Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[\Apples]

Using the word "mindgames" later than 2006/2007 is like the instant sctub button, because you obv don't know the meaning. W/e do what you need to do.

Personally I wont touch Sonic again until they make him fun and playable again.

If you think he's not playable now then I'd say you need a serious reality check.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You know, I used to ask myself the same question. Although, Even if it was possible, I would imagine it to be quite strict considering Sonic's lack of actual jump-squat frames during spindash roll. I'm sure for whatever reason he can't do so is for a legit reason. I would list my reason for why you can't or why it would be bad but I don't want to be wrong and also have nothing to support it.

If I had to fashion a guess as to why he can't do it, it would be to keep him from doing whatever he wants out of Spin Dash. I don't imagine that it would be difficult to allow him to jump at his short hop height, but I very well could be wrong.

He doesn't "Jump" technically, he goes into a SpindDashJump action. He is neither full hopping nor short hopping.

Technically, yeah. The height matches or is similar to his full hop height though.

 

[GHNeko]

This character is silly.

But hey, at least Side B is good enough to be the go to move now.

Dem Uthrow Side B Aerials Trixies.

 

[Nazo]

Dem Uthrow Side B Aerials Trixies.

These are really good for comboing opponents onto platforms.

 

[GHNeko]

His priority is making me cry.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk 2

 

[Alex Night]

His priority is making me cry.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk 2

You mean that in a good way or a bad way? His priority on his Spin moves make me cry considering it's non-existant. Also, I just found that Spin Dash > Spin turnaround > Dair actually links together pretty good to rack damage and start a setup for another combo, considering that the same combo with Fair doesn't work out as well anymore because now the hitboxes are weird. I think he may have that one combo or kill string now that people can fear now. I don't see him as a top tier right now, but maybe a high tier if this combo really pans out.

 

[GHNeko]

Turning into a ball is the scariest thing ever.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tero.]

Clone engine confirmed. I want Shadow now really, really bad​

 

[Alex Night]

Clone engine confirmed. I want Shadow now really, really bad

I just saw that too and I'm still in shock. If they do happen to add in Shadow, I hope that they put thought in his character like making him have worse traction than Sonic and adding more chaos powers. Also, since this wasn't talked about yet Turbo Sonic looks like 2.1 Sonic with 2.5 Sonic moves.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I just saw that too and I'm still in shock. If they do happen to add in Shadow, I hope that they put thought in his character like making him have worse traction than Sonic and adding more chaos powers. Also, since this wasn't talked about yet Turbo Sonic looks like 2.1 Sonic with 2.5 Sonic moves.

This; basically the tons of Shadow PSAs plus some creativity. I think it'll be a while if it ever happens, though.

Oh, really? I couldn't even tell what was going on. I hope that's the case.

 

[Nazo]

They will probably add knuckles, if I had to guess; Shadow and Tails would be far too difficult or erratic (balance-wise) and would cause much much controversy among the Sonic mains and the backroom. Knuckles is a simple character that seems much easier to implement into the game without backlash from fans.

 

[SpiderMad]

Moonwalking with Shadow's run, mmm

 

[GunBlaze]

Moonwalking with Shadow's run, mmm

Swag to the max

 

[Tero.]

I think it would be easier to create and moveset for shadow (already tons out there) than it would be for Knuckles
tbqh im pretty sure this will never happen

 

[Solharath]

This just in Sonic still bad, mains resort to talking about mythical additions to Project M roster in order to cope.

 

[War Anvil]

Yeah, but that's all the fault of guys like Wizzy for torturing other players via 2.5 Sonic. I'd say 2.6 Sonic's looking more like a skill gate character.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Yeah, but that's all the fault of guys like Wizzy for torturing other players via 2.5 Sonic. I'd say 2.6 Sonic's looking more like a skill gate character.

As someone looking to get better, I agree and am not happy about it...

This just in Sonic still bad, mains resort to talking about mythical additions to Project M roster in order to cope.

Gotta go fast somehow, right?

 

[Tero.]

Yeah, but that's all the fault of guys like Wizzy for torturing other players via 2.5 Sonic. I'd say 2.6 Sonic's looking more like a skill gate character.

I'd say 2.6 Sonic's looking more like a terrible excuse of a character

 

[War Anvil]

@Tero: Ah yes, again with the excessive nerfs. PMBR, take notes. Now if you'll ex-slosh me, I've got some Sup4AE and MinMAX to play............

 

[Solharath]

I'd say 2.6 Sonic's looking more like a terrible excuse of a character

It really looks like they should have just removed Sonic entirely in 2.6 rather than release the version he is now. I've been looking into every possible venue Sonic has. The only shot Sonic has in a fight is for those unfamiliar with his playstyle. Otherwise it's just juggle until they DI out of it(it should only take one uair to pop out, but they may be slow to react from the first hit), and poke at them until you lose because you lost your last stock and they're at 190% living from a strong-hit fair.

The worst part of the downtime wasn't the lack of community interaction, but rather the stream of information we needed to see how well Sonic is doing now.

2.5b Sonic had only a handful of Sonic's winning tournaments and placing high. I counted four, myself included(so obviously that number is skewed to be too high already), with Wizzy taking home most of the pot. With the last month of information basically lost, we don't truly know how well 2.6b Sonic is doing, which is obviously a lot worse, while Bowser and Fox continue to be the tournament winning behemoths they've always been.

Sonic is still my go-to character, 'cause I feel at home with his moveset, but every time I play this game... I get to a point where I simply don't want to play Project M anymore. He's infuriating to play. I keep hitting my opponent, I keep getting in, setting things up... and then Sonic just fails to have any potential to kill. This Sonic is forced into this hit and run game that is reminscent of Brawl Sonic. He's just a nuisance to fight against instead of a threat.

If I wanted to play Brawl I'd play Brawl. I want my speedy, strong, easily combo'd, glass cannon back.

Anyway, I'm gonna go hit up the tournament results forum after this, see if I can dredge up anything that acts as a counter to my points. Maybe someone out there is still winning with Sonic.

 

[DireDrop]

Sonic needs a Knee. That'd make his life easier.

 

[GMaster171]

Hey guys

Uair is good

Do you use it?

If not... you should

 

[Wizzrobe]

Hey guys

Uair is good

Do you use it?

If not... you should

Eh it's ok, I really only find it useful for killing off the top. you can combo with it but usually there is a better option than u-air for extending combos. Or if the only possible way to hit ur opponent when hes above u is u-air.

 

[GMaster171]

Is there any 2.6 Sonic footage yet, I haven't really seen any since it came out...

want to compare what i do with what others do

 

[PseudoTypical]

Hey Wizzrobe, since you seem to kinda have it in with the PMBR, have you seen anything new for Sonic? Obviously you can't tell us all the details, but if you've heard of anything, were you happy about it?

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

This is the footage I have: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv2jYaAZWh0

Its not great but at least its something.

 

[Archangel]

Sonic is a bad character that can move very fast. If Pichu had Sonic's speed he'd be about as good as sonic.

 

[Solharath]

Just FYI I looked into some recent tournaments(Not the most recent at the time of this post, but...), and Sonic is either not appearing at any tournaments at all, or he's not placing well at all. The best Sonic placements have been ~5-man tournament where he placed 3rd, which was MeekSpeedy, and a 20+ man tournament where I placed 5th after losing to a Falco on the last stock 'cause lol dair spike whenever(also I'm free).

Right now, Darky seems to be the only Sonic repping him fairly well, but to be honest I don't know how much of that Sonic is 2.5b(I skipped around a lot in the video and didn't pay superclose attention), but combo videos can be... misleading. I don't know the skill of your opponents and I don't know how consistently you're able to pull off those combos in the video.

I'd like to see Wizzy and Leeleu(did I spell that right? I think I didn't) weigh in on the nerfhog.

 

[Juushichi]

I mean, Sonic should be buffed nahmean.

I still think that his initial dash should be weakened a tad, but he should still be able to move quickly and annoy opponents into comboing and junk.

This sonic is just woefully ineffective.

 

[Alex Night]

Just FYI I looked into some recent tournaments(Not the most recent at the time of this post, but...), and Sonic is either not appearing at any tournaments at all, or he's not placing well at all. The best Sonic placements have been ~5-man tournament where he placed 3rd, which was MeekSpeedy, and a 20+ man tournament where I placed 5th after losing to a Falco on the last stock 'cause lol dair spike whenever(also I'm free).

Right now, Darky seems to be the only Sonic repping him fairly well, but to be honest I don't know how much of that Sonic is 2.5b(I skipped around a lot in the video and didn't pay superclose attention), but combo videos can be... misleading. I don't know the skill of your opponents and I don't know how consistently you're able to pull off those combos in the video.

I'd like to see Wizzy and Leeleu(did I spell that right? I think I didn't) weigh in on the nerfhog.

You'll know that it is 2.6 Sonic when you see the Dark Sonic in Sonic's picture during the match. The description in the video says that they are only "read" combos and they can be DI'd out of although I don't know of how good Darky's reaction time is if the DI changed on him.

Yeah, I also looked at the tournament listings for during the timeframe of 2.6 and Sonic hasn't really got a lot of representation. I'll pretty much say that Sonic doesn't really hold alot of killing potential outside of early kill gimps which aren't guaranteed 60% of the time at high level play. It kinda seems like most people that did like Sonic in 2.5b are keeping 2.6 Sonic to themselves from the tournaments, which is the same thing that I'm doing. At least Sonic is a good teammate on doubles because of percentage, but doubles are a whole different beast from singles.

 

[batistabus]

I really don't see a place for a move like homing attack, aside from being canon. Really not a fan of anything automated. Plus it's bad now. I still think it should always have a set trajectory, but be faster. I guess it wouldn't technically be a homing attack at that point...but that's the point.

And then Down-b. It's MUCH less effective now (which is very good), but I still don't think a move that substitutes good old fashioned movement has a place in a Melee-like environment. Why does the fastest character in the game need a reason to not utilize his movement? To be honest, I'm not sure if the nerfs to this move were meant to make it simply less effective, or useless like Yoshi's side-b (I'd prefer the latter).

I really don't think Sonic is as bad as people are making him out to be. Ideally, he should be the hardest character to master (fastest speed = hardest to control, but extremely threatening if mastered). I don't care if people aren't using him in tournaments...as long as he's well designed and not polarizing.

 

[GMaster171]

Well down-b opens options his speed doesn't let him do. B-reverse, spin shot, the quick start (idk what to call it, but land cancelling the start-up into the moving part) all give him some sort of tricky movement patterns that his run and dash-jump speed cant achieve. It's not really there to replace his movement, but rather to augment it in a few fairly important situations. I imagine it was supposed to be this from the start, but its properties were too strong so it did in fact end up replacing his movement. If you try to replace spacing, DDing and WDing with down-b in 2.6, you will run into a wall (literally against some characters lol)

side-b does a similar (tho less versatile) thing, with its edge cancels, quick hitbox and JC option.

Imo Sonic isnt bottom of bottom, but he was hit a little hard.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

I have some other matches if you guys wanna take a look, and thanks for the feedback.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

I agree with batistabus. Sonic is still good but only in the right hands, he's become a character that takes dedication and a lot of skill to control properly.

 

[DireDrop]

I think his kill moves need to be buffed. I really like the options he has between his b-moves and his fantastic dash, but his lack of killing potential is too much of a draw back. The non-spike hitbox of his fair could hit much harder. I also wouldn't mind it if bair was a bit scarier and if nair could be brought a little closer to its 2.5 iteration.

Decreasing the time out of side-b before he can jump wouldn't hurt either. It doesn't change his fundamental play style, just gives him a bit more of an edge.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I've been playing a lot of 2.6 Sonic in the past little while. I picked him up with the goal of both learning him and understanding exactly where he stands after his substantial nerfing. This post is going to try to encompass all my thoughts on him after this time.

The first three sections are preface for my thoughts, so that you can read them in context and understand why I'm saying the things I say. If you want, feel free to skip straight to the "Thoughts on Sonic" sections.

Background:
I have mained Captain Falcon since I started playing smash about 8 months ago. I transitioned from Melee to PM right as I was growing out of my awful scrub self and into a real player. I play Falcon pretty much like everyone plays Falcon: dashdance camping, grabs, combos, punishes, and knees, with some extra testosterone where needed.

About my Sonic:
My Sonic gameplay started out much like my Falcon gameplay but it became increasingly clear that that would not cut it. As I rethought my gameplay, I tried to analyze the places where I was failing. Most noticeably, my hardest punishes usually didn't outright kill anyone, I had a strong tendency to trade disadvantageously or to have my moves outright beaten by my opponent, and I was failing to be a credible threat when camping in neutral. Next I tried to figure out why these things were happening. I wasn't outright killing anyone because Sonic isn't capable of it, I was trading or being beaten often because Sonic's hitboxes are all very weak and lose to anything with even the smallest bit of meat, and I wasn't a credible threat because of a compounding of the previous two factors: My hitboxes were weak and I wasn't going to kill you, so why be scared of my dashdance?
My solution to these problems has been two-fold. Firstly, I've kept my patient neutral game in tact but try to focus a lot on baits in leu of using a dashdance to act scary without committing to anything. Secondly, I play extremely aggressively whenever I've won the neutral game. Once I've landed a hit or a grab, I do absolutely everything in my power to keep hitboxes on the opponent. Down-Bs over their tech options, side-B platformcancels, upairs, nairs, fairs, everything. My goal in doing this is to not let things reset to true neutral. At a minimum I want to hold centerstage and, more generally, I want my opponent knocked down or on the edge or falling from the sky or offstage.
Without getting too wrapped up in it, that's how my Sonic evolved and how it plays.

Why I play like a barbarian:
I feel justifying my playstyle will help me express my thoughts on Sonic as a whole. It's very obvious that Sonic is fast, but what is easily my favorite part about the character (and the reason I may stick with him) is his ability to be anywhere he wants to be. He can be off the top of the screen, or all the way across Rumble Falls for an edgeguard, or wherever else you want to be extremely quickly. I try to leverage this fact both in my opponent's head and in my execution. I try to promote the feeling that at no point are you safe. If Peach plucks a turnip, I'm going to put a hitbox in her face for it. If Ganon is doing his Down-B/Up-B nonsense to get back from an ftilt at 180%, I'm going to go out there and hit him again. I can't emphasize enough how strongly I believe that Sonic's ability to be anywhere at any time is his strongest attribute and what makes him a competitive character.
Additionally, we all are aware of Sonic's trouble actually KOing his opponent. I won't blabber on about this, but get right to why I mention this. I mention it because if I need to build a lot of percent before I can kill anyone, I'm going to have to either a. win the neutral game frequently or b. get a massive amount of percent off every advantage I get. I strongly prefer the latter, with the goal being to turn a single success in neutral into a string of advantages that eventually take the stock. While this may sound impractical (and often times, it is exactly as impossible as it sounds), in practice it works as a constant effort to keep the opponent uncomfortable with his positioning or choices.
Obviously, I'm not going to succeed at this all of the time. Or most of the time. Or even some of the time. But, this is the goal and I certainly won't develop effective aggression by not playing ballsy.

Thoughts on Sonic:
With the above information as a frame from which to understand my thoughts on Sonic the character, here goes. Sonic has a number of distinct and incredible weaknesses: Sonic has an incredibly difficult time outright killing his opponents (as in, pushing them through the top or sides of the stage); Sonic's attacks have awful priority and are beaten out by most anything else; Sonic cannot recover without his double jump. He has other struggles as well, but I think these are most important because I'm glad he has these weaknesses. I know it's hard for a lot of Sonic mains from 2.5b to swallow this, but it's probably the most important point I'll make so I'll reiterate: I think it's good that Sonic has these weaknesses and I don't think anything should be done to fix them. Having distinct weaknesses (and strengths) on not only Sonic, but any of the game's characters is good for the game. Specific to Sonic, I think that it is completely fine that he has these weaknesses, and that they do not need to be change in any way.
With that laid bare, I'll flip the coin and look at Sonic's strengths. As I mentioned, I think by far Sonic's greatest attribute is his ability to very quickly be wherever he wants; not just one or the other side of the stage, but anywhere in the air or offstage as well. If he wants to be there, he can get there quickly and he can hit whatever is there. This agility in combination with his raw speed, in my opinion, provide him enough options in neutral and mostly (although not entirely) negate his bad priority and inability to recover without a double jump. His other strength is his ability to gimp (some of) the cast at pretty low percents with his fair, his spring, and his other egdeguarding moves like ftilt and bair. This strength should help compensate for his inability to kill but should not completely replace killing as his method of taking stocks. And for the most part, it does. Of all Sonic's attributes, however, I feel this is the one that could use tweaking.

The wishlist:
This is the part where I pretend I have some formerly unconsidered suggestion that will magically fix all of Sonic's problems. Jokes aside, I'm going to break this into two parts, "The focus" and "The extra", named as intuitively as I can after I've been writing a while.
The focus:
-Give Homing Attack back it's knockback angle from 2.5b, leave the increased lag in tact.
I think this single change will be enough of a buff to Sonic's ability to take stocks. With just this increase in gimping power, I think Sonic will have a proper enough distribution of strong and weak attributes to compete in enough matchups and to do well with dedication and talent. And that's it. I think this change and this change alone is all Sonic really needs.
The extra:
-Increase the priority on the inner hitboxes of nair.
I think a slightly higher reward for a properly placed nair would do wonders for Sonic. Just the assurance that you won't randomly lose your combo to someone mashing A right as you hit them, as well as the ability to win a collision in neutral, would give the character a less "weak" feel.

Conclusion:
If there are two things I could hope one of our backroom overlords could take from this post, they would be these: 1. Sonic's weaknesses are fine as they are and should not be lessened; it's okay for there to be a character that kills poorly and has no priority. 2. Reverting the knockback angle on Homing Attack (and leaving the lag as is) would be enough of a buff to put the Sonic in a good place.
Shoutout to anyone who read the whole thing, I hope my opinions have proved insightful. I am really enjoying Sonic despite his weakness and will probably continue to flesh out my playstyle in the hopes of fully capitalizing on what Sonic does well.

 

[Nazo]

His other strength is his ability to gimp (some of) the cast at pretty low percents with his fair, his spring, and his other egdeguarding moves like ftilt and bair. This strength should help compensate for his inability to kill but should not completely replace killing as his method of taking stocks, and for the most part it does.

The meteor hitbox of his fair could hit much harder; I also wouldn't mind it if bair was a bit scarier.

I strongly agree with these statements. I don't understand why bair received a knockback/damage nerf in the first place.

I enjoy 2.6 nair; although, it could definitely use just a bit more priority. I also feel as though the upper hitbox on Fair should be given more knockback.

And yes, I did in fact read your entire post, Minor; very insightful. I do agree that reverting homing attack properties back to 2.5 would be enough of a buff to put Sonic in a good place; unfortunately, though, I do not think that it is necessary. It was simply too good offstage. Giving Sonic a bit more kill power is pretty much what he needs right now. Homing attack is fine as it is and would set up for decent kills, both on and off-stage, if Sonic actually received more knockback for bair/fair.

 

[DireDrop]

I also feel as though the upper hitbox on Fair should be given more knockback.

You quoted me as saying the meteor hitbox should hit harder. That would certainly be cool but it's this upper hitbox I was talking about. The meteor is only relevant when he's off-stage and I'd rather his go-to kill move wasn't so situational dependent.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I do agree that reverting homing attack properties back to 2.5 would be enough of a buff to put Sonic in a good place; unfortunately, though, I do not think that it is necessary. It was simply too good offstage. Giving Sonic a bit more kill power is pretty much what he needs right now. Homing attack is fine as it is and would set up for decent kills, both on and off-stage, if Sonic actually received more knockback for bair/fair.

Do you think that it being "too good" offstage would continue to be true if they kept the increased startup time as well as the lengthened inactionable period at the end, but only reverted the knockback angle?

 

[Nazo]

Do you think that it being "too good" offstage would continue to be true if they kept the increased startup time as well as the lengthened inactionable period at the end, but only reverted the knockback angle?

I'd hate to play devil's advocate but... Yes, lol. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Sonic that feels this way though. I feel as though 2.5 HA was too polarizing offstage, especially against fallers. Also, considering how far out Sonic can travel offstage just makes HA all the more frightening.