Snake Video Thread of Manliness

[yink059]

hey guys in the near future (next few weeks at the most) ill be playing PM more on my stream. this is mostly for vods of myself for analysis but feel free to czech it out. i dont advertise or actively try to get new followers so its never that big. im doing netplay while i figure out my capture card situation.

www.twitch.tv/yink059

 

[yink059]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka890Ds5svo

this is my first serious match in a while.
some things i knew i was doing wrong:
i jab-locked myself a few times on accident.
some missed inputs (tranq instead of cipher, going for grabs that wouldnt hit).
since it was my first tourney match in like a month i got antsy once i got a combo going.
stopped using dash dancing under pressure?
i also accidentally did not sweet spot my cipher a few times
but i feel that in general im doing alot better than i did when i came here like 5 months ago

 

[LupinX]

I seen that you love to cypher a lot lol. Try to not use it too much, for if you get caught in the air you may not be able to recover. I suggest using more grenades to zone out Ganon with some wavedancing mixups to bait out a move. I also try mixing up your b-reverses, turnarounds and wave bounces.

And I hear you can jab reset from cypher. How close do you need to be to implement this?

 

[BND]

Hrrm; the gameplay actually doesn't look too bad from a tech-related standpoint: you seem to be pretty good at Cypher -> C4, though that might be chalked up to your opponent's bad DI (I don't think I saw any raw sticks, but it's easy enough to combo into a stick vs. Ganon so no complaints there) and you seem to be able to walltech well enough. There are a couple of things I'd like to note about your playstyle though:
1. This is just my opinion, but Cypher's not necessarily the best followup to everything--I saw that, for most up throws vs. Ganon, you opted for a Cypher -> C4 instead of a regrab into potentially Cypher -> C4, which would have been possible given your opponent's somewhat lackluster DI.
Basically, IMO, Cypher has 2 optimal uses regarding offense:
A) Random vertical combo extender to confirm into a C4 kill
B) Comboing into C4
You did well on the second one and weren't given the opportunity to do the first, but other than that, Cypher doesn't have much going for it. Try implementing other moves.

2. Convert better off of your down airs vs. a grounded opponent--No matter how you time the down air, it should be at the very least +3 on hit if you L-cancel it, and up to something like +20 with optimal timing and/or possibly percents. That being said, down air links well into ftilt, utilt, or grab if your opponent doesn't buffer a roll. If in doubt as to where your opponent will land, comboing into another dair works too, though you'll need to be fast on that.

3. If you're planning on dthrow tech chasing Ganon, crouching after the dthrow ducks under his getup attack, and you can act out of it faster than preemptively shielding.

There are other things that I'd comment on, but a lot of said things are acceptable crutches.

...Also, not sure what you've been saying to the commentators, but I don't think you can jab reset with Cypher. Admittedly, commentators don't necessarily relay information accurately, though I just thought I'd let you know.

 

[yink059]

And I hear you can jab reset from cypher. How close do you need to be to implement this?

hes just a little misinformed on this what i meant by this. just like a run up cipher -> stick and get them in the air kind of deal.

 

[yink059]

...Also, not sure what you've been saying to the commentators, but I don't think you can jab reset with Cypher. Admittedly, commentators don't necessarily relay information accurately, though I just thought I'd let you know.

yaaa just ignore that, he was writing an essay while i was just messing around. i just meant punishing a missed tech

3. If you're planning on dthrow tech chasing Ganon, crouching after the dthrow ducks under his getup attack, and you can act out of it faster than preemptively shielding.

ya i did that once, i used to playing friendlies with people who are harder to down throw tech chase so im not used to down throwing as much, should probably do that more.

Cypher doesn't have much going for it. Try implementing other moves.

maybe it was just some bracket pressure and also that ive lost to him in the past, but it was working in the match for the most part (as far as i could tell in the moment) so i just kept on doing it.

 

[cisyphus]

Cypher is actually way more useful than BND claims: its electricity property means hitstun is 1.5x greater than normal, meaning you can follow up on it a lot better, which is awesome 'cause you can cancel it into any aerial immediately after hitlag! Off the top of my head, I know that Cypher into Fair can true combo at certain percents dependent on character—I say that because fair is super slow and it demonstrates just how much frame advantage Cypher gives you, lol. It's basically a poor man's shine. Cypher can also be used to give hitboxes to your SHFFL aerials on startup at the cost of 1 frame later for the actual aerial to come out. You can use Cypher to combo into nair, and if you hit confirm on the nair, you can land the second hit a frame or two before landing and have enough hit advantage to get a regrab that way too. Cypher into C4 is a good habit to get into, but you can definitely get a lot more off of it, too. I don't know if this is why BND means by "random vertical combo extender" but you can also chase someone (preferably a low air mobility character like Samus—check this thread) and hit confirm the cypher cancel hitbox (where the gizmo floats up) into a uair or back air. You can also Short Hop Cypher Cancel Aerial Interrupt on platforms to create advantage on opponents above you. More info for that here.

I'll take a look at the videos now and edit in some observations

 

[yink059]

Cypher is actually way more useful than BND claims: its electricity property means hitstun is 1.5x greater than normal, meaning you can follow up on it a lot better, which is awesome 'cause you can cancel it into any aerial immediately after hitlag! Off the top of my head, I know that Cypher into Fair can true combo at certain percents dependent on character—I say that because fair is super slow and it demonstrates just how much frame advantage Cypher gives you, lol. It's basically a poor man's shine. Cypher can also be used to give hitboxes to your SHFFL aerials on startup at the cost of 1 frame later for the actual aerial to come out. You can use Cypher to combo into nair, and if you hit confirm on the nair, you can land the second hit a frame or two before landing and have enough hit advantage to get a regrab that way too. Cypher into C4 is a good habit to get into, but you can definitely get a lot more off of it, too. I don't know if this is why BND means by "random vertical combo extender" but you can also chase someone (preferably a low air mobility character like Samus—check this thread) and hit confirm the cypher cancel hitbox (where the gizmo floats up) into a uair or back air. You can also Short Hop Cypher Cancel Aerial Interrupt on platforms to create advantage on opponents above you. More info for that here.

I'll take a look at the videos now and edit in some observations

ya i started to cipher->c4 like 3 days ago (actually going for it) and will start practicing conversions off of it. ya and i use the canceled cipher hitbox to deny any approaches from right above me and follow up accordingly.

 

[cisyphus]

Be wary of rolling away from Grenades. It's actually a really bad habit and one that I'm guilty of myself. Snake's roll has a fair amount of vulnerability on it, and you rolled right into the Ganon's back air and lost your first stock for it. If anything, wavedash out of shield to pick it up and mix up your opponent's spacing. You can even spotdodge the explosion if you're familiar enough.

Okay so at 0:50 you have Ganondorf off stage. What's the ganon gonna do? he's gonna try to get back. You set a mine, awesome: Ganon's at roughly KO%, and the mine will at worst force him into a bad stage position (above Snake). HOWEVER, you run into stage after placing the mine: not awesome. It's not bad, but it's not as limiting to the Ganon as it could be. You see that he went to ledge immediately after you placed the mine—so why not wavedash to ledge? The advantage he gets from grabbing ledge is the invincibility to go through the mine safely. Take that advantage away by taking ledge. Simple as that! However, you can still salvage that situation by predicting his method of dealing with the mine: he needs to maintain invincibility somehow to get back on stage, so there's a few options:

1. Standard ledge getups, including stand, roll, and ledge attack. He is over 100% so all of these options are going to be extremely slow and easy to react to. Position yourself to react to them!
2. Ledge jump. This is actually a ridiculously good option in PM that not enough people really utilize (because it was so bad in Melee). This could probably be covered with an up smash on reaction, though.
3. Invincible ledgehop options. I'm pretty sure Ganon can actually No-Impact Land with invincibility, so honestly, I wouldn't even use this option against ganon and would instead just opt for a washdash to ledge into invincible rising back air. This pushes ganon off stage and his linear recovery is very easy to edgeguard.

Ganon ending up picking option 1 (specifically the ledge attack) and you did well to dashdance grab this, but I think you just made a tech flub and dash grabbed instead of JC grabbed. Snake's Dash grab is really slow (frame 12) whereas a JC grab comes out on frame 8-11 depending on how quickly you cancel your jumpsquat. I'll see if this is a continuing problem or just a single tech flub as I keep watching.

You let Ganon back into the center really easily. Having Ganon in the corner is phenomenal due to the massive strength of the down throw techchase that BND mentioned. You can literally trap him in the tech chase until he's at a high enough percent to f-tilt KO or what have you. Jumping less would help you here—Snake's aerials really aren't very fast and his jumpsquat isn't either. You could've dashdance grabbed the dash attack (which was really bad by the Ganon) and started the downthrow techchase easily. Lucky, you get a tranq off and f-air KO him.

It looks like you're missing your down air l-cancels. Down air tends to lead to grabs really easily, probably because multi-hits scare people into shielding: you can see exactly that happen at 1:11. I'd like to see you nair more, honestly. If you replaced some of the questionable cyphers you had with Nairs, I think your combo game would start to shine. DACUS is another good idea for quick burst movement options. U-tilt also is really good and combos off of dash attack (these are all thoughts that come up during the semi-combo string from 1:11 to 1:25).

The Cypher into Cypher Up-Air combo at 1:58 was super cute, but I gotta point out the failed attempt at 1:52 as well. Only go for it if you can hit confirm it. If you don't see Ganon get hit, cancel Cypher with a Nair or something. What ledge option do you use to set that up? looks like a ledgejump but I wanna be sure. It's a really good option in tandem with the grenade pressure!

These short hop FAirs that you're throwing on your last stock are really questionable. I'd stop those. Also be careful of grenade trades when you're behind on percent. There's no real point for that and it just makes it less likely for you to survive a slip-up. Also be wary of full-charging your mines in the same instances—if you do get hit into it, you die. Just like in game 1

Posting this now so Idon't lose this 'cause my laptop reset lol.

 

[yink059]

Be wary of rolling away from Grenades. It's actually a really bad habit and one that I'm guilty of myself. Snake's roll has a fair amount of vulnerability on it, and you rolled right into the Ganon's back air and lost your first stock for it. If anything, wavedash out of shield to pick it up and mix up your opponent's spacing. You can even spotdodge the explosion if you're familiar enough.

Okay so at 0:50 you have Ganondorf off stage. What's the ganon gonna do? he's gonna try to get back. You set a mine, awesome: Ganon's at roughly KO%, and the mine will at worst force him into a bad stage position (above Snake). HOWEVER, you run into stage after placing the mine: not awesome. It's not bad, but it's not as limiting to the Ganon as it could be. You see that he went to ledge immediately after you placed the mine—so why not wavedash to ledge? The advantage he gets from grabbing ledge is the invincibility to go through the mine safely. Take that advantage away by taking ledge. Simple as that! However, you can still salvage that situation by predicting his method of dealing with the mine: he needs to maintain invincibility somehow to get back on stage, so there's a few options:

1. Standard ledge getups, including stand, roll, and ledge attack. He is over 100% so all of these options are going to be extremely slow and easy to react to. Position yourself to react to them!
2. Ledge jump. This is actually a ridiculously good option in PM that not enough people really utilize (because it was so bad in Melee). This could probably be covered with an up smash on reaction, though.
3. Invincible ledgehop options. I'm pretty sure Ganon can actually No-Impact Land with invincibility, so honestly, I wouldn't even use this option against ganon and would instead just opt for a washdash to ledge into invincible rising back air. This pushes ganon off stage and his linear recovery is very easy to edgeguard.

Ganon ending up picking option 1 (specifically the ledge attack) and you did well to dashdance grab this, but I think you just made a tech flub and dash grabbed instead of JC grabbed. Snake's Dash grab is really slow (frame 12) whereas a JC grab comes out on frame 8-11 depending on how quickly you cancel your jumpsquat. I'll see if this is a continuing problem or just a single tech flub as I keep watching.

You let Ganon back into the center really easily. Having Ganon in the corner is phenomenal due to the massive strength of the down throw techchase that BND mentioned. You can literally trap him in the tech chase until he's at a high enough percent to f-tilt KO or what have you. Jumping less would help you here—Snake's aerials really aren't very fast and his jumpsquat isn't either. You could've dashdance grabbed the dash attack (which was really bad by the Ganon) and started the downthrow techchase easily. Lucky, you get a tranq off and f-air KO him.

It looks like you're missing your down air l-cancels. Down air tends to lead to grabs really easily, probably because multi-hits scare people into shielding: you can see exactly that happen at 1:11. I'd like to see you nair more, honestly. If you replaced some of the questionable cyphers you had with Nairs, I think your combo game would start to shine. DACUS is another good idea for quick burst movement options. U-tilt also is really good and combos off of dash attack (these are all thoughts that come up during the semi-combo string from 1:11 to 1:25).

The Cypher into Cypher Up-Air combo at 1:58 was super cute, but I gotta point out the failed attempt at 1:52 as well. Only go for it if you can hit confirm it. If you don't see Ganon get hit, cancel Cypher with a Nair or something. What ledge option do you use to set that up? looks like a ledgejump but I wanna be sure. It's a really good option in tandem with the grenade pressure!

These short hop FAirs that you're throwing on your last stock are really questionable. I'd stop those. Also be careful of grenade trades when you're behind on percent. There's no real point for that and it just makes it less likely for you to survive a slip-up. Also be wary of full-charging your mines in the same instances—if you do get hit into it, you die. Just like in game 1

Posting this now so Idon't lose this 'cause my laptop reset lol.

ya on nair and dair a bad habit i have is spamming triggers out of some instinct (dont know where it came from). i can WD grab ledge but just dont do it out of habit, like alot of newer players i dont make good use of edge hogging tactics.

and ya i have to stop relying so much on cipher and just aerial game in general :| . thanks cisyphus!

Edit and ya ledge jump cipher is super strong imo

 

[cisyphus]

Here's my really tilted game vs. Oro!? at Shuffle VII. I drank the night before and was playing on tilt sooo here's how NOT to play basically. Nonetheless, my last stock game 2 was super strong, and Solharath made the comment that "if you played like that the rest of the set Oro would be in losers."

My recording clipped the first minute or so off the video, but you still get to see Oro's swag ass off-stage paralyzer back air. Fun set overall. I have one against Hanky Panky from pools as well That I'll upload later on. I'm hoping there's a temp file of the rest of my pools matches somewhere as I played fantastically against basically everyone. My laptop died but the capture card program still showed its recording process so it's possible that I still have it.

 

[yink059]

in these friendlies i feel like i was generally better than i do (after the first few stocks). i do alot of man-up edgeguards because it was friendlies (w/e) and in the beginning i was tech-flubbing on some of my sticks, pulling grenades instead. i tried to style rather than just go for a safe back air or something alot of the time as well.

 

[cisyphus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiFGDoitSDE&list=PLsIskdOc9XnJgfN6B_eDN-FHGHw94a25M

First time teaming with Jawsome and we take a game off one of the best MI PM teams? Nice.

 

[cisyphus]

Here's my set against the immaculate peerless and immutable dirtboy. Lots of tech clubs but lots of cool ideas too.

 

[LupinX]

I played this matchup and man is it wack. His ground mobility is insane and he can nullify your traps. And d-throw tech chase is god-like as always (y)

 

[cisyphus]

Yeah I keep missing JC grabs during the down throw chases

 

[FlashingFire]

SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs ButterJones (Roy): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTiOE2xlIPQ
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Brail_L2K (Mario): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mSuS71iCeM
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Frizz (Captain Falcon): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex-J6XbYUrU

I lost 3 games due to dumb SDs lol. Can't be slipping like that. Also Frizz is a monster.

 

[Sinz]

Hey guys. I won a local tournament on saturday and am looking for some criticism as to what I could do better. I really don't feel like I deserved the win and I need to improve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRw7lCfJHT0 vs X(Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBizmgTFo7k vs Jekyll(Luigi) Winners Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j22_pnVtOcg vs X(Falco) Losers Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aizpz-GE5h0 vs Jekyll(Luigi) Grand Finals

I'm only looking for criticisms for my Snake. The other characters were evidence of my weakness of spirit.

 

[cisyphus]

at least for the falco (I only watched the first link) you have no clear indication of a flowchart with Snake. Crouching under Falco's lasers is good, but you didn't seem aware of the best way to handle his sloppy approach (short hop down air is pretty bad) nor how to force such an option. Use your movement more (could've crawled back, wavedashed back, even dashed back a bit). You also could have crawled or wavedashed between the laser shots that you crawled under and forced a situation that way. Then once you get a hit (normally a grab) you seem unsure of how to follow anything up—Falco at least gets mauled by Snake's chain grab. The other glaring error is the lack of c4 usage, an absolute godsend in any matchup. Your recoveries are very weird, always above stage and never going for a sweetspot (dangerous against a character with a spike like Falco). The nair approaches / general spam is also really questionable, and you never really mix up its usage, creating a very straightforward way of playing that's easily countered. There's a lot of more advanced ideas that seem like you're aware of them (I saw attempts to aerial interrupt and ledge regrabs that both went really poorly) which is okay, but overall I'd say you need to spend a lot more time on the character.

 

[FlashingFire]

SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs SCG | Hona (ZSS, Sheik) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_geujKyiW0E
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Dyl (Link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-XQsPHyr0w
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs SCG | Stoks (Mario) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKXh7sp5jA
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Sledj (DK) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdlgpJ5S51k

Hey look, I won a tournament! Really though, this is some of the best Snake play I have recorded, especially the sets against Stoks and Sledj. Also PM is a fun game.

 

[cisyphus]

Here's all the summit videos, singles and doubles. Placed 7th and 4th respectively! All of these matches are against PR ranked players as well, so they're offering some high level play for sure. I know Bobo and Gndalf in particular got tips and advice from Morks for the matchup:

GLS | Yata! vs. Anther (Pikachu) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2PiFwzxaZI
GLS | Yata! vs. Bobo (Ivysaur) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZPYgw8xuKU
GLS | Yata! vs. Gndalf (Link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzECYc4X3Aw
GLS | Yata! vs. PTO | Blitz (Ike) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZeH8yCTwpw

GLS | Yata! + Anther (Snake + Pikachu) vs. Weon-X + n0ne (Fox + Falcon/Ganon) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCJBdmR5ptI
GLS | Yata! + Anther (Snake + Pikachu) vs. Boreal | Morks + Boreal | Holy (Wario + Metaknight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFpDn23Rl4I
GLS | Yata! + Anther (Snake + Pikachu) vs. Boreal | Ally + KZOO | Dirtboy (Ike + Squirtle) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GeiqGjNSHs
GLS | Yata! + Anther (Snake + Pikachu) vs. LP | Raynex + Ryan Ford (Ike/Fox + Falco) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoDU_HwUEos

 

[cisyphus]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJdaIOil7sL0Ju7SBctlyh5ls1YT6aFfH

I'll be keeping this updated with matches. On the come up for sure

 

[CrimsonSun]

Here's some of my matches. The first few sets are older matches (about 6 months ago):

-CrimsonSun (Snake) vs. Ubik (Dedede, Sheik) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0vmjZoNlqc
-CrimsonSun (Snake) vs. Jake the Preacher (Wolf) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWhlA6S_Tw

---Newer sets (a couple of months ago)---

-CrimsonSun (Snake) vs. Ark (Ivysaur) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI9PVt4Vbng
-CrimsonSun (Snake) vs. NinKenDo64 (Yoshi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69rB7SCHifE
-CrimsonSun (Snake, Bowser) vs. Ark (Ivysaur, Kirby) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIeQ69z9EKw
-CrimsonSun (Snake) vs. Zoma (Falcon, Sheik) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdtMugcazfo

I'm not really looking for advice unless there is something that really needs to be said. Matchup advice would be more helpful then general snake tips.

 

[FlashingFire]

Hey dude. The Snake boards here are kinda dead unfortunately, and most of the PM Snake discussion now happens on Discord. Here's the invite link: https://discord.gg/0gpFvtpZUW0qkzX4