Snake Video Thread of Manliness

[BND]

See Cisyphus's chart for the latter. As for the former, I believe I posted a rudimentary list that's largely accurate barring a few edge cases.

 

[FlashingFire]

Probably not the best place for this question, but...

I don't know the specifics for the whole cast, but as a general rule most human-sized characters will whiff their standing grab while Snake is crouched. So Ike, Sheik, Falcon, other Snakes, etc. Shorter characters like Fox, Kirby and Ness won't have any problems grabbing Snake out of his crouch.

Some characters actually duck Snake's standing grab when they're put to sleep. Notable offenders include Mario and Fox.

 

[cisyphus]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...xOka4oxmmMRbKhfGJ9c/edit?pli=1#gid=1434992830

Linking it directly. Someone ought to sticky it at this point 'cause it answers half the questions posed on this board. I also have a list of Snake's duckable grabs in the 3.5 Snake discussion iirc.

 

[Xyuza]

Nice Sheet! Thanks for the info

 

[Xyuza]

Mario thats for sure. I think Squirtle too but i'm not sure cause i play against a Squirtle and he's constantly hopping everywhere so it's a rare chance that i get him to sleep.

 

[cisyphus]

Everyone listed is "for sure"

???

 

[BND]

<insert earlier comments regarding Sheik>

Completely forgot that Sheik has no reason to be in shield, is more likely to be spamming spotdodges (which still annoys me to an unreasonable extent), and so crouch tilt on shield doesn't actually work. Falling needles are also at least +2 on block from vague testing, so RIP Snake
Anyways, filler post for more videos to come, though I'll probably link them all at once when they get onto Youtube, given Twitch's current silly past-broadcast policy.

 

[cisyphus]

Falling needles are NOT +2 on shield most of the time, lol. That requires TAS perfect timing.

 

[BND]

Falling needles are NOT +2 on shield most of the time, lol. That requires TAS perfect timing.

Oops; I guess I got lucky that time. It seems that needles do 7 frames of blockstun, come out every 3 frames, and have a landing lag of 4. In other words, ground-cancelled falling needles are guaranteed anywhere from +0 to +2 frames of advantage, possibly more if they don't hit on the first frame.
...which isn't quite TAS timing, though they still guarantee at least a +0 and have a 1/3 chance of getting +2. Still, looking pretty grim for Snake given that falling needles are airtight against a shield.

 

[cisyphus]

It's not a 1/3 chance either wtf. You're thinking about this incorrectly. I'm telling you that right now.

Your assumption is that Sheik will have a needle charge, which isn't exactly the most likely thing in the world considering they rarely should get a chance to use it, don't habitually charge them, and have better use of them for destroying mines in general anyway. The Sheik will have 1 needle, and so will have 1 chance to get that perfect timing. Moreover, buffer roll or buffer spotdodge is fine for invalidating that completely, since +2 on shield means nothing but a free jab string.

 

[BND]

I know that, god forbid, if I were playing Sheik I'd definitely keep mines on screen. It limits Snake's options regarding techrolls if he gets grabbed, and overall mines are largely useful as a finisher in conjunction with C4 if it's there/fake pressure/a decoy/edgeguarding IMO due to Snake's plethora of better tech chase options and terrible mobility to follow up off of a mine. (Alternatively, if they forget that it's there, then that's great). Heck, I'd actually consider mines as an escape option from chaingrabs (Definitely worth it if you're scheduled to be grabbed 2 more times and can actually get popped up high enough to avoid followups), but there's some sense of shame in rolling into your own mine and it gives your opponent a perceived psychological edge (which might be worse in the long run), which is why I prefer not to do it.

They will have multiple chances to charge needles (and can actually force it on large enough stages given Snake's slow movement). Snake's camping game is much worse than Sheik's since you only get one shot per 90 seconds, which might be interrupted by needles leading it to blow up without actually throwing it. The only solution is to either approach, presumably crawling slowly or aerially with Snake's subpar aerial speed, or let the Sheik charge needles at its own pace.

...I did overestimate Sheik's capabilities on block and forget about buffered spotdodging (Threw it out from consideration since it's never worked for me well in the past, and I'm still of the casual mindset that spotdodging's annoying in general), though it still puts Snake in a disadvantageous position: I'd rather be the one jabbing than the one shielding.

 

[cisyphus]

You've clearly never played Sheik vs Snake, lol.

 

[BND]

Just did, which is why I'm making comments about the matchup (unless you're talking about in terms of consistent legitimate experience, in which case I agree, to some extent). Should be up soon, hopefully :\
In any case, got any vs. Sheik videos yourself that I can take any pointers from? I was actually waiting a followup on post #155, though nothing seems to have come out of that. Literally the only real reference video (There was another one pre-mass knowledge of Snake) of Snake vs. Sheik I've had was of Prof vs. Jaden, except Jaden wasn't chaingrabbing Prof's balls off for whatever reason (Presumably because of the one spotdodge in game 1, but in most situations I think Jaden was respecting Prof's options too much).

 

[cisyphus]

Sheik doesn't have chaingrabs vs. anybody. Weight dependent throws may come into play as well given that Snake is top 10 heaviest. West MI was once really bad about uploading videos, so I'd bet they've never been posted. That said, there's plenty of Sheik practice around here, and the way you're describing the matchup is not how it goes down in the slightest, and certainly not how I would play the matchup as Sheik.

Sheik's combos require a lot more space than you realize and Snake's tech roll is one of the longest in the game (meaning the invincibility covers a lot of distance). Needing a lot of space means needing stage control, which mines, grenades, etc. all take away. Sheiks try to limit Snake's stage control and then get in when he tries to reestablish it with superior speed. From there, Sheik has to DI mixup or the Snake escapes every time then uses his range to push sheik out.

 

[BND]

Oops; maybe chaingrabs wasn't the right word. It's more of decently-reactable tech reads and forward/back throw mixups. Does that help with the description?

EDIT: Snake's techroll is not one of the longest in the game, I think; I'd guess that it's actually really bad. I main Falcon, and from a random hunch checked the techroll distance for both characters. They are literally the same (They even use similar animations): I used the side of the stage and C4 as a marker and initial knockback tool, and I found that the two actually push each other away from the final techroll position. In other words, they should cover roughly the same distance. Both are also 40 frames long, which confirmed my suspicion. Falcon's somewhat infamous for being easy to tech chase (and presumably one of the reasons as to why his matchup with Sheik is pretty bad), so I'll maintain that my initial thoughts were correct.

EDIT2: Admittedly I forgot to check the orientation of both characters; apparently one of Falcon's techrolls is longer than the other, and I'd imagine the same applies to Snake. Still, the fact that it's comparable to Falcon's means that it must be pretty bad.

EDIT3: If there's less space, isn't that better for Sheik, in the sense of being able to techchase longer techrolls more efficiently?

 

[beanwolf]

I'd just like to pop in and say BND played out of his mind at PMoaL this week and got 3rd, he's the Snake that pittsburgh needs because mine is incredibly fraudulent lol. I should have vods up by wednesday, maybe earlier.

BND and I played Sheik/Snake in Losers Finals. Sheik needles are horrendous on shield, they're only good on actual hit and then into either a tilt or grab (at least in Melee). I also found Snake horrendously easy to tech chase because the tech roll, albeit long, is slow, but typically Snake is combo food off dthrow or bthrow regardless of the DI option (he feels like comboing Marth but easier) so long as you're expecting the Snake to correctly DI away and then reacting to the poor DI instead of vice-versa like many Sheiks do.

It was a little weird adapting to Snake's crouch but if you needle him first or just approach with dtilt or ftilt out of run --> crouch, it just doesn't work. You can also cross Snake up and boost grab his back while he is crouching, and it will grab him even when he's laying down. I would be lying if I said I wasn't abusing the fact that he continued to crouch all throughout the set even after I found out how to correctly deal with it.

Overall though, well played to BND. He might of lost but he still got some sick stuff on my sheik (c4 explosion to restick what)

 

[BND]

Thanks for the comments/running the weekly/replay management. Just a correction, though: most of the grabs that you ended up landing were a result of me mashing Snake's dtilt as a pre-debug mode habit (Dtilt raises Snake's body up a significant amount before the hitbox actually comes out, which I didn't actually figure out until 3.5. Trying to correct the habit, but mashers will always mash). <omitted info>

Truth be told, I was playing a semi-redacted version of the theorycrafted neutral matchup that I had in mind (Was saving it ever since your Sheik beat both my Snake and Falcon in PMoaL1; hah) and half-hoping that you and everyone else didn't notice my camping so that I could abuse it more effectively, though I guess that was wishful thinking given the matchup. Props for adapting.

Was also going to ask before the match if you'd be interested in playing my Falcon vs. your not-Sheik (Your Ganon was somewhat evenly matched against my Falcon last time I checked), since the optimal neutral without DACUSing (which I still can't do consistently) for Snake in the matchup is much, much more boring to watch than Brawl/SSB4, but that wouldn't really follow competitive spirit PMoaL's ruleset encourages, and I was curious as to how my theorycraft would match up against your Sheik. Oh well; will figure something out next time, I suppose.

 

[beanwolf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0fW5af6Tec VOD is up for you @ BND , as well as all the other sets from Saturday

 

[BND]

Ah, thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TojRc-A_R0g Satan's Toenail (Sonic) vs. BND (Snake) was the other match I played on stream. There should be another one of me vs. Jesus/jtm94, though that was on the side recording setup. Not sure when that'll be uploaded and who has it, though I'll link it here if I see it anywhere online (since he seemed to be eager to get his matches recorded, presumably for commentary purposes elsewhere).

EDIT: Found the other one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt8t9g4yNIU

Irrelevant match, since Snake doubles meta hasn't actually been developed to any notable extent (and admittedly coordination was really sloppy; we were trying to go for some experimental stuff, though it didn't work out. The goal was to get a Snake vs Kirby & Sheik vs. Kirby, though that never happened properly.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piuc65ZDUmY M@V (Kirby) & Nakamaru (Sheik), Green, vs. BND (Snake) & FourSwordKirby (Kirby), Red

Comments/critique on either match is welcome, as usual.

 

[cisyphus]

That's weird then, 'cause my data collection suggests that Snake's is about as long as m2's. Maybe it's not tech rolls I was thinking of, but I also remember Super (the Sonic main) commenting on how good Snake's techroll is, so idk.

 

[BND]

That's weird then, 'cause my data collection suggests that Snake's is about as long as m2's. Maybe it's not tech rolls I was thinking of, but I also remember Super (the Sonic main) commenting on how good Snake's techroll is, so idk.

That claim seems to be true (It's still shorter by a little), but keep in mind that the animations are different. This is Snake on frame 14 or 15 (I forget) http://puu.sh/gVPLS/2a6fc2dc56.jpg: you already know where he's rolling. In contrast, http://puu.sh/gVPUW/d4b28d4579.jpg is Mewtwo on frame 15: the length suggests it's not a tech in place, but you still have no idea where he's going. Both are of forward-techrolls.

 

[BND]

...Also, thought I might as well repost this here (3.02):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYh6Mrg_51Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SElGpJPkTSc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6tWpcR8zUE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Uv7_QiwSA

Personally not really impressed* by most of the what the Snake in the video is doing, unfortunately: his sticky game's nonexistent, his grenade handling's ok (I see some instant grenade pickups in there, as well as grenade z-drops, which I'm trying to implement too though for different purposes), though I question some of his decisions with his grenades; his combo game is subpar, and his recovery isn't too great (My gameplay focuses on these aspects, so I tend to appreciate these more).
His movement, on the other hand, is pretty darn good (I'd imagine he's FlaFi's wet dream :^) ). I'd say it's on the same level as Prof's movement, except with much more CHAI/Snake flashing instead of dashdancing and whatnot (They actually mention Prof's name at 2:56 in the last of these, implying that they're somewhat familiar with the meta. Can't tell what exactly they were saying, though they were discussing something about down-B's explosion properties). His zoning isn't bad either, though I'd imagine that 3.5's nerfs might hinder some of that in a competitive setting. Might be worth taking a look at.

*NOTE: Just because his gameplay isn't up to my standards doesn't mean that I don't appreciate his gameplay; I'm personally going to be stealing his edge-walling setups, since it actually looks scarier than I had initially imagined and might help with playing against my roommate's camp-tier Jiggs.

EDIT: Lol @ the unintentional censoring at https://youtu.be/SElGpJPkTSc?list=PLVPggTifdARnpydA2JFb_IvzhWj0-X4--&t=1351.

EDIT2: Scratch that, pretty impressed with his gameplay in retrospect--it feels like he figured out his gameplay himself, since I can't really imagine that he would stalk smashboards. I was also looking at the more lackluster bits, though I still do question a few of his decisions (given that he probably has the technical skill to make them on purpose).

 

[LupinX]

Beauty 10: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYkLkcUZQJOM0SW0NJKGkHQ/search?query=professor+pro+project+m

Here are prof's matches in the tournament. What do you think of the matchups, and what could he done better?

 

[cisyphus]

Prof played horribly vs. Leffen lol.

 

[LupinX]

Prof played horribly vs. Leffen lol.

I knew there was something off about that lol. I think in one of the videos leffen said prof just plays melee now, so i guess it kinda contributes this. i am sad though lol

 

[cisyphus]

No Prof was definitely playing PM before that tournament. The problem is that he plainly doesn't convert off of his neutral wins.

[Grand Finals set]
He grabbed falcon at 0% numerous times, and his answer was always to throw him into a mine, but that's just not the best option. U throw leads to a techchase at that percent and should be used as such, mixing in down throws until the chaingrab can start. From there, CHAINGRAB. It's free damage, especially on Set two game 4 on Final Destination (lolwut). You can chaingrab falcon up to like 70 percent, then follow him up with a c4 stick, and on the fall you can catch him with a nair and convert into a regrab from that, where you can u throw u air and KO with C4. Falcon NEEDS to die every stock because Falcon can do the same to Snake.

There was even a situation on Pokemon Stadium II where Prof had a mine under the platform and was on the flank of the stage with Falcon in a grab. This is the prime time to down throw, walking him toward the edge just enough to trap him.

He can also probably Cypher Cancel Nair in those situations and get the regrab that way, but it's less consistent.

 

[Professor Pro]

No Prof was definitely playing PM before that tournament. The problem is that he plainly doesn't convert off of his neutral wins.

Tbh, I honestly haven't been playing it lol.
The last time I played it previously was like 2 weeks ago on my stream and even less prior to that

Even at Big House 4 I literally didn't touch the game like 3 weeks before the actual tournament and I was focusing on Melee and I got 2nd.

I'll extremely likely play a bit more PM Snake in 3.6
But I'm trying to become a top level Melee player and literally 99% of my smash time goes into Melee and it's hard to balance both to be honest, but I have a few goals that I want to achieve in 3.6 so you guys will likely be seeing a lot better gameplay from me in the future as I will be playing it more.

 

[cisyphus]

Yeah I was going off of your twitch streams where I remember you playing PM with Jolteon. Didn't realize that was already so long ago :x I was in that chat talking with you if you recall.

Is this confirmation that Snake's getting some interesting changes in 3.6? :o

I find that just playing melee develops your neutral and punish mentality really effectively, and that correlates really well into PM, but you definitely need to invest in some theorycraft and techskill practice in PM just to keep sharp and have the correct applications. It's something I'd devote 30-60 minutes a day or every other day for and just play melee the rest of the time. I've mostly gone the same way since I'm starting to get into top 32 at Sweets, which is kinda awesome for me. I'm challenging to players favored to win the Second Michigan Arcadian now too and that's just fantastic. The balance is definitely tricky at times.

 

[LupinX]

Please revert snake's down-B capabilities back to 3.02. Like he really needs it lol

 

[Professor Pro]

Yeah I was going off of your twitch streams where I remember you playing PM with Jolteon. Didn't realize that was already so long ago :x I was in that chat talking with you if you recall.

Is this confirmation that Snake's getting some interesting changes in 3.6? :o

I find that just playing melee develops your neutral and punish mentality really effectively, and that correlates really well into PM, but you definitely need to invest in some theorycraft and techskill practice in PM just to keep sharp and have the correct applications. It's something I'd devote 30-60 minutes a day or every other day for and just play melee the rest of the time. I've mostly gone the same way since I'm starting to get into top 32 at Sweets, which is kinda awesome for me. I'm challenging to players favored to win the Second Michigan Arcadian now too and that's just fantastic. The balance is definitely tricky at times.

Yeah, I 100% remember you from my stream

And yeah, Melee helps me become a better player for PM BUT I still need to actually keep up with PM to maintain and push Snake further than he currently is.

But as said before, I will be playing Snake more in 3.6

 

[LupinX]

If you guys play smash 4, what stuff can be learned from that game that will benefit snake in PM?

I play melee pikachu (been concentrating on PM more than melee), and it helps alot with my tech-chasing and wavedancing, as well as edge guarding to an extent.

 

[cisyphus]

I feel as though Smash 4 has a lot of difficulty transferring, besides possibly the idea of safe approaches and fundamental ideas like positional advantage, both of which can be got just as well from Melee in addition to a lot of other things.

 

[LupinX]

Ah... it's cause i've just noticed people that come from brawl to PM are very smart and make optimal decisions.

 

[FlashingFire]

Here are all of my recorded sets from Aftershock and Choose Your Character. I'm of the opinion that losses are even more important to learn from that wins, so not all of these sets reflect my best play. That said, they contain some examples of what NOT to do (particularly game 1 against Jitty... lol that was so bad on my part) in addition to some solid gameplay.

SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Mijo (Mario) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sNJ7MdOnEw
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Stauffy (Lucario) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkB-ajMRh50
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Hamyojo (Sheik) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pwYIz1Z6pA
SCG | FlashingFire (Snake) vs Jitty (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNf5BPUvWgw

Some of my own thoughts on these sets:
- Mario is annoying lol. Lots of fireballs and safe moves. I was fairly proud of how I handled the MU and powershielded more fireballs than I ever have in a single set.
- Stauffy made some very good decisions on when to go in, which was typically after I missed a trand or tried to cover a landing with it only for him to Double Team at me. I'll have to revise my tranq habits.
- Hamyojo played the MU like a jerk, but he did it well. Needle camping into grabs into combos into edgeguards. It did't help that I made a lot of sloppy execution errors. I counterpicked FD because I can duck needles until I'm in range to do stuff, and that's where I CP'd the last Sheik I beat, but my playstyle didn't really fit the counterpick.
- Game 1 vs Jitty was horrendous, straight up. I played like booty. I remembered what to do game 2 and won solidly. Game 3 was up and down, I REALLY thought that my final Dair OoS would punish his Dsmash on my shield. That move has so little endlag lol.

Finally, here's a crew battle from CYC where I took 8 stocks, including 3 from Luck and 4 from Hamyojo. Skip to 12 minutes in for the Snake stuff.

UTD vs OU Crew Battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbWvnFYT4E

 

[LupinX]

Putting mines near the edge, while the opponent's on the ledge is generally a bad idea and traps your movement. I also noticed the lack of on-hit f-tilts.
Were you nervous while playing them? You usually play alot better from what I've seen

 

[FlashingFire]

I don't think it was nerves as much as it was unfamiliarity with how exactly I wanted to edgeguard Sheik. Mentally I'm like, "Ok, if I place a mine here and then WD to the ledge at the right time, I'll be invincible and force her to Up-B into the mine, right?" And then the fact that I haven't practiced that sequence shows through. I'll have to hit the lab and drill that setup into my hands or something. Maybe pick a different strategy. I don't get to play good Sheiks very much.

 

[cisyphus]

Honestly unless the Sheik is at KO percent or has a stick, I wouldn't even go for that. It's so much better to ledgejump waveland on stage into c4 + grab.

 

[BND]

Hrrm; played PM for the first time in a month. Didn't do all that well, unfortunately. There are lots of things I can john about, though the main issue was that I set my muscle memory wrong. Roommate insisted on playing Sheik two days before, so I had to camp tons. Got fed up playing 8 minute matches with him and we ended up turning explosive items to prevent further salt and only played teams once we got the chance, so I didn't get a good chance to change my muscle memory back to how it originally was.

tl;dr grenade proficiency + camping 24/7 doesn't yield good results in tourney for me.

(For reference of how badly I did in traditional matchups, lost to someone's usually-3-stockable-Ganon after beating his usually-somewhat-difficult-to-play-against-Sheik relatively cleanly, of all things)

In any case, the only match I have at the moment is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snhvp7TRuuE. Some pseudo-new tech in there, though I probably won't be playing like this again for a long while (Hopefully muscle memory will reset over the summer).

EDIT: Footage of the aforementioned terrible gameplay featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtJyMkGAzvQ. Upon closer analysis, I think what happened was that I was playing really lazily for the first few stocks/didn't have the heart to play seriously, and when crucial moments came, it just so happens that I fail to convert off of my grabs properly for whatever reason.
(I definitely remember that my eyes were unfocused at least halfway through the second match. I also remember that after losing my first match vs. him, I thought that it was a fluke and went back to FoD. In retrospect I probably should have played my usual vs. Ganon matchup and went to FD, but too late for that now, I guess)

EDIT2: Never mind, I was definitely feeling out of it. Just remembered https://youtu.be/7iKIFk5vLZQ?t=420 happening; got a good scolding from my teammate for sandbagging after the match. I also threw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zlac9k0-8I really really badly and the loser's match after the previous one (SDs everywhere, in particular during a 2v1 situation with my teammate at high percent).
</johns>

 

[LupinX]

Is it advisable to mine alot? And how do you practice your grenade game?

 

[BND]

Is it advisable to mine alot? And how do you practice your grenade game?

It really depends on what you're using it for, who you're playing against, and their own proficiency regagrding mine usage/adaptation. For edgeguarding, you should almost always put down a mine somewhere. Where you put that down depends on your own preference in terms of edgeguarding, since it's the lazy way out for dealing with a specific getting-back-to-the-ledge option.

There's some use for it in neutral in certain matchups, namely the ones where the opponent doesn't have a convenient long-ranged projectile. You have the option of putting it at ground level, one platform up, or two platforms up.

If you put it at ground level, the mine can easily be eliminated with run-up shield (Apparently this is now common knowledge, given that the player I played against seemed to have limited matchup knowledge vs. Snake and did it anyways), but if you and the opponent are on the same partition of the stage relative to the mine, the opponent will likely be trying to throw/combo you into it. On the other hand, you may have other plans, depending on your own playstyle. Regarding grounded mines, I personally prefer to put the mine in areas that nobody frequents, initially behind me, so that hopefully I can use it as a future penultimate finisher (or, if putting the mine down in between stocks, for wasting time). I'd say that the risk-reward of this varies depending on where exactly you put it on the stage.

Putting it at the edge of a platform up sacrifices a lot of movement and positional advantage if you're the type that enjoys using platforms for techchases and whatnot, but has a ridiculous amount of potential. For starters, it's impossible to blow it up with run up shield if you guard the other end of the platform. I've believed for a long time that there are certain setups that could theoretically give Snake a 0-100-or-time-out matchup against certain characters, but for the sake of preserving Snake's reputation I'd rather not detail it. (It's pretty obvious anyways)
It also has two other obvious advantages: most of the PM cast consists of floaties, and if you put mines at ground level, there's a possibility that they can jump over the mine before it detonates (though you could potentially detonate it manually using another mine) if you throw them into the mine. With that being said, fthrowing or bthrowing should get them into the mine fairly easily. If that doesn't work, then you're probably close enough to the mine that you can up throw them in. This is probably a high risk, high reward option, since it limits jumping in general.

Finally, putting it on the topmost platform obviously gives no benefits in neutral, but works great as a finisher since you can KO a few percent earlier. You're also less likely to run into it. Probably low risk, (probably, assuming a reasonably competent opponent) low reward.

tl;dr where or when you put down mines depends a lot on your own playstyle, your opponent's vs. mine competence, and their own character. Experiment and see what works for you.



As for grenade practice, I personally think it's pretty straightforward to do IGTs: the input is literally OoS aerialing after dropping a grenade, except right before you throw out the aerial/grenade, you airdodge. In terms of practicing, just make sure you can do it against a stationary opponent. When the time comes to do an IGT, focus on your controller and the grenade timer, not the opponent (unless they're charging an fsmash in front of your face or something). More likely than not the IGT will be successful.