Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

sorry to say but i think you guys are sadly mistaken if you think kb players have an advantage over controller players

boom and isai have better DI than me lol. idk how killer and other kb players have such good DI but i can't do it. it might be different from keyboard to keyboard or even comp to comp (i think my DI was better on my old comp but i could be wrong as this was years ago..but i remember i was able to reset games on this kb lol) so i'd be interested to see this thing tested on console.

but really, everything else about kb sux. you have to constantly buffer directions which limits your options and makes it so you have to plan your moves out beforehand. it just seems like it's the same as controller play-wise because us kb players have spent years learning how to do this

not to mention the lack of multi-dimensional aiming and i swear my kb can't even do ff uairs or platform drop uairs consistently

 

[clubbadubba]

cobr for SS on the staying calm tier list. what a boss.

hori's are nintendo endorsed, so they are okay. If nintendo comes out with a keyboard that plugs into an n64, then I would be okay with that as well.

I think the plugin you use has a lot to do with your kb di. I guess we should really wait until these adapters are finished and tested out before we make any judgements about them.

 

[M!nt]

You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? I think the diversity of controllers would be kinda cool and unique.

I would agree with bane but he sucks so don't listen to anything he says.

 

[Sangoku]

lol I posted in the wrong thread.


3.2.1 Stick jump

-You have 3 frames to go from >20 (tilting position) to 53 (jumping).
-Depending on the value input to jump, the height will be different. 53 being the minimum and 80 being the maximum.

Taken from my thread nobody reads. The video Star King provided doesn't work for me, so I don't know if it's the same, but I remember Semp made a good video describing different ranges heights.

I really don't see how the plugin could influence your DI, except if, as I said, you have insufficient range and you don't get the full distance out of each input. I wouldn't see how keyboard could matter either, except if a keyboard has auto-fire buttons lol. There are basically two variables: the distance per input and the number of input within hitlag. Which of these two are changing from keyboard to keyboard according to those who say it changes? Or is there a third variable I'm missing?

 

[clubbadubba]

You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? I think the diversity of controllers would be kinda cool and unique.

I don't realize anything

cool and unique is below fairness in terms of what is expected from a tournament

 

[The Star King]

Ugh. I hate when I wanna reply to multiple things but can't reply to some because I need to test some things. But wanna reply ASAP to other things before discussion goes further.

Meaning: Sangoku, I'll reply later. Maybe other people too. I forgot already.

hori's are nintendo endorsed, so they are okay. If nintendo comes out with a keyboard that plugs into an n64, then I would be okay with that as well.

OK. And why should that be the criteria?

 

[clubbadubba]

Because nintendo designed all aspects of smash, and anything that is not designed by nintendo is, in my opinion, a "hack", for lack of a better word. Now, I'm not against "hacks" in general (battlefield via gameshark, etc.), but I'm against one person using a "hack" while another player does not.

 

[cmu6eh]

I really don't see how the plugin could influence your DI, except if, as I said, you have insufficient range and you don't get the full distance out of each input. I wouldn't see how keyboard could matter either, except if a keyboard has auto-fire buttons lol. There are basically two variables: the distance per input and the number of input within hitlag. Which of these two are changing from keyboard to keyboard according to those who say it changes? Or is there a third variable I'm missing?

Well depends on how you define "Full Distance". In a single direction, a N64 controller can send up to 60% of what a N64 console can register. So, the console can take values from 0 to 1, but the controller can only send values from 0 to 0.6
I made a plugin that sets the deadzone, the max range, and a optional multiplier to increase your range. This lets you make a real N64 controller go to 100% range, or it can make an xbox controller or keyboard have 60% range.

Clubba, if you are so concerned about fairness, you should advocate for tournament provided controllers, since some people have controllers in better condition and that isn't fair to poor people who cant afford nice ones.

 

[cmu6eh]

Because nintendo designed all aspects of smash, and anything that is not designed by nintendo is, in my opinion, a "hack", for lack of a better word. Now, I'm not against "hacks" in general (battlefield via gameshark, etc.), but I'm against one person using a "hack" while another player does not.

Nope. HAL designed smash. Nintendo just licensed and published it.

 

[cmu6eh]

hori's are nintendo endorsed, so they are okay. If nintendo comes out with a keyboard that plugs into an n64, then I would be okay with that as well.
.

Once you get nintendo to endorse your views on the tournament ruleset I'll be okay with banning keyboards. I'd like to see it in writing.

 

[Sangoku]

Well depends on how you define "Full Distance". In a single direction, a N64 controller can send up to 60% of what a N64 console can register. So, the console can take values from 0 to 1, but the controller can only send values from 0 to 0.6
I made a plugin that sets the deadzone, the max range, and a optional multiplier to increase your range. This lets you make a real N64 controller go to 100% range, or it can make an xbox controller or keyboard have 60% range.

It's not about what I define, it's about what is registered. And if you read a little bit the info about this game, you would know the maximum distance for everything (air acceleration, distance per DI input, maximum stick jump, etc) is reached by a range value of 80. 80 over what? 80 over 128, which makes 62.5%. So 60% is the actual max... (I think it's safe to assume the 2.5% do not affect to a visible extent).

Also, I heard editting post is a cool feature...

By the way, I don't get how this was relevant as an answer to what I said?

 

[clubbadubba]

Clubba, if you are so concerned about fairness, you should advocate for tournament provided controllers, since some people have controllers in better condition and that isn't fair to poor people who cant afford nice ones.

Tournament provides controllers already, so I don't need to.

Nope. HAL designed smash. Nintendo just licensed and published it.

I almost didn't say designed because i knew nintendo probably didn't actually design it, but then I thought its close enough for people to know what I mean. Guess not.

Once you get nintendo to endorse your views on the tournament ruleset I'll be okay with banning keyboards. I'd like to see it in writing.

Don't care if Nintendo endorses my views. Only if they endorse the equipment.

 

[M!nt]

lol both of you seem pretty mad, cheer up c:

 

[Nintendude]

What if I want to use my really ****ty high frequency brand controller at a tournament

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

what about my ddr pad? the di on that would be CrAZYYY

 

[SheerMadness]

Hori's are fine. They use an analog joystick for their directional input. You simply can't spam directional inputs with a joystick the same way you can with a keyboard button. That's the issue here. The keyboard's ability to spam rapid directional input at a much higher rate than any other input device.

Other than having a clear advantage in DI, keyboard players do impress me. The learning curve is clearly steeper than a controller. Props to you guys. But that doesn't mean it's fair that you have a huge advantage in DI in console tourney settings.

 

[Cobrevolution]

does frame delay have anything to do with keyboard DI? or online DI in general? because when I play on kaillera i notice my DI can get fairly ridiculous, and I thought it was because in that delay time or lag time it's registering more inputs at a slower rate on my end but then transferring them at a normal rate. or something. i dunno anything about the technical aspects of this game, btw, so correct the wrongs in my statement.

but how much better can you DI on a keyboard over a hori? or a gamecube controller? isn't there a limit to how many directions can be pressed in the time from the hitbox connecting to the knockback setting in?

 

[Nintendude]

what about my ddr pad? the di on that would be CrAZYYY

Weaksauce. The Donkey Kong Jungle Beat bongos are where it's at.

 

[SheerMadness]

I'm not great with the technical aspects of games either but it's always been fairly clear to me why keyboards offer much better DI. You can spam a keyboard button at a much greater pace than you can spam a joystick a certain direction.

Sangoku has confirmed multiple times in this thread that 2 things matter when it comes to DI. Having full range and how many times you can input a direction while in hit lag.

It's a no contest. No analog joystick player will ever get close to being able to spam the amount of inputs that keyboard player can. That's really the only reason keyboards are unfair in a console tourney setting IMO.

 

[cmu6eh]

I'm not great with the technical aspects of games either but it's always been fairly clear to me why keyboards offer much better DI. You can spam a keyboard button at a much greater pace than you can spam a joystick a certain direction.

Sangoku has confirmed multiple times in this thread that 2 things matter when it comes to DI. Having full range and how many times you can input a direction while in hit lag.

It's a no contest. No analog joystick player will ever get close to being able to spam the amount of inputs that keyboard player can. That's really the only reason keyboards are unfair in a console tourney setting IMO.

Its not unfair. No one is preventing you from using a keyboard

 

[The Star King]

Hori's are fine. They use an analog joystick for their directional input. You simply can't spam directional inputs with a joystick the same way you can with a keyboard button. That's the issue here. The keyboard's ability to spam rapid directional input at a much higher rate than any other input device.

I just said that Hori's have better DI.

According to what you said, the reason you want to ban directional pads is they can attain better DI. Therefore, one can infer you believe that better DI makes something worthy of banning. Therefore, you should want to ban Hori's if they have higher DI.

I would just adopt clubba's reasoning. It would make your stance stronger. That, or change it to wanting to ban Hori's too. Because right now your reasoning is inconsistent with what you're trying to achieve.

 

[Cobrevolution]

more capability for DI does not mean that each keyboard player is going to achieve better DI than hori/analog users, rightt?

if we take bane's statement into account - about player dependency/keyboard differing, that is -

boom and isai have better DI than me lol. idk how killer and other kb players have such good DI but i can't do it. it might be different from keyboard to keyboard or even comp to comp (i think my DI was better on my old comp but i could be wrong as this was years ago..but i remember i was able to reset games on this kb lol) so i'd be interested to see this thing tested on console.

but really, everything else about kb sux. you have to constantly buffer directions which limits your options and makes it so you have to plan your moves out beforehand. it just seems like it's the same as controller play-wise because us kb players have spent years learning how to do this

not to mention the lack of multi-dimensional aiming and i swear my kb can't even do ff uairs or platform drop uairs consistently

then, well, it seems that your stance of their superior DI being the only reason keyboards are banned is based off the one thing they can execute better. if ease of basic movement and comboing is diminished greatly and mistakes are more likely to arise, then you're just picking and choosing.

appears to be a somewhat even trade off - it's harder to combo a keyboard player but it's just as difficult for them to perform good combos. note that i am not saying this is true of all keyboard users, but just that, based off bane's statement, they have more room for error.

also, sheer, if you really want a harder bracket for yourself in tourney, you should advocate keyboards be allowed so you have a harder time against them

 

[cmu6eh]

Tournament provides controllers already, so I don't need to.
.

*Mandated that all players must use tournament provided controllers.

 

[SheerMadness]

What? Just because you think Hori's have better DI doesn't make you right lol. There's 0 evidence to back that up aside from your opinion. That would be an awfully weak stance for me to adopt.

My stance is clearly being against any input device that allows for a far more rapid pace of input than a traditional analog stick. Is anyone gonna argue that a keyboard button or a d-pad can't achieve a far more rapid amount of inputs in a small time frame than a analog joystick?

cmu you're reaching pretty hard dude. Keyboard players have always known they can't take their keyboards to console tourneys. They accept the fact that they're stuck with online play. I started out with keyboard. I thought it was pretty pointless to learn competitive smash on an input device I won't be able to use on console, so I quickly switched to controller.

 

[Sangoku]

does frame delay have anything to do with keyboard DI? or online DI in general? because when I play on kaillera i notice my DI can get fairly ridiculous, and I thought it was because in that delay time or lag time it's registering more inputs at a slower rate on my end but then transferring them at a normal rate. or something. i dunno anything about the technical aspects of this game, btw, so correct the wrongs in my statement.

but how much better can you DI on a keyboard over a hori? or a gamecube controller? isn't there a limit to how many directions can be pressed in the time from the hitbox connecting to the knockback setting in?

I don't think frame delay is related in any way. Your inputs are just registered later. It could on the contrary pejorate your DI as even if you are starting to DI at the beginning of the DI window, the registration of your inputs only take place later in the DI window. Therefore: smaller DI window -> smaller DI. Of course there's a limit, but we're far from reaching it. Check out ant-d's DI videos if you want to see it (or if you want I could make a vid one of these days, but really everything already exists). Check section 4.5 of the thread nobody reads for a full understanding of DI window. Concerning the number of input in this window, you can "smash" DI by inputting directions of less than 90° with neutral frames between them or "slide" DI by inputting directions of 90° or more every frame. Thus in theory slide DI is twice better as smash DI (twice the input number). I might rewrite this with better wording/more detailed/more examples and add it to the other thread. That would be one more thing I could copy/paste for simpler answers.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Hori don't have better DI in nearly the same way keyboards do Star King.
Sheer does not need to change his argument. Hori sticks have less resistance and therefore take slightly less pressure to do slide DI, but it's def not a game changer. The stick is more reliable but arguably worse for smash due to the resistance making precise movement more difficult.
I've heard you use a Hori in console, so maybe you're playing the devils advocate with sheer, but people who have never used a hori shouldnt think the stick gives us some crazy DI by default. Its a misconception. My DI is fine on a regular pad. The best console DI i've seen hasnt been Hori users either..

 

[cmu6eh]

cmu you're reaching pretty hard dude. Keyboard players have always known they can't take their keyboards to console tourneys. They accept the fact that they're stuck with online play. I started out with keyboard. I thought it was pretty pointless to learn competitive smash on an input device I won't be able to use on console, so I quickly switched to controller.

Lets make a deal. You say you are arguing for fairness. I think you are just being selfish. Here is how to prove it:

1) We must both show up to apex.

2) If you get your way, and keyboards are banned from the tournament, then you must not enter the tournament or play any friendlies at the venue until the tournament is over, to prove you care more about tournament fairness than you care about your own standings in the bracket.

3) To show that I am being sincere, If I get my way, and keyboards are allowed at apex, then I will gladly not enter the tournament or play friendlies until the tournament is over. Because I'd rather watch a larger, more competitive tournament than see you have an easier time getting some of the money I donate to the pot.

Will you agree to these terms?

 

[jimmyjoe]

one could argue that even seeded tournaments are inaccurate due to how many different pvp matchups there are.

if i may use myself as an example, let's look at this past apex's results list. i came in 33rd after losing to Shade and Dark Link X. is my placing totally correct? i've beaten jimmyjoe and jerry before. i almost took out dark link. i don't think it's ridiculous to assume that myself - and honestly, a lot of people who placed in 33rd could feasibly be 17th. for christ's sake, Jel - who came in 9th last year, right? - got 49th.

Seeding is never perfect, and even with better seeding one may have a tougher matchup. I played stranded in the second round of RBR, you played 'Dan?'.. And TOs just have to do the best they can in the amount of time allotted. Sure pools would be better, but you really think random would be better than seeded? Sure there are people 33rd who could be 17th and vice versa but random would make the results much much worse..
Also, who you've beaten in a friendly doesn't hold much weight, but if you want I can come to Rutgers today and show you how we do this, young blood

 

[clubbadubba]

Just curious, is the max input range of the hori equivalent to an n64 controller?

People setting their kb range to 100% plays a huge roll in how much DI they can achieve. I would bet that bane does not set his range this high. I wonder which causes beast kb DI most: lots of inputs possible, or higher range.

Now, assuming kb's are going to be legal (because it seems that they will be), I think its only fair if they cap their max range to be that of an n64 controller on console.

cmu, that post to sheer is silly and proves nothing lol. Oh, and tourney provided controllers have been very good, so its pretty fair that people either use those good controllers, or bring their own if desired. No one is gaining an advantage either way.

 

[cmu6eh]

Just curious, is the max input range of the hori equivalent to an n64 controller?

People setting their kb range to 100% plays a huge roll in how much DI they can achieve. I would bet that bane does not set his range this high. I wonder which causes beast kb DI most: lots of inputs possible, or higher range.

Now, assuming kb's are going to be legal (because it seems that they will be), I think its only fair if they cap their max range to be that of an n64 controller on console.

Hori is the same as a regular n64. Though I have found only one that has a higher than 60-something % range in one direction.

Also,

I made a plugin that sets the deadzone, the max range, and a optional multiplier to increase your range. This lets you make a real N64 controller go to 100% range, or it can make an xbox controller or keyboard have 60% range.

 

[Nintendude]

Who needs keyboard DI when on controller you can use **** DI?

 

[clubbadubba]

If all things get capped at the 60% range I'd be reasonably happy with kb's being allowed.

Hey cmu, don't we both have jobs or something?

 

[Sangoku]

Clubba you don't understand. Or you didn't read my posts. 60% is the maximum range for super smash. Anything beyond that is useless.

It might be keyboard or controller, doesn't matter.

 

[cmu6eh]

Clubba you don't understand. Or you didn't read my posts. 60% is the maximum range for super smash. Anything beyond that is useless.

It might be keyboard or controller, doesn't matter.

Does the rom have a floor function it calls on the values before interpreting them? What is the address in memory where this happens? It would be cool to override it and see how the game behaves with full range inputs

 

[Sangoku]

Oh I didn't look at memory address for that, simple tests frame by frame are sufficient. Don't know if it was your way to disregard my sayings because of my empirical methods or if I'm being over defensive, but I'm rather sure of what I'm claiming nonetheless.

edit: nah I'm not in fact >__>. I'll check again later (with my noob empirical way). Talking about DI here, because air acceleration and stick jump height, I'm more than positive the max is 60%. So I don't see why DI should be different.

 

[The Star King]

WOW wtf happened to my post. I, like, responded to Sheer and stuff.

**** it. I'm taking my nap. Will re-reply to Sheer and reply to the new stuff post too much so I don't have too many posts to respond to please ;P (except you Sangoku I love you for testing that)

EDIT: nvm I had it on my clipboard lol:

OK Sheer, you should have said you didn't believe my assertion about Hori's having better DI in the first place. Have you noticed how nobody ever understands what you're saying in arguments? Remember z-canceling? Be more clear dude

Anyway, I am basing my belief of Horis having better DI off of everybody saying so. Yes, that's not hard evidence, but keyboard having better DI does not have hard evidence either. If you ask me Isai's DI is as good as any keyboard players. Speaking of which: yes I am gonna argue keyboard number of inputs isn't higher. Controller Slide DI (or **** DI whatever you wanna call it) > keyboard mashing in number of inputs

OK nap time

 

[NovaSmash]

sorry to say but i think you guys are sadly mistaken if you think kb players have an advantage over controller players

boom and isai have better DI than me lol. idk how killer and other kb players have such good DI but i can't do it. it might be different from keyboard to keyboard or even comp to comp (i think my DI was better on my old comp but i could be wrong as this was years ago..but i remember i was able to reset games on this kb lol) so i'd be interested to see this thing tested on console.

but really, everything else about kb sux. you have to constantly buffer directions which limits your options and makes it so you have to plan your moves out beforehand. it just seems like it's the same as controller play-wise because us kb players have spent years learning how to do this

not to mention the lack of multi-dimensional aiming and i swear my kb can't even do ff uairs or platform drop uairs consistently

You're sadly mistaken if you've never played anyone like legendary, yab, or kuzinator. They had kb di that made it nearly impossible to do a simple falcon uair combo. I swear some kb players even get out of hitstun faster than normal.

 

[SheerMadness]

If you guys really wanna test keyboard legality why not do it at Zenith first? cmu can bring the adapter and clubba can bring The Star King lol. I'd put money on keyboard SK over anyone in Atlantic North (boom is canadian not Atlantic North). Yah I just called all of Atlantic North out.

peaking of which: yes I am gonna argue keyboard number of inputs isn't higher.

I think you're delusional haha. Go spam right on your Hori joystick as fast as you possibly can then go do it on your keyboard. That's not even taking into account that on keyboard you can spam 2 directions at the exact same time for double the input.

You're sadly mistaken if you've never played anyone like legendary, yab, or kuzinator. They had kb di that made it nearly impossible to do a simple falcon uair combo. I swear some kb players even get out of hitstun faster than normal.

Gav makes a good point here. There are keyboard players out there that can literally escape up air combos, which is ********. To be fair, some of they may be using macros (probably Yab and maybe legendary), but we don't know for sure. Kuz doesn't seem like the type to use macros.

 

[Sangoku]

Okay, just tested (because I am too nice), even though I was sure of what I was saying and I was right, 60% is the max DI distance as well.

Now there's one thing I purposedly omitted that could play in favour of those supporting 60% isn't the max. The fact that the joystick moves in a circular motion makes it so that even if "left" goes 80 to the -x direction, up left can't reach that max value of 80 (remember when I say 80, it's 80/128). Therefore if you slide DI with up-left and down-left, you won't get the max distance out of every input. Instead you'll "only" get ~57 in the -x direction. Which is still better than a perfect smash DI with full range in the same direction (57*2=114>80). So it's not that relevant (hence me not mentioning it). But yeah, setting your max range to 113 in order to get always 80 in the -x direction would max out the slide DI.

Maybe I answered my own question: how would plugin influence? Maybe some plugins give a square motion instead of circular, making the full DI distance possible, even at a range of 60%. But I still don't believe the difference is that huge (and it's not true for smash DI).

Now the most interesting part is: with a controller, you can increase your range to the max, so that you can perform smaller quarter circles (without going all the way down with the joystick) with still retaining the range needed and that would give incredible DI. I remember a few years ago craiigg did that and his DI would be ant-desque, ie impossible to uair combo with falcon.

Okay, I tested to see the difference between 56 and 80 (ie 60% vs 88%). This is a perfect slide DI from a Kirby utilt at 0% on Fox:

Not that big of a deal to me (especially given the fact nobody gets perfect DI, so the difference should be more difficult to notice).

 

[cmu6eh]

Lol I just remembers this is just a game.

How does one test legality? "Oh, SK did really well so I guess we should ban keyboards so we don't have to play against him anymore"