Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[Nintendude]

cmon dude don't play dumb lol. "community growth" obviously refers to people who play the game competitively which implies 1v1 with items turned off.

 

[Sangoku]

I know, it was hardly an argument. More a dumb nitpicky point I wanted to make (like the one on the macros lol). I don't care that much about all this business and I'll probably never go to a tournament, so it doesn't concern me either.

 

[Cobrevolution]

you can wean people off items/ffa. if you get them to start playing, then gradually show them more and more things unique to the competitive scene, it'll probably pique their interest. that's what happened to me, except i didn't have someone show me, i went looking myself.

i'm torn on controllers. on the one hand, i think all tournaments should be played with the original equipment, but i know that's next to impossible because of how dated everything is, so i've come to accept that people are going to use hori's and mad catz's and gamecube controllers like chain ace and SOON XBOX CONTROLLERS LIKE SMELLY CAT.

on the other hand, i think all alternate controllers should be used on an alternate console - on an emulator. but then i can easily picture tournaments becoming nothing but people with laptops - we don't need to worry about setups ever again, just making sure they run smoothly. or something like that.

i am in support of anything that brings more people into the community.

also sheer, you sound childish and internetty when you keep saying things like power drunk and dictatorship.

 

[clubbadubba]

oh god no tournaments on emulator unless all the consoles die.

Why do you think all alternate controllers should be used on an alternate console?

 

[Cobrevolution]

it's really just a personal thing. i like an equal playing field for everyone, and original equipment adds to that equality. ideally, you want tournament results to be based entirely on player skill without any extra factors or exceptions or biases (which is why i like random seeding/staging/double blind kind of things).

 

[cmu6eh]

i'm torn on controllers. on the one hand, i think all tournaments should be played with the original equipment, but i know that's next to impossible because of how dated everything is, so i've come to accept that people are going to use hori's and mad catz's and gamecube controllers like chain ace and SOON XBOX CONTROLLERS LIKE SMELLY CAT.
.

The way i made the thingy allows me to use whatever is recognized by direct-input to be used as a controller. I gave boom a demonstration when he came over, allowing one to use a xbox controller through my laptop to play on console wirelessly. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the 3-frame delay but I am busy for the next month with real work and will get to it then.

 

[clubbadubba]

it's really just a personal thing. i like an equal playing field for everyone, and original equipment adds to that equality. ideally, you want tournament results to be based entirely on player skill without any extra factors or exceptions or biases (which is why i like random seeding/staging/double blind kind of things).

So wait are you saying you would want console players to have to play keyboard players on emulator? Because that would definitely favor keyboard players and would not be "equality."

Random does not mean it will be based entirely on skill level. Random seeding results in tournament results to be inaccurate and can make top 10 players finish in 20th and stuff like that. Random staging does not mean that neither player will have a stage advantage. It means that the stage advantage will be randomly selected. Random =/= fair, random == random

 

[Battlecow]

We should prioritize community growth over ruleset standardization for the time being.

Or we could have good tournaments for the community we have instead of jerking off to fantasies about how everyone who ever owned a 64 will come to the next tourney if we just let them play on saffron

 

[TANK64]

lol love the sudden "change in adittude" from the DUDE.

@Solo, yes. Although to be completly honest Wizzy might be mine and Sheer's love child.

But I can't be 100% sure who the father is.

 

[Cobrevolution]

So wait are you saying you would want console players to have to play keyboard players on emulator? Because that would definitely favor keyboard players and would not be "equality."

no. console players would be using console and keyboard/adapter players would be using the emulator. it would essentially lead to a divided tournament/pot/community (to an extent). i am not offering this as a solution, merely as a thought on my behalf.

Random does not mean it will be based entirely on skill level. Random seeding results in tournament results to be inaccurate and can make top 10 players finish in 20th and stuff like that. Random staging does not mean that neither player will have a stage advantage. It means that the stage advantage will be randomly selected. Random =/= fair, random == random

one could argue that even seeded tournaments are inaccurate due to how many different pvp matchups there are.

if i may use myself as an example, let's look at this past apex's results list. i came in 33rd after losing to Shade and Dark Link X. is my placing totally correct? i've beaten jimmyjoe and jerry before. i almost took out dark link. i don't think it's ridiculous to assume that myself - and honestly, a lot of people who placed in 33rd could feasibly be 17th. for christ's sake, Jel - who came in 9th last year, right? - got 49th.

i don't mean fair as in all advantages will be erased, just that a player's hand in deciding the advantage would be gone. you know? like picking dreamland when you're pikachu or counterpicking to peach when your opponent is falcon. it's a part of the game, tourney wise anyway, so again, this isn't a solution, just a personal thing.

this last section is hastily written because class; will edit later

 

[Nintendude]

You guys are all such trolls. It really cracks me up.

btw cobr everyone already knows that results from seeded double elimination brackets are inaccurate past the top-8. The seeding is really meant to guarantee the integrity of the top-8 but can't do much beyond that.

 

[clubbadubba]

That's really more of an example of inaccurate seeding due to lack of knowledge about you. If we did random you could've played isai then boom, then you would've been tied for last. Or you could've played 3 or 4 scrubs to start with, and then gotten like 13th. Neither of these would be correct. Seeding is much more likely to produce more accurate results than random seeding. Its why every tournament is seeded. Ideally we would have a better system for seeding such as pools, but we don't have the time for that.

The advantage in deciding stage is alternating with player choice though. With random, pikachu might get dreamland 3/3 times. Really the best random could ever do in terms of fairness is match the fairness obtained by alternating player choice.

 

[SheerMadness]

also sheer, you sound childish and internetty when you keep saying things like power drunk and dictatorship.

Interesting. It certainly seemed to me that Nintendude was the one being childish when he decided that his opinion was the only one that mattered here.

The biggest thing here is that not all input devices are equal. You can't treat them as such. Keyboards give players a clear advantage in DI over anything else. Allowing certain players a decided advantage in one aspect of the game shouldn't be up to one person. That's ridiculous.

TANKLIN were both daddies. Don't you remember that talk we had with wizzy about how there's nothing wrong with him for having 2 dads?

 

[Olikus]

Im supporting nintendude. We should try adapters at offline tourney before banning it. Its good to think new ways to Get The community to grow. Thats very important imo.

 

[M!nt]

wizzrobe needs to get better internet and play online more! c:

 

[The Star King]

Do you think Hori's should be banned, Sheer?

 

[Villainy]

I'm all for the use of emulators at offline tournaments.

 

[Sangoku]

Just received my boxed n64 controller. Might not be new, but I've never seen such a good joystick. Way better than all my current controllers. I won the bid for 14 pounds.

 

[clubbadubba]

Better grease that baby up so it'll last awhile. Dam good deal you got on that, nice work

 

[SheerMadness]

I don't have a problem with Hori's. Their d-pad doesn't work for smash either right?

It's not just keyboards. I'd be against any pad that had a functional d-pad as well. The only directional input allowed should be from a joystick/analog/thumbstick/whatever you wanna call it.

I'll map my n64 d-pad online and see how it effects DI, just so I can be educated on the subject.

And to be clear, I'm far more frustrated with the fact that Nintendude thinks he should make decisions about significant issues like this all by himself than I am about the possibility of keyboards being used in console tourneys. I'd vote against them because they're provide an unfair advantage, but it certainly wouldn't ruin my tourney experience if they were allowed.

 

[TANK64]

also sheer, you sound childish and internetty when you keep saying things like power drunk and dictatorship.

Did you, like, read any of Nintendude's last posts?
Battlecow and Sheer were having one of the only civilized discussion these boards have seen in some time before Nintendude busted in with his STUFF.

@Sheer, I'm open to you getting him on the weekends.

 

[Nintendude]

I don't have a problem with Hori's. Their d-pad doesn't work for smash either right?

It's not just keyboards. I'd be against any pad that had a functional d-pad as well. The only directional input allowed should be from a joystick/analog/thumbstick/whatever you wanna call it.

I should rephrase your stance on the issue, for everyone's sake. You are opposed to any form of controller that features digital movement rather than analog movement. This includes but is not limited to keyboards, controllers with "functional d-pads," and the NES controller.

Your welcome, Sheer

 

[LLDL]

Player should be able to use any input you want as long as there is no auto fire ;>

 

[clubbadubba]

no they shouldn't.

so nintendude by your definition of macros does that mean its okay to have a short hop button? Or have multiple buttons for different jump heights?

 

[Nintendude]

I may have to tweak that definition but obviously a short-hop macro would be banned. Different inputs for different jump heights? We already have those. They are called "up" and "C"

 

[LLDL]

Would you guys oppose the use of a traditional fight stick on the n64

 

[Sangoku]

Better grease that baby up so it'll last awhile. Dam good deal you got on that, nice work

Yup I'm gonna grease it well before playing =).

And nintendude: you're well aware there are way more heights than "stick" and "c" right?

And sheer: switching to d-pad for DI is not convenient given the position of the d-pad. I think your DI will be more affected by that than by the gain of it.


Damn you chain-ace, you took the 22222th post!

 

[Nintendude]

The other heights are short-hops, and then all the normal jump heights but while moving forwards, but those are all compound inputs which would already be covered with the definition I came up with earlier.

 

[clubbadubba]

i'm pretty sure there are way more jump heights than that, but i'll let sangoku explain since he knows for sure

 

[cmu6eh]

Well if you guys are worried about macros we can just have it so we use only one arduino setup verified not to have them.

 

[SheerMadness]

Nevermind, even if I map the d-pad in controller config it still doesn't work in game.

But yah analog should be the only type of directional input allowed. Digital movement via keyboard buttons or d-pads provides far too big of an advantage in terms of rapid DI input.

cmu, you realize you're gonna need to make a bunch of these adapters right? Can't just have one, wouldn't work if 2 keyboard players were paired together.

Hopefully Nintendude comes to his senses and we can let the community decide on this and not just him.

 

[mixa]

can you kb ppl play comfortably without a table?

 

[asianaussie]

i've comfortably played with a keyboard on my lap

we should ban n64 controllers, their control sticks give them a decided advantage due to the ability to do a true non-decelerating forward-moving b-air

 

[Cobrevolution]

there are other ways to participate in a discussion than using words like intoxication of power. i don't think sheer's snideness helped his argument at all. not to mention nintendude has already made executive decisions with regard to apex, and there weren't any complaints - asking for a community vote on everything seems futile. but eh, whatever, i'm over the argument.

also, i am in support of pools over random seeding/nonrandom seeding. i just don't like TO's organizing a guaranteed top 8 based on the past. shrug.

 

[TANK64]

^^lulz

ok, completely positive you haven't been reading the same thread at this point lol.

 

[Battlecow]

Seriously though guys

Apex isn't the only tourney

 

[SheerMadness]

Lol cob, for a small community like ours this is a huge issue a lot of people are extremely opinionated about. In the country I live in we vote we vote on hot button issues. People's opinions matter. Nintendude has decided that our one big console tourney every year doesn't work like that and the community's opinion matters not.

That's pretty disappointing to me. If you think I'm the one being the asshole that's cool, doesn't change my opinion at all. Sorry.

 

[The Star King]

That's how Sheer always sounds, lol

Sheer, Hori's are known to have better DI than normal 64 controllers. So you would be OK with that?

I may have to tweak that definition but obviously a short-hop macro would be banned. Different inputs for different jump heights? We already have those. They are called "up" and "C"

Watch this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqlrZRA1XDs

You know how Mario can sideways-C jump perfectly on DL platforms? One could potentially use macros to set a certain stick jump height and do that with every character.

 

[Cobrevolution]

In the country I live in we vote we vote on hot button issues.

kay well in the country i live in i have the freedom of speech in that i can talk about whatever i feel like; here on this forum, i am prohibited from discussing pornography, liquor, etc. can't really compare the community we have to the government. it's a really pointless analogy.

but sk raises a good point. if you accept hori's, you pretty much should be accepting everything else. keyboards and xbox controllers included. i have not been around long enough to say whether or not the community has ever been really outspoken against other controllers - how long have people been using hori's in tournaments? and has anyone ever complained about their usage/used them as the reason they lost a match?

i understand you want things like this to be put to a vote. i did not see mike's responses as overbearing, but i don't feel you made your points in the best way possible. correct me if i'm wrong, but there was no vote for whether or not gamecube adapters, horis, or other controllers were tournament legal or not, right?

and to just go one further with the entire issue of voting in such a small community - i mean, 96 people entered apex. of those 96, how many people would have voted on anything? how many of those people even browse the forums? i believe about half are silent. so you'd be missing a good chunk of the community. so basically, you want some of the community to make a decision for the rest.

which is exactly what mike is doing.

edit: tipsy and not trying to offend.

 

[cmu6eh]

Actually in the USA you don't vote on issues, your reprensentative does. Unless it is a ballot initiative.