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So, the tier list came out today

Neon Ness

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Yeah, Mario shouldn't be low tier. I've seen too many good Marios and not enough good Bowsers to agree with the list...

Oh yeah, I'm going to a Low Tier Tournament today. Since the president banned Ness and Lucas (:mad:) I'm going to enter as Mario. Wish me luck, everyone!
 

Takeshi245

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All the Mario players need to do is rank higher in tournaments to show what Mario can do. He's middle tier material. We'll just need to prove that. :)
 

Matador

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Thats not what im getting to. -__- Its the fact that Mario has better match ups than Bowser.
I think he's right. In order for Mario to be over Bowser, he'll have to be beaten by the others like Peach or Luigi and start a chain reaction. BTW, I do agree also with BO X7, Bowser isn't better than Mario and Luigi overall. It's basically a biased matchup ever since the two became rivals.

Mario can definately beat Bowser, but as it stands right now, a Mario vs. Bowser match won't effect Bowser's standing on the tier list.

Don't get me wrong -- I agree with you. Mario is definately better than Bowser. I'm just saying that the fact that Mario can beat Bowser won't effect Bowser's ranking very much.
You guys really need to play a good Bowser. He's not nearly as mediocre as you think. I think his spot is well-deserved.

If anybody's spots were a stretch, I'd nominate Ike, Shiek, and Fox. Ike and Fox are overrated. Shiek should be lowtier if Ness, Lucas, Sonic, and Mario are.

Mario can gimp Lucas.
Lucas can recover too high with DI +Zapjump and pull toss or w/e for Mario to reach him with fludd or cape. If he does need to grab the ledge, he has a tether. Mario can't reliably gimp a Lucas that knows the matchup, he'll always want to recover high because Mario ***** his recovery otherwise.
 

Neon Ness

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Funny, I've never fought a Bowser that gave me a really hard time... But maybe now that this grab release thing is out things'll be different... I'm sorta scared to go to the Friend Finder now.

Regarding Mario and the tier list, I don't think we oughta worry about it too much. We're gonna keep using him even if a revised version comes out that says he's lower than Captain Falcon. Tiers are nothing more than echelons in a fictional hierarchy that exists only in the minds of those blinded by their own pretentiousness.
 

Judge Judy

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Yah, but why settle for low tier when he could be so much more. Also, usually low tier character's metagames don't develop as fast as high tiers do.

Has anyone tried release grabs with Mario? Maybe Mario has one, just maybe.
 

Neon Ness

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Yah, but why settle for low tier when he could be so much more. Also, usually low tier character's metagames don't develop as fast as high tiers do.
Really? Why? I'd think that they would develop faster, if everyone's trying so hard to bring down all of those Meta Snakes.
 

Judge Judy

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Cause a lot more people play and focus their time on high tier characters rather than the other way around.
 

Fatmanonice

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Bowser, in my opinion, is basically what you'd get if you mixed DK and Ike. Decent reach and has great KO potential but can greatly suffer from the hand of people with good projectiles, chain grabbers, and people who have decent juggling skills. He's also the easiest character in the game to jab lock and one of the easiest to shield grab too. I personally think he's high in the low tier. As I've said in the past, neither his matchups or his tournament results really suggest that he's that much better than that.
 

Judge Judy

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I pretty much agree with BO X7 on this one, I can't see why Bowser would be above Mario. Maybe Bowser deserves his spot, but Mario also defietly deserves to be higher at least above Bowser.
 

HeroMystic

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If anybody's spots were a stretch, I'd nominate Ike, Shiek, and Fox. Ike and Fox are overrated. Shiek should be lowtier if Ness, Lucas, Sonic, and Mario are.
Ike is not overrated. -_- Hell , over half the SWF boards are saying he should be lower. That doesn't count as overrated to me.
 

Matador

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Bowser, in my opinion, is basically what you'd get if you mixed DK and Ike. Decent reach and has great KO potential but can greatly suffer from the hand of people with good projectiles, chain grabbers, and people who have decent juggling skills. He's also the easiest character in the game to jab lock and one of the easiest to shield grab too. I personally think he's high in the low tier. As I've said in the past, neither his matchups or his tournament results really suggest that he's that much better than that.
Matador, Bowser got buffed but he's not better than Mario. Mario has better match ups.
Where's this "better matchups" talk coming from? No one's even close to done with their matchup discussions and those bull**** matchup charts are far from accurate. On the surface, Bowser seems like your typical bulky character. Highly susceptible to projectile spam, juggling, combos, jablocks, CGs, edgeguarding, the works. That's just the surface.

Hell, if the Bowsers or any of the other un-educated mains wanted to look at Mario on the surface, short range, bad recovery, low KO potential. No combos in brawl so he can't reliably rack up damage, cape doesn't work to edgeguard since you can grab the edge from behind too, Fludd sucks, etc. All of this know this is complete BS, same with the Bowsers and their character. None of us know Bowser as a character well enough to make assumptions like that, especially since , from what I've read, none of us have played a good one; online or offline.

If anything, we should be arguing why Mario should be higher, not why another character should be lower unless we have concrete facts; not this speculation.

Ike is not overrated. -_- Hell , over half the SWF boards are saying he should be lower. That doesn't count as overrated to me.
Then why's he mid tier? Either way, he's too high on the tier list. That's what I'm trying to get at. That's what I mean by overrated.
 

HeroMystic

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Then why's he mid tier? Either way, he's too high on the tier list. That's what I'm trying to get at. That's what I mean by overrated.
Ike has better tourney representation and he has a decent chance of beating any character. Yes, that goes for Mario too. I should know since I main him. He doesn't have any 'nightmare' matchups.

I won't argue about lowering him (although I would rather we would argue about raising Mario above him), but don't say he's overrated.
 

Famous

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Lol, I don't think Ike has a decent chance of beating "any" character...Ike is easily gimped by a WIDE variety of moves effortlessly

More people just use Ike, that's the only reason he's higher on the tier list
 

Matador

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Ike has better tourney representation and he has a decent chance of beating any character. Yes, that goes for Mario too. I should know since I main him. He doesn't have any 'nightmare' matchups.

I won't argue about lowering him (although I would rather we would argue about raising Mario above him), but don't say he's overrated.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Tier Lists showed who has the best chance of succeeding in tourney settings, not who's the sure-thing for a popularity contest. This is why I think tier lists should be based primarily on matchups and influenced little by tourney rankings. They're not accurate representations of a character's potential.
 

BoTastic!

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A lot of the Characters Bowser face Mario does better against them. Example; Toon Link, Rob, Falco, Pit, Diddy Kong, Peach, Wolf, Sonic, Zelda, etc. Bowser is somewhat good against mk but i know Mario is better than Bowser. Im not going by that match up chart or tourney results im going by common sense.
 

Genos

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What would need to happen for Mario to be moved up to mid tier? I also strongly disagree with Wario, Bowser, and Ike's placement. Ike and Bowser have worse matchups against the higher tiers than Mario does and Wario can now be infinited by 8 characters and grabbed released into a kill move by like half the cast.
What? Where'd you see this? Is it in the Chaingrab thread? I'll go look.

Where's this "better matchups" talk coming from? No one's even close to done with their matchup discussions and those bull**** matchup charts are far from accurate.
DanGR's is pretty accurate since both boards have to agree on a matchup before it goes up. Still, it's not nearly close to being finished.
 

Matador

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A lot of the Characters Bowser face Mario does better against them. Example; Toon Link, Rob, Falco, Pit, Diddy Kong, Peach, Wolf, Sonic, Zelda, etc. Bowser is somewhat good against mk but i know Mario is better than Bowser. Im not going by that match up chart or tourney results im going by common sense.
It's hard to remain objective when common knowledge is your reference. It's almost always victim to bias.

Let's say that later today, some random Bowser 2 stocks your best consistently. Can you honestly say that your opinion wouldn't change?
 

Ray/Boshi

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Personally, I think Bowser should be placed 2nd, on the top of mid tier, Olimar being #1, but that's my opinion, nothing more nothing less. A good Bowser is nothing nice or easy to combat against. (Luckily there isnt too many Bowser players. Which raises my question on this list being more on overall potential of a said character, and the rest on tourney results. Aint no Bowser'a in alot of tourney's, I imagine?

To bring this post back to Mario, there's only so much that Mario can do potential wise. In comparison to every character that's above him, so I can see it in a sense.

Where i'm getting at Is, playing as Mario it will become 'The potential of the man behind the Mario' that's winning the match. Not the potential of the character. MK for example, since he's on top.
 

HeroMystic

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Lol, I don't think Ike has a decent chance of beating "any" character...Ike is easily gimped by a WIDE variety of moves effortlessly

More people just use Ike, that's the only reason he's higher on the tier list
That's like saying Mario can effortlessly combo every heavy character in the game.

Only an idiot Ike would allow himself to be gimped by a large variety of moves effortlessly. In fact, that goes for all the characters. There are only two characters that can effortlessly gimp Ike: Metaknight(duh) and Samus(Z-air). Every other character has to actually work to gimp him.

And more people use Ike yes, but more people LOSE with him rather than win with him. I'm quite surprised myself he made mid tier and I'm quite satisfied with where he is at. At least when a Mario main goes to a tourney they actually get some winnings.

In Brawl, there are four heavily underrated characters: Ike, Sonic, Link, and Mario. You guys should stop complaining about so-and-so character should be lower and start working on ways to get Mario higher. The characters who deserve to be lower will in due time.
 

Da Man

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In Brawl, there are four heavily underrated characters: Ike, Sonic, Link, and Mario. You guys should stop complaining about so-and-so character should be lower and start working on ways to get Mario higher. The characters who deserve to be lower will in due time.
Not to go off-topic but I think Ness is also underrated since he is so low in the character rankings and people don't use his up-B very well.
 

Matador

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That's like saying Mario can effortlessly combo every heavy character in the game.

Only an idiot Ike would allow himself to be gimped by a large variety of moves effortlessly. In fact, that goes for all the characters. There are only two characters that can effortlessly gimp Ike: Metaknight(duh) and Samus(Z-air). Every other character has to actually work to gimp him.

And more people use Ike yes, but more people LOSE with him rather than win with him. I'm quite surprised myself he made mid tier and I'm quite satisfied with where he is at. At least when a Mario main goes to a tourney they actually get some winnings.

In Brawl, there are four heavily underrated characters: Ike, Sonic, Link, and Mario. You guys should stop complaining about so-and-so character should be lower and start working on ways to get Mario higher. The characters who deserve to be lower will in due time.
QFT

10chars
 

SkylerOcon

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That's like saying Mario can effortlessly combo every heavy character in the game.

Only an idiot Ike would allow himself to be gimped by a large variety of moves effortlessly. In fact, that goes for all the characters. There are only two characters that can effortlessly gimp Ike: Metaknight(duh) and Samus(Z-air). Every other character has to actually work to gimp him.

And more people use Ike yes, but more people LOSE with him rather than win with him. I'm quite surprised myself he made mid tier and I'm quite satisfied with where he is at. At least when a Mario main goes to a tourney they actually get some winnings.

In Brawl, there are four heavily underrated characters: Ike, Sonic, Link, Mario, and Captain Falcon. You guys should stop complaining about so-and-so character should be lower and start working on ways to get Mario higher. The characters who deserve to be lower will in due time.
Fix'd.

Falcon really isn't that bad.

Also, QFT
 

Judge Judy

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Sonic is underused? I never see him played in tournies but tons of Sonic fans flock to him.
 

Neon Ness

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Not to go off-topic but I think Ness is also underrated since he is so low in the character rankings and people don't use his up-B very well.
Yeah, he's a little underrated, and underrepresented. When I was at that Low Tier Tournament, there was another Ness there... The president said "You're the first serious Ness player I've ever seen!" But he ended up winning, so chalk another point down for the Ness community, I guess.
 

neon..?

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mario isn't underrated.. he's better then where he is in the tier list imo.
 

BoTastic!

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Let's say that later today, some random Bowser 2 stocks your best consistently. Can you honestly say that your opinion wouldn't change?
The same can happen with Falcon. I got beaten by bowser before >_>
That just means he's better thn me.
 

Judge Judy

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I mastered the straight up Up B thing, it's improved my recovery distance tons, just keep practicing.
 

Kitamerby

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Only an idiot Ike would allow himself to be gimped by a large variety of moves effortlessly. In fact, that goes for all the characters. There are only two characters that can effortlessly gimp Ike: Metaknight(duh) and Samus(Z-air). Every other character has to actually work to gimp him.
Lucario (Aura Sphere > Aether/Quick Draw), Kirby (Inhale, Dair, Bair), Pikachu (Thunder Jolt, Thunder), Fox (Shine, Bair), Wolf (Lasers, Bair, Dair), everyone else (Fsmash to Edgehog, Airdodge Quick Draw, Neutral B, Fair, Bair, Dair, Nair). The fact is that Ike's recovery sucks. Don't try to cover it up by saying that only two characters can "effortlessly gimp" him (which is false). Anyone can just hug the edge when he does Aether, or pop out a projectile when he rears his head above the stage, or simply smash his face in or airdodge when he does Quick Draw. He falls fast, his recovery moves are extremely punishable and VERY easy to prevent. If you just knock him out of his second jump, he is literally unable to recover, unlike most other people with useful Up B moves. The fact that Aether can't sweetspot the ledge on its way up is also a huge problem, since even if he IS in sweetspot range, he can just get knocked back out again by anything if the person is too lazy to just hug the edge.



In Brawl, there are four heavily underrated characters: Ike, Sonic, Link, and Mario. You guys should stop complaining about so-and-so character should be lower and start working on ways to get Mario higher. The characters who deserve to be lower will in due time.
Ike is underrated by many people, and has quite a few things going for him, but the truth is that his weaknesses are just way too easy to exploit if you play smartly. He deserves low tier, which is exactly where he would be if the tier list was divided into more categories. Sonic isn't that underrated. I've fought good Sonics before, and I can tell you that they can be a tough cookie to crack: but only until you get the timing on knocking him out of the spin dash. Once you have that timing, Sonic is absolutely TOAST. Sonic will do well against opponents until they start realizing that "Hey! Wait a second! This guy has no priority! How about I jab the air so that he rams into it so I can continue my assault?" Sonic will surprise your opponents, but only to a point. Once they have experience with the matchup, pretty much ANYONE can **** Sonic. Link, I'm not really sure about, but his recovery really is THAT bad. Mario? Perhaps. Super Jump Punch doesn't have the greatest distance, but it has a ton of priority and a very large sweetspot. He does have a problem if he doesn't have his double jump, and he doesn't have too many recovery options, but that shouldn't be his main problem. I personally believe that his main problem is that he was meant to be balanced. By forcefully balancing him out, they unfortunately did the opposite, since compared to the other characters in the roster, he really isn't that good.

Not to go off-topic but I think Ness is also underrated since he is so low in the character rankings and people don't use his up-B very well.
Ness I'm actually torn on. On one hand, he has the grab-release problem, a completely unreliable Up B recovery, and he has a hard time getting kills if he can't land that grab. On the other hand, he has great combo potential, the strongest throw in the game, the most powerful spike (at low %) and some nice aerial priority.

Personally, I think he should be in the lower section of the real mid tier. <<
 

Matador

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I started to agree Kitamberby...until I saw this.

Ness I'm actually torn on. On one hand, he has the grab-release problem, a completely unreliable Up B recovery, and he has a hard time getting kills if he can't land that grab. On the other hand, he has great combo potential, the strongest throw in the game, the most powerful spike (at low %) and some nice aerial priority.

Personally, I think he should be in the lower section of the real mid tier. <<
What makes Ness more deserving than Mario of Mid tier?

I personally think Sonic's main disadvantage is KO power, not priority since his tilts, Bair, and Uair have a ton. Everything else in his arsenal is a little below average priority but most of it links into other attacks from Spindash.
 

Judge Judy

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I know the problems and weaknesses with Mario but it seems like a lot aguements don't even make sense. In tier discussion people were saying Mario isn't good at edgeguarding. I don't know, something just doesn't make sense and it really stinks.
 
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