Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[TwicH]

His kill moves is kinda iffy but his gimp game is still godlike. Spring, D-air, B-air, F-air and N-air are all great gimping tools.

 

[Viceversa96]

Why did they nerf Sonic? Just buff the other characters or learn the freaken match-up. Remember Sheik at first and how people thought she was broken (Jiggz also got hate). I feel this was a stupid decision. Sonic is light and doesn't do well against projectile characters. Those are his weaknesses.

 

[leelue]

When sheik was thought to be broken, it was back when people didn't know how to play the game.

Also, sonic had like a 300:-200 matchup against falco, so saying he did poorly against projectile characters is not true.

Also "buff the other characters" leads to an MC Escher staircase of nonsense and that should not be the goal of this, or any other, game.

 

[Oro?!]

The reason slowfall dair is unlikely to come back is largely due to Metaknight. If Sonic was able to slowfall dair, then Metaknight would also be capable. It is not a move specific property. It is a global mechanic iirc.

 

[Burnsy]

The reason slowfall dair is unlikely to come back is largely due to Metaknight. If Sonic was able to slowfall dair, then Metaknight would also be capable. It is not a move specific property. It is a global mechanic iirc.

Oh wow, that makes so much sense. I was wondering why Ivy couldn't slowfall her uair anymore.

 

[Strong Badam]

Why did they nerf Sonic? Just buff the other characters

 

[GunBlaze]

Based Strong Badam is based.

 

[Solharath]

The reason slowfall dair is unlikely to come back is largely due to Metaknight. If Sonic was able to slowfall dair, then Metaknight would also be capable. It is not a move specific property. It is a global mechanic iirc.

I'm very aware of this. I'd actually like to see slowfallDair MK. It's not a particularly strong spike in the slightest, and his own recovery, while varied, isn't particularly good. Increase just how long his Dair goes for if you think it'll be too broken for MK.

Or just because it was a global change doesn't mean you can't, perhaps, make them into individual changes, for Ivy and Sonic and... hm, well, we've yet to see some characters come back, I wonder what else could be changed with them. (ICs, for example?)

 

[Oro?!]

MK's dair does not function well with the slowfall. The move's properties are based around the non slowfall, and changing from normal fall to slowfall messes up the linking hitboxes.

Since all of those moves are created using the same properties, I think they would need to be made from scratch, or MKs dair would have to be in order to retain that usage...

 

[Solharath]

Hm. I think I understand the problem, however, I can't help but ask why that's a bad thing. A player chooses whether or not they want the slowfall option or not, so MK's Dair working less effectively when they choose to slowfall sounds like an excellent trade off to having the option.

Unless of course it makes the move MORE powerful when it slowfalls, because my opponent, who plays larger characters like Charizard and R.O.B, escaping the linking hitboxes already with minimal effort.

 

[Oro?!]

Consistency among similar properties is a pretty common theme across the board in PM. We don't really break a lot of rules for singular characters unless it's completely necessary.

 

[Alex Night]

Well it's been a minute and I would like to express my full gratitude for all the advice I've gotten, thank you all it has truly helped me.

I have been playing this Sonic too much like 2.5. An now I see the potential of this one. Sure he is not as aggressive as the previous Sonic (I could just overwhelm the opponent to death adding a bit of fakes in as needed), but he has a lot more to offer in terms of play style. The motto i learned from this....pester and punish! This Sonic has a great pester game. (which was stated by many above, you guys are genius!)

For instance dodge as well as back grabs, or moon-walking. An I stress the moon-walking part, then using grab to catch someone from behind. A tactic that has been very fruitful, and with the update to his up air this can make it very dangerous for someone still in the immediate stun of a combo or the helpless state. An homing attack still proves the best set up for combs for me. A well placed homing attack and then make use of the new spin-dash landing right on top of the foe. From there punish them if they crouch cancel with a full charged attack or shoot off quickly and create an opening with a jump spin-dash or whatever you see fit. Hey experiment.

The new spin-dash may not be as versatile but it is very hard to guard or dodge well. An that's the point. On flat areas like FD you can combo to your hearts content, and on bigger courses with slopes just don't think you have to dash-attack right into the fray. Remember, you cant out muscle everyone...but you can out run anyone. Get them to chase you, than dash dance and punish them for trying to do so.

All in all the thing I'm working most on is my recovery, still needs some fine tuning but that will come with practice.An I have no doubt the proper use will present itself.

I guess I was so upset by the change and what they took away from me, that I didn't take into account this awesome chance to become stronger I was given. I'm now thinking several steps ahead and making sure my speed can get the job done. I still feel this game is 90% instinct, but now 5% planing 5% outlook. Confidence is key, I played so much worse when I was dwelling on what I cant do, now I enjoy seeing what kind of new combo or gimp I will come up with on the spot.

So thanks again to you all. Sonic is still a boss, and I look forward to the next game.

That's the spirit. Also, if you need a bit of extra help with recovery what I like to do is use my HA to tech into some stages like Green Hill and the SSE: Jungle stage as I can just ride up the sides of the stage while I try to hold onto my second jump. :D I love using it in combination of the Blast Attack to trick up the edgeguarding opponent, baiting him into using an kill move that has lag for Sonic to jump over with the Spring and back on the stage. Another thing to help with recovery is the Momentum Cancel, where you use an aerial like Upair to get more horizontal distance.

Trust me when I say that it is easy to overlook some of the buffs of a character when there is plenty of nerfs.

Moonwalking is a gimmick it has no real uses.
Never ever use the word "mindgam(e/ing)" again, thanks.
Sonic sucks now. We should all play another character...

You sir need to get the salt out of your hair. I'll use whatever terminology I want unless corrected on the meaning of a term. I will also stick with my favorite blue hyperactive, chili dog eating hedgehog over Fox or Marth anyday.

 

[Tero.]

Using the word "mindgames" later than 2006/2007 is like the instant sctub button, because you obv don't know the meaning. W/e do what you need to do.

Personally I wont touch Sonic again until they make him fun and playable again.

 

[leelue]

"The reason slowfall dair is unlikely to come back is largely due to.

it being strange to have an aerial, that already gives you a movement option, an additional movement option."

 

[ph00tbag]

Why did they nerf Sonic? Just buff the other characters or learn the freaken match-up. Remember Sheik at first and how people thought she was broken (Jiggz also got hate). I feel this was a stupid decision. Sonic is light and doesn't do well against projectile characters. Those are his weaknesses.

Ever heard of power creep?

No? Then please read up on it before "contributing" to balance discussions.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Using the word "mindgames" later than 2006/2007 is like the instant sctub button, because you obv don't know the meaning. W/e do what you need to do.

Personally I wont touch Sonic again until they make him fun and playable again.

Somebody hasn't adapted yeeet~

 

[Solharath]

I was about to go into a tangent about what Sonic is right now, but with the changelist coming out, I'll be scouring it for any real silver linings for the hedgehog. Adapting or not, Tero's on the right track - Sonic isn't fun. At least, nothing relating to late game. Sonic lacks any sort of trump card move or string that plenty of characters have - in fact, it seems to be indicative of every character. Bowser Fair, Fox USmash, ZSS DSmash to FSmash/Bair. Ivy DThrow to... just about anything really.

Thing is, an opponent has no reason to have something to fear from Sonic. He's full of percentage, which is great(Sonic is great for teams). The kills you see from Sonic these days are mid-tier players and less. That meteor on his fair will catch someone unawares, but because of the fact that Project M doesn't have that 10 frame penalty on Up-B, plenty of characters aren't going to eat that stock. Then there's the simple fact that high level pay is likely not going to screw up even the double-jump penalty.The strong hit it nice, but don't expect it to kill until 120%+ on good DI and that's at the edge of a stage. I personally haven't come up with a way to get the sweetspot on the top at kill percentages because the DI is too easy for all of his throws. It's literally a heart attack when a player goes straight up from a UThrow because the DI is simply away from Sonic, rather than perhaps behind him. The best throw followup Sonic has at late percentages is DThrow to nail them offstage with enough time for you to score that solid fair... which leads into the earlier point. Nair can work, but most characters have the ability to act out of and retaliate before nair hits. Thinks like Luigi Fair, Peach nair, Dorf's nair and uair, even.

...Okay I did go on a small tangent. And I've decided to go on because it's on my mind. Simple thing is that a lot of characters have that move to fear because it could cost them the stock, and you can use that against them - will you use it, or do you have a mixup planned? I'm still looking into what you can do out of spin, seeing just how long you're forced to wait before acting out of it, but it's not the most promising thing, especially when I don't think I've met a character who can't jab Sonic out of Spin Dash these days. Clashing made sense, at least - sure, it clashed with everything, but Sonic's options out of clash were often worse than his opponent. Jab didn't have good range or followups, and was defeated by CCing the first two hits(and still is). Sonic's tilts are good, but not nearly fast enough to deal with plenty of grab ranges, tilts, or jabs of their own.

Sonic nerfs needed to happen. They simply did. SD was just too good of a tool, but removing all the other things? I keep hearing about how broken ftilt was, and how it was better than Sheik's fair. My response? "And...?" Sheik had solid mixups that would always lead into a fair if need be - Dthrow was the usual suspect, but fastfallers who ate the very popular ftilt would also see a fair in their future. Sonic needed to do the bait and poke game with ftilt- the game they're forcing on him now. Except now the opponent isn't punished, they're inconvenienced at worst. Matchup experience is what people needed against Sonic - just because a character can be changed, doesn't mean they should. Again, I argue that nerfs needed to happen, but in an effort to bring him down a notch ended up removing his game altogether and, in essence, removing the satisfaction of playing the character.

I'll probably keep having what fun I can with him. He's a great asset in teams, so I'll keep sharp with him for 3.0 or whatever the next release is when he's got real tools to actually take a stock. But I don't think I'll be staying with him as my main any longer. Not that big of an issue to anyone else. Just voicing some concerns.

 

[Wizzrobe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOtN_kMTnxQ Even Hitler is not happy

 

[Tero.]

That video is gorgeous :D

Wiizzy needs to stop being awesome or else they won't buff Sonic in future releases and we will forever keep that piece of crap :D

 

[Alex Night]

I was about to go into a tangent about what Sonic is right now, but with the changelist coming out, I'll be scouring it for any real silver linings for the hedgehog. Adapting or not, Tero's on the right track - Sonic isn't fun. At least, nothing relating to late game. Sonic lacks any sort of trump card move or string that plenty of characters have - in fact, it seems to be indicative of every character. Bowser Fair, Fox USmash, ZSS DSmash to FSmash/Bair. Ivy DThrow to... just about anything really.

Thing is, an opponent has no reason to have something to fear from Sonic. He's full of percentage, which is great(Sonic is great for teams). The kills you see from Sonic these days are mid-tier players and less. That meteor on his fair will catch someone unawares, but because of the fact that Project M doesn't have that 10 frame penalty on Up-B, plenty of characters aren't going to eat that stock. Then there's the simple fact that high level pay is likely not going to screw up even the double-jump penalty.The strong hit it nice, but don't expect it to kill until 120%+ on good DI and that's at the edge of a stage. I personally haven't come up with a way to get the sweetspot on the top at kill percentages because the DI is too easy for all of his throws. It's literally a heart attack when a player goes straight up from a UThrow because the DI is simply away from Sonic, rather than perhaps behind him. The best throw followup Sonic has at late percentages is DThrow to nail them offstage with enough time for you to score that solid fair... which leads into the earlier point. Nair can work, but most characters have the ability to act out of and retaliate before nair hits. Thinks like Luigi Fair, Peach nair, Dorf's nair and uair, even.

...Okay I did go on a small tangent. And I've decided to go on because it's on my mind. Simple thing is that a lot of characters have that move to fear because it could cost them the stock, and you can use that against them - will you use it, or do you have a mixup planned? I'm still looking into what you can do out of spin, seeing just how long you're forced to wait before acting out of it, but it's not the most promising thing, especially when I don't think I've met a character who can't jab Sonic out of Spin Dash these days. Clashing made sense, at least - sure, it clashed with everything, but Sonic's options out of clash were often worse than his opponent. Jab didn't have good range or followups, and was defeated by CCing the first two hits(and still is). Sonic's tilts are good, but not nearly fast enough to deal with plenty of grab ranges, tilts, or jabs of their own.

Sonic nerfs needed to happen. They simply did. SD was just too good of a tool, but removing all the other things? I keep hearing about how broken ftilt was, and how it was better than Sheik's fair. My response? "And...?" Sheik had solid mixups that would always lead into a fair if need be - Dthrow was the usual suspect, but fastfallers who ate the very popular ftilt would also see a fair in their future. Sonic needed to do the bait and poke game with ftilt- the game they're forcing on him now. Except now the opponent isn't punished, they're inconvenienced at worst. Matchup experience is what people needed against Sonic - just because a character can be changed, doesn't mean they should. Again, I argue that nerfs needed to happen, but in an effort to bring him down a notch ended up removing his game altogether and, in essence, removing the satisfaction of playing the character.

I'll probably keep having what fun I can with him. He's a great asset in teams, so I'll keep sharp with him for 3.0 or whatever the next release is when he's got real tools to actually take a stock. But I don't think I'll be staying with him as my main any longer. Not that big of an issue to anyone else. Just voicing some concerns.

Well, it is hard to argue with that. Honestly, I've started to feel less enjoyment for the blue hedgehog as I kept practicing on playing him with lvl 9 CPUs (Which by the way is not helping me work better against actual people thanks to me not having any nearby friends that are good). Nevertheless, I did keep at it until recently... On a whim because I just felt like it, I decided to play as Fox against the cast because I might as well learn how to play as him to fully understand how to beat him. As I kept playing as him, I found that he was better at playing that same bait and pestering game that Sonic has in 2.6. When I finally did play against the Lvl 9 Sonic, I really didn't have any problem stopping Sonic because I can stop all of his moves with only just one of Fox's moves. (not counting his Shine.) Basically, Fox can do anything better that Sonic can do.

It's not just that, but I also found myself enjoying Mario, Snake, Link, Falcon, and Meta Knight more in 2.6 than Sonic because they had something that has the potential to take a stock like SuperTH said. The reason why it bugs me on this is because Sonic was going to be my main when he was announced for Brawl and I loved Sonic over all of the characters when I was a kid. Even to this day, I still love the blue hedgehog. I don't know, I've given him a try with team matches and he does pretty well at racking percents for his teammate... Again, I don't know... I really don't want to stop playing Sonic, but the performance comparisons I have with the other characters that I also do well as is against him for me.

So, there's my 2 cents, 25 cents, or my 2 dollars and change.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Well, it is hard to argue with that. Honestly, I've started to feel less enjoyment for the blue hedgehog as I kept practicing on playing him with lvl 9 CPUs (Which by the way is not helping me work better against actual people thanks to me not having any nearby friends that are good). Nevertheless, I did keep at it until recently... On a whim because I just felt like it, I decided to play as Fox against the cast because I might as well learn how to play as him to fully understand how to beat him. As I kept playing as him, I found that he was better at playing that same bait and pestering game that Sonic has in 2.6. When I finally did play against the Lvl 9 Sonic, I really didn't have any problem stopping Sonic because I can stop all of his moves with only just one of Fox's moves. (not counting his Shine.) Basically, Fox can do anything better that Sonic can do.

It's not just that, but I also found myself enjoying Mario, Snake, Link, Falcon, and Meta Knight more in 2.6 than Sonic because they had something that has the potential to take a stock like SuperTH said. The reason why it bugs me on this is because Sonic was going to be my main when he was announced for Brawl and I loved Sonic over all of the characters when I was a kid. Even to this day, I still love the blue hedgehog. I don't know, I've given him a try with team matches and he does pretty well at racking percents for his teammate... Again, I don't know... I really don't want to stop playing Sonic, but the performance comparisons I have with the other characters that I also do well as is against him for me.

So, there's my 2 cents, 25 cents, or my 2 dollars and change.

Gotta agree with you. I'm hardly competitive (I do basically the same thing as you for practice, and I haven't mastered a lot of the higher level techniques yet), but I can't even really have fun playing Sonic against my friends anymore. He's just an annoy-until-almost-anything-kills type of character now, and that really bothers me, since I was maining him, too (and have since I unlocked him in Brawl). I'd take him even if he was noticeably worse than he is even now, but I want to enjoy it again.

 

[Alex Night]

Well, it might be a while for me to enjoy him again until we get the next update to 2.7 or whichever they do next. I just finished looking at the official changelist for Project M 2.6b that is here on the forums.

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-demo-2-6b-released-changelist-up.340142/#post-15799912

I have no words...

 

[PseudoTypical]

Well, it might be a while for me to enjoy him again until we get the next update to 2.7 or whichever they do next. I just finished looking at the official changelist for Project M 2.6b that is here on the forums.

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-demo-2-6b-released-changelist-up.340142/#post-15799912

I have no words...

It hurt to read that. haha

I'd switch back to 2.5b Sonic until they fix him (I'm not planning on competing and practicing), but it's just too OP. I wish that someone could make a custom one that's more reasonable.

 

[GunBlaze]

Why did I get Brawl Falcon after installing 2.6b?

 

[PseudoTypical]

Why did I get Brawl Falcon after installing 2.6b?

Literally? I don't know. The changelist says he got slight buffs.

 

[GunBlaze]

Lliterally. Like, auto-moonwalk and SLOWASS FALL.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Lliterally. Like, auto-moonwalk and SLOWASS FALL.

Oh. haha

Make sure your FitCaptain.pac and FitCaptainMotionEtc.pac files are in.

 

[GunBlaze]

Oh. haha

Make sure your FitCaptain.pac and FitCaptainMotionEtc.pac files are in.

Fuuny, they DIDN'T COME in the package ;_;

I can has 'em?

 

[PseudoTypical]

Fuuny, they DIDN'T COME in the package ;_;

I can has 'em?

I have them. Try downloading again. PM me with any more problems so we don't clutter this place up, since it's just for Sonic.

 

[GunBlaze]

I have them. Try downloading again. PM me with any more problems so we don't clutter this place up, since it's just for Sonic.

Pwease gimme 'em. P:M 2 heavy.

 

[GHNeko]

Wizzrobe is a fraud. #kappa #notserious

I'm gonna give Sonic a shot today and join in in this discussion. I promise.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk 2

 

[Alex Night]

Wizzrobe is a fraud. #kappa #notserious

I'm gonna give Sonic a shot today and join in in this discussion. I promise.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk 2

Dat Kappa. I wish you luck, sir. The saltiness in this thread is astronomical.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Is it just me or can Sonic not short hop out of a Spin Dash? Is there some reason why he can't do that?

 

[Nazo]

Is it just me or can Sonic not short hop out of a Spin Dash? Is there some reason why he can't do that?

You know, I used to ask myself the same question. Although, Even if it was possible, I would imagine it to be quite strict considering Sonic's lack of actual jump-squat frames during spindash roll. I'm sure for whatever reason he can't do so is for a legit reason. I would list my reason for why you can't or why it would be bad but I don't want to be wrong and also have nothing to support it.

 

[Strong Badam]

He doesn't "Jump" technically, he goes into a SpindDashJump action. He is neither full hopping nor short hopping.

 

[leelue]

And to my limited knowledge it's controlled by a completely different mechanism than the one that lets squirtle short hop out of side b. Which is depressing.

 

[\Apples]

You know, I used to ask myself the same question. Although, Even if it was possible, I would imagine it to be quite strict considering Sonic's lack of actual jump-squat frames during spindash roll. I'm sure for whatever reason he can't do so is for a legit reason. I would list my reason for why you can't or why it would be bad but I don't want to be wrong and also have nothing to support it.

Nothing wrong with being wrong. Hell, the world would be a better place if more people weren't so afraid of being wrong...

ANYWAYS, if I had to guess, I'd say it's to make the act of using his Spin Dash more of a commitment, as it should be.

 

[leelue]

how would it not be a commitment? I don't follow

 

[\Apples]

more of a commitment

But apparently it's a tech issue, not a feature?

 

[SpiderMad]

And to my limited knowledge it's controlled by a completely different mechanism than the one that lets squirtle short hop out of side b. Which is depressing.

Huh? You mean the one where he's still in the shell right, just now in the air