So I guess ICs are "S Tier" now :) / :( ?

[DarkFlameX]

If I know I have the potential to win, Ill go for it, but I still think its lame how they keep MKs 2 best stages in the game, and eliminate his ONLY bad stage, which was also my favorite go to CP stage (pictochat) ...

 

[DeLux]

A character's strength/weakness on the stage is not the only criteria in determining the legality of the stage.

 

[Roller]

Apex ruleset should be sandard, imo. I've heard significantly less *****ing about Apex's (Brawl) list than I have about Unity's. The community as a whole seems to be fine with it, and it seems that more people are pissed at the mk auto win stages nowadays than they are at mk himself.

 

[DeLux]

Not going to significantly debate what you've heard locally/personally, but your last statement is about as unsubstantiated a claim as one could make :\

If the community wanted it, it WOULD be the standard. But speaking based on a rough count more tournies run URS than Apex Ruleset(at least posted on SWF). I suspect that there's going to be a huge spike in tournies running ARS leading up to Apex, but it'll phase out come January 9 when the hard ban hits. Consistently through voluntary straw polls (AZ's on AIB and some BBR stuff), MK and stages have been seen as independent issues by the community.

Don't get me wrong, I think people should run whatever rules they want to run at a tournament to make it successful. I think you're mistaking the outspoken critics of the ban and their sentiment for common opinion rather than community TO actions

 

[Roller]

TOs are using it so that they can 1) get into the urc, 2) stay in the urc, or 3) get stickied.

I'm talking about how if you look on the Apex thread, the debates are all about the melee ruleset and the pool sizes. Nobody that I've seen so far has yet to make a comment to the effect of, "the brawl stagelist is horrible, and I feel it is unfair." Whereas I do see this happen in threads for rc/brin legal tourneys.

Everything that I'm saying is all essentially hearsay/my experiences/recent board activity I've seen tho. Not trying to make a sophisticated argument in this thread..

 

[Rubberbandman]

TOs are using it so that they can 1) get into the urc, 2) stay in the urc, or 3) get stickied.

I feel this is very true, many people would run the URC's set just because of the "political power" that the URC has on the community. It's becoming a lot more about politics than what people think is right.

 

[Hylian]

Smaller stagelists are dumb. RC/Brinstar are perfectly fine stage.

 

[Roller]

That's easy to say with a in your pocket...

 

[Sieguest]

Smash politics.....
OLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Next thing I know I'm going to see campaign ads bashing the Unity ruleset in favor of the Apex ruleset and vice versa.

 

[Hylian]

It's not about the characters I play. That is insanely bias. You really think I do better with the counterpick stages on? My IC's are waaaayyyyyyyyyy better than my GW. My GW is my 5th best character lol.

If a character is bad on several stages then that is an inherent character flaw and makes them worse as a character. Banning stages like people are now is just trying to arbitrarily balance the game(which we shouldn't try to do) in favor of a certain set of characters. That logic is hurtful towards a games depth and shouldn't be applied to anything.

You remove stages because they are broken, have too much unaccountable for randomness or over centralize to one to two viable characters. Most peoples views are just created from bias towards their character or local scene and friends opinions. Few people logically think out why stages should be banned.

 

[Roller]

Firstly, you're taking my posts way too seriously. Unless I put some type of "/realtalk" or whatnot after my posts I either don't care much about what I'm saying, or I'm saying it for lulz.

Second, doesn't matter how good your is now, because people know that you have one, and thus wont cp you to rc half as often. Allowing you to use your main char pretty much every game on a stage that doesn't **** the character over. That's why the pocket gw is so helpful, not because of what it can do, but what it prevents your opponents from doing.

Third, I use pika as well, and have been saying that pika is one of the best characters in the game on rc for quite a while now. I still think it shouldn't be used in tourneys. It's not my bias, it's a stage that changes the dynamic of the game to a degree almost no other stages match.

I also believe that Brinstar overcentralizes to only about 6 viable characters in a 30+ character cast. But I could be wrong.



This post is not to be taken too seriously.

 

[Hylian]

You can just post serious stuff and then say "This post is not to be taken seriously" how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

Also, people counterpick me to RC more often than not, and I lose more often than not. How is the dynamic of the game changed in the slightest on RC? Completely disagree on the brinstar thing as well. IC's/Falco aren't very viable on brinstar, everyone else is perfectly fine.

 

[Tmacc]

You can just post serious stuff and then say "This post is not to be taken seriously" how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

Also, people counterpick me to RC more often than not, and I lose more often than not. How is the dynamic of the game changed in the slightest on RC? Completely disagree on the brinstar thing as well. IC's/Falco aren't very viable on brinstar, everyone else is perfectly fine.

...when was the last time you lost on RC with Game and Watch?

/devilsadvocate

 

[Hylian]

...when was the last time you lost on RC with Game and Watch?

/devilsadvocate

I lost to ripples shiek on RC with GW. I am good against MK's there, horrible against every other character lol.

 

[DarkFlameX]

You can just post serious stuff and then say "This post is not to be taken seriously" how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

Also, people counterpick me to RC more often than not, and I lose more often than not. How is the dynamic of the game changed in the slightest on RC? Completely disagree on the brinstar thing as well. IC's/Falco aren't very viable on brinstar, everyone else is perfectly fine.

I dont know dude, I use a lot of characters, I can tell which are viable on a stage etc. Out of the whole entire brawl cast, who are the most likely characters to select brinstar as their counterpick? now compare that to the rest of the roster. If Im an IC main, there is no way in hell for example that a snake main or even a rob main that will CP you there o_O. imo only MK, gnw, and wario with the exceptions of a few others will find that stage viable for them, it hurts the rest of the smash roster. but yeah, I agree with roller on this one.

 

[Hylian]

"Viable" and "Best Stage" are completely different.

Look at your statement in another light: "Out of the whole entire brawl cast, who are the most likely characters to select Final D as their counterpick? Now compare that to the rest of the roster."

Really? Besides, tons of characters take IC's to brinstar. Snake/Rob/Mk/GW/Wario/Ness/Lucas/Ike/Jiggs/Bowser/ZSS etc etc I don't even need to name more, almost the entire cast can.

It doesn't "hurt" the roster in any way. People only look at top tiers for some reason when plenty of characters are fine on the stage.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

When I mained ICs, RC was

Now I main yoshi and RC is

 

[DeLux]

TOs are using it so that they can 1) get into the urc, 2) stay in the urc, or 3) get stickied.

1. We have had two applications in the last two months. I DON'T think the numbers support this claim

2. This would only apply to the 16 people in the URC. This may or may not be true. I can tell you right now that a strong number of that 16 supports the URS, but I'm not allowed to speak for other people. So that's 15-X people. I think X is larger than 8 ( a majority of people) but that's speculation on my part.

3. 90% of tournaments won't get stickied regardless of the ruleset they run. The numbers can't really support this claim on a logical level.

I'm talking about how if you look on the Apex thread, the debates are all about the melee ruleset and the pool sizes. Nobody that I've seen so far has yet to make a comment to the effect of, "the brawl stagelist is horrible, and I feel it is unfair." Whereas I do see this happen in threads for rc/brin legal tourneys.

Everything that I'm saying is all essentially hearsay/my experiences/recent board activity I've seen tho. Not trying to make a sophisticated argument in this thread..

I won't go into much more arguing then.


@Darkflame: Let's say you banned Rainbow Cruise. I'd bet the following characters would have a hard time NOT CPing to Brinstar: Marth, Wario, Olimar, Pikachu, Lucario, DDD, ZSS, GnW, TL, Wolf, Peach, DK, Kirby, Rob, Pit, Ike, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi, PT, Lucas, Mario, Bowser, Samus, CF, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganon.

On starters these characters will most definitely lose by ALOT but are significantly helped by the stage to the point where it's no longer unwinnable: DDD, GnW, Kirby, Luigi, Sheik, Lucas, Mario, Bowser, CF, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganon.

 

[tekkie]

if i wanna pick up ICs where should i start? desyncs? CHAINGRABS???!!?!?!!?

 

[DarkFlameX]

oh well. but like I said, Illl still duke it out on those stages if I have to. I think Ive used them for CPs for IC dittos, I knew the stages well to the extent where not many other ICs have. Yes, I am evil like that sometimes >:D

 

[Roller]

To be fair though, ICs on Brinstar is a reverse extreme of MK on Brinstar. One gets wrecked by virtually the entire cast there, the other ***** virtually the entire cast there. If we were to take out these 2 outliars, the stage becomes dominated by and centered around the use of very few characters.

/realtalk


Tekkie, desynchs before cgs.

 

[DarkFlameX]

if i wanna pick up ICs where should i start? desyncs? CHAINGRABS???!!?!?!!?

Control. Its vital that you learn HOW to use them and how to FIGHT with them before anything else. ICs have the some of the most high potentials and capabilities for success. At the same time, they are like glass where as once they get split up and broken, they arent as viable anymore. So yeah, just focus becoming a smarter player with them before anything else, learn how to be synced with them (vital for recovery). They are an awesome secondary to pick up, and you can practice that cg every now and then, but learn how to impliment your fighting style first, and then learn how to create set ups and punishes for grabs. Desyncs are useful but not essential for ICs, but just learn simple ones like dash dance desync, pivot desync, things that are quick and dont give up too much space for your positioning on stage. CGs you can practice all day, I recommend learning the infinites and hand-offs. Hobbling is there if you cant get them down lol. When I first started out, I practice just f-throw cgs, once I got those timings down, it got easier to learn the timings on everything else. I dont recommend learning dthrow to nana f-air anymore, the metagame has advanced and people know how to SDI out of it or simply mash out since it takes too many frames to pull off.
Videos I would recommmend-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4
the f-throws in here are the ones I was talking about when I first started
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSkCGa_J5wY
and when you get better at it, try moving on to infinites like this, PM me for any other questions you'll probably have =)

 

[DeLux]

Tekkie, don't waste your time learning the dash dance and pivot desyncs. Unless the dash dance is the Two Dash Dance (aka Kakera) where Nana attacks first without having to do Popo shield dropping. Learn SND rather than pivot if you need a neutral spacing option.

Learn how to Dthrow walk everyone since it's the most lenient frame window and spacing window of all the CGs. And they are easy to visual cue if you don't know the timing by muscle memory. They also end up being the least mashable as well.

If you're going to do a standing CG, learn the P Fthrow > N Bthrow. If you're doing something else (with Popo Bthrowing especially), you are wasting your time learning a non-tripless standing CG.

To be fair though, ICs on Brinstar is a reverse extreme of MK on Brinstar. One gets wrecked by virtually the entire cast there, the other ***** virtually the entire cast there. If we were to take out these 2 outliars, the stage becomes dominated by and centered around the use of very few characters.

Ok, removing ICs and MK from the picture, there are very few characters that are unviable on the stage. I mean, Wario/GnW/Ness/Mario love the stage (plus more, but I don't pocket those characters so I wont' definitively claim them), but there's little to no evidence to suggest that play would only centralize on a few characters when you just admitted that only two outliers effect the viability of the stage usage.

 

[Hylian]

I disagree with lux, learn all the desynchs. Using the same options over and over again will just get you punished, no matter how good said options are.

 

[DeLux]

Bait taken

THAT MEANS YOU SHOULD GO LEARN LD1 AND LD2 HYLIAN BECAUSE YOU WOULD BE FREAKING BROKEN IF YOU DID (in combination with the other superlatives of your desync game)

I win :D :D :D

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Lux just frame trapped Hylian into a legit CG.


Dang.

 

[DarkFlameX]

imo, I prefer the syncd style of fighting so much more than desyncd. desyncing climbers sometimes makes it easier for opponents to separate you. but thats just me, there is no correct way to fight as ICs

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Desynced allowes grap setups.
It's better. But harder and runs some risk.

 

[DeLux]

I hope people buy into the whole "synced is better" philosophy so that when they play me they have no idea wtf is going on regardless of how much IC experience they have :D

 

[Xubble]

I can do the SND and manage to do SH Blizzard hops. That's about the extent of my desync mastery. >_>

 

[DeLux]

Congrats, you just learned how to beat like 1/3rd of the cast, assuming you can CG

 

[Xubble]

'm at the "CGing in training is not the sane as in a match" stage. >_<

 

[TheSaintKai]

It's not about the characters I play. That is insanely biased.

If a character is bad on several stages then that is an inherent character flaw and makes them worse as a character.

You remove stages because they are broken, have too much unaccountable for randomness or over centralize to one to two viable characters.

Btw, the reason I don't think IC's are number one is because of the statement I have enlarged. We're definitely the best character in the game (EXCEPT MAYBE DIDDY KONG IF PEOPLE WOULD USE PSNL) if RC and BS aren't accounted for.

I think Diddy is one, Marth is two, and ICs are three. 7 stage neutrals (Castle Siege and PS2.)

In my opinion.

Edit: Just realized that we're way past that.

#tunnelvision

 

[tekkie]

desyncs are just as fun as CGs anyways, and turning the ICs into high risk/high reward craziness is way fun

anything i should know about popo fthrow>nana bthrow>repeat? the guide says the bthrow grab is "Popo Buffered turnaround Regrab"; what does that mean as far as the inputs go? hit back on the dstick and buffer a grab or something?

 

[Rubberbandman]

I'd say to learn the standard before learning Lux's grab first, just in case.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If you haven't started memorizing CG timings, learn Lux's CG. It is the best. For the characters you have too much difficulty with (you can ask Lux for a list of hardest to easiest, or at least hardest) you can THEN learn CGs according to them.

 

[tekkie]

which is Lux's and what are the exact inputs?

 

[Smoom77]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306999

 

[tekkie]

anything i should know about popo fthrow>nana bthrow>repeat? the guide says the bthrow grab is "Popo Buffered turnaround Regrab"; what does that mean as far as the inputs go? hit back on the dstick and buffer a grab or something?

my question still stands lol

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I just kinda...
Fthrow bthrow fthrow bthrow fthrow bthrow.
Try on bowser. You know, to get the muscle memory familiar, then try some other dudes.
Fthrow Bthrow on bowser is like D3 on DK.
Easy.