It was one of the first things I noticed when I got brawl. Samus it just a hole lot weaker on the whole. At first I told myself I just needed to adapt to the new game but its been a couple mounts now. I've throughly adapted my Jigs and Peach, my Zelda got a automatic boost and not much adaption was needed. Samus however still seems to lose horribly. I don't know what to do now. I don't want to drop her, she's my favorite character, always has been from going back to the 64 days. But now I even have difficulty defeating a L9 CPU with her. I'm in desperate need of advice.
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So does Samus suck now, or am I missing somthing
- Thread starter G3rain1
- Start date
I think what kills her is the increased size, utter lack of priority in aerials (I hate you, Marth), weak projectiles, garbage bombs, and A TOTAL LACK OF REASONABLE KILLING MOVES.
Zair can only do so much. Sure, I can rack up damage by being extremely campy, but what good is it if landing a KO is so ridiculously hard? To worsen the situation, Samus is incredibly light, so she dies rather early.
What I love of her so far? Her Up-B, d-tilt, uair, and zair. Use Up-B whenever the opponent sets to approach you aerially; it really racks up nasty damage. Dair should have some super armor frames; most fast characters can knock you out of it before you complete it.
I love Samus, but I am disappointed. You need to play impeccably in order to even have a chance.
Zair can only do so much. Sure, I can rack up damage by being extremely campy, but what good is it if landing a KO is so ridiculously hard? To worsen the situation, Samus is incredibly light, so she dies rather early.
What I love of her so far? Her Up-B, d-tilt, uair, and zair. Use Up-B whenever the opponent sets to approach you aerially; it really racks up nasty damage. Dair should have some super armor frames; most fast characters can knock you out of it before you complete it.
I love Samus, but I am disappointed. You need to play impeccably in order to even have a chance.
Orichalcum
Smash Journeyman
Samus is not incredibly light -_-
Uair? It does hardy anything and is extremely difficult to hit with, Id just as soon use Fair which almost always hits.
And Zair for some reason does an air dodge alot, or else id use it more. How do i avoid this?
Paradigm
Smash Ace
G3rain1, if you could bear with Samus in her Smash64 days you hold out here, too.
I defeat L9's with ease - Samus' potential ceiling is not anywhere near that low. You're just not used to her yet. She's quite different. If you want to stick with her then watch videos of solid Sami players and try and see what they're doing differently than you and use it. Once you get a general idea of how she's played, expand on it in your own matches.
You can zair while airdodging - if you accidentally air dodge just hit z again.
I defeat L9's with ease - Samus' potential ceiling is not anywhere near that low. You're just not used to her yet. She's quite different. If you want to stick with her then watch videos of solid Sami players and try and see what they're doing differently than you and use it. Once you get a general idea of how she's played, expand on it in your own matches.
You can zair while airdodging - if you accidentally air dodge just hit z again.
Put up with her? She completely destroyed in 64. She's gotten progressively worse in every game.
Got any good ones? I've tried watching a few but those tricks never seem to work for me. I can't just emulate someone else's style. Thats never worked.
I didn't know that about the using the Zair while in air dodge, but alot of times its to late to do it again. It seems to happen most ofter when trying to use it grape the edge of the stage or hit someone who's edge guarding and by then I end up in the pit. Not usually when I'm on the stage though.
She's as light as Marth, but she has enough horizontal resistance to last about 15% more than a Marth can against side-launching moves.
Granted I don't play Samus, but as Link, you can just do the 'shield grab' motion, forcing an airdodge and a Z-air.
Paradigm
Smash Ace
Samus was easily one of if not the worst in Smash64. Rather than going off topic we can discuss it in the Smash64 section of the boards. Hint: She can't zero-to-death nearly as well as most other characters.G3rain1 said:
Don't just copy tricks or style, but try and see what specifically they're doing differently and think about why. Why would these other players win a match you wouldn't? I'd gladly record a match against an L9 for to you look at and see what I'm doing different so that I don't have any problems at all while you're struggling. That is, if I had the right equipment for it ):
Not sure why you're accidentally air dodging when you want to zair. Are you hitting z while Samus can't do a move - when she's busy doing something else? It might be buffering in an air dodge. Zair is huge in Samus' game now for things other than recovery. Try and learn to do it on the stage offensively. If you land while it's out there's very little lag - you can just keep going. Thats the crux of my entire game right now - if you don't use it at all there's a good chance adding it to your game can improve it immensely. Short hop and zair so that when it just becomes fully extended you land so you can follow it up. I believe it's the longest (non-projectile) dijointed hitbox in the game. For a move that can't be reflected or absorbed the zair outranges everyone else's everything.
No, she's most definitely one of the heavier characters. Much heavier than Marth. I believe only Bowser, DK and Dedede are heavier (maybe Charizard too?) but thats it. There's a chart somewhere I can find. Or, ya'know, I can just notice every time the character I use most gets hit how she doesn't go back nearly as far as almost every other character in the game.Tenki said:
Ummm, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Samus is a medium weight character, along with Marth, Link, Mario, Lugi, etc.
Where as people who are heavier are; Wario, Charizard, Ike, DK, Bowser, 3D, etc.
And maybe C. Falcon?
HugS
Smash Champion
Samus is one of the heaviest characters.
I'm pretty sure she's the 5th heaviest after dk bowser D3 and ganon.
And she was ****ty in 64, amazing in melee, and in brawl...well, you know.
I'm pretty sure she's the 5th heaviest after dk bowser D3 and ganon.
And she was ****ty in 64, amazing in melee, and in brawl...well, you know.
I tested her relative to Marth on side KO's and vertical KO's.
Vertically, she's about the same, like.. within 5% the same. Horizontally, she's 'heavier'/ harder to KO by about 15%. Not counting stale moves.
That's not a bad thing, considering that Ike is treated about 15% heavier than Marth all-around.
Gum
Smash Journeyman
As to the original question, you are definitely missing something. Samus is at LEAST high tier like she was in melee. I just got back from a C3 tournament last night, and I busted every metaknight's *** that I came across. Samus is amazing.
Yeah, high tier is not happening.
They took away her range, they made her easier to hit, nerfed her projectile game, and took away her speed and KO power.
I'm pretty disappointed. I've been spending some time with her, wanting to prove naysayers wrong, but she is just too easy to slap around. ZSS is by far the superior incarnation.
I'm just telling you, if you disliked getting beat by Marths in melee, you'll hate how easily Marths this time around will destroy you. That ****ed blade dance spam/UpB out of shield/ lightning fast fsmash tipper KO at 90% is cheesy as hell.
They took away her range, they made her easier to hit, nerfed her projectile game, and took away her speed and KO power.
I'm pretty disappointed. I've been spending some time with her, wanting to prove naysayers wrong, but she is just too easy to slap around. ZSS is by far the superior incarnation.
I'm just telling you, if you disliked getting beat by Marths in melee, you'll hate how easily Marths this time around will destroy you. That ****ed blade dance spam/UpB out of shield/ lightning fast fsmash tipper KO at 90% is cheesy as hell.
How can Samus mains not realize she's a heavyweight? o_o In Melee she had arguably the best physics in the game, and in Brawl the principle is still the same. Granted the new engine nerfs some of her Melee buffs she's still a heavyweight.
0RLY
A great conversation filler at bars and parties
Samus is definitely Heavy-Weight. It's been proven a while ago. Samus' strong suits are attack speed, and recovery. If you're not taking advantage of these, you're not using her right. Also, you need to use her zair. When spaced properly, it is unpunishable. I don't know how uair is so hard to land for you, just use it when your opponent is above you. Make sure you take note of when your opponent air dodges, since you'll want to hit your opponent when the air dodge is over.
Samus has absolutely no landing lag on any of her aerials so if you fast fall her attacks properly, you will always have a hitbox around you when landing, making it harder for opponents to catch you. Zair, Missiles, Bombs, and to an extent, the Charge Shot are all great spacing tools. Use them to force your opponent to approach you in a certain way, then punish.
Samus actually "counters" Marth in my opinion. Samus can spam zair all day long and Marth can't touch you. Samus' disjointed hitbox > Marth's. After Marth reaches a high percentage, zair can send him flying a reasonable distance away, you can even chase him offstage with zairs. The job gets even easier when you have a charge shot under your belt.
Samus is a great character for countering other characters, it's just that Samus is easy to be countered also. This is probably why she ranks so low on the tier list.
Samus has absolutely no landing lag on any of her aerials so if you fast fall her attacks properly, you will always have a hitbox around you when landing, making it harder for opponents to catch you. Zair, Missiles, Bombs, and to an extent, the Charge Shot are all great spacing tools. Use them to force your opponent to approach you in a certain way, then punish.
Samus actually "counters" Marth in my opinion. Samus can spam zair all day long and Marth can't touch you. Samus' disjointed hitbox > Marth's. After Marth reaches a high percentage, zair can send him flying a reasonable distance away, you can even chase him offstage with zairs. The job gets even easier when you have a charge shot under your belt.
Samus is a great character for countering other characters, it's just that Samus is easy to be countered also. This is probably why she ranks so low on the tier list.
Uair is hard to land because they seem always to slip out of the spin. it like does one or two week hits then they slip out the side and destroy me because the hits are too week to stun.
And all that strategy seems great for dealing damage but how to you KO ? Only Bair seems to have an knock back. Fsmash too but the range on it is pathetic now.
You can't be serious. Marth's approach, if done in a smart manner, can easily circumvent zair spam.
Marth's air game> Samus's. So is his ground game. What do you have going for you? Projectiles & Zair. Assuming you get to land at least 2 projectiles, that's only around 10-20% damage done. Setting him up for a dtilt or fsmash kill is outright impossible if he spaces correctly. You can camp all you want; chances are that he still will be alive at ~180% while just waiting to nail you with a tipper to kill you at 90-120%.
But, yeah, now I'm rambling about Marth's cheesiness instead of Samus's mediocre design. I guess I'm just bitter. Jiggs? Sucks now. Link? Should've been everything Toon Link is. Zelda's OK, but the charm has worn off with how monotonous her gameplay is. Yoshi? Meh. Pokemon Trainer? Only Squirtle is decent. Meanwhile, the characters that I hate the most for being uninspired and atrocious additions to the roster (R.O.B., G & W, TL) turn out to be stupidly good. In fact, it just so happens that on the whole, the new characters turned out to be the best. Pair that with the idiotic nerfs to Samus, Ganon, Sheik, and C. Falcon to the point where they are no longer competitive, and I'm just disappointed.
Meh. I'll have to conform to TL, ZSS, and Wario. In the meantime, knock yourself out. I really hope you find out some redeeming stuff for Samus, because I adore what she represents as a character.
Gum
Smash Journeyman
I wouldn't be speaking about Samus being good unless I used her in tourneys a lot and saw the results for myself, which I do. Against Marth and Meta Knight, bombs are amazing. This almost nullifies their ground approaches and allows you to keep pegging them with uncharged shots, and power missiles. How do I know this? Because I do it. Yes, going into the air against Marth is a bad idea, but the best thing about Samus is that she is adaptable as hell and has a wide variety of strategies against different characters. I would actually say that bombs are more precious in the fight against MK ad Marth than zair, because they are both fast enough to get under the zair most of the time.
1. Her projectile game is fine.
2. Her speed is also fine. Not slow in the least, and If you are a good Samus player then you know how to speed her up more. Check her running speed compared to the rest of the cast and see if it is really "slow"
3. KO power, not great. Off-stage combat + spike/gimping is amazing. Learn how to kill your opponent quicker given your advantages instead of complaining about ko power. Most of my kills with Samus now happen between 80% and 120%, and given the fact that she does a lot of damage per hit, thats pretty ****ing good.
A guy at this last big tourney asked me "So who do you main?" When I told him that I mained Samus, he laughed and said "Wow, really? I thought she was horrible now?" I was just like "Yeah, she sucks" and then proceeded to **** every Marth and MK i came across the entire day.
What I mean is that she is potentially high tier material, not that she is going to make high tier. The tier list isn't going to be nearly as important in Brawl because there are so many more characters, some of which are just going to be more unpopular than others. In tourneys I see mostly MK. This means that MK has a higher chance of winning simply because so many people use him, not because he CANT be beaten. Samus is a character that only dedicated people are going to use in tourney. This might put her low on the tier list, but that doesnt mean she CANT make high tier based on her character. Lets get that straight.
No, no, no... Zair and Screw Attack...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
im sorry but do you play with ppl whose shoulder buttons are broken. because as far as i can tell:
if you dont space it perfectly, marth should be able to run right under the z air, just like falcos SHL's in melee.
also what have you brought up that a simple airdodged short hop or even an airdodged full jump cant remedy, if you beat marths spaming one move, you dont play good marths.
there is a counter to every tactic so, if you base your whole game on one move, eventually, (sooner rather than later) they will break your technique and by the transitive property they will have broken your entire game.
if you dont space it perfectly, marth should be able to run right under the z air, just like falcos SHL's in melee.
also what have you brought up that a simple airdodged short hop or even an airdodged full jump cant remedy, if you beat marths spaming one move, you dont play good marths.
there is a counter to every tactic so, if you base your whole game on one move, eventually, (sooner rather than later) they will break your technique and by the transitive property they will have broken your entire game.
King Kuma
Smash Apprentice
I give samus some credit. Her ariel combos do have a ton of variety and str behind them. Where she lacks in some areas (n-air/missiles/bombs/etc...) she makes up for others (b-air, utilt, fsmash, uair, etc...) not to mention you're able to summon Zero Suit (who happens to be a godly character compared to Samus).... so yeah there are weaknesses in Samus' game. But at the same time the strengths are still there you just have to utilize them more often. Her style in general has changed since melee so it's pretty much a whole new playstyle with Samus now.
Not exactly. She's about right in the middle or so for run speed. ~50% are slower, ~50% are faster. But that's also relative and just deals with running speed- her overall speed, both vertically in the air and horizontally on the ground, are nothing too useful. In fact, her slowness vertically in the air is almost entirely her downfall. But on the ground, at least, you have to consider start-up speed on the dash, and how effective it is doing things out of a dash- her dash attack is also decent, but not like the speed of slow character's dash attacks like Snake or Ganon even have.
Her speed in terms of "attack speed" which we can consider how much starting/ending lag moves have, she's extremely fast, and has a specialty of have 0 lag on landing her aerials.
WastingPenguins
Smash Ace
If true then the problem here isn't that Samus sucks-- the problem is that YOU suck at Brawl.
VirisKnite
Smash Journeyman
So what is this the thread where all these people who don't play Samus come to bash here now? Seriously, the only person who has posted so far that deserves to say anything negative about Samus is Hugs.
And yeah, we all know that Samus has been nerfed. We're the last people on earth who need to be told that Samus has been nerfed. Telling us that she has been nerfed doesn't change anything.
And Gumwas probably exaggerating, although his Samus is awesome and I wouldn't doubt his skills as being upper tier.
(Edit)(^) Yeah Gum already cleared that up, and I posted this before reading the second page, oops.(/Edit)
Oh and G3rain, Uair is hard to hit with because you don't use it enough, and therefore you don't know how to use it. I too at one point was mainly using Fair and hardly any Uair. So I spent some time and worked more Uairs into my game. I also spent some time working on my timing with Zair. Trust me it helps. If you're still having trouble with doing an air dodge instead, just practice SH> AD> Zair.
And yeah, we all know that Samus has been nerfed. We're the last people on earth who need to be told that Samus has been nerfed. Telling us that she has been nerfed doesn't change anything.
And Gum
(Edit)(^) Yeah Gum already cleared that up, and I posted this before reading the second page, oops.(/Edit)
Oh and G3rain, Uair is hard to hit with because you don't use it enough, and therefore you don't know how to use it. I too at one point was mainly using Fair and hardly any Uair. So I spent some time and worked more Uairs into my game. I also spent some time working on my timing with Zair. Trust me it helps. If you're still having trouble with doing an air dodge instead, just practice SH> AD> Zair.
True words spoken from a true master
PitMasta
Smash Journeyman
samus to me seems just a little heavier and harder to KO, but she isn't "Light" or at least to me compared to somebody like toon link
RolandBeoulve
Smash Apprentice
Gum
Smash Journeyman
I really didn't want to have to go back to this point but it feels like, after using her almost exclusively in and out of tournament settings, I am compelled.
People are so focused on COMPARING her to how she was in melee rather than saying "Ok, this is Brawl, completely different game, so let me learn how to adapt."
ZOMG! Power missiles don't KO anymore? Nair doesnt wallop people off the stage? Life as we know it is over! Get a grip people. You know how many stocks you can take off your opponent just by forcing their shield to shield stab status and then destroying their face with a charge shot? Why does this work, because power missiles are great at eating shields (plus they do 10% each which is nice) Be creative. If you really love the character, you would learn the new things that you need to in order to win with that character. Her nair doesn't have the knockback it used to right? Well this isn't melee, so thats not an issue. It is great for stringing hits together and gimping recoveries.
I applaud those who realize this and try hard, and if the results are not satisfactory then Im not sure what to say except to change your frame of mind and go outside of your comfort zone to try some new stuff out. There might be something that you are missing.
In short, if you are a Samus player, dont worry Samus doesn't suck, but you dont want to go using her like you did in melee. If you are NOT a Samus player then it doesn't concern you so don't post crap about a character you don't know about.
People are so focused on COMPARING her to how she was in melee rather than saying "Ok, this is Brawl, completely different game, so let me learn how to adapt."
ZOMG! Power missiles don't KO anymore? Nair doesnt wallop people off the stage? Life as we know it is over! Get a grip people. You know how many stocks you can take off your opponent just by forcing their shield to shield stab status and then destroying their face with a charge shot? Why does this work, because power missiles are great at eating shields (plus they do 10% each which is nice) Be creative. If you really love the character, you would learn the new things that you need to in order to win with that character. Her nair doesn't have the knockback it used to right? Well this isn't melee, so thats not an issue. It is great for stringing hits together and gimping recoveries.
I applaud those who realize this and try hard, and if the results are not satisfactory then Im not sure what to say except to change your frame of mind and go outside of your comfort zone to try some new stuff out. There might be something that you are missing.
In short, if you are a Samus player, dont worry Samus doesn't suck, but you dont want to go using her like you did in melee. If you are NOT a Samus player then it doesn't concern you so don't post crap about a character you don't know about.
HugS
Smash Champion
ll Mafia ll
Smash Apprentice
Lol, irritating.
I just love the way Samus can chain up her aerials and ground game. It makes playing her extremely smooth; the playstyle is perfect form me.
But, she does not suck.
I just love the way Samus can chain up her aerials and ground game. It makes playing her extremely smooth; the playstyle is perfect form me.
But, she does not suck.
Gum
Smash Journeyman
@G3rain1:
Most of my kills come from spikes, and gimps using nair. I get a fair amount of KO's from fsmash out of shield as well. The key is learning how to maneuver off the stage using her bombs and missiles as a way of stunning your opponent to set up for a spike.
@HugS:
Irritating? I havn't made that argument in forever, so how is it "getting" irritating. Also, Im not sure why you believe that only big names from melee are good at Brawl. On the contrary there are a LOT of really good players that people dont know of because they dont strive to become well known. Look at Forte for example. He wasnt well known in melee (though he was really good), but he is amazing in Brawl and wins singles and doubles tourneys in VA all the time. At any rate the last big tourney I was in was at C3 in NoVa this past weekend. "Opponents of serious merit" as you so put it were Azen, Chu, M2K, Neo, Omni, Chineesah, Forte, Toasty, Plank, G-reg, and Tope just to name a few. But make no mistake, just because these guys were the big names doesnt mean everyone else sucked.
@-Slash-:
She is from ****ing space. She was floaty in her games, hence why she is floaty in smash.
Most of my kills come from spikes, and gimps using nair. I get a fair amount of KO's from fsmash out of shield as well. The key is learning how to maneuver off the stage using her bombs and missiles as a way of stunning your opponent to set up for a spike.
@HugS:
Irritating? I havn't made that argument in forever, so how is it "getting" irritating. Also, Im not sure why you believe that only big names from melee are good at Brawl. On the contrary there are a LOT of really good players that people dont know of because they dont strive to become well known. Look at Forte for example. He wasnt well known in melee (though he was really good), but he is amazing in Brawl and wins singles and doubles tourneys in VA all the time. At any rate the last big tourney I was in was at C3 in NoVa this past weekend. "Opponents of serious merit" as you so put it were Azen, Chu, M2K, Neo, Omni, Chineesah, Forte, Toasty, Plank, G-reg, and Tope just to name a few. But make no mistake, just because these guys were the big names doesnt mean everyone else sucked.
@-Slash-:
She is from ****ing space. She was floaty in her games, hence why she is floaty in smash.
AlAxe
Smash Journeyman
Samus isn't horrible, but definitely not great. Like most others here I just haven't been able to get the finisher on people. Those are some good ideas Gum. I haven't really been maining Samus, but I never thought to use bombs as an edgeguard.