Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[Bread-Butterer]

Read the rest of the thread, it's rather pertinent. I'm not complaining about your post in particular, but the people blatantly dismissing the game are already here and posting. Read a few of the posts in the thread.

People really gotta get their hands on a final product before making these decisions. I'm not against discussion, heck there were a few things I didn't personally care for as well but the people literally dismissing it in here for not being Melee is disappointing.

triple post

 

[Bread-Butterer]

double post

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Thought I'd post this here.

Q: Any plans for the competitive scene moving forward?

A: Sakurai is not involved in tourney planning. He was impressed with the enthusiasm for this game at today's tourney. He wants to support the scene by making more games like these.

Q: Asking about the balancing of the game.

A: Sakurai says it is hard to balance the game. Discussing the process of balancing. he basically did it all by himself in Melee
Concern over balance after brawl's problems. it gets very technical. Sakurai was responsible for the changes from N64 to Melee. He had to use a broader grading system with help from staff when working on Brawl. The process became tricky due to biases in the graders' playing style. For the new games they have 12 graders, but there could still be balance anomolies. And when creating a game, the developers cannot just appeal to traditional fanbases. They need to reach out to new gamers, and cater to many target users. Sakurai points out some chars are better suited for 2 vs 4 player and with or without items. Sakurai considers smash a party game.

And?

Some people are better in singles/doubles/with ot without items, this is nothing unique to any of the smash games.

I'm so sick of seeing this blatant misrepresentation of the argument at large. We are not dismissing it for not being like Melee. We're dismissing it for having ****ty, limiting mechanics for no reason. You can't convince me that intentionally, needlessly gimped mobility/options in a competitive fighting game is beneficial to anyone who takes the game seriously. It's an effort to service a fanbase (casuals), that simply did not need to be serviced. We know this because the developer has told us this was his intention. It's a legitimate affront to a huge portion of the fanbase who are directly responsible for the series' first two iterations remaining relevant (and selling well), for decades. I guarantee that in a years time, "competitive Brawl" will no longer be a thing. So please, don't tell me it's a simple matter of preference.

Some people are dismissing it for being "not melee" though not everyone.

Only limiting thing for movement is how dashes work right now, still unsure what the deal is there right now off what I watched and viewed.

 

[Calmsmasher]

Eh this doesn't seem like the final build so it could have a couple of changes to the finished product.

 

[AquaTech]

I personally am ecstatic after what I saw today. The gravity being turned up was a huge thing for me, Brawl's biggest weakness was it's floatiness. We saw some decent combos today by people who's played the game for mere hours, or less.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh this doesn't seem like the final build so it could have a couple of changes to the finished product.

Nintendo is taking feedback on the floor for the game.

"Can't speak for the invitational players, but at every booth/TV display setup the Nintendo reps were asking what improvements we thought could be made. At first I thought it wouldn't really go anywhere/they wouldn't listen to specific suggestions, but in the VIP area a competitive player (blanking on his name) suggested less landing lag after ariels, and bigger dash dancing, and they took the time to write it down and make sure they got the terminology correct! They seemed genuinely interested!"

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ash_invitational_participants_players/ci4ftk8

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Read the rest of the thread, it's rather pertinent. I'm not complaining about your post in particular, but the people blatantly dismissing the game are already here and posting. Read a few of the posts in the thread.

People really gotta get their hands on a final product before making these decisions. I'm not against discussion, heck there were a few things I didn't personally care for as well but the people literally dismissing it in here for not being Melee is disappointing.

I'm so sick of this blatant misrepresentation of the argument at large. We are not dismissing it because it's not Melee. We're dismissing it because it has ****ty, limiting mechanics. You can't convince me that needlessly, intentionally gimped mobility/options in a competitive fighting game is beneficial to anyone who plays the game competitively. It was an intentional effort to service a fanbase (casuals), who simply did not need to be serviced. We know this because the lead developer told us it was his intention. It's a legitimate affront to a huge portion of the fanbase who are, in large part, responsible for the first two iterations in the series remaining relevant (and selling well) for decades. Do you think in a years time Brawl will still have a competitive presence? Hint: It won't. Please, stop telling me these gripes are a matter of preference, it's incredibly reductive and dismissive.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Nintendo is taking feedback on the floor for the game.

"Can't speak for the invitational players, but at every booth/TV display setup the Nintendo reps were asking what improvements we thought could be made. At first I thought it wouldn't really go anywhere/they wouldn't listen to specific suggestions, but in the VIP area a competitive player (blanking on his name) suggested less landing lag after ariels, and bigger dash dancing, and they took the time to write it down and make sure they got the terminology correct! They seemed genuinely interested!"

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ash_invitational_participants_players/ci4ftk8

To add to that, Prog tweeted: "The game is a work in progress, but they are listening and asking for advice. For that and the opportunity, #ThankYouNintendo."

That's 2 sources that are saying that the developers are seeking feedback and advice from informed players, so I'm optimistic about the final quality of the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Nintendo is taking feedback on the floor for the game.

"Can't speak for the invitational players, but at every booth/TV display setup the Nintendo reps were asking what improvements we thought could be made. At first I thought it wouldn't really go anywhere/they wouldn't listen to specific suggestions, but in the VIP area a competitive player (blanking on his name) suggested less landing lag after ariels, and bigger dash dancing, and they took the time to write it down and make sure they got the terminology correct! They seemed genuinely interested!"

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ash_invitational_participants_players/ci4ftk8

That's a mild reassurance at best with the game just around the corner. I mean, it's not like they can't make the appropriate adjustments. It'd be easy. But I think if they had any intention to do so it would have already been taken care of.

But hey, there's always the luxury of being wrong.

 

[LancerStaff]

Don't hold your breathe on the horrible balance. Wait until the games out. The game has a huge roster, and roster balance gets exponentially more difficult the larger the roster is. Also, that comment Sakurai made about Samus being the most powerful character in testing isn't really solidifying my belief in their balancing credentials.



Basically this.

And now there's twelve times as many people balancing the game then Melee, worked out the kinks in Brawl's process, have a real fighting game team working on the game, patching is possible, and the people on the game actually give a rat's rear about balance now. Yeah, totally going to be worse then Melee's.

I'm so sick of seeing this blatant misrepresentation of the argument at large. We are not dismissing it for not being like Melee. We're dismissing it for having ****ty, limiting mechanics for no reason. You can't convince me that intentionally, needlessly gimped mobility/options in a competitive fighting game is beneficial to anyone who takes the game seriously. It's an effort to service a fanbase (casuals), that simply did not need to be serviced. We know this because the developer has told us this was his intention. It's a legitimate affront to a huge portion of the fanbase who are directly responsible for the series' first two iterations remaining relevant (and selling well), for decades. I guarantee that in a years time, "competitive Brawl" will no longer be a thing. So please, don't tell me it's a simple matter of preference.

Reality check, competitive players are roughly less then 1%, about half were fine with Brawl, more will move on to SSB4, and even more will play SSB4 with the attention competitive play is getting. Huge? Nah. Most aren't even considering the 3DS version either, so they mean half as much.

 

[hariooo]

Look as much as I respect D1 and Prog and Scar for what they've done in the past (which is a lot), just listening to their commentary during the invitational tournament made me want to mute the stream. I don't think anyone can provide a good argument that they're going to even try to be very objective with regards to Smash 4 now that they're so closely associated with Nintendo. It's just going to be lip service from here on out so I would take everything they say with a huge grain of salt.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Well I do hope that dash dancing comes back since there's no real good excuse to remove it, but otherwise I'm liking the game so far. Just hope that Sakurai wasn't preparing me to be trolled when he said Samus was good this time.


Also, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. Because **** Pac-Man if they're shelved for this one...

 

[NocturnalQuill]

It's not Melee 2. We are never going to get Melee 2. Everyone knew this wasn't going to be Melee 2. Why is everyone up in arms over this? This game is what Brawl should have been.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Yeah, in regards to the feedback thing... Sakurai gets the only say, and he's implemented these changes intentionally. He knows what they did to the game's mechanics. He did it for a reason. Not so optimistic about this news.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

To add to that, Prog tweeted: "The game is a work in progress, but they are listening and asking for advice. For that and the opportunity, #ThankYouNintendo."

That's 2 sources that are saying that the developers are seeking feedback and advice from informed players, so I'm optimistic about the final quality of the game.

It's pretty cool, that and then trying to learn the techs people are describing to them is an additional plus.

That's a mild reassurance at best with the game just around the corner. I mean, it's not like they can't make the appropriate adjustments. It'd be easy. But I think if they had any intention to do so it would have already been taken care of.

But hey, there's always the luxury of being wrong.

I seriously doubt they have to finalize the game right after E3, they already said the large bug fixing team is working on fixing bugs with the game right now.

They are taking feedback for more changes, it's clear they are listening and want to change if they get the feedback for it.

 

[Ulevo]

It's pretty cool, that and then trying to learn the techs people are describing to them is an additional plus.



I seriously doubt they have to finalize the game right after E3, they already said the large bug fixing team is working on fixing bugs with the game right now.

They are taking feedback for more changes, it's clear they are listening and want to change if they get the feedback for it.

What I mean to say is that it's a little silly to assume at this point that Sakurai isn't aware of these little sort of details of gameplay we as a niche community want in our game. They're not absent in the demo because we didn't give them the right recommendations. They're not in the demo because Sakurai and Co. have a specific direction for the game that simply doesn't involve what we would want and expect. I mean, they can tout all they like about how tripping is removed, make it seem like adding a For Glory mode is catering to our needs, add a few Final Destination skins and call it a day. But all of that is not what we really want (minus the tripping), and that's pretty obvious.

Melee is a masterpiece. A sheer, brilliant, incredible masterpiece. And to top it all off, Sakurai had a personal hand in nearly all of it. I refuse to believe Sakurai doesn't know what a dash dance is, and has to have some college students explain the nuances to his development team to make sure its considered. If it's not in already, I'm pretty sure its because its not supposed to be. lol

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

It's pretty cool, that and then trying to learn the techs people are describing to them is an additional plus.



I seriously doubt they have to finalize the game right after E3, they already said the large bug fixing team is working on fixing bugs with the game right now.

They are taking feedback for more changes, it's clear they are listening and want to change if they get the feedback for it.

Maybe Smashboards should try pushing for one or two points of consensus for feedback. Dash dancing and reduced landing lag sound the best imo.

 

[Doser]

All I wanted was edgeguarding, combos, and non-campy play. That doesn't mean I want melee 2.0 at all.

 

[1MachGO]

Maybe Smashboards should try pushing for one or two points of consensus for feedback. Dash dancing and reduced landing lag sound the best imo.

Wavedashing should also be begged back. This isn't an elitist thing; wavedashing/wavelanding allows players to interact with platforms in fluid and interesting ways (see characters like Falco who have an awkward time landing on mid height platforms) as well as filling the gap between air and ground movement. Its a method of control which is sorely missed.

 

[chipz]

I don't like the ledgeguard change as far as ive seen
but dashdancing always looked stupid as hell to me, regardless of how useful

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

And?

Some people are dismissing it for being "not melee" though not everyone.

Only limiting thing for movement is how dashes work right now, still unsure what the deal is there right now off what I watched and viewed.

I got to play a few matches (and if the game plays different in a future game version this post is invalid) But really the only approaches are basically dashes straight at the guy, and jumping into the air and attempting something (whether it be a dair or w/e) and that has some pretty bad landing lag. Short hops aren't really an approach option like they were in melee which is saddening. Some characters have more approach options, but what happened in the finals, is (kirby's approach being absolutely awful vs zoning) is pretty much how it is for approaching.

Now than a lot of characters have zoning tools of their own, but one would think that if the zoning game is so strong that once someone does manage to get close, the combo game would be very strong. Maybe this is a test beta thing or whatever, but DI felt strange and following up on hits didn't feel really fluid. Also just for fox, i think shoving a guy across the screen with repeated shines isn't possible (unsure, maybe i'm just slow..) and i don't know if this was just me but shines felt a bit slower to come out.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

It's really too early to definitively tell either way, but there were some small combos during the invitational. We'll just have to wait and see; I'm sure Melee looked something like this when it was first unveiled.

 

[smashbro29]

They all recovered from aerials pretty damn quickly. Look again.

 

[hariooo]

It's really too early to definitively tell either way, but there were some small combos during the invitational. We'll just have to wait and see; I'm sure Melee looked something like this when it was first unveiled.

Sure, if you're ignorant enough to disregard over a decade of experience with this genre.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

If it's true about Nintendo writing down thoughts from players, I'm pretty sure they genuinely care about the feedback of the fans. Someone took the time to write down what a competitive player suggested and even checked for correct terminology. This is still all a work in progress, so things can change.

 

[Empyrean]

Honestly I was impressed in certain regards. Coming from a PM background, I have high hopes for the game. Admittedly, seeing all the changes in Red Ryu's post made me realize just how drastically different it will be.

Also, it might seem a bit too crazy and far-fetched, but maybe the devs deliberately toned everything down for the demo to prevent the players from making the game seem to complicated. I know this is probably reaching, but you never know.

That said, I want dis game.

 

[hariooo]

If it's true about Nintendo writing down thoughts from players, I'm pretty sure they genuinely care about the feedback of the fans. Someone took the time to write down what a competitive player suggested and even checked for correct terminology. This is still all a work in progress, so things can change.

I think Sakurai's made his position very clear and it's also pretty obvious the buck stops with him. So I don't really share the same optimism regarding this.

 

[Saito]

The only thing I'm sad that's gone is cancelling dashes with a crouch, and dash dancing.

If your opponent runs at you now, they have the option to running grab, run past you, turn (with lag), All 4 aerial attacks, spot dodge, roll behind you, roll away from you, dash attack, or shield.

With a crouch cancel you can add jabs, Dtilts, Utilts, Ftilts, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Run backwards with less lag than a normal turning run.

That's a lot of options.

Needless to say I'm still getting the game though.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I think Sakurai's made his position very clear and it's also pretty obvious the buck stops with him. So I don't really share the same optimism regarding this.

I guess you're right... it's so frustrating though. Sakurai constantly talks about reaching to other fanbases, but I think he just disregards or ignores the competitive fanbase. If he is so focused about catering to all fans, he can prove that claim by taking feedback from all players, including the competitive.

 

[Shaya]

The only thing I'm sad that's gone is cancelling dashes with a crouch, and dash dancing.

If your opponent runs at you now, they have the option to running grab, run past you, turn (with lag), All 4 aerial attacks, spot dodge, roll behind you, roll away from you, dash attack, or shield.

With a crouch cancel you can add jabs, Dtilts, Utilts, Ftilts, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Run backwards with less lag than a normal turning run.

That's a lot of options.

Needless to say I'm still getting the game though.

^ That's what true pivoting was for in Brawl. Excruciatingly hard though. Melee players shy away from it for a reason (so very very few melee top level players use it).

If i was to worry about anything its:
grabs being THAT laggy
no SDI.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Wavedashing should also be begged back. This isn't an elitist thing; wavedashing/wavelanding allows players to interact with platforms in fluid and interesting ways (see characters like Falco who have an awkward time landing on mid height platforms) as well as filling the gap between air and ground movement. Its a method of control which is sorely missed.

I....can live without wavedashing, personally. I think Melee would have still been a great game without it, butI say this knowing that the competitive tournament potential would be smaller without it.

Maybe I'm just certain they won't add it into the game no matter how hard we prostrate ourselves for it. I mean, if they did spend the time putting it back? That'd be cool. Right now I think dash dancing and landing lag are pretty simple and reasonable (not to mention easier) requests.

 

[LancerStaff]

The only thing I'm sad that's gone is cancelling dashes with a crouch, and dash dancing.

If your opponent runs at you now, they have the option to running grab, run past you, turn (with lag), All 4 aerial attacks, spot dodge, roll behind you, roll away from you, dash attack, or shield.

With a crouch cancel you can add jabs, Dtilts, Utilts, Ftilts, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Run backwards with less lag than a normal turning run.

That's a lot of options.

Needless to say I'm still getting the game though.

We've had dashing usmashes since Brawl, and we've seen dashing fsmashes. We might not even need it anymore.

I guess you're right... it's so frustrating though. Sakurai constantly talks about reaching to other fanbases, but I think he just disregards or ignores the competitive fanbase. If he is so focused about catering to all fans, he can prove that claim by taking feedback from all players, including the competitive.

He's said SSB is primarily a casual game, and will serve to the silent majority as he always had. He's against adding these types of things because he doesn't want better players effectively playing with different rules.

 

[TheTuninator]

Hopefully Nintendo 's serious about taking feedback from the pros. Tighter gameplay benefits everyone.

 

[Saito]

We've had dashing usmashes since Brawl, and we've seen dashing fsmashes. We might not even need it anymore.

I'd like to say that we don't need it.

But having more options is almost never a bad thing. In fact, I think it only adds to the gameplay.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd like to say that we don't need it.

But having more options is almost never a bad thing. In fact, I think it only adds to the gameplay.

More options is not always better. More options means it's harder to balance because there's more possibilities and the game is more complicated. And of course, more options just makes the game outright different and not necessarily better.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

If the online play gave accurate pairings based on skill, I don't think Sakurai would have any reason to be coy about the mechanics. Of course, I'd have to see it to believe it first, since Brawl's online was a total joke.

 

[Saito]

More options is not always better. More options means it's harder to balance because there's more possibilities and the game is more complicated. And of course, more options just makes the game outright different and not necessarily better.

That's why I said almost.

 

[hariooo]

More options is not always better. More options means it's harder to balance because there's more possibilities and the game is more complicated. And of course, more options just makes the game outright different and not necessarily better.

lol you sound like someone who should stick to rock paper scissors

 

[BaPr]

- more boobs

Amen to that I have to say. They did a fantastic job in this game. Melee players are obviously not going to like it if they want a completely new Melee game. Who knows, maybe there will be some new type of Project M for the Wii U. Anyways, I loved this game and it was meant to be a mix of Brawl and Melee. By those standards, they did a great job. None of the characters seemed to be way better than the others, but you could tell that there were still matchups that favor one character a lot (Kirby and ZZS).

 

[Mr.C]

Looks like trash to be honest. Brawl 2.0; same hit-stun, same terrible mechanics, no lag canceling (making 90%+ of the cast completely unplayable), auto ledge-snaps, brawls gaming engine. It look likes an HD Brawl that has faster running animations. Not buying the game, that's for sure.