Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[chenjesu]

razor leaf should have the multi-hit shield-breaking properties of a g&w bair.
That would be way more useful.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I've always hated how so many characters have really crappy dash grabs. A few of the dash grabs should have a better risk/reward ratio and the rest should just be the same as their standing grab (everybody simply JCs the bad ones, which doesn't exactly require much skill).

Problem is, Ivy's dash grab still isn't that good.

maybe usmash (I feel like it's not that strong but maybe that's just me)

Just felt like giving some KO numbers. (Mario, FD, no DI):

U-smash sweetspot - 71-73% (stronger than Fox's U-smash)
U-smash sourspot (Mario on ground) - 131%
U-smash sourspot (peak of Mario's jump) - 120%.

U-air sweetspot (on ground) - 136%
U-air sweetspot (peak of jump) - 122%
U-air sourspot (on ground) - 165%
U-air sourspot (peak of jump) - 142%

Seed Bomb (peak of jump) - 153%

 

[bubbaking]

Samus' dash grab is also kinda better (read: safer) than her standing grab, so it's not exactly new. If you want something a LOT better, you should head on over to her pivot grab. Btw, it's not "pretty cool" to have a shieldgrab that's worse than your other grabs. There was always a tradeoff for using dash grabs in Melee and Brawl, greater range for slower frames. It just so happened that, unless you were Melee Sheik (or some other char with a good boost grab) or DDD (or some other char that used dash grabs in a CG), the tradeoff wasn't good enough. There's no such balancing factor for pivot grabs, though. They're, like, always strictly better.

@ss18: IMO, Ivy crumbles under 'hyper-offense'. Bad OoS options, mediocre walling ability (against those chars), high comboability, and somewhat low weight contribute to that. Luckily, out of all those chars you named, I'd say only Lucario and maybe Lucas are 'hyper-offensive' and would give Ivy serious trouble, although I also have my serious, serious qualms about Diddy. Obviously, if the spacees screw up badly, then Ivy can potentially punish them in the same way most of the cast can: throw them offstage and gimp them. Ivy, in particular, is extremely good at gimping and the spacees' linear recoveries are pretty free to her bair. Her fair and dtilt are nice additions, but I feel that bair is seriously all you need. However, I find that she's somewhat weak at killing, so if you can't gimp, you might be trying for a looong time.

@SFtP: I disagree that ANY char's dash grab should be made "the same as his standing grab". One should be be able to make a choice between performing a JC grab or a dash grab out of a run with different rewards/risks instilled into each option. If they both do the same exact thing, then there's no tradeoff or need to decide whatsoever. I do agree that dash grabs should generally have better rewards, but they should never be the same as standing grabs.

Btw, other than for the sweetspotted usmash, those killing %'s you listed were actually pretty weak. I don't know if that was the point you were making, though. If Seed Bomb REALLY takes until 153% to kill someone, then that means I was right on the money about that move. If sweetspotted uair takes until 136% to kill someone, then it's honestly not a good kill move. Factor in DI and bigger stages and Ivy may not kill with ANYTHING other than Solarbeam, Vine Whip, and sweetspotted usmash until, what, 160%? That lines up pretty well with what I've been seeing in my own matches.

Samus still has 4 frames of landing lag on the thing you're describing, as do most "empty" landings.

That's what I said, lolz:

only regular landing lag (only 2 or 4 frames, whichever one is the lag of landing on the ground after doing nothing).

I still think you're underestimating it because of how high it goes. It can be used to land on plats 'laglessly', if need be. Also, you can vary the height. You can sweetspot the ledge from a height at which you'd have to worry about going over the ledge and being punished with Screw Attack. It can also be done on any stage; it just goes highest on FD and FoD. Oh well, it doesn't matter much, since the topic at hand is Ivy.

I understand the rest of your points.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Deleted member]

@SFtP: I disagree that ANY char's dash grab should be made "the same as his standing grab". One should be be able to make a choice between performing a JC grab or a dash grab out of a run with different rewards/risks instilled into each option. If they both do the same exact thing, then there's no tradeoff or need to decide whatsoever. I do agree that dash grabs should generally have better rewards, but they should never be the same as standing grabs.

Well, for certain characters that have worse dash grabs than standing grabs but are already really good and don't need any more options, adding a dash grab with even higher rewards probably isn't a good idea. In that case, we might as well make their dash grab the same as their standing grab since all anybody ever uses otherwise is their JC grab, which is easy enough to perform that eliminating the extra little input won't exactly take away any skill. It'll just eliminate that once in a blue moon moment where somebody manages to screw up the JC grab.

Basically, I think JC grabs are kinda pointless. It's like making Mario's nB his Melee Fireball and then adding in his PM Fireball as an A+B move. Like...what would be the point of that? All anybody would ever use is the PM Fireball, so why not just make that the nB move?

But for many other characters, yes, I agree about the higher risk for higher reward dash grabs.

Btw, other than for the sweetspotted usmash, those killing %'s you listed were actually pretty weak. I don't know if that was the point you were making, though.

Nah, I knew those attacks didn't kill well. I just felt like testing it out.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, for certain characters that have worse dash grabs than standing grabs but are already really good and don't need any more options, adding a dash grab with even higher rewards probably isn't a good idea. In that case, we might as well make their dash grab the same as their standing grab since all anybody ever uses otherwise is their JC grab, which is easy enough to perform that eliminating the extra little input won't exactly take away any skill. It'll just eliminate that once in a blue moon moment where somebody manages to screw up the JC grab.

Ahhh, I see. So you're part of THAT crew, with which I've just recently begun to agree, huh? The same 'crew' that thinks being forced to L-cancel every aerial (since you would NEVER do otherwise for any good reason) is a needless mechanic. I understand.

Basically, I think JC grabs are kinda pointless. It's like making Mario's nB his Melee Fireball and then adding in his PM Fireball as an A+B move. Like...what would be the point of that? All anybody would ever use is the PM Fireball, so why not just make that the nB move?

I agree with your conclusion/suggestion, but your example is horrible. Melee fireballs and P:M fireballs are quite different and I've personally heard some people (Mario mains/secondaries) say that they prefer Melee Mario's fireballs to P:M's because the trajectory of Melee Mario's fireballs is more suited towards approaching, or something like that. I believe P:M fireballs follow a Doc pill trajectory, which is around 45 degrees, while Melee fireballs go farther out at an angle closer to 30 degrees. It doesn't matter though; P:M is a different game from Melee so I'm fine with certain characteristics being different, especially since overall, P:M Mario is much better than Melee Mario. My qualms with the PMBR's design choices are that they're unafraid to change characteristics in SOME Melee vets, like Mario, Sheik, etc., but they are afraid to put in changes to Fox and Falco, just for the sake of being 'true to (NTSC) Melee'. This viewpoint is neither fair (it's the spacees for heaven's sake) nor consistent. Meanwhile, they claim that they want to bring everyone to Top Tier level (another viewpoint I disagree with, but that's actually arbitrary), and yet, when they succeed, IT'S TIME TO NERFTWEAK! Talk about a lack of consistency.....

 

[Deleted member]

Really? I never heard any complaints about Mario's fiery balls. Eh, but you knew the point I was trying to make lol. Take one move and then add another very similar move that's superior for almost all intents and purposes.
I won't get into L-cancelling since it's pretty much been settled, but I actually think it is more difficult to master than JC grabs.

So anyway, how about this Pogeyman called Ivysaur?

 

[bubbaking]

It was mostly in person. There are quite a few things you won't ever see online because someone either...

1. doesn't want to be that minority voice that everyone might disagree with.
2. doesn't go on SWF ever. He might not even have an account.

...among various other reasons. The university I used to go to on Long Island (Stony Brook) had quite the char diversity. We had dedicated Yoshi, Mario, Samus, Doc, Ganon, Roy, and even Pichu mains, among the regular top/high tier stuff. We actually had more competitive Roys at one point than most other characters (lolz, we had at least four). We were like a mini-AZ region... Anwyay, our resident Mario main was the first one to tell me that he preferred Melee Mario's fireballs for the reasons I stated earlier. I heard similar, albeit milder, opinions from others afterwards. I personally like P:M Mario's fireballs more, but you'll always have people who are displeased, I guess.

I think L-cancelling is generally easier for most people simply because it is what people learn first (maybe after learning how to SHFF). It is practiced to the point that it becomes second-nature and is done without even thinking about it. That's actually the problem. The tech is so universally needed with absolutely NO ill effects whatsoever that you might as well drill it into being a subconscious action and you won't be any worse for wear. Meanwhile, those who decide to learn other things first (like JC grabs ) are strictly worse off.

Anyway yeah.......Ivysaur......

 

[Ace55]

So new Ivysaur main in the house: Amsah.

As for a questions: are we imagining things or does Ivy's up-b seem to fail pretty regularly for no apparent reason?

And how the hell does the up-b reel in manage to go straight through Bowser's fire breath? Invincibility frames?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

"For no apparent reason?" The only instances I know where that happens would be when a platform is in the way (Yoshi's Story cloud, mostly) and when you're in range.

The Up-B reel-in is very quick; something like 1-3 frames. As a result, Ivysaur may not be in that spot in how far she travels per frame.

 

[GunBlaze]

So new Ivysaur main in the house: Amsah.

You're trolling, right? Brothah Amsah with Ivy?

 

[Ace55]

Nope, for some reason he really has a thing for Ivysaur.

 

[GunBlaze]

Nope, for some reason he really has a thing for Ivysaur.

Brothah Amsah...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, the area that Ivysaur's Up-B will recover from is like a vertical rectangle, as an aside. Pay no mind to the "range" that the non-tether Up-B shows.

 

[Shimesaba]

Nope, for some reason he really has a thing for Ivysaur.

Yo, get some vids for us. It would be great to see what Amsah's doing with the character.

 

[Ace55]

Currently mostly fapping about solarbeam and 'spamming' up-b.

Gonna have a tourney April 13th where both Amsah and recording should be present. Don't count on anything before then.

 

[Blaughable]

New to Ivy. Enjoying the pokemon a lot. Ivy seems to be the strongest of the three. So what are ivy's bread and butter combos from a throw at low, mid, high percentages. Could just be the stupid AI, but at low percentages does dthrow , dair, uair always combo?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur doesn't have many super-reliable strings. Most follow-ups come from reads. Landing N-Air -> grab/D-Tilt/running N-Air/F-Air.

There's a 50/50 between D-Throw and U-Throw. Good DI for one is bad DI for the other. They can lead into aerials or Up-B.

Landing F-Air usually lets you follow up with something else.

L-Canceled U-Air can often string into another U-Air or Seed Bomb, depending on how high they go. I'd recommend watching some videos to get an idea of how she's supposed to combo.

 

[bubbaking]

About recovering with upB, I was once under the impression that the tether's maximum distance was at a 45 degree angle, but I now know that the upB has way more vertical range than horizontal range. I know what Ace was talking about, and there honestly are areas where it fails and it looks really stupid, but none of it is 'random'. You can recover from almost inside the lower blastzones on some stages, but go a little out horizontally and you may find yourself SDing, even if you were at or below ledge level. It can be frustrating. Since upB is a tether AND it's Ivy's only major form of recovery (unlike ZSS, who has two tethers), perhaps this could be tweaked a little bit so that it doesn't 'randomly' fail whenever you're within a certain 'absolute range/distance' from the ledge. I mean, if ZSS is outside of that "vertical rectangle", she can just sideB and be fine.

IMO, Ivy's tether upB should probably be some kind of combination of ZSS' two tethers. Also, question for Reflex: Is it true that zair tethers are more flexible with their recovery angles than Ivy's upB? That's what it looks like...

You're trolling, right? Brothah Amsah with Ivy?

Wasn't Leffen also using him a lot recently?

Ivy seems to be the strongest of the three.

As of now, I think it might be the opposite.

 

[Ace55]

Yeah, Zard definitively the strongest of the trio right now imo. Squirtle and Ivy is a tossup.

And it looks kind of absurd that sometimes you can hit someone on the ledge with up-b but you can't tether it from that distance.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, those are the most funny instances of silly upB failures.

Edit: IMO, Squirtle is "definitively the strongest of the trio right now." However, there is no toss-up between Zard and Ivy. Zard is just flat-out better. When it comes to 'Sheik-level' ease of use, Zard wins, followed by Squirt, and then Ivy, I think.

 

[Toby.]

At the risk of further derailing this thread...care to briefly explain why you think that bubba?

edit: I think it's very tempting to get caught up in squirtle's potential movement capabilities, whilst forgetting that all his shellshifted techniques entail their own particular start up time and spacing. It's not as convenient as the immediate execution of a wavedash. Techniques such as his hydrograb seem great on paper, but when you realise that in a practical sense it's the slowest grab in the game to come out (you need to dash, pivot, jc grab), and that you need to be a specific minimum distance away for it to not whiff...it's nowhere near as widely applicable as "enormous sliding grab" sounds at first, because you can't use it in many conventional grab situations.

And he still can't shield grab many attacks. So his grab is sometimes, in specific situations, very long, but also pretty limited in many conventional positions.

I'm not sure what to think about Squirtle as a whole. I don't have him slotted into a tier list. But I'd like to hear what your angle is, bubba.

 

[bubbaking]

Zard and Ivy can both have problems getting in on carefully defensive opponents, I feel. Ivy also isn't good at dealing with Hyper Offense. However, I feel that Squirt's mobility allows him to get around all those problems. He can capitalize really easily on even small openings and he has a good bit of kill power to boot. His gimping ability is also pretty nice. Squirtle is fast enough to retreat and nimble enough to turn that retreat into a quick reversal once you open yourself up. Tail invincibility on a bunch of moves is godlike, and he has a few somewhat safe pressure strings on shields, thanks to a frame 1 jab, a WD that cancels on-hit accompanied by an uair that hits behind him (falcon-style) or a bair, and other things. He has a whole crapload of tools and people haven't even begun to explore his options. I feel many are actually afraid to.

Oh, and smash armor gives Squirt some pretty free TC situations, since the armor is enough to power through get-up attacks. All that reach and power on usmash is also just godly.

Charizard is better than he was before, but he's fundamentally the same. Mind you, I was one of those people who disagreed that Zard was garbage in 2.1 (that opinion was reserved for Wario and G&W). Once he gets in, he can dish out a world of hurt with a bunch of combo-starters like his grab, jab, tilts, and smashes (which are surprisingly fast), but getting in can be the problem. Luckily, he's heavy (and somewhat floaty) and his recovery's good, so he gets a lot of chances to attempt to approach. Unfortunately, I am incredibly saddened by the noticeably slower IASA on Zard's dthrow as well as the loss of bthrow's utility as a kill throw at high %'s. Dthrow was quite possibly one of Zard's strongest tools in 2.1 and its loss may just be one of the reasons I feel that Squirt is better than Zard right now.

Ivy is Ivy. She's a mediocre Samus (quite literally in my PoV) with more extensive combos and a somewhat different type of projectile zoning at the expense of a worse recovery and less weight. That and she has trouble killing unless she's gimping and she gets combo'd pretty hard. Her best KO moves are either somewhat situational and/or dependent on bad DI (usmash and Vine Whip), IMO, or they take time to set up (Solarbeam). She's solid, but I'd put her strictly below Zard, the powerhouse tank, and Squirtle, the TRUE glass cannon.

Here are some exemplary opponents for our three Pokemon: the spacees...

• Squirtle dashes under all but the very lowest of lasers. His SS combos, like SS > (true) pivot JC grab, work really well on FFers, and his Bubble gimps them extremely well. His bair also wrecks their recoveries.
• Zard has trouble getting in and trouble not getting wrecked (his shield is pooped on and he's big), but once he gets a hit in, Zard is very capable of landing near 0-to-death combos on them. He's also a master gimper.
• Ivy just sucks against spacees. She can't keep them out and she gets out-camped by them. Her shield is crapped on and she gets combo'd hard. If she wasn't extremely good at gimping, this MU would be hopeless.

Those are my thoughts on the issue.

 

[standardtoaster]

squirtle's jab is frame 2

 

[bubbaking]

Oh right. I keep forgetting that the PMBR slowed that down. It's frame 1 in vBrawl.

Edit: I understand I was incorrect, but frame 2 is still fast enough to get the point across, tbh. Jab 1 and jab 2 are both extremely fast, leading to some nice jab pressure.

 

[leelue]

I disagree that ANY char's dash grab should be made "the same as his standing grab". One should be be able to make a choice between performing a JC grab or a dash grab out of a run with different rewards/risks instilled into each option. If they both do the same exact thing, then there's no tradeoff or need to decide whatsoever. I do agree that dash grabs should generally have better rewards, but they should never be the same as standing grabs.
.

Hey look, we agree

 

[bubbaking]

You're actually too anti-Bubba to admit that we agree on a few points.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I find it hilarious that he agrees with something in which the first phrase is "I disagree"

Yes, I have a very ****ed up sense of humour.

 

[bubbaking]

We agreed to disagree.....with someone else.

 

[leelue]

my antibubbaness can't block my sense of reason, yo

 

[Strong Badam]

yoyoyo get amsah in here
ivysaur is the ****

 

[Swann]

How does Ivy avoid getting wrecked by characters like Sanic and CF who can just DD camp her to pieces? Sanic in general is a huge pain in the ass.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's just it--She doesn't. :/

 

[Swann]

That was the response I thought would come, but not the one I was hoping for.

Maaaaan, I feel like there's got to be a way but it's such an uphill battle.

 

[bubbaking]

That's the problem. She's a wall/zoner that can't actually effectively do her job against these DD monsters. She also lacks an extremely reliable way to get out of hyper-offensive pressure, especially true shine pressure. At least Falcon (and the spacees) can be gimped fairly easily if you can somehow throw him offstage from, say, a bthrow. Sonic is infinitely harder to deal with. One can try to force reactions or take back space with Razor Leaf, but those leaves have priority that's just as bad as Samus' paper mache missiles. Ivy's own mediocre dash speed and WD distance also muck up things because she can't counteract the opponent's mobility with her own.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur has a rather good wavedash distance, actually.

 

[bubbaking]

Idk what your standards are, but I play Samus, Luigi, Squirtle, etc. Their DDs may not be spectacular, but their WD mobility makes up for it. IMO, Ivy's WD distance is nowhere near long enough to make up for her walk-like dash speed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wavedash Ratings

-Wavedash lengths from best to worst. I can’t guarantee 100% accuracy but I can assure you it is very close. I have marked the two most major potential points of error which are described below.

1) Luigi
2) Squirtle
3) Lucas
4) Marth
5-6) Mario/ Mr. G&W
7) Diddy
8) Ivysaur
9) Ness
10) ZSS
11) Fox
12) Bowser
*13-14) Falco/ Charizard
15) Pit
16) ROB
17) DDD
18) Ganon
19-23) Toon Link/ Ike/ Sheik/ DK/ **Sonic
24) Wolf
25) Pikachu
26) Snake
27) Wario
28) C. Falcon
29) Zelda
30) Jiggs
31) Lucario
32) Link
33) Peach

Right below Mr. Game and Watch/Mario isn't what I'd think of as a mediocre wavedash. The only thing that matters is whether or not you can create enough distance with it to significantly change spacing distance, and Ivysaur certainly can. With grabs not being as powerful as they were in Melee (IMO), it hurts the overall usefulness of the really long-range wavedashes and makes them, in most cases, arguably worse than the ones next in line.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, another thing to consider is jumpsquat. Longer jumpsquat = longer time taken to WD. How much jumpsquat does Ivysaur have? Also, Ivy is right below Diddy on that list, not Mario/G&W, and that actually IS starting to fall into the 'much less appreciable distance' tier, IMO.

I strongly diagree that grabs are not as powerful as they were in Melee. There are a whole lot more kill throws now, and even ones that already existed have been strengthened. For instance, DK's bthrow didn't really kill until reeaaally late in Melee. It just set up gimps/edgeguards well at high %'s. It's been turned into an outright KO move now. Then you have a lot more chars who can just 'subsist' off of grab combos (ROB, Zard, Ike, etc.) for everything from racking damage to netting KOs. Grabs were really never this strong in Melee unless you were the spacees, Sheik, or Falcon. I understand that statement was just your opinion, though.

Edit: Then there are also a few grab range tweaks. For instance, DK, who has a kill throw and also is guilty of being capable of completely 'subsisting' off of his grabs, now has a grab range larger than Marth's. That's really scary. Wario has a dash grab that mixes up with his sideB, Squirt has hydrograb, etc. The grab game is stronger and more diverse than ever now.

 

[wza]

why does razor leaf go farther and faster sometimes?
is this random or is there a trick to this?
edit:nvm found out how