Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Neptune Shiranui]

I usually sourspot fair, it seems more efficient for a kill that way for me.

 

[\Apples]

Fair's meteor doesn't kill. Your opponent would have to be really bad at jump cancelling Fair to die by it.

Follow up with Spring, sir. Fair's meteor certainly kills when they have some damage on them, which isn't really a big hurdle for Sonic. I get most of my kills from F-air.

Why not just use Fair? That already does what you're describing much better.

Nah man. They can be applied totally differently, do really have to explain that? I don't really feel like it.

 

[Alex Night]

I usually sourspot fair, it seems more efficient for a kill that way for me.

Yeah, Sonic's fair with the meteor is not a great killing tool against people that can be able to meteor cancel it and the ending lag on that move does not help him ensure that he can have a chance to stop them from recovering from the meteor. Sonic's Dair can be a true spike on the first couple of frames of the attack. (It might just be the first frame, but it is pretty early.)

My body is ready.


Also, I'm not really sure how you guys are having so much killing. Fair spikes are so easy to combo and KO with and his dair is hella good. Should bair kill? Mmm, I'd like to see it hit the opposite direction, forwards. That'd be tight. Jump through, hook behind you with bair that pokes, keep running with it and do it again and then finish him. Wow I am a genius. Think about that move for a minute.

The thing is this, Apples... It only lies on his ability to bait and punish his opponents, but his neutral game is relatively weak. Of course, that may be because we haven't had an accurate reading of what Sonic should be capable of because of how Sonic was presented in the previous versions. His design is fine, but his neutral game needs some attention as it is very difficult to utilize his moves along with his speed to be a sort of a rush down character as well. (i.e. Fox or Cpt. Falcon) The reason why some people are having so much trouble killing with Sonic is... Well, he does have trouble killing. Of course, Nazo and/or Darky Shiranui could argue with me about this and I know how good that they are with Sonic. (The bodies were hitting the floor. x_x ) I can honestly see some of their points and they did help me see that Sonic isn't unusable as I used to believe, but I still do believe that he does need some tweaking and maybe just one change. If Sonic is getting his air dodge out of his Up B taken out, then I want to see the same with ROB and Snake because I don't see it as acceptable that the PMBR does that to him and yet those two get to keep it.

Oh dear... I've done another rant and yet I'm still going to post this... Oh well, I'd rather not delete it now as I spent too much time writing it.

Oh, also that idea for Bair should never happen because we have Fair to make that effect with better results and not to mention that it comes out faster than Bair. It makes no sense...

 

[Nausicaa]

How is his neutral game weak? Have you not seen his Dash? lol
It's his conversion that's weak if anything, hence the bait and punish.

 

[DireDrop]

How is his neutral game weak? Have you not seen his Dash? lol
It's his conversion that's weak if anything, hence the bait and punish.

What's a conversion? You mean going from Dash dancing/footsies to actually attacking?

I thought the combined measure of a characters ability to dash around, as well as attack out of dashing, defined the strength of their neutral game. Sonic's dash is ridiculous, but he doesn't have anything safe and rewarding to do out of it.

 

[DireDrop]

For now, try to explore Blast Attack, it might surprise you how good it can be in some situations. Keep your hype up!

Sorry to dig a post up. Can we turn blast attack around? I figured it was possible because of b-reversals, and blast attack is just a variation on homing attack, but I can't seem to do it.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

I've been able to turn it around but the timing on it seems VERY strict, you have to do it really fast. However, it seems to be really good to use as a OOS option.

 

[DireDrop]

I've been able to turn it around but the timing on it seems VERY strict, you have to do it really fast. However, it seems to be really good to use as a OOT option.

More strict than regular reversals? That's intense. Oh well, time to tech skill.

 

[Nazo]

Follow up with Spring, sir.

Not all Fair meteor situations can be followed up by a spring, is the point I'm trying to make. With the amount of momentum Sonic carries with him when jumping across the stage, as you land a Fair meteor at the end of your string of attacks, your opponent is likely to meteor cancel before you can even finish the end animations of fair.

More strict than regular reversals? That's intense. Oh well, time to tech skill.

The timing seems the same as it was in brawl imo. But yes I agree, it makes for a good OoS option. Most situations where you could image doing a bair OoS should likely be reconsidered for using Blast attack OoS.

 

[\Apples]

The thing is this, Apples... It only lies on his ability to bait and punish his opponents, but his neutral game is relatively weak. Of course, that may be because we haven't had an accurate reading of what Sonic should be capable of because of how Sonic was presented in the previous versions. His design is fine, but his neutral game needs some attention as it is very difficult to utilize his moves along with his speed to be a sort of a rush down character as well. (i.e. Fox or Cpt. Falcon) The reason why some people are having so much trouble killing with Sonic is... Well, he does have trouble killing. Of course, Nazo and/or Darky Shiranui could argue with me about this and I know how good that they are with Sonic. (The bodies were hitting the floor. x_x ) I can honestly see some of their points and they did help me see that Sonic isn't unusable as I used to believe, but I still do believe that he does need some tweaking and maybe just one change. If Sonic is getting his air dodge out of his Up B taken out, then I want to see the same with ROB and Snake because I don't see it as acceptable that the PMBR does that to him and yet those two get to keep it.

Oh dear... I've done another rant and yet I'm still going to post this... Oh well, I'd rather not delete it now as I spent too much time writing it.

Oh, also that idea for Bair should never happen because we have Fair to make that effect with better results and not to mention that it comes out faster than Bair. It makes no sense...

That Bair idea was kiiind of a joke. It wouldn't be useless because he would be gaining a fair amount of ground on his opponent if he was travelling forward when he connected with the bair, it'd just allow him to control the flow of his combos better. But it wasn't a serious proposal by any means, I was mostly entertaining myself with reactions. Sorry.

As for the rest of your argument, I do actually agree he has trouble killing. But again, I don't think he should be easy to kill with. His neutral game is really good, it's hard to really tell HOW good, actually. I can see it needing a bit of a buff, but I can also see it having the potential to get out of hand as is, provided his metagame develops. I agree with you that the change he needs is equivalent to about one major change to one of his moves or stats. I don't think it should be in the kill power department though. Yes, that would make him a better character but it's not Sonic's character. I don't think a combo extender is what he's looking for either. I think his neutral game should be Falco good but without lasers, which is quite the tall task.

I'm with you on the airdodge to an extent. It feels weird that he can't do it anymore and it doesn't feel uniform with other characters. But then again, this is an asymmetrical game.

I'm not really sure what he needs, it's just a little something though. I still think what we have from him now though is really good and I think a lot of players (good and bad) underestimate him because they're stuck comparing him to previous versions.

Not all Fair meteor situations can be followed up by a spring, is the point I'm trying to make. With the amount of momentum Sonic carries with him when jumping across the stage, as you land a Fair meteor at the end of your string of attacks, your opponent is likely to meteor cancel before you can even finish the end animations of fair.

Side+B back to stage, you shouldn't have used your second jump so you can cancel it. Up+B at your discretion.

This actually would be a nice little change: not less landing lag, but less endlag on Sonic's Fair. Just a few frames would help a lot.

 

[Solharath]

Big House 3 happened. Ultra-salty about my pool being literally the most stacked thing in the history of stacked pools(Three seriously good Melee vets, including PewPewU, and Oro!?)), and getting the D from Falco stacking Sonic up like it's going out of style(and Ivysaur, but that's a different character for a different board).

Con: Took second to last in pools.
Pro: Didn't drop a single Money Match and made bank with Sonic.

So my tournament performance was lacking, but my Money Match/Serious Friendlies were stellar across the board. Serious Friendlies is a great place to learn and try out the crazy stuff, so I took games off metroid(he won more often), Anther(he won more often), and Oracle(I didn't lose a game, but remember, FRIENDLIES). Sonic just has to go deep and, really, I SD'd from having to commit so hard to a kill in like every single game(came back against Anther in a game and killed him with a string of 5 Uairs).

Sonic is... bad in ways that don't seem bad. He's functional, which is nice, but he is a balanced character in a game where imbalance and Special-cancels are what controls a match. Look at the current tier lists and placements we have right now - all characters with seriously good and seriously strong special-cancel games. And Mario, but well, he's so quick normally he doesn't really need cancelling and the boost to his fireball game is practically a cancel all on it's own.

All that said, Sonic is bad in the respect that nearly every other character is just that good, which is why he requires the buffs we're asking for.

Stuff happened. Wish I had a different pool so I could have shown off what I could do, but alas, it was not to be(also salty that my pool had only one stream match, even though someone here asked for me to be up on stream when each pool was supposed to have 2-3 streamed matches).

But hey, some vids will be up with my Roy and they'll be sexy. Just not Sonic-style sexy.

 

[DireDrop]

So my tournament performance was lacking, but my Money Match/Serious Friendlies were stellar across the board. Serious Friendlies is a great place to learn and try out the crazy stuff, so I took games off metroid(he won more often), Anther(he won more often), and Oracle(I didn't lose a game, but remember, FRIENDLIES). Sonic just has to go deep and, really, I SD'd from having to commit so hard to a kill in like every single game(came back against Anther in a game and killed him with a string of 5 Uairs).

Sonic is... bad in ways that don't seem bad. He's functional, which is nice, but he is a balanced character in a game where imbalance and Special-cancels are what controls a match. Look at the current tier lists and placements we have right now - all characters with seriously good and seriously strong special-cancel games. And Mario, but well, he's so quick normally he doesn't really need cancelling and the boost to his fireball game is practically a cancel all on it's own.

All that said, Sonic is bad in the respect that nearly every other character is just that good, which is why he requires the buffs we're asking for.

I so wish I could have gone to Big House. Glad to hear it was awesome.

I always thought U-Air was a solid ariel. Not a kill move, but a strong move. I think it fits his move set really well as it is.

I felt like your point about how balanced Sonic is relative to top tier characters needs to be reiterated. It's so true! Sonic is a cool character right now but doesn't have the tools to compete with a well played Fox/Falco/whatever. I feel like a lot of people miss this. Sorry to hear you couldn't get any vids. There's not enough 2.6b Sonic footage out there right now.

 

[DireDrop]

Ok, last post for a while cuz I've been going a bit overboard.

I'm 99% positive you CANNOT turn blast attack around, like a B-reversal. What I've found I can do though, is turn Sonic around after landing a homing attack/blast attack. My guess is that when people have turned blast attack around, it's been after landing one. It would be great if someone could check me on this. Blast attack could be great, especially oos, but if we can't turn it around it's just that much more limited.

 

[Nazo]

You can turn it around. I've done it plenty of times OoS during tournaments/smashfests; you don't have to hit someone previous to doing a B-reversal. You're mistiming it.

 

[DireDrop]

Are there any vids of you?

 

[Nazo]

Nope.

http://youtu.be/i1SsRr3waUE

Sonic does a b-reversal blast attack OoS at 3:05. It wasn't successful, but I was trying to see if it was possible; it is.

 

[DireDrop]

That was definitely a homing attack, not a blast attack. The move came out much too slow to be a blast attack, and the angle wasn't the same as a blast attack.

 

[Nazo]

Ha! Guess I wasn't paying attention; I don't feel like going through videos to find more rare moments of it happening. Oh well, My point still stands, it's possible. Choose to believe it or not.

 

[DireDrop]

Well, if evidence that you can turn blast attack around doesn't surface, granting Sonic that ability would be an awesome buff.

 

[Nazo]

I'll try and get footage of it next time I go to a smash fest.

 

[Solharath]

When I'm on point I use reverse blast attack to recover from an edgeguard like, all the time. It's possible.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

How fast do you have to do it exactly? Because I've been trying in 1/4 training and I still don't seem to get it...

 

[Solharath]

I dunno man, flick the stick, then press B, then press A. You can't reverse blast attack after you've already started the attack.

 

[SpiderMad]

You b-reverse the homing attack (like you would with Marth's), then you press A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HwUqk5TWNY

 

[Nazo]

Thank you SpiderMad; easiest way to explain it.

 

[Ariyo]

How do you guys feel fighting fox and falco? Going to an upcoming tournament in which i hope to go mostly Sonic with. And I'm pretty sure the competition will be a lot of spacies. Any tips on fighting them? Specifically campy ones?

 

[Nazo]

I have no tips on fighting campy Spacies, lol. But I usually try my best to get a grab, or a side-B into JCG and combo/chain grab them until they're offstage, then mash B like crazy. Side-B OoS is good for escaping spacie pressure. Also, don't be too obvious with homing attack, Fox/Falco utilt easily beats it out, as well as Usmash.

To simplify, try to get them offstage as soon as possible. Homing Attack will do the rest for you.

 

[GHNeko]

Against Falco, yeah. Not so much Fox, as Firefox start up beats/trades with HA, so it'd be wiser to get more creative with your Fox gimps.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Nair can beat startup firefox.

 

[Nazo]

Against Falco, yeah. Not so much Fox, as Firefox start up beats/trades with HA, so it'd be wiser to get more creative with your Fox gimps.

If you fastfall after dragging Fox offstage with Side-B, you should be able to hit him with homing attack during his fire fox, so long as you hit him from the bottom from what I've experienced.

But to be safe, just go for a Nair or fair.

 

[GHNeko]

Forgot that Firefox doesnt have a hitbox on the bottom haha.

Honestly, I typically just trade with Dair. It probably has the most priority out of his aerials, or at least is way up on the list. The angle Dair hits at is pretty good.

 

[Solharath]

If you hit Fox with SideB, he can CC and shine immediately until high percentages..

Something to keep in mind. I've had it happen all too often.

 

[DireDrop]

I finally understand all this B-reversal nonsense. I didn't realize there were two way to reverse a B attack. The first way is to flick the stick BEFORE you do the B attack. The second way is to flick it AFTER. In PM/Brawl, both ways work, but only the first way works in Melee.

I dunno man, flick the stick, then press B, then press A. You can't reverse blast attack after you've already started the attack.

I had only been trying to do the reversal by flicking the stick AFTER pushing B, which is why I was having no success. But as SpiderMad pointed out...

You b-reverse the homing attack (like you would with Marth's), then you press A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HwUqk5TWNY

... it works if you do it the "Melee" way. However, you can't do it "like you would with Marth's". With Marth (and most of the cast) you can do it both ways. If you run and jump, flick the stick in the opposite direction, then push B, Marth retains his current momentum and does his neutral B in the opposite direction. This is how SpiderMad reversed Sonic's Blast Attack in the vid. However, if you run and jump, then push B, then flick the stick, Marth's momentum is suddenly reversed and he does a neutral B in the opposite direction.

So Sonic can reverse blast attack. Just not the way I thought.

I think it would be better for Sonic if he could reverse his blast attack by flicking the stick after pushing B. This way, we could jump OOS, push B, flick the stick to reverse the attack, then push A/Z/C-stick immediately after to do the blast attack. I'm pretty sure this would be much faster than jumping OOS, flicking the stick (and taking the extra few frames to allow the stick to return to it's neutral position) then pushing B, then pushing A/Z/C-stick. The first way gets the attack out faster.

Thanks for the vids/discussion guys. I learned a lot!

 

[SpiderMad]

I finally understand all this B-reversal nonsense. I didn't realize there were two way to reverse a B attack. The first way is to flick the stick BEFORE you do the B attack. The second way is to flick it AFTER. In PM/Brawl, both ways work, but only the first way works in Melee.

... it works if you do it the "Melee" way. However, you can't do it "like you would with Marth's". With Marth (and most of the cast) you can do it both ways. If you run and jump, flick the stick in the opposite direction, then push B, Marth retains his current momentum and does his neutral B in the opposite direction. This is how SpiderMad reversed Sonic's Blast Attack in the vid. However, if you run and jump, then push B, then flick the stick, Marth's momentum is suddenly reversed and he does a neutral B in the opposite direction.

Thanks for the vids/discussion guys. I learned a lot!

I'm not qualified yet to explain these weird things but

There's B-reverse, which is in Melee and Brawl and demonstrated in the Sonic video.
Then there's B-reversing a B-reverse which is in only in Brawl and only for certain moves (or at least gives off the effect of the momentum switch, known as Wavebouncing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0sqGLVvFEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_iPK38R1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZJm0Wi5O2-U#t=72

It does seem you cannot Wavebounce Homing Attack (or the quick cancellation of it into Blast Attack).
You indeed can Wavebounce Marth's Neutral-B, reversing the momentum in the opposite direction you were traveling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aAw6bTOUyXg#t=72

Wavebouncing requires two flicks (reverse of a B-reverse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v5cy6uqC0Os#t=103

Certain things in Brawl couldn't be wavebounced (or even b-reversed?), and were made able to in P:M: such as Diddy's Banana pull. Adding the possibility of Wavebounce homing attack/blast attack might be possible, but with what positive or detrimental effects I don't know.

 

[Solharath]

Didn't realize you were looking for a wavebounce. Mad props to SpiderMad for explaining it well enough and better than I could. Wavebounce HA/BA... weird idea. Very weird.

Wouldn't mind it as a new tool, though.

 

[DireDrop]

Very interesting stuff. I can't do this wavebouncing thing. I can reverse the momentum and direction of a B move, but not just the momentum. That's some tricky tech skill. Allowing homing attack to be wavebounced (or whatever this stuff is called) would probably have no effect other than allowing us to input the move differently since homing attack already kills all of Sonic's momentum. IMO, being able to flick after pushing B would allow us to execute a Blast attack in the opposite direction OOS faster.

 

[Solharath]

Geez I miss being able to do this more than anything else.

And that was Demo 1.0, I think.

 

[Alex Night]

Sonic's just closing his eyes for a split second in the HA ball thinking, "Speed... I am Speed..."

 

[GHNeko]

So who else uses Dair for edgeguarding?

 

[GMaster171]

(raises hand)

dair is fun.

sonic is fun