Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[DireDrop]

That is true; you won't always grab the ledge with Wavedash ledge-hogging. It can be quite... FATAL! Anyways, I want to see all of these techniques that people say Sonic can do with his amazing speed at high level play. I am planning to try it out with some pre-tournament friendlies a week before WHOBO 5.

Also, I did some experimenting in training with Sonic vs Jigglypuff. Jiggs can CC Sonic's Dtilt up to 84% and his Utilt up to 68%...

I wanna see vids too. There's the smallest chance I might get to record matches this weekend to put up. Very small chance though... The two things I do that I don't see in other vids is this side-b ledge grab thing, and combing blast attack into itself 3-4 times and finishing with a Fair. This character is still super fun, just too weak IMO.

(84% WTF!?)

 

[Ariyo]

I get the feeling that people that are saying Sonic is fine havent put hours of practice into learning this new Sonic to find that he seriously kinda sucks. Or just playing people that don't know a penny about the matchup.
I've found out from the Sonic's I've played against and playing him myself, that being patient against him is GGs. With his lack of priority, it is really simple to stuff whatever he throws out. Fair is probably his best spacing tool but he's not marth. Run at him with a sex kick and problem solved. His grab sucks so he has to overwork himself just to get one, and as long as youre not a spacie, not much is gonna happen from one. Hell, even if you are a spacie, uthrow is all Sonic can do because of the dthrow nerf. But a spacie doesnt have a reason to be grabbed by Sonic in the first place. He might have the fastest running speed, but all that does for him currently is help him run away. I would assume that the players coming from Melee realize that just because a character moves fast, they arent good. Just to note, Pichu is ranked 6th out of 26 characters to have the fastest running speed. Yet still trash tier.

 

[DireDrop]

Wow, the Sonic boards just got real.

Nazo, is this you getting streamed on Twitch right now?

http://www.twitch.tv/azprojectmelee

 

[DireDrop]

I wanna see vids too. There's the smallest chance I might get to record matches this weekend to put up. Very small chance though... The two things I do that I don't see in other vids is this side-b ledge grab thing, and combing blast attack into itself 3-4 times and finishing with a Fair.

Never mind! Nazo's totally doing all the stuff I just mentioned. Nazo your Sonic is so tight! I hope we can get vids of this stuff here. There were some utterly brutal Combos in that tourney. A couple 0% to deaths strings that are combo video worthy.

 

[Nazo]

Oh, yea that's me. I got bodied by Marth but thank you for your compliment.

And yes, the matches will be uploaded to youtube.

 

[Alex Night]

I get the feeling that people that are saying Sonic is fine havent put hours of practice into learning this new Sonic to find that he seriously kinda sucks. Or just playing people that don't know a penny about the matchup.
I've found out from the Sonic's I've played against and playing him myself, that being patient against him is GGs. With his lack of priority, it is really simple to stuff whatever he throws out. Fair is probably his best spacing tool but he's not marth. Run at him with a sex kick and problem solved. His grab sucks so he has to overwork himself just to get one, and as long as youre not a spacie, not much is gonna happen from one. Hell, even if you are a spacie, uthrow is all Sonic can do because of the dthrow nerf. But a spacie doesnt have a reason to be grabbed by Sonic in the first place. He might have the fastest running speed, but all that does for him currently is help him run away. I would assume that the players coming from Melee realize that just because a character moves fast, they arent good. Just to note, Pichu is ranked 6th out of 26 characters to have the fastest running speed. Yet still trash tier.

Wait, did they really nerf his throws too? I don't see anything about that on the changelist...

But yeah, patience is one of the keys to beat Sonic in Project M right now. Honestly though, that logic of the fast = not good theory doesn't really work. Cpt. Falcon is one of the fastest characters with Sonic outrunning him and yet he is one of the most dangerous Melee characters if handled correctly.

 

[GMaster171]

It's not as fast as Brawl ledge grabbing, but it's very fast! I highly recommend trying it out. If you're relatively far away from the ledge, say the middle of Green Greens, you can just slam on the control stick to run to the ledge, then slam right back and hit B, you'll be on that ledge super fast! I mean... the alternative option is to run almost to the ledge, then crouch cancel -> turn around -> Wave dash backwards. That's slower and much more difficult to execute. It's new technology that could give us a bit of an edge over the rest of the cast.

Just thought I'd pop in and remind you guys of RAR. RAR->ledge grab and RAR wavedash onto the ledge are both very fast and easy options (probably the fastest option he has, unless Im mistaken of his side-b)

 

[foxygrandpa]

I just think that if he had a better killing aerial, he would be fine. his side b is still good for attacking and recovering. His speed is obviously good enough. He just needs more killing potential, and then he would be solid.

 

[Alex Night]

Just thought I'd pop in and remind you guys of RAR. RAR->ledge grab and RAR wavedash onto the ledge are both very fast and easy options (probably the fastest option he has, unless Im mistaken of his side-b)

The RAR only seems good for the ledgehogs now as you don't have as much air momentum in Project M as you do in Brawl. Again, wavedashing off the ledge for an attempt to grab it is not reliable as it sounds. It is a fast option, but it certainly is not an easy option for Sonic even after hours of practice.

It's not as fast as Brawl ledge grabbing, but it's very fast! I highly recommend trying it out. If you're relatively far away from the ledge, say the middle of Green Greens, you can just slam on the control stick to run to the ledge, then slam right back and hit B, you'll be on that ledge super fast! I mean... the alternative option is to run almost to the ledge, then crouch cancel -> turn around -> Wave dash backwards. That's slower and much more difficult to execute. It's new technology that could give us a bit of an edge over the rest of the cast.

Also, I was about to write about how the Side B ledgehog trick was useless until I caught myself on what I did wrong, which that I wasn't holding down the B button when I should've. It is pretty fast and somewhat easy to do. Although it doesn't have that Instant edgehog that Sonic had in Brawl, it is the overall better option to edgehog than RAR Wavedash edgehog.

I just think that if he had a better killing aerial, he would be fine. his side b is still good for attacking and recovering. His speed is obviously good enough. He just needs more killing potential, and then he would be solid.

He did have something like that. It was called the Nair Spine Attack in 2.5b. lol

 

[DireDrop]

Also, I was about to write about how the Side B ledgehog trick was useless until I caught myself on what I did wrong, which that I wasn't holding down the B button when I should've. It is pretty fast and somewhat easy to do. Although it doesn't have that Instant edgehog that Sonic had in Brawl, it is the overall better option to edgehog than RAR Wavedash edgehog.

Ya you gotta hold B. I believe the reason the ledge grab isn't immediate is because of the delay the PMBR put in that prevents Sonic from immediately Jump canceling side b. If that's true, than I definitely want to see that delay go. It would make side b a much stronger pressure option, he would be able to land jump cancelled grabs out of it with much more consistency, and this ledge grabbing trick would be that much better. Having a delay on the jump cancel-ability of side B is like putting a delay on the jump cancel-ability of Fox's Shine.

 

[cmart]

No, ledgegrabbing and jumpcanceling are two separate things, both in gameplay and in code.

Also, does no one know Leelue's trick for edgehogging? You can just pivot from a run to grab the ledge. Run at it, crouch and turn around, and you'll slide onto the ledge. Faster than wavedashing.

 

[Nausicaa]

^ I pretty sure that was dubbed the 'PC Grab' in Melee.

I've found out from the Sonic's I've played against and playing him myself, that being patient against him is GGs. With his lack of priority, it is really simple to stuff whatever he throws out. Fair is probably his best spacing tool but he's not marth. Run at him with a sex kick and problem solved. His grab sucks so he has to overwork himself just to get one, and as long as youre not a spacie, not much is gonna happen from one. Hell, even if you are a spacie, uthrow is all Sonic can do because of the dthrow nerf. But a spacie doesnt have a reason to be grabbed by Sonic in the first place. He might have the fastest running speed, but all that does for him currently is help him run away. I would assume that the players coming from Melee realize that just because a character moves fast, they arent good. Just to note, Pichu is ranked 6th out of 26 characters to have the fastest running speed. Yet still trash tier.

Throw anything out and Sonic will punish you for it.
The same goes both ways.
#1, Sonic shouldn't be throwing anything out. He doesn't have to. Especially F-Air.
This is why people thought he was bad in 2.1, when he was one of the best in the game even then.

Stop limited play and trying to do things that aren't working, and work with what the character has to offer.
AKA, DD for 2 hours, who cares. Ever watch a good Falcon? They don't ATTACK, they can just sit there. Sonic might not get as much out of a single hit Falcon-style, but he can 'sit there' WAY better than he ever could. It's not like Down-B is terrible either.

Learn to play the character, nobody had the patience to play AS Sonic in 2.1, despite having as linearly broken a tool as he did in 2.5, and nobody bothered to flush out the dynamics of the character to DATE, because nobody needed to. Now, people need to, but they're complaining.
If you think Sonic is bad at this stage of development (NOT DEVELOPED AT ALL), then you're just being silly.
100%

 

[Alex Night]

Ya you gotta hold B. I believe the reason the ledge grab isn't immediate is because of the delay the PMBR put in that prevents Sonic from immediately Jump canceling side b. If that's true, than I definitely want to see that delay go. It would make side b a much stronger pressure option, he would be able to land jump cancelled grabs out of it with much more consistency, and this ledge grabbing trick would be that much better. Having a delay on the jump cancel-ability of side B is like putting a delay on the jump cancel-ability of Fox's Shine.

That... Actually doesn't sound like a very drastic change. All the PMBR need to do with Sonic is just undo the later delay jump cancel window for Side B along with just a minor buff on Nair and Sonic will be fine. (Let's agree to disagree.)

No, ledgegrabbing and jumpcanceling are two separate things, both in gameplay and in code.

Also, does no one know Leelue's trick for edgehogging? You can just pivot from a run to grab the ledge. Run at it, crouch and turn around, and you'll slide onto the ledge. Faster than wavedashing.

It's the Koopa King! Anyways, I just tried out that trick you mentioned for like 10 minutes in training. I will admit that it is a nice trick, but I kinda feel like Side B ledgehog is just as fast and is easier to accomplish. In short, I prefer to work smarter and not harder when it comes to grabbing the ledge quickly from your foes with Sonic.

 

[DireDrop]

That... Actually doesn't sound like a very drastic change. All the PMBR need to do with Sonic is just undo the later delay jump cancel window for Side B along with just a minor buff on Nair and Sonic will be fine. (Let's agree to disagree.)

Are we disagreeing? That sounds like an excellent buff. Its exactly what I would do.

 

[Alex Night]

Are we disagreeing? That sounds like an excellent buff. Its exactly what I would do.

Of course not, I'm not disagreeing with you. That's just for those who might not agree with that change.

^ I pretty sure that was dubbed the 'PC Grab' in Melee.




Throw anything out and Sonic will punish you for it.
The same goes both ways.
#1, Sonic shouldn't be throwing anything out. He doesn't have to. Especially F-Air.
This is why people thought he was bad in 2.1, when he was one of the best in the game even then.

Stop limited play and trying to do things that aren't working, and work with what the character has to offer.
AKA, DD for 2 hours, who cares. Ever watch a good Falcon? They don't ATTACK, they can just sit there. Sonic might not get as much out of a single hit Falcon-style, but he can 'sit there' WAY better than he ever could. It's not like Down-B is terrible either.

Learn to play the character, nobody had the patience to play AS Sonic in 2.1, despite having as linearly broken a tool as he did in 2.5, and nobody bothered to flush out the dynamics of the character to DATE, because nobody needed to. Now, people need to, but they're complaining.
If you think Sonic is bad at this stage of development (NOT DEVELOPED AT ALL), then you're just being silly.

100%

You speak as if none of us even know how to play as Sonic... >.>

 

[cmart]

Fair enough @ both Naus and Alex.

 

[Nausicaa]

You speak as if none of us even know how to play as Sonic... >.>

Your post here implies you may have missed the point entirely. <.<

 

[Alex Night]

Your post here implies you may have missed the point entirely. <.<

Sonic's good at reaction with his speed, but being proactive needs work. It's kind of a problem when Sonic's moves like uptilt and dtilt can be CC'd by Jigglypuff up to 84% and being able to combo is one of the things that Sonic needs to rack up percentage.

Disagree with me if you wish, but the rest of the roster can be able to play the patient game better than Sonic. I also don't see how Sonic can sit there way better than Cpt. Falcon when Falcon is the second fastest and he is only slower than Sonic by 15 milliseconds. (I calculated in training mode by what time they leave the right ledge of FD from the left edge.) It's a nice edge for Sonic to be sure, but Falcon can be just as tricky as Sonic with his speed and agility.

 

[Nausicaa]

By sit there effectively, I'm talking about how the position benefits him. Not as in what he can do from there in terms of punishing the opponent trying something, but in terms of what he can make the opponent try given he has more options than simply Grab + SH Aerials. Down-B + Side-B give Sonic a dynamic from the neutral position that opponents have to consider, that they don't have to consider at all with Falcon.
It's like his version of Nair-Planes.

That's arbitrary semantics though.

Sonic doesn't have a gap to close. If there's a gap, it's from the opponents end that something needs to be done.
Nothing more needs to be said, as that is all that matters.

 

[Wizzrobe]

By sit there effectively, I'm talking about how the position benefits him. Not as in what he can do from there in terms of punishing the opponent trying something, but in terms of what he can make the opponent try given he has more options than simply Grab + SH Aerials. Down-B + Side-B give Sonic a dynamic from the neutral position that opponents have to consider, that they don't have to consider at all with Falcon.
It's like his version of Nair-Planes.

That's arbitrary semantics though.

Sonic doesn't have a gap to close. If there's a gap, it's from the opponents end that something needs to be done.
Nothing more needs to be said, as that is all that matters.

How about you donate to pbnj?

 

[DireDrop]

How about you donate to pbnj?

What is pbnj?

 

[Alex Night]

What is pbnj?

It's Humongous TinFoil Catamaran AKA it's whatever you want it to be.

 

[Nausicaa]

It's good on cookies and I got a cookie!
Otherwise, I like to think posts mean something.
People who help the community < help those people < give them resources < get resources.
Which is actually a lesson to be learned that I recognize due to learning it before, though if there was a lesson I didn't learn I wouldn't catch it, at least this is something I applied long ago.
Still trying to figure this one out efficiently on a more public scale (DAT threads, etc), as giving players all-expense paid trips around the world and privately coaching some top individual players takes a toll on time and budget.
Perhaps it's time video dialogues along with game-play in some form took its place.
TY for reminders to keep growing to help others grow.

In other news.
Sonic was REALLY good, even without some game-polarizing tricks, he was STILL pretty darn good. Now he's lacking game-polarizing tools, and is just pretty darn good.
It's better this way. At least, I find it funner to play Sonic, lots of dynamics to the game and depth to work with.

 

[PseudoTypical]

In other news.
Sonic was REALLY good, even without some game-polarizing tricks, he was STILL pretty darn good. Now he's lacking game-polarizing tools, and is just pretty darn good.
It's better this way. At least, I find it funner to play Sonic, lots of dynamics to the game and depth to work with.

I think there are plenty of options for him to use, yeah (although I'm probably not the best source for that sort of thing). He's got plenty of tools for the punishing game, IMO. I just wish he was more of a rushdown character, because that's the kind of character I think most of us see him as. Some significant tools for that were taken away, I think. This might sound a little crazy, but I'd be fine with nerfs in many regards to him if we was given more opportunities to get in people's faces, and maybe less focus on gimping and more on stronger hits.

 

[Nausicaa]

I love the chipping away, but with a character based on a fast-paced highly active game and nature, it would be more appropriate were this the case.
He could pull it off in 2.1 with that silly Side-B... not so much anymore. Tedious precision work instead. It will come with time, but it's not exactly a center-point of what makes him work, that's for sure.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I love the chipping away, but with a character based on a fast-paced highly active game and nature, it would be more appropriate were this the case.
He could pull it off in 2.1 with that silly Side-B... not so much anymore. Tedious precision work instead. It will come with time, but it's not exactly a center-point of what makes him work, that's for sure.

Well, I hope it gets there eventually, although I won't complain about a need for precision if it means he can still be aggressive. I never played 2.1 so I don't know how the side-B was. lol

 

[Nausicaa]

It was sexy.

 

[PseudoTypical]

It was sexy.

Just watched some videos. I want that so bad (even if it's kind of cheap)...

EDIT: Like this

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Sonic used to be fun to play, not anymore, all you do is bait out punishes, and his kill options suck, I was playing him consistently in 2.5 but I've dropped him entirely in 2.6, he used to be a rushdown character which was fun, but this Sonic is just plain boring, and my secondary is Zelda

 

[Nausicaa]

just plain boring, and my secondary is Zelda

LOL
That was awesome.
So much Zelda hate.
I still like this Sonic. 2.1 was my favorite for sure, but if Sonic was originally released with this incarnation, I would've said 'kudos' to the PM team.

It will be easier to build on this Sonic, to make him fun and functional in the game, than it ever would have been with 2.1 or 2.5. That's for sure.
Edit: I miss abusing Side-B > WD as an approach for literally everything. Craziest rush-down in smash history.

 

[PseudoTypical]

It will be easier to build on this Sonic, to make him fun and functional in the game, than it ever would have been with 2.1 or 2.5. That's for sure.
Edit: I miss abusing Side-B > WD as an approach for literally everything. Craziest rush-down in smash history.

This is what I think we should care about. It might not be what we're all going for right now, but it's at least a good establishment for a better thing. I hope the changes come sooner rather than later, but in terms of functionality, he can live fine for now. The fun factor is something I hope the PMBR won't neglect for a major release.


I really, really need to learn how to wavedash consistently for things even half as fun as this...

 

[Nausicaa]

This is what I think we should care about. It might not be what we're all going for right now, but it's at least a good establishment for a better thing. I hope the changes come sooner rather than later, but in terms of functionality, he can live fine for now. The fun factor is something I hope the PMBR won't neglect for a major release.


I really, really need to learn how to wavedash consistently for things even half as fun as this...

Read my sig? lol

I don't want them to do anything major with him any time soon. When 3.0 comes along, only minor tweaks to his existing game-flow are needed. There's so much that needs to be flushed out, there's no sense in changing anything. He really is a bran-new character with little to no dynamic established meta-game, meaning not a single match-up (or match) can even be played with any comprehension of what WILL be. A LOT will be different in very short time, but it needs time, no matter how short.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Read my sig? lol

I don't want them to do anything major with him any time soon. When 3.0 comes along, only minor tweaks to his existing game-flow are needed. There's so much that needs to be flushed out, there's no sense in changing anything. He really is a bran-new character with little to no dynamic established meta-game, meaning not a single match-up (or match) can even be played with any comprehension of what WILL be. A LOT will be different in very short time, but it needs time, no matter how short.

Forgot about it, actually. lol

I like his moveset, honestly, so just changing a couple properties here and there should be enough to make some good differences. For 3.0, I hope there's at least that much, but yeah, they need to keep a steady head about how they want to approach him as a character.

 

[Alex Night]

LOL
That was awesome.
So much Zelda hate.
I still like this Sonic. 2.1 was my favorite for sure, but if Sonic was originally released with this incarnation, I would've said 'kudos' to the PM team.

It will be easier to build on this Sonic, to make him fun and functional in the game, than it ever would have been with 2.1 or 2.5. That's for sure.
Edit: I miss abusing Side-B > WD as an approach for literally everything. Craziest rush-down in smash history.

If you state it like that, then it is the PMBR's fault for not introducing this version of Sonic in the first place with 2.1. Sonic is in a bad place now because many people have various skewed views of what Sonic should be thanks to the previous Sonic incarnations and 3.0 is nearly among us... He has potential to be sure, but the question is now on how big that potential is once Sonic no longer has that surprise factor and the opponents stop throwing everything out in an attempt to keep Sonic on lock down. I don't know, I'll have to watch Big House 3 and see how that goes. (Hopefully, there are some devoted Sonic players that know how to use 2.6 Sonic in Project M.)

Sonic's good, but he isn't great either. I still love the guy to death and would still play him as he is now. Also, you can still use Side B > WD in 2.6. Just the problem is that it isn't as effective as it was in 2.1 or 2.5b thanks to the JC window delay. If they did undo that change in 3.0, then Sonic can have somewhat of a pressure game.

 

[Nausicaa]

because many people have various skewed views of what Sonic should be

Hopefully, there are some devoted Sonic players that know how to use 2.6 Sonic in Project M.

Also, you can still use Side B > WD in 2.6.

Then it's not Sonic that's in a bad place... haha
This is typically what I try to point out in most discussion pre-established meta-game develops. It's a weird topic that people generally don't think of this way, but does that make sense now?
Doesn't really matter, stuff is as it is.

Opinion (for once) = I still think he's good/great enough to be where he needs to be, but needs a lot more time to develop due to the nature of his character (processes for everything that take many smaller details to achieve what needs to be done, but can achieve anything because of the accessibility and ability to do essentially anything if done accordingly), which is already set back by both previous perspective influence hindering players, and being essentially a 'new' addition in 2.6b.

I hope so too! That would be surprising and inspirational to know of. Picking up that quick to any dynamics of the meta-game (including the players they're involved with aiding that) would be sexy.

Yeah, but it's not sexy.

 

[Alex Night]

Then it's not Sonic that's in a bad place... haha
This is typically what I try to point out in most discussion pre-established meta-game develops. It's a weird topic that people generally don't think of this way, but does that make sense now?
Doesn't really matter, stuff is as it is.

Opinion (for once) = I still think he's good/great enough to be where he needs to be, but needs a lot more time to develop due to the nature of his character (processes for everything that take many smaller details to achieve what needs to be done, but can achieve anything because of the accessibility and ability to do essentially anything if done accordingly), which is already set back by both previous perspective influence hindering players, and being essentially a 'new' addition in 2.6b.

I hope so too! That would be surprising and inspirational to know of. Picking up that quick to any dynamics of the meta-game (including the players they're involved with aiding that) would be sexy.

Yeah, but it's not sexy.

On that we can agree with. I'll give him a try with my partner one week before WHOBO 5 to see where Sonic and me will stand. If it isn't too promising, then well... At least I got Mario and Link to fall back on.

 

[DireDrop]

Sonic's good, but he isn't great either. I still love the guy to death and would still play him as he is now. Also, you can still use Side B > WD in 2.6. Just the problem is that it isn't as effective as it was in 2.1 or 2.5b thanks to the JC window delay. If they did undo that change in 3.0, then Sonic can have somewhat of a pressure game.

PMBR, if you make this change I will love you forever.

 

[Solharath]

I don't know where some of you are getting this "Make the opponent close the gap" mindset. How do you do that? Playing patiently? They can be just as patient, and that's if you aren't forced to approach due to a projectile game that a large majority of the cast has. You've got fireballs with low cooldown, Bombs and quick boomerangs, transcendent-priority lasers, multi-hit leaves, and needles dominating the high tier metagame... The opponent more often than not has a way to force Sonic to approach them in a way that keeps them relatively safe, Sonic's speed be damned. Don't get me started on Lucas, who shoots himself away from you while flinging a fast projectile at your face and low-jump height.

And the characters that lack a projectile often outrange Sonic or just do plain better at close combat. Marth can keep Sonic at bay with safe swings of his fair.

Sonic cannot play the patient game. He lacks the tools against a majority of the opponents and you are fooling yourself otherwise. It's amusing, the tagline for Sonic '06?

"This time, speed won't be enough."

Naus, I'm all for theory craft, but until someone really puts what you're saying into play, I'm going to have to take everything you say about Sonic being good, and what he has is enough, with a grain of salt. I seriously don't think you play well enough, against mid-to-high tier players, to carry an opinion on the Sonic metagame. Put what you say into practice, place highly, and I'll believe you. Show me your moves, Naus, I'd love to see Sonic do well again.

 

[Ariyo]

I don't know where some of you are getting this "Make the opponent close the gap" mindset. How do you do that? Playing patiently? They can be just as patient, and that's if you aren't forced to approach due to a projectile game that a large majority of the cast has. You've got fireballs with low cooldown, Bombs and quick boomerangs, transcendent-priority lasers, multi-hit leaves, and needles dominating the high tier metagame... The opponent more often than not has a way to force Sonic to approach them in a way that keeps them relatively safe, Sonic's speed be damned. Don't get me started on Lucas, who shoots himself away from you while flinging a fast projectile at your face and low-jump height.

And the characters that lack a projectile often outrange Sonic or just do plain better at close combat. Marth can keep Sonic at bay with safe swings of his fair.

Sonic cannot play the patient game. He lacks the tools against a majority of the opponents and you are fooling yourself otherwise. It's amusing, the tagline for Sonic '06?

"This time, speed won't be enough."

Naus, I'm all for theory craft, but until someone really puts what you're saying into play, I'm going to have to take everything you say about Sonic being good, and what he has is enough, with a grain of salt. I seriously don't think you play well enough, against mid-to-high tier players, to carry an opinion on the Sonic metagame. Put what you say into practice, place highly, and I'll believe you. Show me your moves, Naus, I'd love to see Sonic do well again.

Said way better than I could have.

 

[DireDrop]

I noticed something kinda interesting. If you do an ariel down-B, it can still be jump cancelled (and then dodged out of) before it hits the ground. With a little practice, I've found I can do down-Bs out of a short hop and (almost) wave land them. Obviously not a true wave land though since you have to jump first. It reminds me of doing ariel down-Bs in Brawl and shield canceling them. And of course, you can combo into something else after the jump instead, like a fair or blast attack. Not sure if this is worth anything. I'm just throwing out ideas to try and break this character in case we don't get a buff.