ike community, there are more players and more communication then ever before in the Smash Community. It doesn't take long for the metagame to find an equilibrium across the playerbase, especially high-level play. And remember, we are years into Project M, and even though balancing happens, insofar many of the characters play similarly to how they debuted, and when things change all focus goes around those changes, before they bleed back into discovering the character as a whole. What process used to take years takes months, sometimes weeks if your name is Metroid and you play 2.1 Ike/2.5 Charizard. There is so much more in the way of information, videos, and guides that you can't argue an undeveloped metagame for long. A few choice underdeveloped match-ups, sure, but a character as a whole? No way.
The characters are constructed this way, instead of discovered. "I didn't know X could do that!" has turned into, "Mm, I need to check the character page/board." We have members of the PMBR playing this game at a high level in regional and national tournaments, showing what knowledge on an intimate level can do.
I'm not saying there isn't anything left to develop, but you're seemingly arguing we're still going to see late game character growth like we did with Jigglypuff in Melee. Sonic is continued bottom tier by many players, but I'm willing to argue he's mid-tier... if a bit low on the mids, and that's only if a player can emerge as the next Taj or Gimpyfish of Sonic. Wizzy used to be, but 2.6 happened and he's gone straight Melee, it seems.
Lastly, try not to argue things like 'shouldn't' work. If it works, it works.
Take everything with salt. There are tons to put salt on right now, like everything you are saying, and everything I am saying. I'd hate for anyone to just latch on to an opinion without having their own, even if it means I have someone who supports me. And number two... really? Can you send some in here to vouch for you, not just as a friend but a literal and actual coach who quote you as having changed their play so significantly that they've changed the meta-game because they knew you? I mean, you said there was nothing to put salt on then immediately say something that I would throw an entire Morton Salt factory on.Otherwise, 2 things.
1) Until someone puts 'anything' into play, I wouldn't take anything without lots of salt. So far, there's nothing to even put salt on yet.
2) I've personally coached some of the top melee players, and changed the meta-game of it directly enough, but video tutorials or something are likely to come in some form. Helping people break the game takes far more priority than breaking the game ever will. The growth of people > the growth of players. The game is a tool.
Good stuff.
You know when you use a word so much it loses all meaning. Yeah, "metagame". Sonic had a plenty established metagame in 2.1 and 2.5. You can't say it was "focused on spin" because that isn't what metagame means. Metagame is the player vs. player stuff. Getting an opponent to make the mistake that'll let you sweep the win. Sonic used spin shenanigans to create options and get into an opponent's head, it was just so freakin' good that the metagame surrounded spin(not focused), because that was the "best" tool to create openings. The big part was that the opponent had to keep spin in mind at all times, that approaching with a secondary option was a lot more feasible because they were defending against spin. And considering how well Wizzy used that to his advantage(among other moves), Sonic's player vs player mindset was deeper than others because he had the tools to make it easier on him, and the moves to get the kills when he did get in.
Now he has neither the tools nor the kill options. He still has options but his player vs. player mindset is shrinking the more other characters know about Sonic, and is unchanging the more Sonic learns about his opponent. Moonwalking is fun, but the best use I've found for it is Moonwalk into Ftilt, which isn't scary because Ftilt doesn't do what needs to be done. Sonic is easily crouch canceled by everything. Literally the best defense against Sonic is holding down on the control stick, taking the hit, and then you get to freely setup your next move - and you can do this until ludicrously high percentages. If you can't fear his tilt game, then you fear his grab game, so then you defend against grabs, which really, defending against grabs does a good job of defending against a lot of Sonic's options already due to his poor priority. Protect your space, throw out projectiles. Bait grabs and punish. A problem with Sonic's speed is that you can literally fail at grabbing or pivot grabbing because he's so fast that all opportunities to grab pass by in the span of a spot dodge(of course this is character specific, as larger characters generally can still be grabbed, also Peach).
,,,I try not to post so much because I seem to only go on rants.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
There's plenty of salt to go around here after that nerf.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
Real talk the Morton Salt factory in my town caught fire when I was posting that.
I mean it catches fire like once a year but the timing was fantastic.
I mean it catches fire like once a year but the timing was fantastic.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
I was just messing around with Fox a little, and then also going back to Sonic. It would be really cool if Sonic just had a faster move set. Not necessarily a harder hitting one. With the exception of Fox's UpSmash (Which I know is a reeeaaalllly big exception) the KO power of Fox's moves isn't that different from Sonic's. If Sonic's Bair came out as fast as Fox's, it'd be great. If Sonic's Fair came out as fast like... Shiek's, it'd be great. If Sonic's FSmash was as fast as Fox/Falco's, it'd be totally awesome. All of Sonic's tilts could be much faster too. Then he could be this super fast combo machine, which would be a lot of fun.
PseudoTypical
Smash Lord
lol That's something they should probably look into. I agree, though; excellent timing...
Ranting is fun.
I'll number them so this makes sense.
1) I think you missed the point of that almost entirely. I was referring to the difference between the way people see meta-games. Everyone immediately pointed out, and 'understood' that Wario shouldn't (understood that Wario can do things to stop that kind of thing from ever happening, and it simply wasn't being applied at all even at current top-level play) have that kind of trouble with a Marth playing that way, and as the meta-game grows/different players play/the players learn more, Marth won't clobber Wario that hard at a top level, because it's simply not what WILL happen, even though it clearly JUST happened. That could be called 'seeing the meta-game' or the future of it. The difference between that and Sonic meta-game quirks (or most other things in the game), is people haven't been through that process sense, and what IS happening, will NOT happen when it's all 'said-and-done', or even in 6 months from now. lol
This isn't anything to do with Marth's godlike killing comboing ridiculous U-tilt, or what meta-game evolved to counter him, it's about the perspective difference between what HAS happened and what WILL, compare to what IS.
2) For sure, people get better at everything all the time. Especially getting better at getting better, but it's still moving like a slug compared to what it could. It's WAY better now than in 2.1, that was awfully slow.
For all of the examples you (or I) can list, there are just as many the other way. Example: Why is it that barely anything happened to Wolf from 2.1 to now, and yet he's gone from possible-low tier to near-top tier in terms of the general public's thoughts on it? People don't give nearly enough attention to certain details to actually be able to see clearly, no matter how clearly people think they see their ability at seeing. If that makes sense to you, awesome.
3) That Wolf example, Jiggs in Melee just as much, and essentially everything else in the game, it still comes down to discovery inevitably, simply because it's not accurately perceived from square 1.
4) Mid Tier? Good, then he's right where he needs to be.
5) Good call on the 'should' though I simply used the word as it was in context to other comments. What I'm implying with it is simply, what's happening now, isn't the final meta-game, and there's no reason to think the current state of affairs is a representation of the match-up, and rather a tangible thing to analyze, at best.
6) Salt is fun. If you list your 20 'toppish' Melee players, there will certainly be some in there that I've spoken to in depth about the mental development and awareness of the game to either help players over hurdles or clarify for themselves in an explainable way what they already 'know' so they can work with it, among other detailing. If you're really interested, PM me, perhaps we can actually discuss something useful (like improving rate of improvement as a vague popular example). I have my reasons for this, and won't name-drop for credentials or any other political means of swaying opinions publicly. It's harmful do discussion beyond reason, and burdening at that.
7) That's exactly what I was saying. It was all on spin, there's was no reason for it not to be. Take spin away and Sonic was STILL a great character. Worse, maybe, more restrictive, not necessarily, but more linear in the way he could do the things that he would have been able to do anyways. This simply allowed Sonic to do things in a more universal fashion with a single tool, rather than universally with the abundance of tools available to him that could have function for the same purpose (his dash > side-B as the example of this in 2.1) We're on the same page here, this is simply the point that seems to be lost in translation.
8) He also doesn't really get too much off of grabs, even if he gets them. He doesn't get much off of any single hit, really. His Dash alone can present that same presence in any match, it's just done through establishing it through game-play rather than visual feinting and such an intensely obvious stimulus zzzzzz.
His tools are weaker, though he couldn't exactly get a 'lot' off a single hit in 2.6, he could still get more then. Now, the process has extended and requires extensive diversity and development until it's intuitive from both parties ends, and the same applies to the neutral game. That's all, and it leaves him in a very good spot. Not good as in 'he's set for life' or 'beast character no matter what situation', but good as in he can grow from here, discovery AND construction.
Hope that clears some stuff up for ya. :D
Edit: Spelling like a boss
Kite91
Mada Mada Dane
Sonic vs ike and luigi. Any tips on the match up s
Move lots.
LOTS!
Gotta gotta keep on movin! *singing gives you power*
Seriously though, move so much that they will be hesitant to go for distance-grab approaches, and that will make them limit their own play into lunging hits or other forms of commitment. This of course implies that you have to establish that you'll be aggressive as well, so punish everything 'close' with fly-by-Fairs and Down-Bs through them, whenever you see their Shield come up. Abuse the fact that you can shield while moving at high speeds at a threatening distance where they can't, and shield anything they try while attacking at every hole you know you can take, and there WILL be holes since their mobility is limited in terms of instant-options outside of direct approaches.
This could sound kind of superfluous if you're afraid of getting hit and playing scared, but it's the best thing you can do against people like Marth/Squirt/etc too. Anyone who loves to play a bit of a distance game, but Melee-range style with speed, abuse your shield and punish at every turn. Like the way defensive-spacing players like Hugs with Samus in Melee will balls-to-the-walls charge at the opponent for the first bit of the first stock, establish yourself that you WILL be offensive, and they'll play accordingly, trying to bait you into hits that you can just Dash up > Shield, or throw out attacks to hold you off that you can just avoid and punish. Poke and persist, just like a lot of match-ups, but established aggression is where you'll win.
LOTS!
Gotta gotta keep on movin! *singing gives you power*
Seriously though, move so much that they will be hesitant to go for distance-grab approaches, and that will make them limit their own play into lunging hits or other forms of commitment. This of course implies that you have to establish that you'll be aggressive as well, so punish everything 'close' with fly-by-Fairs and Down-Bs through them, whenever you see their Shield come up. Abuse the fact that you can shield while moving at high speeds at a threatening distance where they can't, and shield anything they try while attacking at every hole you know you can take, and there WILL be holes since their mobility is limited in terms of instant-options outside of direct approaches.
This could sound kind of superfluous if you're afraid of getting hit and playing scared, but it's the best thing you can do against people like Marth/Squirt/etc too. Anyone who loves to play a bit of a distance game, but Melee-range style with speed, abuse your shield and punish at every turn. Like the way defensive-spacing players like Hugs with Samus in Melee will balls-to-the-walls charge at the opponent for the first bit of the first stock, establish yourself that you WILL be offensive, and they'll play accordingly, trying to bait you into hits that you can just Dash up > Shield, or throw out attacks to hold you off that you can just avoid and punish. Poke and persist, just like a lot of match-ups, but established aggression is where you'll win.
DireDrop
Smash Journeyman
This thread needs more vids. I hear a lot of interesting strategies/concepts/whatever here, but without a vid to see it in action it's hard to trust any of it.
If ppl make useful vids of a technique I will post it in the video thread. I don't post up ppl's random matches because it is not useful unless your one of the best/ the best in that MU.
Also, it's funny all the ppl who come in here to say that sonic is fine where he is in 2.6 don't even like or play/care about Sonic. (Darky and Nazo are exceptions however.)