Sonic DOES NOT suck!!!

[lil cj]

Ive noticed that everyone is saying that Sonic sucks.
That is completely false

Ive just started using him, and really enjoy his play style, he is very fun to play
In most of the battles Ive played online with friends, I win mostly all of them mostly hitting and running.My opponents underestimate Sonic for some reason.

I beat someone who used an Ike(easy match up, he is way too slow to fight Sonic) and I even beat someone's Zero Suit Samus(that one was easy too, if her attacks miss she can be easily punished).

So just b/c he has no good KO moves(neither does Sheik and shes deadly) doesnt mean he is low tier or that he sucks.

U just got to play him differently than you would some other character.
one word...SPEED is all you need(no rhyme intended)

These r words of a Sonic noob...lol

Any other Sonic mains/pros feel this way too
Can we discuss this

 

[IceDX]

hey im with ya all the way on that, Sonic Rocks!!! this is coming from a guy that goes to tourneys all the time.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

He's not the best, or the worst. He has a lot of horrible matchups, but isn't completely unplayable. Bottom of mid tier is about right.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

This is coming from a Sonic main. Sonic can be a mosnter if you poperly in a match. And also he sin't that, and beside you can't be low tier if you have little to no lag on your air and have a huge mindgames playstyle.

 

[Wildfire393]

So just b/c he has no good KO moves(neither does Sheik and shes deadly) doesnt mean he is low tier or that he sucks.

The difference here is that Sheik has a powerful combo in the Tilt Lock that, against many characters, can quickly rack up 60-100%. And roughly every one of Sheik's good moves (Dtilt, jab, Uptilt, Throws at 0%, Nair, bair, Fair) set up into it. Sheik also has several other guaranteed combos that can rack up a lot of damage very quickly (Jab Lock, Chain Drag, Ftilt-Footstool-Bair-Needles-Techchase) on just about every character. Sheik also has a powerful harassment projectile.

Sonic, on the other hand, has nothing even remotely comparable.

 

[OverlordCrono]

It is sad how I hardly see anyone who uses Sonic at tournaments besides me. Sure, he's not the best character, but I believe Sonic has much hidden potential, and once that finally shows, he'll be an amazing contender. :D

 

[Umby]

Sonic sucks compared to most of the cast. Just because someone is able to go beast mode with him doesn't change the fact.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Sonic does suck.

Which is why it's so amazing when I win with him :D

 

[Fatmanonice]

Sonic's not the worst but he's not the best either. I'd personally put him in the low tier, slightly above Ike. Heck, there are good players with every character but that doesn't change how they are overall. Sonic has very little KO potential, his aerials aren't that great and his aerial mobility is among the worst in the game, he's not that hard to edgehog, and his speed actually hinders him more than helps. If you can do good with him, more power to you but he's still not that great of a character. Hey, at least he's not Yoshi...

 

[Umby]

He's not easily edgehogged though.

 

[Tenki]

The difference here is that Sheik has a powerful combo in the Tilt Lock that, against many characters, can quickly rack up 60-100%. And roughly every one of Sheik's good moves (Dtilt, jab, Uptilt, Throws at 0%, Nair, bair, Fair) set up into it. Sheik also has several other guaranteed combos that can rack up a lot of damage very quickly (Jab Lock, Chain Drag, Ftilt-Footstool-Bair-Needles-Techchase) on just about every character. Sheik also has a powerful harassment projectile.

Sonic, on the other hand, has nothing even remotely comparable.

I'm pretty sure there are ways to get out of a tilt lock. I haven't tried it myself yet, but I read something in the Sheik boards about DI'ing downwards and shielding a tilt, then grabbing. I've seen Tristan_Win say to SDI toward Sheik to get out of a tilt lock.

Spindashes, with their cancels, are pretty versatile and can be used to bait a reaction to setup for a grab, or punish landing (or post-attack) lag. They also tend to be used for quick 15-30 damage combos, while sometimes setting up for other juggles for light damage/disruption/punishment, so racking up damage isn't exactly the hardest thing to do for Sonic.

Sonic has jab lock, D-throw>techchase/jablock/spindash combo. And he has a disruptor with spring.

They play differently though, so you can't exactly project your style onto the other character and totally compare them move-for-move.

Sonic's not the worst but he's not the best either. I'd personally put him in the low tier, slightly above Ike. Heck, there are good players with every character but that doesn't change how they are overall. Sonic has very little KO potential, his aerials aren't that great and his aerial mobility is among the worst in the game, he's not that hard to edgehog, and his speed actually hinders him more than helps. If you can do good with him, more power to you but he's still not that great of a character. Hey, at least he's not Yoshi...

Honestly, that post looked like it boiled down to:
"i suck with sonic and yoshi therefore they suck".

~.~ What's wrong with Yoshi? I've met some good Yoshi players and I really don't think he's that bad. Eggs disrupt, smashes have decent reach, he has good aerial mobility, an aerial grab/disruptor, and a decent-speed short tether grab.

How does Sonic's speed hinder him, if that's what allows him to get around his priority problems and boosts his techchase and punishment game? Each character has traits that can be used to supplement a certain playstyle while discouraging others. Sonic tends to fail in the straightforward move-vs-move game, while doing better when it comes to grabbing people, doing combos, gimping, and well... camping.

Then after that, it all boils down to how the player takes advantage of his strengths and weaknesses. However, people's opinion on how good the character is depends on how much of the game these strengths and weaknesses are apparent.

allow me to strawman to exaggerate my point...

Game with alot of projectile camping and running:
"omg metaknight sux at camping with projectiles!11 pit is a better character."
Game where MK stays close to his opponents:
"omgf metaknight has 2 much priority! mk for snake tier!!!"


>_>

Anyway, in a straightforward game and in a tl;dr manner,
sonic does suck :3

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

well sonic does suck, but not when i play him ;3
Also once you get around it sonic doesn't have that many bad match-ups, you just need to make a strategy for fighting them. for example, i used to get owned by snake all the time i made a strategy so i can shut down all of his moves, btw most of the strategy leads to chyper grabs

 

[lil cj]

Thanks for discussing this
But I still dont see how he sucks...
He seems like he has alot of potential
and nintendo put Sonic in the game for a reason
and made him the hardest character to unlock....
so that might prove something later on
as Sonics metagame develops

 

[lil cj]

It is sad how I hardly see anyone who uses Sonic at tournaments besides me. Sure, he's not the best character, but I believe Sonic has much hidden potential, and once that finally shows, he'll be an amazing contender. :D

I agree 100%

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

Thanks for discussing this
But I still dont see how he sucks...
He seems like he has alot of potential
and nintendo put Sonic in the game for a reason
and made him the hardest character to unlock....
so that might prove something later on
as Sonics metagame develops

I know how you feel, must people only say that because of his match-ups but ether sonic is still awesome, and something tells me that the meta game is gonna be changing REAL big soon, maybe some new tech with spin-dash you could never know.

 

[Tenki]

I found it!

ASC > shield cancel.

okay we're done.

Next up:
Spring>jablock. GO!

just kidding. (even though spring>jablock DOES exist)

I'm gonna go work a bit with springs and try to map out what you can do with em and at what %'s =)

There are some pretty awesome spring techs you can do with a teammate too lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I found it!

ASC > shield cancel.

okay we're done.

Next up:
Spring>jablock. GO!

just kidding. (even though spring>jablock DOES exist)

I'm gonna go work a bit with springs and try to map out what you can do with em and at what %'s =)

There are some pretty awesome spring techs you can do with a teammate too lol

Speaking of the ASC to Shield Cancel. Sometimes it doesn't work. Do I need to hold shield EARLIER or is it because I'm holding a direction or what?

 

[Tenki]

Speaking of the ASC to Shield Cancel. Sometimes it doesn't work. Do I need to hold shield EARLIER or is it because I'm holding a direction or what?

probably hold it earlier.

You can hold it for the duration of the move and it won't really change anything until you land.

Also, don't hold [back] while landing, cause then, you'll do a turnaround instead of a shield.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

Next up:
Spring>jablock. GO!

just kidding. (even though spring>jablock DOES exist)

I just found out about this the other day, i have semi mastered it and am pissing my friend soff so much xD

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

So, let's wait see how the game itself devolp. But I understand isn't tight or crappy. But he only has like 4 or 5 bad match ups if you ask me.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Spring to jab lock? Tell me more?

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic, on the surface, has more weaknesses than most characters. As of now, I'm predicting mid tier. I have no clue how Sonic's ground speed hinders anything though. I understand what you mean lil cj, but I think as you come to learn more about brawl and smash bros in general, you'd see why he is generally considered not so great. Just because nintendo made him the last character does not mean he will be good. Nintendo, and Sakurai for that matter, really has no clue /don't care about tiers and how they'll end up and junk. I bet they try t make characters balanced, but with the effects of glitches and techniques they probably had no clue about (like wavedashing in melee), things may turn out very different than how they were intended.

I still need to play like really good people I guess because I have yet to find so many truly unfair match ups against my Sonic. Not that I don't lose, I just don't feel like I'm losing cuz the other character has an advantage. Possible exceptions are pika luigi and wario, but thats it for me, and even those are manageable if I think straight and adjust my gameplay right.

 

[MalcolmM]

mewtwo and game & watch were the two hardest characters to unlock in melee....and they were two of the lowest on the tier list.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What's your point? Sonic was like the third guy I unlocked.

 

[The H Kid]

Sonics not bad, just look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnS4zR-A-Mw&feature=related

 

[lil cj]

Sonics not bad, just look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnS4zR-A-Mw&feature=related

lol...now that waz funny

 

[R4ZE]

haha... let me take a moment to disprove some common misconceptions about sonic

1. lack of killing moves
-sonic has about 5 or 6 moves that can kill, not to mention huge gimping and chasing skills. metaknight was also commonly said to have a lack of killing moves as well, and from what i can tell.. mk is one of the ebst chars in the game, am i wrong?

2. LAck of priority
sonic only has a lack of range, so basicly his hurt box is always pretty much exactly where his hit box is
solution: use ur speed to out priority things. as in, wait for openings, and time your strikes, there is a reason that sonic is one of the most mobile characters.

sonic can also cancel his spins, or hold them as long as he wants, use this to ur advantage.


3. Sonic dies easily

i find this completely untrue, i usually live to 180% or 200% about, its all about avoiding moves that would kill you, and using your sheild, air dodge, and up-b whenever you know ur about to eat it. and also knowing how to beat out enemy attacks, and not running straight into them with ur hit box and hurt box, because usually sonic cant beat out people attack vs attack... noob.

kthx. thats all.

oh yea, one last thing.... there is still a lot for all of us to learn with sonic.. he is full of ticksies.

 

[lil cj]

haha... let me take a moment to disprove some common misconceptions about sonic

1. lack of killing moves
-sonic has about 5 or 6 moves that can kill, not to mention huge gimping and chasing skills. metaknight was also commonly said to have a lack of killing moves as well, and from what i can tell.. mk is one of the ebst chars in the game, am i wrong?

2. LAck of priority
sonic only has a lack of range, so basicly his hurt box is always pretty much exactly where his hit box is
solution: use ur speed to out priority things. as in, wait for openings, and time your strikes, there is a reason that sonic is one of the most mobile characters.

sonic can also cancel his spins, or hold them as long as he wants, use this to ur advantage.


3. Sonic dies easily

i find this completely untrue, i usually live to 180% or 200% about, its all about avoiding moves that would kill you, and using your sheild, air dodge, and up-b whenever you know ur about to eat it. and also knowing how to beat out enemy attacks, and not running straight into them with ur hit box and hurt box, because usually sonic cant beat out people attack vs attack... noob.

kthx. thats all.

oh yea, one last thing.... there is still a lot for all of us to learn with sonic.. he is full of ticksies.

Good observations u taught me alot about Sonic(Im a noob...lol)
As for Metaknight being one of best, yeah I agree...he is fast and broken
and very spammable. but he has a huge weakness, he is a light weight and can be easily Ko'd.
As for Sonic...yeah i agree he is a beast.

 

[da K.I.D.]

For the record i just won a tourney with sonic,

and yoshi can wavedash: no joke, look it up

hes about middle of the middle of the game.

but he has lots of tricks and will be good, (not great but good) for time to come

but i love the feeling of being the only sonic at tourneys it makes everyone stand up and take notice

 

[IceDX]

For the record i just won a tourney with sonic,

and yoshi can wavedash: no joke, look it up

hes about middle of the middle of the game.

but he has lots of tricks and will be good, (not great but good) for time to come

but i love the feeling of being the only sonic at tourneys it makes everyone stand up and take notice

Yeah i know what u mean about being the only Sonic at tourneys, it just feels great when the guy ur playing agaist is like: Sonic?? and then some guy near there says : that Sonic Is Good

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

He's not easily edgehogged though.

You can just time a shieldgrab when he comes up and grab release gimp him, since he doesn't get his recovery back in any way. I know its pretty lame but just saying.

 

[IceDX]

You can just time a shieldgrab when he comes up and grab release gimp him, since he doesn't get his recovery back in any way. I know its pretty lame but just saying.

Most of the time Sonic Has No Need to Sweetspot the edge wile returning to the stage...unless u were trying to adgehog it yourself......

 

[Umby]

You can just time a shieldgrab when he comes up and grab release gimp him, since he doesn't get his recovery back in any way. I know its pretty lame but just saying.

A Sonic rarely needs to put himself in that position. If he does, he's WAY below and out from the ledge. Even then, if we're talking about Final Destination, Sonic can Spring into the arc under the ledge and wall jump to get back.


aka, _X_ still hasn't grabbed me out of my Up B.

 

[IceDX]

By the Way can someone tell me What is the Spring Jab Lock???

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Hmm yeah, I kinda forgot about his recovery trix.. I do it occasionally in tournaments though, lol.

 

[Tenki]

@Deff: Of course, you can easily grab gimp Sonic.

...unless he airdodges >_>

By the Way can someone tell me What is the Spring Jab Lock???

for all intents and purposes, "forward" would be the direction you're facing, and "back/backward" refers to the direction you're coming from.

At the correct % (this is for you to experiment with and learn placements for):
- You jump, use spring, placing it to land on your opponent's back (the side facing where you're starting). Then you use an auto-cancel D-air.
- The spring hits them and knocks them down. At the same time, you're aiming the D-air to land riiight behind their landing spot.
- If they don't tech the fall, begin jab lock.

On a similar note, you can pull off a jab lock setup with D-tilt.

...have fun with that.

 

[lil cj]

@Deff: Of course, you can easily grab gimp Sonic.

...unless he airdodges >_>



for all intents and purposes, "forward" would be the direction you're facing, and "back/backward" refers to the direction you're coming from.

At the correct % (this is for you to experiment with and learn placements for):
- You jump, use spring, placing it to land on your opponent's back (the side facing where you're starting). Then you use an auto-cancel D-air.
- The spring hits them and knocks them down. At the same time, you're aiming the D-air to land riiight behind their landing spot.
- If they don't tech the fall, begin jab lock.

On a similar note, you can pull off a jab lock setup with D-tilt.

...have fun with that.

That seems very hard to do, does this technique help Sonic be more deadly?
Ive never heard of this "spring jab lock"
Thanks for discussing this everybody
Is it essential to master the homing attack b/c I have trouble hitting my opponents with it, but Ive seen a Sonic that was spamming it with ease and he was a noob jus like me...And isnt homing attack used to edge guard/gimp??

 

[Camalange]

That seems very hard to do, does this technique help Sonic be more deadly?
Ive never heard of this "spring jab lock"
Thanks for discussing this everybody
Is it essential to master the homing attack b/c I have trouble hitting my opponents with it, but Ive seen a Sonic that was spamming it with ease and he was a noob jus like me...And isnt homing attack used to edge guard/gimp??

Well I wouldn't spam the homing attack, you have to know how to use it. The homing attack also works very strangely because it aims for the back of the opponent when they're on the ground, and when they're in the air, it aims for the front. SonicOrochi made a very helpful video so check it out here
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c
I already knew most of these tricks but I learned some new things (spring into stage-wall jump!) So I would definitely watch it. It'll improve your Sonic game quite a bit.

Also this spring jab lock that everyone is talking about sounds awesome so I guess I'll have to try it out, haha.

 

[lil cj]

Well I wouldn't spam the homing attack, you have to know how to use it. The homing attack also works very strangely because it aims for the back of the opponent when they're on the ground, and when they're in the air, it aims for the front. SonicOrochi made a very helpful video so check it out here
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c
I already knew most of these tricks but I learned some new things (spring into stage-wall jump!) So I would definitely watch it. It'll improve your Sonic game quite a bit.

Also this spring jab lock that everyone is talking about sounds awesome so I guess I'll have to try it out, haha.

Thanks alot...that video really helped
Is there a guide that fully explains the spring jab lock??

 

[Tenki]

for all intents and purposes, "forward" would be the direction you're facing, and "back/backward" refers to the direction you're coming from.

At the correct % (this is for you to experiment with and learn placements for):
- You jump, use spring, placing it to land on your opponent's back (the side facing where you're starting). Then you use an auto-cancel D-air.
- The spring hits them and knocks them down. At the same time, you're aiming the D-air to land riiight behind their landing spot.
- If they don't tech the fall, begin jab lock.

There you go.

No, there aren't any official threads on it. It's just another situational technique. Like I said earlier, you can just do a D-tilt (or F-tilt) > jab lock.

I was going to make a thread all about springs+spring strategies, like I did with side-B and down-B, but there's just too much that I can't simply map it all out :[