• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Snake Video Thread of Manliness

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
NHS 1 GFs: FlashingFire (Marth/Link/Snake) vs JZ (Ivysaur)

Grand Finals of a local tournament. I beat him earlier as Marth, but in GFs he adapted quite a bit. I switch to Snake 12 minutes in.

Also, I've noticed that none of the matches posted recently have been added to the OP. Is there a way to tag KOKingpin or something and let him know that I'd like this to change?
 
Last edited:

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
Thanks @ Raziek Raziek

Btw, I did a match analysis of the set I just posted and one of my friends said I should share it, so here it is. Let me know if you like it/what I can do better, as I'm planning on doing more of these.
 

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
I though that's what this thread is.

...oh wait, you mean you want me to do the in-depth analysis thing?
 

alphabattack

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
117
I meant more like I played some games, and I was hoping to get some feedback. Not anything huge. I just thought this board was for bigger matches at tournaments and such.
 

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
People might me more interested in high-profile matches, but you might still get some feedback if you post here. I haven't gotten any myself in the last few weeks though... You could also try posting to the PM subreddit.
 

Jonny Westside

S4mus Fiend
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
576
Location
CA
NNID
Jonny-Westside
3DS FC
4098-3340-4061
Hey, I have some tournament videos to contribute (finally). My offline tag is Jonny Westside and I recently attended SSS (Super Smash Sundays)

http://www.twitch.tv/iebattlegrounds/b/509665125

Start off at 10:36:44 for my Loser's Semis (Vs K9), then after that it's Loser's Finals (Vs Aero) and lastly Grand Finals. (Vs Okami)
 
Last edited:

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
Got some good games in against a lot of great Texas players. I managed to get both my tournament losses recorded, so I'm hoping to learn a lot from studying the vids myself and letting you guys critique me.

FlashingFire (Snake) vs Disafter (DK, Lucas, Fox)
FlashingFire (Snake, Link) vs UTDZac (Charizard)

Also UHD, I'll have to rewatch some of your sets and give what feedback I can. I was watching that stream live, and it was cool to see another Snake do so well in a region as stacked as SoCal.

Edit: tagging @ KOkingpin KOkingpin to ask again for an update to the OP.
 
Last edited:

Professor Pro

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
10,261
Location
England, South London
So only 4 people have ever taken a set off of my Snake in tournament
Fuzzyness (w/ 2.1 Lucario lol)
Leffen
Armada
and...R23 lol...

I lost a set against a Kirby player in my region since I had no idea how to handle the character lol, luckily I adapted and kinda destroyed him the next set, but I thought since I haven't posted any vids in a while I would post these up.

Professor Pro (Snake) vs R23 (Kirby) - Winners Semis
Professor Pro (Snake) vs R23 (Kirby) - Losers Finals
Professor Pro (Snake) vs Beta (Ike) - Grand Finals
 
Last edited:

KOkingpin

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,622
Location
Murfreesboro, TN
Updated the first post. For some reason im not getting notifications on this page even though I have them turned on. Kinda thought the page died out haha. Anyway I will probably start removing the old stuff so post some 3.02 stuff!
 

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
Awesome! Everything I've posted has been PM 3.0 or later, but if you want you can remove the friendlies I had against 420Blaziken, The_Irish_Dude, and Tinto, since those were non-tournament vids from early 3.0 (and I wasn't that great back then).

[collapse=Suggestion]Also, maybe you could use collapse tags to make the OP look nicer?

For example, this collapse tag was made with [.collapse=Suggestion] text [./collapse] just without the periods.[/collapse]
 
Last edited:

LavaLatte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
65
Any VODs from Rolex's games at SBU yesterday? I heard he had a great set with John Numbers and others =]
 

Sago

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
1,892
Location
Wisconsin's Heart, Chicago
Got a bunch of matchs i figured i would post. I would love some critique on whatever matchs people want to watch. Watch the m2k and frootloop gf(1)

SuburbSmash1-Lisle IL

WinnersR3- Sago(Snake) vs Orly(Falcon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br2xDz5s_24

WinersR4- Sago(Snake) vs SwagTrain(MK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZLWH3ertlY (game1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bzlt3ZBXqk (game2+3)

LosersQuarters- Sago(Snake) vs Trail (Ganon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svaop0C1XU0

LosersSemi's- Sago(Snake) vs Tink(Marth/Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtJFNLdsVVo

WDW- Chicago IL

WinnersR1- Sago(Snake) vs HarryTheChin(Link)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2kIHaM6hfA

WinnersR2- Sago(Snake) vs M2K(Fox/Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bNZIPSGV_A

LosersR?- Sago(Snake) vs Orly(Falcon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZHdU-NJZpQ

IMDB11-Madison WI
Losers Quarters- Sago(Snake) vs Orly(MewTwo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XFxqtfgX5g

Losers Semis- Sago(Snake) vs Goku(Charizard)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VZEpjMkmro

Losers Finals- Sago(Snake) vs Norm(Link/Kirby)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzxKp2MZons

GrandFinals- Sago(Snake) vs Frootloop(Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRRH88AC-LE

GrandFinals(set2)- Sago(Snake) vs Frootloop(Falco) (technically set3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0lZ4k2r7qM
 

Jonny Westside

S4mus Fiend
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
576
Location
CA
NNID
Jonny-Westside
3DS FC
4098-3340-4061
Last edited:

Mr.Random

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
802
Location
Tallahassee Florida
So only 4 people have ever taken a set off of my Snake in tournament
Fuzzyness (w/ 2.1 Lucario lol)
Leffen
Armada
and...R23 lol...

I lost a set against a Kirby player in my region since I had no idea how to handle the character lol, luckily I adapted and kinda destroyed him the next set, but I thought since I haven't posted any vids in a while I would post these up.

Professor Pro (Snake) vs R23 (Kirby) - Winners Semis
Professor Pro (Snake) vs R23 (Kirby) - Losers Finals
Professor Pro (Snake) vs Beta (Ike) - Grand Finals
These are awesome. You have to travel all over the place Pro. You, in my opinion, are easily the most entertaining Snake to watch. Is the crew battle you did on the 7th up here? Sad that you lost to Giga Bowser lol.
 

Professor Pro

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
10,261
Location
England, South London
These are awesome. You have to travel all over the place Pro. You, in my opinion, are easily the most entertaining Snake to watch. Is the crew battle you did on the 7th up here? Sad that you lost to Giga Bowser lol.
Thanks for the compliments, I appreciate it.
As for travelling more, that's very likely to happen. I will be going to SKTAR 3 along with Armada on 31st May/1st June which is in New Jersey so that will be a start :p
That's where the Me vs Rolex $100 MM is going on.

Also I hadn't posted it but this is the crew battle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB51NaxoIdE
I'm STILLL salty he went Giga Bowser lol, I wanted to try and take off as much stock as I could but then he copped out and went Giga Bowser...I pretty much won the crew battle, I think from the Kirby onwards was actually my own team.
Apparently I took off like 30ish stock though but I'm not 100% sure
 

Jonny Westside

S4mus Fiend
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
576
Location
CA
NNID
Jonny-Westside
3DS FC
4098-3340-4061
Everyone in the UK seems to be mediocre at PM except for you, lol. I think any competent snake would've taken just as many stocks. Those guys you fought were horrible >.<
 

Professor Pro

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
10,261
Location
England, South London
Everyone in the UK seems to be mediocre at PM except for you, lol. I think any competent snake would've taken just as many stocks. Those guys you fought were horrible >.<
That's because it was a smashfest of specifically people from South London, not the whole of London, not England, not the UK, literally just South London lol. :p
There are better players in the UK of course, no-one in the room was even top 10 in the UK, except for Jolteon who's like 3rd but just got bodied anyway, but that's because I am considerably better than him :awesome:

I doubt any other Snake would 4 stock or even win against Jolteon though if I'm being honest.
 
Last edited:

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
Everyone in the UK seems to be mediocre at PM except for you, lol. I think any competent snake would've taken just as many stocks. Those guys you fought were horrible >.<
No other Snake would 4 stock me, or even take a set off of me tbh. Anyone is welcome to try, however. :)
 
Last edited:

JulioCoolJazz

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Eugene, OR
Could someone critique my snake? I have 2 matches with a friend. Thanks!
This thread needs some life brought back to it! So I'll start by critiquing your matches like you asked.

For the first one versus Ike: That was pretty good. Your mine placement was pretty predictable (you put it in the same place almost every time) but because it's a small stage and your opponent used Quick Draw a lot it worked for you most of the time. It's a good idea to make sure you have a mine in between you and an Ike so it forces them to approach smarter (ie QD cancel approaches). Once you hit your own mine because you did a dash attack to punish Ike's missed QD cancel grab (which wasn't a very efficient punish and resulted in you eating a few aerials) so I'd recommend doing attacks that don't send you very far on small stages like that. Your F-tilt to jab reset to tranq shot was ON POINT might I add, that pretty much always guaranteed you a free C4 so keep on doing stuff like that to get the C4 on Ike. When you get hit into the air by Ike your DI was good but your recovery back to stage wasn't the best, I recommend dropping a grenade/C4 underneath you to scare him off you and let you back on the ground. If your opponent has C4 stuck on them already in some cases where another aerial can KO you, then just detonate it to get them off your back.

For the second one versus Lucas: This one wasn't as solid and clearly your opponent was more well-equipped to face your Snake. Granted the match-up is a little tougher because Lucas can get on a character like Snake and juggle him a lot, you had pretty good survival DI but not great combo DI (You didn't DI Lucas' down throw in one part which resulted in an Up-smash KO) so I'd say work on that a little. In this game you had more room to work with on PS2 and it seemed you were punished a lot more in this one for something I noticed you do a lot: just throwing out attacks without much thought as to if they're going to hit your opponent or not. Even with your consistent L-cancelling just the one time you missed an L-cancel or shot a tranq for no reason you were punished and juggled accordingly. Your Up-B OoS would sometimes work very well to get out of pressure and other times you did it when your opponent was nowhere near you, and if he was not in the right place your falling aerial would whiff and then get punished. Lucas excels in the air so I'd say stay on the ground some more, with Snake's crawl you can avoid his side-B from a distance and if you Dash Dance/Crouch-Cancel more then you can go for either an up-throw chain into a C4 stick or a down-throw to tech chase tranq and C4 stick. These strategies work better when both you and your opponent are at low percents, because you often got traded with unfavorably when you did aerials on Lucas at low percents.

The good: Up-B OoS got you out of pressure well, you were generally mindful of your mine placement and used it well with side throws to get damage/KOs and you survived to high percents in most of your stocks with good survival DI. Also great jab reset to tranq bread and butter combos.

What needs improvement: Using movement that keeps your options open (wavedashing, wavelanding, dash dancing) without throwing out attacks so much, shield-drop grenades to punish shield pressure, C4/grenade dropping to ensure safe recovery.
 

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
These are probably some of my best Snake matches yet:

DIOD 8 Winner's Semis - vs Bones (Mewtwo)
DIOD 8 Winner's Finals - vs Strong Bad (Wario)
DIOD 8 Loser's Finals - vs RunDMX (Kirby, Meta Knight, Wolf)
DIOD 8 Grand Finals - vs Strong Bad (Wario)

if you only watch one set, watch Winner's Semis or Grand Finals.

Also, some doubles matches where I team up with Strong Bad. Quite a few of them feature the hilarious double Snake team.

(Doubles) DIOD 8 Winner's Quarters
(Doubles) DIOD 8 Winner's Semis
(Doubles) DIOD 8 Winner's Finals
(Doubles) DIOD 8 Grand Finals

Game 3 of GFs was awesome - I played as Roy, but it's still worth watching.

EDIT: Linked doubles GFs to the correct video.
 
Last edited:

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Tentative revival of the thread (since there haven't been any 3.5 videos). I managed to get a few Wi-fi safe matches with my roommate before I left for home, but unfortunately halfway through the session gameplay devolved into disrespectful sandbagging, all but one of the replays ended up desynced, and my computer lagged while recording occurred. They definitely worked on the Wii used, and I'm trying to fix them, but here are the ones with anything interesting happening in them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r12ViTV9zHs&index=1&list=PLQya8P0RNDDdU-JSvQC41QAPjWWI91qdf.

With that being said, I wouldn't have recorded the first match if it weren't for a minor event at 0:20, where Snake's up throw was teched. Originally I thought it was really weird SDI combined with the fact that the players were at the edge when it happened, but after a bit of testing it doesn't seem that you can really SDI throws at all. In fact, I couldn't even get the right DI and tech timing for it to happen, even at the edge. Does anyone else know how/why this happened? (My computer broke shortly after recording the replays, so I can't do any extra testing at the moment)

Also, the following set of doubles matches was posted elsewhere but I thought I might as well put it here too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGqi5KKp8I, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRMTUomI-JU
 
Last edited:

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
I got a set vs a Sonic this much if anyone can criticize the match (I messed up some tech skill btw idk if its lag or not) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmAEasNtARA
Not sure if you can be blamed for all of the things that you were actually doing wrong (since nobody likes delay, especially in a fast game like PM; I played a somewhat slower, more decision-based fighting game before I came here, and everybody worth their salt (no pun intended) refused to play in anything about 5 delay), so I'll just comment on things that were blatantly wrong.
Critiques:
1. After every successful tranq, there was no sticky attempt, just a SH fair that may or may not have been spaced so that the heel hit. The spacing isn't a big issue, because of the delay, but the lack of capitalization is something that you definitely need to work on. The usual followup after a tranq is a sticky if you're having trouble getting them -> grab, or if they're already stuck a utilt (or grab/uair, if you're feeling confident). The reason the better players (I.E. Prof, Rolex) use forward air is because at higher levels (or rather, higher levels of matchup familiarity), button mashing becomes serious. I used to get easy C4 -> grabs after a tranq close to 0; now ~50's the bare minimum for a C4 -> grab attempt unless I tranq point blank or I'm being really sneaky about the tranq. Moreover, said better players only fair when their opponent's at kill percentages, which I don't think you're doing.
(I'm still not sure why some of the better players fair for the kill even if their opponent's stuck: grab has several frames of advantage over fair, given that grabs beat out frame 1 shields and even has grab armor, Snake has better ground speed than air speed, and if you can get a star KO then you have more time to reload. Maybe it's just for style points.)
tl;dr Grabs are your friend, and Snake has several autopilot combos, especially on those unfamiliar with the matchup.

2. Your C4 usage was lacking. Jumping around and dropping them is a valid strategy (I personally don't like it), but not if spammed. Most above-average players will be focused on the opposing character, not their own, and jumping around and playing Wreck-it Ralph isn't how you're supposed to go about playing Snake. It's sort of like spamming Pikachu Thunder, except worse since it takes longer.
If you can't stick your opponents, try placing them strategically. They shouldn't be your main method of attack.

To be honest, I can't really comment on much more than that. Most Snakes ask for critique regarding the comboing or approach department, and you weren't really doing either of those: punishes were limited to a single fair, and you were mostly camping around in the air, and hoping your opponent wouldn't jump up (or sometimes covering your descent with a grenade).

(Speaking of which, another comment: your Snake seemed to be a bit slower and unsure compared to most other Snakes, but your B-reversals were relatively precise. Just remember though that B-reversing is mostly supposed to be a mixup regarding your landing position after a juggle, not movement in general. Style points are good, but if you're missing out on important aspects of gameplay that's bad.)

If you need help on comboing/stringing/punishing in general, watch higher leveled matches. If you're the reader-type, try reading some posts on the forum: cisyphus and I had a pretty extended conversation on Ftilt in the "Easy Combos" thread, and I think there are more tidbits of other information shoved in there too. Alternatively, experiment (thought experiments are fine too, if you can properly imagine Project M's physics) on your own: I think that's what the vast majority of us did, so it shouldn't be all that hard.

If you need help with approach, I can't really help you there (since my approach game's abysmal too), but learning your "fundamentals" may help (quotations since I'm still not 100% sure what this encompasses, though learning to space, playing "patiently", and basic tech skill are apparently part of it). Some advanced tech like DACUS might help too. Worst case scenario, if you can get your combos down, you only need a few grabs to make a game.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,217
Location
20XX/Midwest
NNID
Snake_Midwest
3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
Not sure if you can be blamed for all of the things that you were actually doing wrong (since nobody likes delay, especially in a fast game like PM; I played a somewhat slower, more decision-based fighting game before I came here, and everybody worth their salt (no pun intended) refused to play in anything about 5 delay), so I'll just comment on things that were blatantly wrong.
Critiques:
1. After every successful tranq, there was no sticky attempt, just a SH fair that may or may not have been spaced so that the heel hit. The spacing isn't a big issue, because of the delay, but the lack of capitalization is something that you definitely need to work on. The usual followup after a tranq is a sticky if you're having trouble getting them -> grab, or if they're already stuck a utilt (or grab/uair, if you're feeling confident). The reason the better players (I.E. Prof, Rolex) use forward air is because at higher levels (or rather, higher levels of matchup familiarity), button mashing becomes serious. I used to get easy C4 -> grabs after a tranq close to 0; now ~50's the bare minimum for a C4 -> grab attempt unless I tranq point blank or I'm being really sneaky about the tranq. Moreover, said better players only fair when their opponent's at kill percentages, which I don't think you're doing.
(I'm still not sure why some of the better players fair for the kill even if their opponent's stuck: grab has several frames of advantage over fair, given that grabs beat out frame 1 shields and even has grab armor, Snake has better ground speed than air speed, and if you can get a star KO then you have more time to reload. Maybe it's just for style points.)
tl;dr Grabs are your friend, and Snake has several autopilot combos, especially on those unfamiliar with the matchup.

2. Your C4 usage was lacking. Jumping around and dropping them is a valid strategy (I personally don't like it), but not if spammed. Most above-average players will be focused on the opposing character, not their own, and jumping around and playing Wreck-it Ralph isn't how you're supposed to go about playing Snake. It's sort of like spamming Pikachu Thunder, except worse since it takes longer.
If you can't stick your opponents, try placing them strategically. They shouldn't be your main method of attack.

To be honest, I can't really comment on much more than that. Most Snakes ask for critique regarding the comboing or approach department, and you weren't really doing either of those: punishes were limited to a single fair, and you were mostly camping around in the air, and hoping your opponent wouldn't jump up (or sometimes covering your descent with a grenade).

(Speaking of which, another comment: your Snake seemed to be a bit slower and unsure compared to most other Snakes, but your B-reversals were relatively precise. Just remember though that B-reversing is mostly supposed to be a mixup regarding your landing position after a juggle, not movement in general. Style points are good, but if you're missing out on important aspects of gameplay that's bad.)

If you need help on comboing/stringing/punishing in general, watch higher leveled matches. If you're the reader-type, try reading some posts on the forum: cisyphus and I had a pretty extended conversation on Ftilt in the "Easy Combos" thread, and I think there are more tidbits of other information shoved in there too. Alternatively, experiment (thought experiments are fine too, if you can properly imagine Project M's physics) on your own: I think that's what the vast majority of us did, so it shouldn't be all that hard.

If you need help with approach, I can't really help you there (since my approach game's abysmal too), but learning your "fundamentals" may help (quotations since I'm still not 100% sure what this encompasses, though learning to space, playing "patiently", and basic tech skill are apparently part of it). Some advanced tech like DACUS might help too. Worst case scenario, if you can get your combos down, you only need a few grabs to make a game.
I just use the C4 like that for the Sonic MU because it just seems a little easier that way against other characters like Falcon you will see that way more from me
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
So I play Solharath quite a lot and have been making significant headway against him in the Snake vs. Sonic matchup, so I feel like I can help a lot here:

1. The stage pick is somewhat solid: a small stage limits the high mobility of Sonic, and the single platform takes away some of his combo game.

2. You need to think about what environment Sonic thrives in and try to limit that environment: that is to say, use a lot more down smash. It limits Sonic's movement options even further and forces him into the air more often (which is where Snake wants him) or it forces him to roll and air dodge to detonate mines (which Snake can punish).

3. The tranq punish at 0:40 was severely lacking. First, Sonic is directly in front of you, so the C4 stick is absolutely free. Second the grab lacked pummels, which are invaluable for racking up quick damage. Third, you actually can lead into grab with single hit dair for another free 4% (but that's a bit cheeky). Fourth, I think at that percent, u-tilt -> c4 actually has a strong chance of KOing Sonic outright (that can also be led into with single hit dair or nair). If not, a single down throw tech chase into regrab will lead to a KO with u-throw -> c4 (with pummels for cushion). Fifth, your grab clearly meant to throw sonic into your mine above; the problem with that is that it was so telegraphed and obvious that your opponent easily DI'd to avoid it (it wouldn't have KO'd anyway). A Tranq hit confirm should lead into a kill at that percent, easily. At the very least, you could've gotten a good edgeguard situation out of it.

4. Learn to DI Sonic's attacks. The DI on Sonic's throw at 0:49 looks just wretched. You're lucky he didn't follow up on it at all. That could've easily been a fair spike (potentially into your mine).

5. The second tranq hit confirm was fantastic because he was at a percent where fair would've easily KO'd. Good on ya there.

6. Why did you Cypher during Sonic's invincibility? Keep your options open in those circumstances, otherwise you're liable to get comboed to death. You might've also wanted to refill tranq, considering you used two on the previous stock.

7. 1:10 is the second time I've seen you randomly fair. It's really questionable given the long cooldown of fair. Act wisely in the air.

8. That super high recovery at 1:15 was really nerve-racking for me as well. Sonic has really good vertical mobility and great moves to abuse that fact (namely, u-air and fair). Don't be above Sonic. You didn't get punished for it, which gives me the idea that this Sonic doesn't exactly know his character's tools that well.

9. The grenade you dropped afterward was a good thing, even better that your opponent blundered into it and missed the tech. But you didn't capitalize on that: the second you saw him jump, you should've been considering a tech chase scenario. I would've dair'd there to jab reset the no tech and still be able to follow most tech options. You also could've just wavedashed in and responded the reaction. Instead you whiff the bair and the grab and Sonic gets away. Then you spotdodge and grab again, neither of which makes any sense.

10. 1:34 sees you hitting yourself with a grenade again, which means you need to practice your grenade cooking more so that you're familiar with the timing.

11. The second tranq of the game also goes uncapitalized, but this one is less your fault: Sonic is relatively low percent and a follow-up is tough. Personally, I wouldn't have even tranq'd here, but a clean DACUS probably would've hit sonic and allowed for a u-air string or an opportunity to set up a downsmash and establish stage control. You're also out of shots here.

12. 1:42 was a really nice idea, you just got outread. Good show. Remember how you were out of shots? No, you forgot! and you die for it.

13. Then waste two more on your invincibility! Set up your stage control!!

14. Shieldgrab needs to be done sparingly: it only works when your opponent attacks your shield unsafely. Sonic spaced his fair really well, and while I don't know the frame data, it's clear that this instance is one where it's unpunishable.

15. The third tranq of the game leaves a lot to be desired. It was also a hard read (which paid off this time) that I would avoid repeating: had the sonic rolled inward, they'd have rolled through the tranq with invincibility and been able to punish your cooldown. Your punish also could've been better as they're again at the percent of the first tranq hit. They're a bit further away but you still could've gotten a lot better than a soft hit fair.

16. Your "edgeguard" is really lack luster as well. The mine is really far into the stage, and then you fail to put yourself in a position to punish Sonic's recovery option. Sonic has only a few options now:
a. Spring jump, which fair and bair are really good about punishing
b. Spring jump into dair, which the mine tends to cover pretty well, so I would assume he'd be afraid of doing that.
c. Sweet spot the ledge, in which case you just grab ledge and force something else, typically something laggy or poorly spaced to force them into your mine and launch them.
d. Homing attack. This isn't nearly as common now due to the 3.5 nerf, but if you just air dodge, Sonic goes into special fall and dies.
You also don't have Sonic stuck here, which means you can use your C4 to cover even more space. It's tough to do on reaction, but it's something you can definitely get into the habit of doing.

17. The u-throw -> mine gimmick from before worked. Examine what was different about the two circumstances and take note of it. I'd attribue this one's success to just one thing: it's lower on the platform than before and any DI was bad DI because of it, although it looks like he failed to DI it based on the angle the u-throw sent vs. the angle the mine sent. You got kinda lucky there.

18. The back-throw to fair gimp doesn't work very well at low percents, and even then, it's better to run off double jump rising fair instead. It allows you to wait out your opponent's jump and then catch them, which has the benefits of better accuracy and better change of KOing because they can't use their DJ any more. Snake's recovery is really high, so you should be able to make it back from any attempt: just be wary of when your opponent baits you into going super low—some characters are better at recovering than Snake.

19. Your use of C4 is actually rather frustrating. It started out okay, but your opponent quickly caught on to the gimmick and got around it. The c4 detonation is pretty slow and is definitely prone to reaction because of it. Something as simple as a roll or spotdodge will avoid it, let alone Sonic's long foxtrot.

20. You ran out of tranqs again because you wasted so many before. Realize the fault of this going far beyond that fully charged f-smash.

21. You're relying too heavily on shield grenade now as well. Sonic is just waiting out the explosion and then hitting you during the shield stun: he gets you multiple times by doing this and eventually combos you into a fair spike off of it.

22. A fourth tranq (if you remember, I said each tranq shot should result in a KO, so you should've already won at this point) and you jump into your own mine! Again, bad time to tranq, and DACUS is far better. Come to think of it, I haven't seen you DACUS once. Learn to DACUS pls. It's super good.

23. A FIFTH TRANQ. It trades with down smash and you get sent off stage. The benefit here is that they can't edgeguard, but you pull a grenade anyway (an anti-edgeguard tactic) at very close range (it won't cook long enough to be of use here) which then puts you into an edgeguard situation where Sonic is actually awake to edgeguard you. He goes for a super risky fair when he could've just punished your on stage Cypher (bad idea, just sweetspot) and still hits you with it because of that one bad grenade.

24. A sixth tranq, and his DI was good, but your fair was also really bad which made it seem like no big deal really. Get the tipper fair spacing down: it KOs ~30% earlier.

25. You wavebounce cypher by accident here, which shows you're fidgeting a bit on your controller. Calm down, take things slow, and focus a bit more. This leads to a really rough edgeguarding situation where you manage to C4 damage boost a lot (kudos). Be more aware of your options: the first one was entirely too high (you get fair'd for it). The second one was perfect—but all you needed to do with walltech into turnaround cypher and grab ledge. You also hardthrow a grenade when you really needed to normal throw it. work on that. You do eventually land back on stage with cypher (eeeeeeeh) and then sit in your shield and let Sonic pressure you back off stage and into a fair KO. In that situation, you should've been prepared to hit confirm off of Cypher instead of sitting in your shield. A u-tilt would've covered Sonic's descent, as well as Cypher OOS to unite the two options together some.

26. I'll point it out again: DI SONIC'S THROWS. I was positive a fair spike was gonna come out after that bad DI at 4:38.

General takeaways:
1. Learn your tranq setups better. This means both hitting and comboing. Catching opponents with it in neutral only works once (typically). Use it in tech chases and to catch laggy moves; that's it. When you DO get the tranq, capitalize on it the best that you can. Your priorities ought to be:
A. C4 stick
B. Launch for u-air juggle and/or C4 KO, whether it be u-throw, u-tilt, d-tilt, or DACUS
C. Set up for an edgeguard (via tipper fair)
D. Set up for a tech chase (via downthrow)
DON'T let them return to neutral without a cool 50%+
2. Utilize C4 sticks. Sonic didn't get stuck once this game. Sonic dies really easily to C4 (he dies the eleventh earliest based on my findings). You do this by forcing Sonic into situations where he's predictable: when he's sitting in shield afraid of a followup, when he's asleep due to tranq, when he's flying out of a u-throw, when they're using ledge invincibility to destroy your mines, et. al.
3. Tighten up your recovery. Snake is a one trick pony in this regard: even with all the damage boost options, he has to Cypher eventually, and Cypher is punishable in all situations, but it's least punishable when you sweetspot. My visual aid is to press down just as the machine peaks above the stage: Snake's grab box was actually raised slightly in 3.5, so it's far safer to sweetspot now.
4. Tighten up your edgeguards. Sonic isn't an easy character to edgeguard, but he shouldn't be getting a free pass on stage either. You've gotta set up situations where you'll know how Sonic will get on stage and then put yourself in prime position to punish that option. This is done by controlling their movement with mines and C4.
5. Learn your combos. Snake can combo the piss out of nearly every character. Sonic is rather floaty, so ease up on your fairs and start using nair, dair, and the weak hits of bair and u-air. Grab a lot more and capitalize off of them. Snake's grabs are amazing combo starters.
6 Learn to DACUS. Learn to DACUS. Learn to DACUS. Learn to DACUS. Learn to DACUS. Learn to DACUS.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Now I have recordings of games vs. a Marth and vs. a Sheik/Zelda, but the twitch channel's taken the highlights down for now. Hopefully they'll get uploaded soon so that I can post them up and get some feedback, 'cause these dudes knock me into loser's pretty consistently.
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Finally got some of the replays I recorded earlier working; something tells me the problem was that I didn't put the BGMs into the ISO builder, given that Yoshi's Story, which I didn't modify BGM for, worked perfectly. I also reduced the video quality so that my potato computer could record without stuttering. Updated playlist can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQya8P0RNDDdU-JSvQC41QAPjWWI91qdf.

Comments in general are welcome; of particular note, can feedback be given on match 6 (newly salvaged replay)? My Snake's absolutely terrible vs. Sheik (to the point where I usually counterpick my Falcon vs. Sheiks in tourney, which only goes marginally better). Also somewhat alarmed by the fact(s) that 1. Castlevania (which is often banned, even during friendlies) is my favorite stage for obvious reasons as seen in the video, so I probably would have lost on most other stages, and 2. the Sheik in the video's a day 1 Sheik.
 
Last edited:

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Just based on this Marth video:
1. Stop going to ledge. Your roommate is dropping edgeguards like mad. Good Marths don't.
2. Tighten up your movement. There's a lot of moments where you simply
3. The C4 Recovery doesn't work at low percents...
4. However, you only ended up there because you overextended. Be mindful.

Vs. Sheik:
1. You end up on ledge again due to questionable grenade use.
2. That first grab on Sheik could've led to a regrab. If you have trouble on the neutral DI, dash quickly forward and then pivot grab. I started doing it one day and was amazed how much easier the regrabs got. This goes for every chaingrab's early percents. Naturally that regrab can link into another, and then you should be able to get a C4 after that, or just regrab if they DI away. Keep at it until they're too high to regrab, but low enough to C4. Use the U-Throw guide as a way to see the height limits of the grabs (pay attention to how high a character goes at a given percent. And it goes without saying that the full hop was out of place, although that is either due to lack of character knowledge (Sheik gets hit by SH dair but not quite FH dair) or a flubbed input.
3. There's a second grab at 0:22 that leads into nothing. At 48%, you can definitely get a C4 or an up air. C4 is obviously preferred, but Up Air is a great choice as well considering Sheik's generally bad time being above opponents. You could certainly string a couple aerials together into either an edgeguard (which is easy vs. Sheik) or a platform techchase (which nets you a C4 or AI regrab fairly easily).
4. The crawl to avoid the needles is good awareness: this Sheik's worked to keep you at arm's length primarily through her projectile, and you've circumvented that. However, your early trigger on the crawl tilt made it clear that they shouldn't approach, so they didn't.
5. Be wary of your hitstun durations. Sheik's aerials are monstrous, and her mobility is great horizontally while grounded, combined with a fast (3 frame jumpsquat) and high jump, so Sheik can easily follow up on most launching moves. I say this because you double jump right into a FAir at 0:58, which should've meant death. The second I saw you go high with Cypher, I, as a Sheik player, would've UAir'd or FAir'd and you'd be in a tough spot. Sometimes It's better to just eat that hit and do a tricky recovery than to try to escape. Even if the DJ had worked, Sheik's aerials are so strong and her punishes for landing are so good, your stage positioning would've still ended badly.
6. Stop FAiring so much. The grenade conversion at 1:42 was a huge opportunity. A clean UAir hit would've launched Sheik (who is C4'd) and the current platform arrangement would've given you plenty of room to launcher her again, at which point the C4 would've KO'd easily. The same problem occurs at 2:00 where you fair instead of UAir (which would've KO'd). You're not capitalizing on your C4 sticks, which is a huge problem, especially with a character as light as Sheik. You also use it in the neutral a lot, which is plainly a bad idea given its long startup and lengthy landing lag. Replace hese with NAir, or even empty hops into grab/c4/f-tilt/u-tilt...
7. You try to utilize the C4 recovery again, but for some reason you go way further out than is recommended. I take it you aren't comfortable with wall techs, but they're really pretty easy: you have a 20 frame input window, after all. It seems like that's the case though, based on 3:17. Had the Sheik prepared properly for this, you would've gotten FAir KO'd in your hitstun. No beuno. Go into training mode, plug in a second controller, and set your damage to like 100% and practice the wall techs. Start on Green Hill Zone or Fountain of Dreams, since they have really big targets. Once you're comfortable there, up the ante with Final Destination. After that, Pokemon Stadium 2, Battlefield, and Dreamland. Then do Smashville, Lylat and Skyworld. It takes some hard work, but it's really useful in the end. Make sure that you're getting safely to stage again (having a training partner to edgeguard for this would help a lot).
8. This isn't really a critique of your gameplay, but rather a conceptual aside: at 4:28 you pulled a grenade and shielded it, and it looks like you shield DI to the right. That's interesting in that you can theoretically shift your hurtbox while shielding to make your opponent's spacing incorrect and thereby get a punish. Interesting stuff worth looking into.
9. Another aside: Snake's low crouch might actually provide the means to dodge some of Sheik's aerials. Like at 4:45 when Sheik NAirs OOS, I can't help but feel like crouching there would've let you survive based on the sex kick decay as well as the crouch cancel. Moreover, had Sheik Fair'd, it could very well have missed. I also know Sheiks to like full hop aerials when they're expecting SHFFLs as a means of preemptively stuffing approach options, so this surely could come in handy as well (since I think NAir Autocancels out of a full hop and fair definitely does).
 
Last edited:

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Obligatory response comments:
* Might be a placebo effect and/or how I use the shield buttons, but on the Wifi safe version of PM, I feel that grenade trickery (even wavedashing onto grenades, as shown in this example, not to mention IGTing) seems to be harder in general.

Marth (#1):
1a. Aside from the improvised grenade pickup failure coverup at the start of the match and maybe the failed edgeguard if that counts, I don't think I went to the ledge voluntarily...?
1b. What would constitute an edgeguard? As in, is an edgeguard making sure they stay off the main platform, or making sure they stay off the stage altogether?
(Just curious, because fsmash and up smash sandbagging aside, I didn't see many dropped edgeguards of the second kind: he couldn't have done much at 1:23 (though the lack of followup on the fthrow was questionable), and I don't think he got any other opportunities)
2. ?
*. Any ideas as to how to deal with ledge camping Marths? Probably my fault since his ledgecamping originated from aggressive sticky attempts off of platform, though it'd be nice to know how to deal with this in the first place. Only two successful anti-ledgecamp efforts that I remember were 1. the one featured in game 5, which was from dumb luck, and 2. the occasional crouch-cancel sticky, which also happen because of dumb luck.

Sheik replay (#6):
2. It feels like regrabs on Sheiks in actual gameplay, especially at such low percents, border on hard reads. The followup was supposed to be a 3-hit shorthop down air; not sure how I missed the shorthop out of all things.
3. No idea what happened there, TBH; I think what happened was, the last time I checked Sheik's percentage was before the forward air, which put her out of chaingrab range, which I proceeded to go for (since I knew at the time that she's chaingrabbable between 20 and 40)
6. After a bit of negative conditioning from either getting punished after missed uairs or flubbing uairs (or rather, now that I think of it, forgetting that Snake isn't actually Falcon and has a terrible maximum air speed), I've become somewhat lazy and started opting for forward airs and cyphers when possible instead. You're right, though; should probably replace it.
7. The reverse Cypher at 2:50ish was to screw up the spacing for a ledgehop backair or edgeguard attempts of that sort. I'm generally fine with walltechs, but as of 3.5 recovering from below's gotten me paranoid given I still haven't adjusted to Cypher's shortened duration, and I'd already gotten pelted with needles twice. In retrospect that probably wouldn't have done too much to how far Cypher would go up, but I know that at the time it felt like I'd been offstage forever.
(Fortunately, I'm guessing my roommate didn't actually expect the non-tech wallride C4, which worked out in the end.)
8. Definitely not intentional shield DI, but I probably would have IGTed if I could.
9. I think that if more people knew that Ftilt was -17 on block and noted my ftilting habits, realistically I'd still be in lag when the nair happened. Crouching cancelling in that particular example (if I thought of it at the time) definitely would have helped, but realistically shielding would have been better, given that both types of defense start on frame 1.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback. Also, some really minor notes (for both my own reference and whoever happens to read this) on Snake's crouch:
1. Apparently crouch cancel armor starts on frame 1 from a neutral position.
2. Visual testing shows that it reaches dtilt level on frame 5, and progresses into a full crouch at frame 8.
3. Snake's hurtbox during crawl attack is roughly the same as just a standard crouch, but does not have crouch cancel armor. Crawling, too, does not have crouch cancel armor (Was really surprised at 4:05). The same applies for dtilt too, obviously.

EDIT: NOTES 4-6 REDACTED. (dat forbidden knowledge)
 
Last edited:

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Edgeguard as in not letting you back on stage, which includes getting off of the ledge. He really did drop a lot of them, coming from someone that spent three hours grinding this matchup yesterday.

As for dealing with ledge stalling Marth, I mean, just wait really. He only gets five ledge grabs until his invincibility runs out, so if he's C4'd, just detonate it in a timely manner and you might get lucky and stage spike. At the very least you can get a solid bair or uair. If he's not C4'd, plant one safely and use the same logic. If it's placed well, it'll hit even if he's on ledge. Marths like to ledge camp because of their range, but Snake has projectiles and doesn't necessarily need to approach. Light shield would make this a lot easier, of course, but meh. You could probably actually dash -> WD -> Smash Turn -> WD / dash -> turnaround -> WD as well to steal ledge from him, but that's risky/read-dependent.

Regrabbing sheik is definitely not a hard read, lol. It's guaranteed and relatively easy to do. Work on your chain grabs. I played Sheik in Melee and spent a hell of a lot of time grinding them out for the guide, so I've had lots of practice wih that kinda thing. Chain grabs and tech chasing are my strong suit, but I'm far from proficient, so it's not unrealistic expectations, either. If anything, the ~30% regrab on spacies is a hard read, but those aren't that tough either.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom