Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Minor Pandemic]

I'd hate to play devil's advocate but... Yes, lol. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Sonic that feels this way though. I feel as though 2.5 HA was too polarizing offstage, especially against fallers. Also, considering how far out Sonic can travel offstage just makes HA all the more frightening.

That's totally fair. I didn't ask only expecting you to say no, thank you for your candid response.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

I agree, Sonic is fine the way he is no matter what anyone says

 

[Solharath]

Can you guys point me to your tournament results or video footage of your full sets? I'd like to see these styles of play and how they really work out, and the strength of your opponents.

I am wholly against your argument that Sonic must be played 'barbarian' style to be effective. If only one singular style can be employed by Sonic to be "effective", then he is a bad, one dimentional character and needs to be changed(I argue this same fact for Jigglypuff). Back when 2.5b Sonic was "spin-to-win", Sonic still had the ability to play at a slower, more defensive pace, using his tilts and speed to poke at his opponents - now, Ftilt is so bad it can be crouch-cancelled and grabbed because Sonic's legs just hang out there.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

These are matches against Bstuk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvNOL9XIFv8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8DC0ZVOMzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvrn2sT0VkE

 

[Tero.]

I agree, Sonic is fine the way he is no matter what anyone says

oh shut up, would you?
who are you anyway with your 30 posts and april 2013 join date. you really think you can tell people whats up?
srsly?

 

[GMaster171]

Not to start something here, but who are you asserting your 2500 posts as a justification to put others down for expressing their opinion?

Instead of dismissing him so bluntly, state your opinion (or if you have already) link him to something and explain why Sonic is not fine. Ask him to elaborate on why Sonic is fine and see if either of you can learn something.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Can you guys point me to your tournament results or video footage of your full sets? I'd like to see these styles of play and how they really work out, and the strength of your opponents.

I am wholly against your argument that Sonic must be played 'barbarian' style to be effective. If only one singular style can be employed by Sonic to be "effective", then he is a bad, one dimentional character and needs to be changed(I argue this same fact for Jigglypuff). Back when 2.5b Sonic was "spin-to-win", Sonic still had the ability to play at a slower, more defensive pace, using his tilts and speed to poke at his opponents - now, Ftilt is so bad it can be crouch-cancelled and grabbed because Sonic's legs just hang out there.

I think you misunderstood that portion of my post. I don't think that's the only way to play him, nor am I convinced that is the best way to play him. I simply wrote about my playstyle only because I wanted you to have a lens into the paradigm from which I'm forming my opinions. I'll be the first to say that my style is probably not the most effective, but I also think it's hard to assess the veracity of someone's opinions without understanding how they play, so I included that in my post. I'm sorry if it came off that I think my play is the only or best way, because that's not what I wanted to assert.

 

[Nazo]

Wow, the Sonic boards just got real.

 

[GHNeko]

Now now Tero. Play nice.

 

[GHNeko]

edit: double post damn quick reply.

 

[DireDrop]

It was even scarier in 2.5. Honestly, Sonic could fling himself offstage so carelessly, do all kinds of crazy gimpy spiky attack things, and still be entirely capable of making it back. IMO that part of Sonic's game was a bigger concern than his campy down b. He was unbeatable offstage.

Edit: this in response to the Homing attack discussion. I hadn't refreshed my browser and like 8 posts showed up.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Cool to see a lot of discussion in this thread.

 

[DireDrop]

Cool to see a lot of discussion in this thread.

Wizzy, how would you change Sonic?

 

[Ariyo]

Just gonna throw my wishlish out there for Sonic.
-I would actually like if Sonic became a fastfaller. Kind of similar to Falcon's P:M weight. (which i think is slightly off from melee, i'm probably wrong)
I just have a feeling more weight could make him even faster and i think thats way he should be. As fast as possible.
-More knockback on fair and bair is a given.
-Less recovery on ftilt wouldnt be bad. I mean, cmon.
-Up air could be one clean hit, but reduced knockback might have to happen for balance.
- I would almost say get rid of normal HA entirely and neutral B is always BA, but I'm not sure.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Wizzy, how would you change Sonic?

Give him actual kill power like in 2.5. Not one sweetspot of one move to kill. (it shouldn't of been changed) (this is the biggest problem with sonic)

and give him pressuring options.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

oh shut up, would you?
who are you anyway with your 30 posts and april 2013 join date. you really think you can tell people whats up?
srsly?

Now now, no need to need to get mad kind sir, I'm simply just stating how I feel about the character and sharing some stuff to the other guys. Its just a matter of opinion Silly Tero.

 

[Alex Night]

Just gonna throw my wishlish out there for Sonic.
-I would actually like if Sonic became a fastfaller. Kind of similar to Falcon's P:M weight. (which i think is slightly off from melee, i'm probably wrong)
I just have a feeling more weight could make him even faster and i think thats way he should be. As fast as possible.
-More knockback on fair and bair is a given.
-Less recovery on ftilt wouldnt be bad. I mean, cmon.
-Up air could be one clean hit, but reduced knockback might have to happen for balance.
- I would almost say get rid of normal HA entirely and neutral B is always BA, but I'm not sure.

Could you specify a bit on the less recovery part of Ftilt? Do you mean less frames for him to do the attack or something else? Also, replacing the HA entirely would shift his game too much and Sonic needs the HA to recover because just air Side B and Up B won't cut it. Besides, using the BA seems more situational than Homing Attack is.

 

[batistabus]

Sonic needs the HA to recover because just air Side B and Up B won't cut it. Besides, using the BA seems more situational than Homing Attack is.

He could still recover with BA, it would just be a set trajectory. It could even snap the edge like Fox/Falco's side-b. It would need to be faster (and probably farther), of course. IMO this should be a situational move....an automated move shouldn't be a staple of someone's move-set.

 

[Solharath]

Yes, because moves with odd mechanics shouldn't be a staple of a character's moveset. So you know, screw Peach's Down B, Luigi and Mr. GnW's Side Bs. It's a good thing those moves that do not follow the same train of thought with the rest of the game aren't at all staples.

Sarcasm aside, I don't mean to offend, but it shouldn't be up to anyone to say what should and should not be a staple of a move-set, no matter of mechanics. You know what's a completely gimmicky move that was built to be situational? Shine. You got tons of people crying foul over that, because it's secondary function became it's primary function, and indeed became a staple of Fox and Falco's moveset, but you have a lot of people defending Shine as well. The dev's likely aren't going to be changing Shine much more, and it's certainly a lot more versitile than Homing Attack is at this point. Just because this move is automated doesn't make it so it has to be less viable. It's different, and for the love of Smash Different is Good. Special Moves are where a character can shine(no pun intended), and really show off how different they are. This is where unique aspects truly come to light. Sonic's moveset is a good example of special moves, although I would actually change aerial down B to Bounce/Stomp and bring back or find a happy medium between 2.6 SM and 2.5b SM. Personally allowing us to jump right out of SM would be a night and day difference. Also SM is always the same if you're rising, which kills it's versatility. I should be able to SM out of a short hop and drop like a rock, not forced into a hop no matter how hard or light I press the button. But that's a digression for another time.

If anything, Homing Attack's speed should be buffed, but the angle is fine, as is the cool down. Also, I'd like to see Blast Attack with a different trajectory than what it is now. Right now it is too helpful for recovery. HA should be the more useful recovery option, and Blast Attack shouldn't be such a free recovery move. Sonic's recovery is mostly fine(his Up+B losing invincibility at the start destroys his ability to deal with pressure like a lot of Nair's), and his Up+B is actually broken slightly in animation as Sonic sort of teleports into his Spring before launching(unless he's grounded), which more likely than not hurts his ability to escape pressure even more because he's not pushing himself closer to an opponent just before he takes off.

Moving on, Darky, I looked up BSTUK during the matches I watched and I'm not entirely persuaded that you have a good grasp on just how poor Sonic's options are against more competent opponents. He's certainly learning, but I had just come off four sets against my sparring partner, Robjoe, who indeed plays R.O.B. as well, and I could just pick out all the exceptionally poor decisions he made as a R.O.B. player and as a player in general that might be skewing your opinion of Sonic's strengths. It took three matches for BSTUK to start meteor cancelling your Fair, and he DI'd down a lot in mid air and ate the worst possible trajectory's with your bairs. You're fairly competent at stringing together some moves, and you have a good grasp on the range and power of fair, which is important, but the scary thing about fighting an opponent who better knows the matchup, or just knows Sonic's priority is for utter crap, you wouldn't have preformed so well. Next time you see BSTUK, work together and help him use R.O.B.'s laser, as I don't really recall him using the non-SuperRoboBeam version. It's a great move and fantastic at interrupting and completely gimping Sonic's recovery. Also, he needs to work on grabs and grab-followups.

And Minor, I read your post, you didn't really assert that barbarian style was the best way, but you did argue that the backroom should not do anything to Sonic because it wouldn't truly affect the way you play, even though other playstyles have suffered greatly as a result of the nerf. It had little to do with effectiveness and more to do with the overall versatility of the character. Being unable to change your playstyle on the fly is a sign of a weak character, especially when his best playstyle is only average and at higher percents, none of your moves link together because an opponent gets sent too far to follow up with anything because Sonic's priority is too low to combat most moves that are thrown out against him.

Also, Back Room - if you're reading this - what's up with Sonic's spring still not having a hitbox when it's bouncing around on stage? The animation is there, and it'd help Sonic get a little more breathing space if he chooses to escape with it. It's not a particularly powerful hitbox to begin with, but it's really tacky if it floats around on stage for an extra second and just sort of exists.

 

[batistabus]

Yes, because moves with odd mechanics shouldn't be a staple of a character's moveset. So you know, screw Peach's Down B, Luigi and Mr. GnW's Side Bs. It's a good thing those moves that do not follow the same train of thought with the rest of the game aren't at all staples.

Sarcasm aside, I don't mean to offend, but it shouldn't be up to anyone to say what should and should not be a staple of a move-set, no matter of mechanics. You know what's a completely gimmicky move that was built to be situational? Shine. You got tons of people crying foul over that, because it's secondary function became it's primary function, and indeed became a staple of Fox and Falco's moveset, but you have a lot of people defending Shine as well. The dev's likely aren't going to be changing Shine much more, and it's certainly a lot more versitile than Homing Attack is at this point. Just because this move is automated doesn't make it so it has to be less viable. It's different, and for the love of Smash Different is Good. Special Moves are where a character can shine(no pun intended), and really show off how different they are.

I don't know why so many Sonic fans are so intent on Sonic being a completely unique character. This was a defense of his 2.5 tactics, but let's face it, Sonic isn't very special. The most unique thing about him is his speed, so that should be the focus (in my opinion of course, feel free to disagree). He doesn't need some gimmick that doesn't apply to any other character or have precedent in Smash.

Peach, Luigi, and G/W have random moves, but they are not automated. You still have to place them properly. That is my problem with homing attack; you have to be in range, but it's like having an insanely large hitbox (also it's not dependable). There is something extremely unsatisfying about a move like that, and that's my point. Smash is all about precision and movement use to make your moves hit the way you need them too. The character with the fastest movement and a lot of movement tricks (crazy moonwalk, d-air) shouldn't need something like this. I don't see how shine applies to this at all, as it requires very precise placement. My problem isn't the repeated exploitation of the move, it's in the nature of the move. Sine has it's own problems, but the way the move functions is good.

This is just my philosophy on the move, and has nothing to do with balance or viability.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Thanks for the feedback SuperTH! I'll work on it!

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Btw, Homing attack isn't Sonic's only option to recover...he also can still spinshot.

 

[Alex Night]

Yes, because moves with odd mechanics shouldn't be a staple of a character's moveset. So you know, screw Peach's Down B, Luigi and Mr. GnW's Side Bs. It's a good thing those moves that do not follow the same train of thought with the rest of the game aren't at all staples.

Sarcasm aside, I don't mean to offend, but it shouldn't be up to anyone to say what should and should not be a staple of a move-set, no matter of mechanics. You know what's a completely gimmicky move that was built to be situational? Shine. You got tons of people crying foul over that, because it's secondary function became it's primary function, and indeed became a staple of Fox and Falco's moveset, but you have a lot of people defending Shine as well. The dev's likely aren't going to be changing Shine much more, and it's certainly a lot more versitile than Homing Attack is at this point. Just because this move is automated doesn't make it so it has to be less viable. It's different, and for the love of Smash Different is Good. Special Moves are where a character can shine(no pun intended), and really show off how different they are. This is where unique aspects truly come to light. Sonic's moveset is a good example of special moves, although I would actually change aerial down B to Bounce/Stomp and bring back or find a happy medium between 2.6 SM and 2.5b SM. Personally allowing us to jump right out of SM would be a night and day difference. Also SM is always the same if you're rising, which kills it's versatility. I should be able to SM out of a short hop and drop like a rock, not forced into a hop no matter how hard or light I press the button. But that's a digression for another time.

If anything, Homing Attack's speed should be buffed, but the angle is fine, as is the cool down. Also, I'd like to see Blast Attack with a different trajectory than what it is now. Right now it is too helpful for recovery. HA should be the more useful recovery option, and Blast Attack shouldn't be such a free recovery move. Sonic's recovery is mostly fine(his Up+B losing invincibility at the start destroys his ability to deal with pressure like a lot of Nair's), and his Up+B is actually broken slightly in animation as Sonic sort of teleports into his Spring before launching(unless he's grounded), which more likely than not hurts his ability to escape pressure even more because he's not pushing himself closer to an opponent just before he takes off.

And Minor, I read your post, you didn't really assert that barbarian style was the best way, but you did argue that the backroom should not do anything to Sonic because it wouldn't truly affect the way you play, even though other playstyles have suffered greatly as a result of the nerf. It had little to do with effectiveness and more to do with the overall versatility of the character. Being unable to change your playstyle on the fly is a sign of a weak character, especially when his best playstyle is only average and at higher percents, none of your moves link together because an opponent gets sent too far to follow up with anything because Sonic's priority is too low to combat most moves that are thrown out against him.

Also, Back Room - if you're reading this - what's up with Sonic's spring still not having a hitbox when it's bouncing around on stage? The animation is there, and it'd help Sonic get a little more breathing space if he chooses to escape with it. It's not a particularly powerful hitbox to begin with, but it's really tacky if it floats around on stage for an extra second and just sort of exists.

lol The Spring feels alone out there on Battlefield. "Can I play, guys? No? Okay..."

A bounce would be an awesome move for Sonic, but the problem is having Spinshot still available without air Spin Dash. Maybe there is a way, but I don't know what it is. Still, Bouncing is a dangerous move, especially when Tigger is involved. lol

He could still recover with BA, it would just be a set trajectory. It could even snap the edge like Fox/Falco's side-b. It would need to be faster (and probably farther), of course. IMO this should be a situational move....an automated move shouldn't be a staple of someone's move-set.

I don't know why so many Sonic fans are so intent on Sonic being a completely unique character. This was a defense of his 2.5 tactics, but let's face it, Sonic isn't very special. The most unique thing about him is his speed, so that should be the focus (in my opinion of course, feel free to disagree). He doesn't need some gimmick that doesn't apply to any other character or have precedent in Smash.

Peach, Luigi, and G/W have random moves, but they are not automated. You still have to place them properly. That is my problem with homing attack; you have to be in range, but it's like having an insanely large hitbox (also it's not dependable). There is something extremely unsatisfying about a move like that, and that's my point. Smash is all about precision and movement use to make your moves hit the way you need them too. The character with the fastest movement and a lot of movement tricks (crazy moonwalk, d-air) shouldn't need something like this. I don't see how shine applies to this at all, as it requires very precise placement. My problem isn't the repeated exploitation of the move, it's in the nature of the move. Sine has it's own problems, but the way the move functions is good.

This is just my philosophy on the move, and has nothing to do with balance or viability.

Neither is Ike, but there is a niche group that does see him as very special. I don't see how Homing Attack doesn't have any precedence in Smash or how it doesn't apply to any character. If we're gonna make an arguement like that, then we should look at Ivysaur and how he can heal himself with half of his moves. If you're not finding Homing Attack dependable, then you might not be using it in the right places. At this moment, Blast Attack is not a useful gimping tool and trajectory along with distance deems it as more of a mix-up than an actual good recovery/attack option on its own. You can still tech into the stage with Homing Attack to get behind an opponent's edge guard and punish them for it. I know I might not be debating against your philosophy with my attempt at logic and what works for him at this moment, but that's where I want to go.

I understand that it is your opinion, even though I don't think it is the right direction for Sonic.

Btw, Homing attack isn't Sonic's only option to recover...he also can still spinshot.

I still don't get how you do Spin Shot in Project M since I'm doing the same Down B > C Stick up while in the air that was in Brawl. Either the inputs are different or the timing is so ap8uf;lakjfoia; precise.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

the inputs are the same its just that you have to do it faster now.

 

[Solharath]

Spinshot was great in Brawl, but I find it to be extremely risky to use your double jump at ANY time, especially with a jump arc that you cannot change. Holding sideB gives you a horizontal jump, but you can tap it and get a boost of horizontal momentum and drop. Spinshot is a good last resort, though, I won't argue that. It's good for recovering high. Solid mixup option!

Bastistabus, I cannot disagree with you more. Every character should be unique. Sonic is already unique, but bringing him back down to be some muddy mediocrity is exactly what Smash isn't about. If Sonic isn't very special, then we should be looking to make him more special. The same goes for every character and it can be argued that it's the very reason these General Discussion topics exist.

 

[Alex Night]

the inputs are the same its just that you have to do it faster now.

Are we talking like 1/10 of a second input because that seriously does not sit well with me... I'm doing the same Down B > C Stick input at 1/4 speed in training and I'm still getting no Spin Shot.

 

[GunBlaze]

Are we talking like 1/10 of a second input because that seriously does not sit well with me... I'm doing the same Down B > C Stick input at 1/4 speed in training and I'm still getting no Spin Shot.

Because C-Stick is ****ed up in training when playing at those speeds

 

[batistabus]

Neither is Ike, but there is a niche group that does see him as very special. I don't see how Homing Attack doesn't have any precedence in Smash or how it doesn't apply to any character. If we're gonna make an arguement like that, then we should look at Ivysaur and how he can heal himself with half of his moves. If you're not finding Homing Attack dependable, then you might not be using it in the right places. At this moment, Blast Attack is not a useful gimping tool and trajectory along with distance deems it as more of a mix-up than an actual good recovery/attack option on its own.

The unprecedented comment was about the type of gameplay encouraged in 2.5, not homing attack in particular. That aside, elements can be unique (such as Ivysaur's healing ability) as long as they don't fundamentally change the way you fight your opponent or your opponent fights you (which was the case in 2.5).

As for Blast Attack, I'm talking about changes I would like to see made, not how it currently is.

Bastistabus, I cannot disagree with you more. Every character should be unique. Sonic is already unique, but bringing him back down to be some muddy mediocrity is exactly what Smash isn't about. If Sonic isn't very special, then we should be looking to make him more special. The same goes for every character and it can be argued that it's the very reason these General Discussion topics exist.

Sonic being so fast is already unique enough. Speed is an extremely desirable trait in Smash, so the fact that he is the fastest but doesn't necessarily kill well makes him very unique. He's an extreme, and represents the opposite of someone like Ganon or Bowser (someone with not-so-good movement and a hard time getting in, but great killing potential). I'm not sure what you're talking about with "muddy mediocrity".

Throughout the history of the Sonic boards, it seems like too many people are just asking for buffs because they don't feel they're being rewarded enough for what they're doing...and that's just too bad. It seems that, instead of working around the problem or trying to use Sonic's strong strengths to cover for his admittedly strong weaknesses, some are just asking for buffs. As far as I can see it, Sonic is a character of extremes, and I think that is very cool. Ideally, Sonic should be a character that isn't accessible to most. I'm not accusing you or anyone speaking right now of that in particular, but it's just something I've noticed, and I've even been guilty about myself.

I'm not saying attacks like spin-dash and homing attacks are too good, too bad, too situational, or whatever. I'm just saying they detract from what I feel makes Sonic so unique, and what "works" about the Melee environment.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

I'm sure nobody will care about what I have to say, since nobody in the P:M community really knows me that well or has heard of me, but I agree with SuperTH. I wouldn't use "muddy mediocrity" to describe current Sonic, rather I'd just use "****ty". If you wanna talk about extremes, he's gone from a debatable top tier, to near rock bottom. He's no longer tournament viable, and I'm sure his money placements will show that. While batistabus states that he's a polar opposite of Ganon/Bowser, he...really isn't as opposite as you'd think. While his grounded movement and speed are good, his options are unreliable, he doesn't have an easy time getting in, and currently shares reminiscence of Brawl Sonics style of gameplay. He no longer retains any good pressuring options, and has no reliable kill setups. Why would people want to use a character that operates like Brawl Sonic in a game that's based off of Melee? In fact, I'd rather use Brawl Sonic in Project:M over 2.6 Sonic. Maybe people are asking for buffs because of how extreme the nerfs were? Sonic is a character of extremes, so I guess his buffs and nerfs shouldn't be any different. Fundamentally and mechanically the character was extremely changed. Some of the nerfs were warranted, due to it being absolutely ********, broken, and braindead easy to execute. But some of the nerfs were absolutely unnecessary.

And besides, why should P:M care about "what works about the Melee environment"? The P:M team is developing their own game here. While the game is based on Melee, more characters are completely new with uniquely created movesets in comparison to carbon copy Melee characters. Project:M isn't Melee, and I'm sure the P:M devs aren't trying to recreate a game that already exists.

 

[DireDrop]

I'm sure nobody will care about what I have to say, since nobody in the P:M community really knows me that well or has heard of me.

I care about you MeekSpeedy.

I agree though. It's especially irritating to see these nerfs in an environment where characters like Fox, Falco, Marth... etc. are allowed to keep their exceptional move sets. Marth's FSmash, Dair, and up-tilt are way better kill moves than anything Sonic has. Fox has his UpSmash and Uair, and Falco has his Dair and FSmash. And Captain Falcon, who IMO has the most similar play style to Sonic's, has his Dair and the almighty knee.

Like others have said, people don't have much to fear from Sonic. When you're staring down a Marth, you know there are half a dozen ways he can make you dead, right now, if you mess up. Sonic just doesn't have that same lethality.

Edit: And I feel I should say, that lethality is what makes Melee so great. Fast, technical, and Lethal. Your stock should always be in jeopardy, even at low percents. It's what makes the game such a rush to play. For me anyway.

And one last thing. I do feel that, despite our complaints, the PM team has done an excellent job with this game so far. I highly doubt that they're just sitting around congratulating each other on Roy. I'm sure in the next update we'll see some changes, and for the better. The PM team is too smart to let a character slide, especially one as popular as Sonic.

 

[cmart]

Do people who have trouble with spinshot have tapjump off? I find it ridiculously easy with tapjump.

 

[Bombitty]

It's ridiculously easy without tapjump as well.

I still don't get how you do Spin Shot in Project M since I'm doing the same Down B > C Stick up while in the air that was in Brawl. Either the inputs are different or the timing is so ap8uf;lakjfoia; precise.

Try just using a jump button as soon as you start the spin instead of c-stick. Thats the method I use and its way more consistent for me than c-stick. But yes, the timing is somewhat precise. Nothing you can't nail down with <15 minutes of practice though.

 

[Nausicaa]

When you're staring down a Marth, you know there are half a dozen ways he can make you dead, right now, if you mess up.

1st) That's a very direct and awesome way of putting it. Kudos!

2nd) The reason this isn't a factor with Sonic...
(it isn't with most characters really, and even when developed, that's kind of Marth's extreme and flavor anyway)
...is that he's so incredibly underdeveloped...
(and has been from 2.1 to now, even in 2.5 when he was 'good', he was linearized and the dynamics of his game never even began to really flush out [they didn't have to with the polarizing way he could be functionally played])
...and requires an extreme of processing to take stocks.
Think of Pika, and how many precise decisions he has to make and execute moment-to-moment to accomplish what almost any other character can link a few hits in and get 'something' done just as much.
Which he CAN do, undeniably, with this kind of speed and these kind of tools.

Same with Sonic, since 2.1, and still today.
There is not going to be a go-to BNB to make anything work. Even Pika having an Up-Smash that kills at 0%, it's still only a small, singular, and situation-based part of what makes his stock-taking process work, and what's involved in it. Whether it's chaining things oddly rising, or edge-guarding between on/off stage traps and forces, to whatever. There may be more common 'occurrences' for some maneuvers than others, but this isn't the same has having more functional 'maneuvers' for some occurrences over others.

In other words, the way you proceed > what you proceed with. This WILL involve 20 more hits than another character would need to kill someone a certain way, but this also WILL involve the ability to kill someone a certain way that those characters couldn't.

Sonic is fine, and I appreciate this incarnation of him better than both 2.1 and 2.5 for all practical and creative reasons because of this.
Hope that all made sense, some big words in there. :/

 

[DireDrop]

1st) That's a very direct and awesome way of putting it. Kudos!

Thanks!

I don't know if I like the idea of Sonic needing to do 20 moves to kill someone though, when top tier characters can kill in 5-6. It's not efficient. I feel that remains true for all the underpowered characters. I can't speak about him in relation to PM Pikachu as I don't know the character yet. It's fine if he's a demanding character, but we're not sure if the reward is worth the demand (yet).

Totally off-topic. Does anyone else use side-b to ledgehog? There aren't many vids out there, so maybe people are doing it and I don't know, but I figured I'd mention it just in case. It's so much easier than turning around and wave dashing, especially if your running towards a ledge to get there before someone recovers.

 

[Alex Night]

Thanks!

I don't know if I like the idea of Sonic needing to do 20 moves to kill someone though, when top tier characters can kill in 5-6. It's not efficient. I feel that remains true for all the underpowered characters. I can't speak about him in relation to PM Pikachu as I don't know the character yet. It's fine if he's a demanding character, but we're not sure if the reward is worth the demand (yet).

Totally off-topic. Does anyone else use side-b to ledgehog? There aren't many vids out there, so maybe people are doing it and I don't know, but I figured I'd mention it just in case. It's so much easier than turning around and wave dashing, especially if your running towards a ledge to get there before someone recovers.

Yeah, it's too bad that you can't instant-edgehog like you could with Sonic in Brawl. Does that Side b ledgehog work well? I might just use it if it does work as I would love to do anything that can snap the ledge quickly from your enemies.

Also, accidentally found a way to Spin shot in Project M during my time of frustration. Tap jump off just makes things easier.

 

[Wizzrobe]

The argument that Sonic's spindash doesn't fit in a melee environment is so stupid. Sonic has all this stuff in brawl and the game is fine. The only main difference is that sonic's spindash is actually good in PM (or was) so now it's considered unfitting.

Plenty of melee chars have stuff that other chars don't that is broken like IC's wobbling, Fox/falco's shine, for example.

 

[Archangel]

The argument that Sonic's spindash doesn't fit in a melee environment is so stupid. Sonic has all this stuff in brawl and the game is fine. The only main difference is that sonic's spindash is actually good in PM (or was) so now it's considered unfitting.

Plenty of melee chars have stuff that other chars don't that is broken like IC's wobbling, Fox/falco's shine, for example.

Wobbling is so ********. Sonic did have his own version of wobbling that I called the electric slide. I was happy when I found they were getting rid of it in 2.6. With that said...this current version of Sonic is sad.

It's like if they nerfed falco's lasers and made them fox lasers, made it so he could JC his shine, took away the invincibility from his smash attacks, and nerfed his Dair and made it a meteor with the PAL hitbox during its second half. Then they randomly made his Fair a little better and released him calling it improvements.

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but I pretty much see Sonic as like....a character that got bitchslapped with the nerf glove.

 

[Alex Night]

Funny thing that I found out today is that somehow, Sonic's Down B and the hit from his Upthrow beats Jigglypuff's Rollout. I lol'd so hard.

 

[DireDrop]

Yeah, it's too bad that you can't instant-edgehog like you could with Sonic in Brawl. Does that Side b ledgehog work well? I might just use it if it does work as I would love to do anything that can snap the ledge quickly from your enemies.

It's not as fast as Brawl ledge grabbing, but it's very fast! I highly recommend trying it out. If you're relatively far away from the ledge, say the middle of Green Greens, you can just slam on the control stick to run to the ledge, then slam right back and hit B, you'll be on that ledge super fast! I mean... the alternative option is to run almost to the ledge, then crouch cancel -> turn around -> Wave dash backwards. That's slower and much more difficult to execute. It's new technology that could give us a bit of an edge over the rest of the cast.

 

[Alex Night]

It's not as fast as Brawl ledge grabbing, but it's very fast! I highly recommend trying it out. If you're relatively far away from the ledge, say the middle of Green Greens, you can just slam on the control stick to run to the ledge, then slam right back and hit B, you'll be on that ledge super fast! I mean... the alternative option is to run almost to the ledge, then crouch cancel -> turn around -> Wave dash backwards. That's slower and much more difficult to execute. It's new technology that could give us a bit of an edge over the rest of the cast.

That is true; you won't always grab the ledge with Wavedash ledge-hogging. It can be quite... FATAL! Anyways, I want to see all of these techniques that people say Sonic can do with his amazing speed at high level play. I am planning to try it out with some pre-tournament friendlies a week before WHOBO 5.

Also, I did some experimenting in training with Sonic vs Jigglypuff. Jiggs can CC Sonic's Dtilt up to 84% and his Utilt up to 68%...