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Battlecow

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Sheer is, of course correct; last apex's ruleset is subject to change and as no KB adapter existed at that point it's a whole nother discussion now

of course the community doesn't have to vote because it's not their tourney it's alex strife's and he can do what the **** he wants

but the synechdochic apex->tournament thing which is so common these days (and which is SUPER LAME, by the way, apex is ONE great tournament but is not and should not be seen as the scene in its entirety) means that sheer probably in some sense meant to say that tournaments in general or the hypothetical standard ruleset which only kind of exists should be determined by some sort of community vote

of course it's hard to say who composes the "community," so votes like that are really hard to conduct accurately

which is why we have backrooms

but the 64 backroom was a truly ******** idea, the demonic ******* child of melee-parasitism, and the ruleset was basically just written up by asianaussie; it's not bad but it hardly represents a community consensus except inasmuch as AA had a good instinctive sense of what the community consensus was (he did). its power derives from the fact that it's written down and tourney hosts (generally not 64 players and generally not even very interested in 64 rules) need something written down to highlight, copy and paste (possibly making 2-3 changes along the way)

And sheer, it's possible (not certain, but possible) that radically different controller options are undesirable competitively, but it's a small enough level of unfairness that I think it's worth suffering in order to allow maybe 40% of our online community to integrate into the "competitive" (competitive in the strictest sense; online competition exists but it's scarce and ****ty) community.

Degree is the key issue here; obviously we wouldn't allow DI macros just so that one extra guy would show up, but obviously we wouldn't ban all but two of our tourney entrants for the sake of having the venue be 72 degrees instead of 71, even if 72 degrees allows for a marginally higher level of competition.
 

cmu6eh

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My new goal is to get enough keyboard players involved on this forum so that we can hold a vote and get classic N64 controllers banned from tournament.
 

clubbadubba

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steve you troll too much.

my opinion is that kb's shouldn't be allowed. I understand a decent amount of the community is on keyboards, but at the same time I thinks its extremely unfair to have to play someone who has (imo) a built in equipment advantage.

And I hope this is obvious but if kb's are allowed there should be absolutely NO macros involved.

Also, just played online for the first time in a while. uggggggggggggggggh delay
 

Battlecow

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my opinion is that kb's shouldn't be allowed. I understand a decent amount of the community is on keyboards, but at the same time I thinks its extremely unfair to have to play someone who has (imo) a built in equipment advantage.
Wrong argument!

I guess that post was too long to read tho

we should be arguing about whether the pros outweigh the cons

if cons do exist, it does not mean that kb's should be banned
 

SheerMadness

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My new goal is to get enough keyboard players involved on this forum so that we can hold a vote and get classic N64 controllers banned from tournament.
Lol, nice. Well played.

I know it probably sucks that a large part of the community looks down upon your pet project, but I'm sure you knew that would be the case going in.

Is there anyone here that would actually enjoy playing against Killer or Legendary DI in a console tourney? Ignore the fact that it's unfair for moment, just reflect on whether it's even enjoyable.
 

cmu6eh

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Lol, nice. Well played.

I know it probably sucks that a large part of the community looks down upon your pet project, but I'm sure you knew that would be the case going in.

Is there anyone here that would actually enjoy playing against Killer or Legendary DI in a console tourney? Ignore the fact that it's unfair for moment, just reflect on whether it's even enjoyable.
No less fair than having to face Isai or Boom second round. Though I think a lot of mediocre players would be happy to play people that good early on cause they won't get a chance later in the bracket.
 

Battlecow

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Killer's DI isn't unenjoyable to play against

I maintain that legendary used macros

gosh karajan you're really gunning for that bad-post award, aren't you
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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Guess I didn't finish my post, but what I meant was that I think fairness trumps participation in this case.

I'm pretty sure most people find Killer DI unenjoyable to play against lol.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
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Nov 6, 2007
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9,681
Eh, keyboards definitely shouldn't be allowed in tournament (not because it's an unfair advantage though). Unless you allow all adapters. You have to allow everything or nothing.

Maybe you should lock NRage's range at like 60 or something so the DI isn't as bad. That's why Jabo is the best keyboard input plugin btw ;P (why my DI isn't as OP as other kb players')

I think there's obviously nothing wrong with using them in friendlies or MMs or whatever though if your opponent is cool with that. clubba needs to calm his t*** btw. I can already see stuff like this happening:

Sensei: "im better than you even at full power"
Star King: "lol naw brah"
Sensei: MM me *****
Star King: wuteva n****
*I win MM*
Sensei: wow what a fake smasher not legit
Star King: are you serious bro. you knew what you were getting into. this guy.

yeah idk
 

B Link

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Eh, keyboards definitely shouldn't be allowed in tournament (not because it's an unfair advantage though). Unless you allow all adapters. You have to allow everything or nothing.

Maybe you should lock NRage's range at like 60 or something so the DI isn't as bad. That's why Jabo is the best keyboard input plugin btw ;P (why my DI isn't as OP as other kb players')

I think there's obviously nothing wrong with using them in friendlies or MMs or whatever though if your opponent is cool with that. clubba needs to calm his t*** btw. I can already see stuff like this happening:

Sensei: "im better than you even at full power"
Star King: "lol naw brah"
Sensei: MM me *****
Star King: wuteva n****
*I win MM*
Sensei: wow what a fake smasher not legit
Star King: are you serious bro. you knew what you were getting into. this guy.

yeah idk
Lol that hypothetical scenario is too good
 

SuPeRbOoM

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Keyboards should be given at least a test run to see how it would go.

I always thought the DI was dependent on the kb. Mine at 100% range is not very good.
 

Battlecow

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Clubba I think you're conflating the real problems of online play (delay, in some cases lag, slight variation in controller calibration) with the effects of keyboard play

I would say if pressed that KB players are at a disadvantage.
 

Sensei

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Eh, keyboards definitely shouldn't be allowed in tournament (not because it's an unfair advantage though). Unless you allow all adapters. You have to allow everything or nothing.

Maybe you should lock NRage's range at like 60 or something so the DI isn't as bad. That's why Jabo is the best keyboard input plugin btw ;P (why my DI isn't as OP as other kb players')

I think there's obviously nothing wrong with using them in friendlies or MMs or whatever though if your opponent is cool with that. clubba needs to calm his t*** btw. I can already see stuff like this happening:

Sensei: "im better than you even at full power"
Star King: "lol naw brah"
Sensei: MM me *****
Star King: wuteva n****
*I win MM*
Sensei: wow what a fake smasher not legit
Star King: are you serious bro. you knew what you were getting into. this guy.

yeah idk
Steve, make that KB controller ASAP.
 

Nintendude

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Aliases aren't banned because they are unfair. They are banned because it's a **** move that screws with tournament logistics.

I am not planning on changing the Apex ruleset. I got literally 0 complaints at the event. I also asked for ruleset criticism here on the boards after the event and again nobody had any problems with it whatsoever. Controller adapters will be allowed. I think that we need to be open to alternate controllers especially because n64 controllers are so old and hard to find. It's hard to selectively just ban keyboard controllers when every other controller has a D-pad. It's silly to try to prevent a problem that isn't there.

That's really the end of discussion when it comes to controller adapters at Apex. This is what your TOs collectively believe in. If you aren't happy you don't have to come next year, and you'll be the ones missing out.

Oh and btw I'm pretty sure any of EC's subregions except for New England can take out MW singlehandedly.
 

Battlecow

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*raises hand*

I have a problem with hyrule (me and everyone else, that is)

If I didn't bring that up earlier it's because I didn't see the post
 

SheerMadness

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Messages
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Disappointed with your stance, Nintendude. The community as a whole should have a say in the rule set. Not just what the TO believes in. Tourneys shouldn't be a dictatorship. No one complained because there were no keyboard adapters at the tourney. So I really don't understand your logic there.

If I had never brought up the alias thing again you probably never would have decided against it. Because you wouldn't have thought about even making a rule against it. But I wanted to leave it up to the community, not just my stance on it.

TO's totally disregarding community opinions in regards to rule set is a pretty poor way to run a tourney IMO. You need to at least listen to what the community has to say. I'm betting a poll would reveal a majority to be against keyboard adapters.
 

Nintendude

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Suck it up and deal. Besides, a poll / discussion in general only includes Apex entrants that post on Smashboards, not the community as a whole.
 

SheerMadness

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So your opinion alone deciding for everyone is better off than a poll just because it may not include every single memeber of the 64 community? Again, I fail to see your logic and honestly find it to be a pretty poor attitude as a TO.

You're a nice kid, but you're being way too close minded here.

You talk about aliases being a ***** move but then you go all dictator and decide all by yourself what's wrong and right for the community in regards to adapters. Lame.
 

Nintendude

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The Hyrule debate has been done to death and it always comes out in favor of Hyrule legal, barely. I personally am against Hyrule, but I use my "can't pick a stage you already won on/picked" rule as a compromise and people seemed pretty happy with that. I invited criticism on that particular rule many many times and nobody ever said anything about it, so I'm considering that discussion closed.

And as for controllers, it's the community that's being too close minded here. My stance is consistent with the fighting game community as a whole. That's not going to change. Sorry folks.
 

Battlecow

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That post was way too long to read after all

sigh time to lower myself to your plebeian levels again

sheer Apex is his decision

smash tourneys are not his decision

we need smash tourneys other than apex

how the eff does it come out in favor of apex, dude? Did you conduct a poll? What? No, you just decided some ****. Don't try to dress it up like there was a careful analyses of public opinion involved.
 

asianaussie

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omg sk i thought i was the only person in the world who still used jabo's on kb

re: ruleset things

- a big non-japanese tournament with hyrule banned wouldn't be the worst thing in the world (we do have a stagelist for that, guys), testing the waters is always good
- i agree with what SK said concerning everything or nothing, but (correct me if im wrong) aren't keyboards the only thing anyone would even bother adapting? moreover, would anyone disagree with a xbox > n64 adapter, and if so, why? honestly, adapters shouldn't be a problem, DI-aside i think keyboard users get the short end of the stick anyway, simply due to the fact that we don't have a control stick
- **** macros
- soda stays banned in all ruleset iterations, sorry guys
 

SheerMadness

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Nintendude seems power drunk. Surprising to see this out of him.

It's cool, we'll make an adapter poll ourselves and see what the community thinks. If it's an overwhelming majority against we can always show Alex Strife. Maybe he'll support us and maybe he won't, but it would be worth showing him. If a large portion of the community supports keyboard adapters then Nintendude's power intoxication is justified.
 

Nintendude

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Any poll you conduct should be a poll on alternate controllers in general. Keyboard, Gamecube, Xbox, Dualshock, arcade sticks, and even customized / rewired n64 controllers.

edit: just to clarify my stance, I am allowing any alternate controllers. Programmed sequences of more than one input (a macro) are banned.
 

SheerMadness

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Any poll you conduct should be a poll on alternate controllers in general. Keyboard, Gamecube, Xbox, Dualshock, arcade sticks, and even customized / rewired n64 controllers.
That's exactly the problem, and why people have issues with keyboard in the first place. Not all controller/input devices are created equally. You can't just lump them together and pretend they are equal.

You can input a direction or directions FAR more rapidly by spamming a keyboard button/buttons than you can while spamming any joystick. It's not a fair comparison. A keyboard has a clear advantage over pretty much any other input device when it comes to DI.

I'm guessing a functional d-pad would be pretty good for DI too. Far better than a joystick anyway. N64 controllers obviously can't use the d-pad in smash. Not sure about alternate pads.
 

clubbadubba

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it took me a few weeks but i got through 84 hours of dexter and so now i'm all caught up. good show.
 

Battlecow

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What happened to the kind of guy everybody LIKED?

In his place is an abrasive, angry young man

RIP Nintendude

Hello Mr. Ninten, esq.
 

TANK64

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Aaaaand the true nintendude surfaces smdh...

w
t
f

now my master plan isn't really cool anymore >____>

@Sheer, Wizzy is MY child, lets get this staight!
 

clubbadubba

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nintendude probably does more for this community than anyone else right now. C'mon guys nintendude co-runs apex, and is mobilizing the community so that a 14 year old gaming actually grows instead of shrinks. I disagree with allowing keyboards too but chill out.
 

SheerMadness

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Nintendude is such a nice guy in person it's weird calling him out.

But you gotta admit clubba his attitude came off pretty poorly here.

He essentially said that he runs the tourney, doesn't care what anyone else thinks, and is gonna do what he wants. And it's not up for discussion.

Talk about a dictatorship...
 

Battlecow

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I'm joking, of course, when I say that not everyone likes nintendude

I like nintendude

I don't like the idea that apex is the only tournament because TO's run tournaments, and the only democratic part of the whole process is attendance. If we say apex is our only thing we say nintendude decides what our thing is

EC sucks major balls
 

Sangoku

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" Programmed sequences of more than one input (a macro) are banned. "

An up of 20 registered to a key is not a multiple input registered to a key... Nor are any value that would allow perfect platform landings.

DI doesn't depend on the keyboard (at least I don't think so), as long as you have 80+ range, you get the full distance out of each input. It just allows faster inputs (as Sheer said). That being said, my DI is better on controller than keyboard... I guess training and habit influence more.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
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Getting good with a keyboard takes legitimate skill and work. If macros weren't allowed, I'd be all for them.

I look at it like any other fighting game, where some people like playing on an arcade-esque controller and others just play with the normal controller. What's the difference here?
 

cmu6eh

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So the people advocating for more freedom of choice are being called dictators?

You guys are advocating for the tyranny of the majority.
 

clubbadubba

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I look at it like any other fighting game, where some people like playing on an arcade-esque controller and others just play with the normal controller. What's the difference here?
I heard smash isn't even a fighting game tho. But in all seriousness I don't think the philosophies of other fighting games should be our bible.

Preferably we would have a community discussion about this, but the problem is something like a vote would be pretty silly just due to almost guaranteed sporadic participation. Honestly I prefer the decision be made by the few Apex TO's than by the community at large, because the community at large can be very stupid. This is the type of discussion that would be appropriate for a backroom type of body. I always liked the idea of the backroom, because it provides at least some sort of consensus that usually represents the community reasonably well. Just because the people in the backroom ended up being lazy for the most part doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

Without a backroom, the tournament scene will be dominated by the rulesets designed by the individual TO(s) of each event. It is a much more scattered approach and instead of going in the direction of a more unified ruleset we are going in the direction of a more divided ruleset because community decisions have not been made on things like hyrule and alternate controllers. I think the community as a whole does need to take a definitive stand on issues like this, but at the moment the community really has no good way to do this.
 

Sangoku

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So the people advocating for more freedom of choice are being called dictators?
Est-ce que la fin justifie les moyens?

I just noticed the old avatars (from the old version of swf) are too small Oo.

And Nintendude1189: I think you could have easily made a consensus if you presented your view differently from the beginning...

I could easily get players here if I accepted to play ffa with items (most of them refuse to play me because 1v1 no item is boring). Fortunately I prioritize ruleset standardization over community growth.
 
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