Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[DireDrop]

I miss sonic. ;_;

How do you miss him? He got nerfed, not deleted from the roster. Or do you miss 2.5 Sonic?

 

[GHNeko]

I can't play characters whom i don't find fun anymore hahaha.

I enjoyed 2.5 sonic more because he had the toolset to be more rushdown oriented. I was alot more moderate in my freedom to spin vs wizzy and made up for it in other ways.

2.6 sonic is too brawl for me ie bait and punish and hit and run.

It's a chore for me personally and the fun factor is gone.

 

[DireDrop]

I thought I could use 2.6 Sonic just as well as 2.5. I was wrong. He's more Brawl now than Melee. His moves are weak and laggy.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I can't play characters whom i don't find fun anymore hahaha.

I enjoyed 2.5 sonic more because he had the toolset to be more rushdown oriented. I was alot more moderate in my freedom to spin vs wizzy and made up for it in other ways.

2.6 sonic is too brawl for me ie bait and punish and hit and run.

It's a chore for me personally and the fun factor is gone.

Yea, he really isn't fun anymore.

They need to buff his fun factor like with they did with Lucas.

 

[RPGsFTW]

His bait and punish game also seems to be weak because securing the kills just never truly feels possible. Why can't his Nair at least kill? It is absurd thinking that I might only be able to kill someone around 100% IF I can land a Fsmash.

 

[\Apples]

I love 2.6 Sonic. He feels like a real character now, not completely absurd like before and because of that I think he's more fun than he's ever been, and the game is 100x better as a whole. With a neutral game like his, he should have low priority and either struggle to punish hard via combos or struggle to secure the kills. You've gotta get creative with him to make it happen and that's exactly how he should play. I think his current design is the most brilliant yet, but he still needs some tuning.

 

[JayMan-X]

People who played against 2.1-2.5 Sonic: Omg Sonic is so much better now hes not annoying anymore, good job PM
Sonic Mains: Omg Sonic sucks he cant kill now, he isnt fun anymore and is soo restricted, pls fix

 

[\Apples]

I actually never played against much Sonic pre-2.6. I was the only person in my playgroup that even touched him, and even I hated him. I felt like I was being unfair playing him. He had such a clear advantage over much of the cast, the game was better without him.

 

[DireDrop]

Shouldn't there be some sort of news soon? Big House is this weekend. I have a feeling we'll hear more about the next update after that.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I love 2.6 Sonic. He feels like a real character now, not completely absurd like before and because of that I think he's more fun than he's ever been, and the game is 100x better as a whole. With a neutral game like his, he should have low priority and either struggle to punish hard via combos or struggle to secure the kills. You've gotta get creative with him to make it happen and that's exactly how he should play. I think his current design is the most brilliant yet, but he still needs some tuning.

Yeah, but the other characters who move and function similar, like Fox or maybe Meta Knight, also have a safe neutral game, stupid speeds to bait and punish with, but they can kill MUCH MUCH easier than Sonic can. Why is it ok for Sonic to be that much weaker than them in that category? I mean, he doesn't have a single reliable killing move now. And what does he have over those two example characters? Maybe his weight, but that is about it...

 

[foxygrandpa]

Sonic's smash attack need to be majorly nerfed. He is still kinda special heavy, so a player should get a reward for getting in a good smash attack. He still lacks in aerial finshers though. In my opinion dair should be gone completely, and the current fair into dair. The, a new, powerful attack should be implemented for him.

 

[GHNeko]

Sonic's smash attack need to be majorly nerfed.

i'm not following this

He is still kinda special heavy, so a player should get a reward for getting in a good smash attack.

or this at all.


can you elaborate.

especially that first once since fsmash was nerfed. usmash isnt all that great, and dsmash was never great lol.

 

[Kally Wally]

I think he meant to say "buffed"...?

 

[GHNeko]

I'm hoping that to, but I'm not making any assumptions.

 

[DireDrop]

can you elaborate.

especially that first once since fsmash was nerfed. usmash isnt all that great, and dsmash was never great lol.

I agree that none of his smashes are very good. FSmash is too slow (IRONY!) to use reliably, and UPSmash...is just lousy, but down smash is actually useable.

 

[GHNeko]

Dsmash has always been only "good" in my book.

Good start up and Okay kill power that hits in on both sides with meh cooldown. nothing spectacular.

 

[batistabus]

I'm all for Sonic having a below-average recovery. If this were Melee with just Sonic added, his recovery might be fine as is, but with so many different powerful threats to deal with in PM, I think there's an argument for it being too weak. Here are some tweaks I think could add a little something more to work with.

1. If Homing Attack were to have a set trajectory, extended speed, and extended length (basically making it always a modified Blast Attack), Sonic would be able to reliably bounce off the stage for batter recovery positioning. It might help if you could act out of the "hit wall" animation faster. Right now, this is slightly possible, with the exception that the range on side-b is not very far, and you have a chance of zooming in the general vicinity of your opponent.

2. Make the recovery somewhat like Diddy Kong's. Sonic would have the ability to "charge" and angle the attack, giving him more horizontal cover and more options for release. I'm not sure if it would be better to have the charge increase distance (like Diddy), be required for the move (Fox/Falco), or just be a stalling ability. The charge animation would look something like this.



Or as seen in the games, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WmdseeZBiz4#t=26

2.5 options like air-dodge out of up-b or side-b > up b are silly imo. If his recovery is to be buffed, I would not like to see those return. Any buffs, if implemented, should be minor.

 

[DireDrop]

You mean a regular wall jump? He can do that already, just not after Up B.

 

[batistabus]

You're right...my bad. I was mixing up thoughts.

 

[Alex Night]

I love 2.6 Sonic. He feels like a real character now, not completely absurd like before and because of that I think he's more fun than he's ever been, and the game is 100x better as a whole. With a neutral game like his, he should have low priority and either struggle to punish hard via combos or struggle to secure the kills. You've gotta get creative with him to make it happen and that's exactly how he should play. I think his current design is the most brilliant yet, but he still needs some tuning.

I actually never played against much Sonic pre-2.6. I was the only person in my playgroup that even touched him, and even I hated him. I felt like I was being unfair playing him. He had such a clear advantage over much of the cast, the game was better without him.

Sonic's smash attack need to be majorly nerfed. He is still kinda special heavy, so a player should get a reward for getting in a good smash attack. He still lacks in aerial finshers though. In my opinion dair should be gone completely, and the current fair into dair. The, a new, powerful attack should be implemented for him.

Must..Resist...RANT!

 

[\Apples]

Yeah, but the other characters who move and function similar, like Fox or maybe Meta Knight, also have a safe neutral game, stupid speeds to bait and punish with, but they can kill MUCH MUCH easier than Sonic can. Why is it ok for Sonic to be that much weaker than them in that category? I mean, he doesn't have a single reliable killing move now. And what does he have over those two example characters? Maybe his weight, but that is about it...

I mean, those characters could also use a bit of toning down. I didn't really feel like bringing up power creep...

But basically, it's not. I think Sonic's neutral game should be even better than it is via speed, but for his punish strength to remain relatively weak. If his neutral game is strong enough, he would rely on baiting big openings in order to land KOs.

Must..Resist...RANT!

I really wouldn't mind. I'm openly admitting here that I, like many others, have been depraved of Sonic through the majority of the life of this game because nobody plays him at all in my region. I'm just really getting more familiar with him.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Must..Resist...RANT!

I meant to say buffed, it was late and I was tired. Sonic's ground game is poor when he isn't using b moves, and I think a sonic player should be rewarded for hitting with one of his smashes.

 

[JayMan-X]

2. Make the recovery somewhat like Diddy Kong's. Sonic would have the ability to "charge" and angle the attack, giving him more horizontal cover and more options for release. I'm not sure if it would be better to have the charge increase distance (like Diddy), be required for the move (Fox/Falco), or just be a stalling ability. The charge animation would look something like this.



Or as seen in the games, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WmdseeZBiz4#t=26

2.5 options like air-dodge out of up-b or side-b > up b are silly imo. If his recovery is to be buffed, I would not like to see those return. Any buffs, if implemented, should be minor.

I really, really like this idea. Could be a cool combo tool too, kinda like Charizard's down B is.

I meant to say buffed, it was late and I was tired. Sonic's ground game is poor when he isn't using b moves, and I think a sonic player should be rewarded for hitting with one of his smashes.

Instead of give him better smash attacks, why not try fix the real reasons why "Sonic's ground game is poor outside of B moves", like giving him a better Up Air, or a better Nair that has kill power or combo potential?

 

[foxygrandpa]

I really, really like this idea. Could be a cool combo tool too, kinda like Charizard's down B is.



Instead of give him better smash attacks, why not try fix the real reasons why "Sonic's ground game is poor outside of B moves", like giving him a better Up Air, or a better Nair that has kill power or combo potential?

That would be awesome. I don't like sonics aerials, except nair and fair. Dair is difficult to use practically, bair and uair are kinda hard to land and still not much of a reward. I still think his smash attacks need a buff too though. What if his usmash actually killed upward and looked something like lucas' utilt? That would be hella cool to combo with b attacks and air juggling into a finishing hit. If either his dsmash or fsmash was better, he could get rewarded for attacks that are seriously difficult to implement with his current gameplay.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Maybe it's just me, or maybe no because no one ever uses it, but Sonic's Dsmash seems to be unnecessarily short-ranged. I'm pretty sure Mario's legs are not longer than Sonic's, so why is Mario's Dsmash bigger? Or why does it feel much bigger than Sonic's?

Realistically, what I'm getting at by mentioning his Dsmash is that Sonic just doesn't seem to have any ranged attacks that deal good knockback that aren't his tilts (which I would actually say are very nice, considering the rest of his weak movepool). He does seem too much like vBrawl Sonic to me in that you try really, REALLY hard to save attacks like Bair to kill, and even when you think you should be able to get the kill with it, you can't, because it is just THAT weak.

I understand that fast characters in fighting games tend to just be that, fast, with no other real positives going for them, but I'm pretty sure that they often aren't as disgustingly weak as a whole, like Sonic. I almost feel like his Nair having killing power again (and why shouldn't it) would be enough for me to deal with the rest of his garbage, though he shouldn't have to rely on JUST that one move.

 

[Nazo]

Bair should kill

 

[DireDrop]

Bair should kill

Hey... you guys... I think he might be on to something here.

 

[GHNeko]

I wish his throw game was far more tech chase oriented. DI traps and good damage building tech chase throws.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Up-air is still pretty good for star-ko'ing.

 

[GHNeko]

It's okay imo.

It used to be good but lol.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Up-air is still pretty good for star-ko'ing.

The thing is, people DI it. Even when I get people near the top of the screen and I Up-B chase into Uair, it often doesn't kill them. It's not Fox's Uair for sure.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Mario's Dsmash has longer ranger due to the fact of Mario moving his whole body horizontally during the animation, Sonic mostly moves his legs during his attack.

That being said, both fsmash and dsmash have some deceptive range, studying when and how to use that surprisingly good range is a key to find how useful they are. An example is how good sonic's dash speed and dsmash's small startup can be used to punish missed techs, it is of course, only one of the many options he has in that situation.

Either way, I'm here to say some stuff. You can be sure that the PMBR is analyzing all the feedback regarding 2.6b Sonic and we are coming to some good conclusions. First one is, despite his obvious shortcomings Sonic does now work as a real character, this gives us a much better base to improve and work on while maintaining his current playstyle. What I can say is that Roy and alternate costumes are not the only good news about the next version, you will, finally be rewarded for putting time into this character, and I am really happy for being able to say that.

Now, talking for myself here, the recently proposed changes are not yet complete, but I'm liking them a lot as a player. Great sonic players such as Sethlon are working on playtesting and constant feedback as ever to ensure that Sonic will be fun to play and balanced at high level. While the changelist is not extensive as many times before, they are meaningful and do well at making his playstyle more effective.

For now, try to explore Blast Attack, it might surprise you how good it can be in some situations. Keep your hype up!

 

[Burnsy]

It's not Fox's Uair for sure.

Thank goodness.

 

[DireDrop]

Mario's Dsmash has longer ranger due to the fact of Mario moving his whole body horizontally during the animation, Sonic mostly moves his legs during his attack.

That being said, both fsmash and dsmash have some deceptive range, studying when and how to use that surprisingly good range is a key to find how useful they are. An example is how good sonic's dash speed and dsmash's small startup can be used to punish missed techs, it is of course, only one of the many options he has in that situation.

Either way, I'm here to say some stuff. You can be sure that the PMBR is analyzing all the feedback regarding 2.6b Sonic and we are coming to some good conclusions. First one is, despite his obvious shortcomings Sonic does now work as a real character, this gives us a much better base to improve and work on while maintaining his current playstyle. What I can say is that Roy and alternate costumes are not the only good news about the next version, you will, finally be rewarded for putting time into this character, and I am really happy for being able to say that.

Now, talking for myself here, the recently proposed changes are not yet complete, but I'm liking them a lot as a player. Great sonic players such as Sethlon are working on playtesting and constant feedback as ever to ensure that Sonic will be fun to play and balanced at high level. While the changelist is not extensive as many times before, they are meaningful and do well at making his playstyle more effective.

For now, try to explore Blast Attack, it might surprise you how good it can be in some situations. Keep your hype up!

I totally called this. I knew the PMBR were paying close attention to us ! I just read on Reddit that there's a big announcement tomorrow? I'm so looking forward to it.

 

[Alex Night]

I totally called this. I knew the PMBR were paying close attention to us ! I just read on Reddit that there's a big announcement tomorrow? I'm so looking forward to it.

Yes, there is going to be an announcement of some kind tomorrow around 2 PM. Just stay tuned after the Grand Finals of Project M for Big House 3 and we might see what it is.

 

[DireDrop]

They've been hinting at something super big for, what feels like, an eternity. I'm trying to think of what could be so big. I always thought finishing the roster and perfectly emulating Melee physics was the best they could do.

 

[\Apples]

My body is ready.

Also, I'm not really sure how you guys are having so much killing. Fair spikes are so easy to combo and KO with and his dair is hella good. Should bair kill? Mmm, I'd like to see it hit the opposite direction, forwards. That'd be tight. Jump through, hook behind you with bair that pokes, keep running with it and do it again and then finish him. Wow I am a genius. Think about that move for a minute.

 

[DireDrop]

My body is ready.

Also, I'm not really sure how you guys are having so much killing. Fair spikes are so easy to combo and KO with and his dair is hella good. Should bair kill? Mmm, I'd like to see it hit the opposite direction, forwards. That'd be tight. Jump through, hook behind you with bair that pokes, keep running with it and do it again and then finish him. Wow I am a genius. Think about that move for a minute.

Why not just use Fair? That already does what you're describing much better.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm glad the PM and I think alike on this one. Common, but good to have it spelled out like that ahead of time regarding purpose and directional.
FireBall Stars knows what's up. The 'Sonic is cool in 2.6' haters just gonna hate.
Though who knows what this actually means for Sonic. Don't mess him up Sethlon!

 

[Nazo]

Fair's meteor doesn't kill. Your opponent would have to be really bad at jump cancelling Fair to die by it.