Snake Video Thread of Manliness

[KOkingpin]

Added the latest Videos and deleted the old 3.02 videos

 

[FlashingFire]

3.5 vids of me:

SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs Jitty (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6CRVHk6jY
SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs El-Dro (Falcon) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4p-sGuTSc
SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs A-Wall (Ivysaur/Link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8R-Wheg710
SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs Rahma Noodles (Mario) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-nRSscHXRw

A note on the match with Jitty: I kept placing mines in the center of Battlefield because in previous sets Jitty had displayed a habit of using Boost Nair to get to the center of the stage. Keeping a mine there removes this option and makes it tougher for him to reset to neutral after getting hit.

 

[Xethos]

So I don't really play this game anymore, due to life stuff, but I got a chance to go to a smashfest the other day, and I was on stream a bit. I was really rusty and so I had a lot of flubs. The main problem I'm having is my matchup with Marth. I'm honestly not too sure what to do. This was also my first time facing a Zelda and DK, but after re watching the stuff, I think I get those matchups. Anyways, here's the vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSa0Ob37dmU&index=4&list=PLnlhbqKWCybXPK1R80E9phz0egg0kwKXd

The times I appear:
0:50:11 in part 4
1:37:46 in part 4
1:57:53 in part 4 and continuing on to part 5
And I play almost every other match starting 45:45 in part 5

Any critique is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[cisyphus]

West Michigan has five tournaments coming up in the next month, and a lot of them are PM-focused. With the formation of ZTD as a reliable stream setup, I'll be sure to get a lot of matches on stream. We notably have a strong Ike (Lordy), Squirtle (Dirtboy), Marth (Lain), Ness (Toast), Wario (Blake) and Sonic (Solharath) that come out for a lot of events. There's also Lucas, Spacies, Ivysaur, Zeldas, Sheiks, and Donkey Kongs that aren't quite as strong, but definitely worth the viewing regardless. With my recent top 16 at Sweet Prologue and massive improvements to my PM Snake meta over the weekend, I anticipate facing off against all of these people in the higher echelons of these tournaments. Keep an eye out! I've pretty much got the Squirtle matchup figured out, since I was 2 and 3-stocking Dirtboy at Sweet Prologue (it used to be decisively the other way around).

Oh and watch those videos that FlaFi posted. The Mario matchup is especially good. That first combo was fantastic, and the d-tilt for the tranq punish is really inventive. A lot of crisp movement throughout as well. Learned a lot! I played Zinoto's Mario a fair bit at Sweet Prologue and struggled to take games off him, and this certainly makes the matchup more doable. I do feel like you don't opt for enough C4 sticks (you tend to dair instead) and down throw tech chase is ridiculously strong with Snake as well: 14% per grab and 3% per pummel and an ability to (theoretically) extend the tech chase for forever? Yes please. Shield Drop C4 stick on get-up attack is probably hella swag too. Time to write another guide, I think!

 

[cisyphus]

Alright, I've finally got a video, albeit not a terribly great one: http://www.twitch.tv/zerotodeath/b/609557896
17:30 ~ 30:32 Vs. Lucario.
Game 1 on Battlefield
Game 2 on Pokemon Stadium
Game 3 on Fountain of Dreams

My entire concept for this tournament was to gain some patience, so there's definitely some excessively campy moments in here. There's also some glaring errors (particularly my ledge choices) that need to be buffed out, but game 3 has some notable ideas going on in it as well. Any critiques welcome of course

[johns]Playing on stream makes me super nervous for some reason so I definitely made a lot of silly tech errors[/johns]

 

[BND]

Didn't critique when your match came out (and unfortunately, I sort of forgot some of the things I wanted to say) since I was waiting for weeklies in my area so I wouldn't have to double post, but there are a few things wrong with your Snake flowchart (The word flowchart here is not meant to be derogatory in any sense; it's more of "If I see ___, I have the options of ___") that I'd like to add onto or correct:
1. Ftilt after down air may be a better option than grab against an opponent who likes to roll. If you ftilt them and they're trying to shield and/or roll, then they can't tech if they hardpress shield (Still have no idea how lightpresses work). Ftilt comes out about 3 frames faster than grab.
2. When recovering with your C4, tap B and don't hold it. There was an error at about 23:00 where you couldn't blow up Lucario since you held B instead of tapping it. (You wouldn't have made it back onto the stage, but at least you'd get ~18 damage)
3. Not a flowchart issue, but be careful as to where you put your mines. I think in match 1, you planted a mine, dropped down, and pulled out a grenade. That's a pretty bad sequence of moves for obvious reasons; if your opponent read your roll out, they'd get a free punish.
4. This isn't an improvement, but if someone clearly doesn't SDI, there's no reason for you not to abuse down air in a tourney match.

Anyways, managed to get a tourney match with biased commentary on stream yesterday: roughly 2:40:00 on http://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/b/612418510. (There might be a youtube link up soon; will edit this as soon as it comes)
I hate to john some more, but after practicing the day before to make sure my IGTing capabilities were on point (They were the day before), apparently I wrecked both my fingers and my controller. Both are obvious in this match; I SD'd roughly 2 of my stocks each round (twitchy fingers) doing grenade tech, and my controller had an upwards tilt to it for some reason (Managed to get it replaced after losing 2 stocks). There IS still some grenade tech in here, though it's mostly muscle memoried grenade tech that I didn't have to come up with on the spot. You'll see me repeating the same few sequences over and over, which is bad, but most of the sequences were fairly safe to do.

Regardless, said match was against a day 1 (again) ZSS. Unlike FlashingFire's analysis on ZSS on page 3, it seems that this matchup might be in Snake's favor if they're willing to be a scumbag and crouch the entire game (I would have crouched the whole game, but I'm a naturally impatient person regarding games). All of ZSS's grabs whiff on Snake under normal circumstances when he's crouching, and dash attack doesn't knock down until a long while later if crouch cancelled, leading into a backwards dtilt (higher frame advantage!) -> grab. No forward smashes and side-Bs were used, so I'm not actually sure if it IS in Snake's favor, but it's definitely not terrible.

It also shows some weaknesses regarding Snake's dair & ftilt, mainly in what they do when crouch cancelled.

As for the rest of the tourney, I lost against a Marth that was clearly better than me (I was actually close to beating him both rounds, since he wasn't familiar with the matchup and it turned into a comboing slugfest; you can see him playing in the games before, albeit not against me), and a Sonic (who was also somewhere on stream, once again not playing against me). Anyone have any suggestions as to how to deal with Sanic? Snake doesn't have any good disjoints to beat out blue-ball (not actually sure what he's attacking with, but eternal Jigglypuff rollout with jumps is no fun), Sanic can jump over mines and C4s, which makes you one mine/C4 short and resets to neutral, held grenades are obvious and deplete your shield, and tranqs are too slow (and the Sanic in this case mashed out REALLY fast; barely got a C4 on him at 70% after a tranq)

As usual, comments/critiques welcome. I do know that I shouldn't have placed mines as an edgeguard in this scenario though, or at least I should have mine -> wavedashed.

EDIT: Oops, forgot about the doubles matches. 10:00 and 1:01:00, though neither was particularly good (Trying to shift away from omnigaying, as people are being encouraged to RPS for ports now)

 

[FlashingFire]

Regardless, said match was against a day 1 (again) ZSS. Unlike FlashingFire's analysis on ZSS on page 3...

Wow, that analysis was from a long time ago. I was a lot worse back then.

Anyway, these days I think Snake does fine against ZSS. Crouching helps a ton, and ZSS is a great combo weight. Approaching such a mobile character remains a pain though.

 

[cisyphus]

Didn't critique when your match came out (and unfortunately, I sort of forgot some of the things I wanted to say) since I was waiting for weeklies in my area so I wouldn't have to double post, but there are a few things wrong with your Snake flowchart (The word flowchart here is not meant to be derogatory in any sense; it's more of "If I see ___, I have the options of ___") that I'd like to add onto or correct:
1. Ftilt after down air may be a better option than grab against an opponent who likes to roll. If you ftilt them and they're trying to shield and/or roll, then they can't tech if they hardpress shield (Still have no idea how lightpresses work). Ftilt comes out about 3 frames faster than grab.
2. When recovering with your C4, tap B and don't hold it. There was an error at about 23:00 where you couldn't blow up Lucario since you held B instead of tapping it. (You wouldn't have made it back onto the stage, but at least you'd get ~18 damage)
3. Not a flowchart issue, but be careful as to where you put your mines. I think in match 1, you planted a mine, dropped down, and pulled out a grenade. That's a pretty bad sequence of moves for obvious reasons; if your opponent read your roll out, they'd get a free punish.
4. This isn't an improvement, but if someone clearly doesn't SDI, there's no reason for you not to abuse down air in a tourney match.

1. I'll have to try it out I suppose. I feel like if they're able to roll, they're able to shield, and they're therefore able to punish f-tilt (although I suppose I can mixup with second hit or with a crouch, tilt, et al). The other concern is that Lucario doesn't get comboed by anything out of f-tilt and therefore requires them to miss a tech (which they can do if they light press to shield).
2. I am tapping with B believe it or not. This was a bit before I started heavily practicing this tech, though, so I think what was going on was I was tapping it too quickly and getting what is essentially a hold input.
3. I'll have to double check what exactly you're talking about, but I tend to place mine, drop through with grenade pull, and then WD the grenade (not roll). If I rolled, it must've been a bad input. I try to roll only as a mixup, so we're in agreement here, I'd say!
4. That's actually really true. More presence on my part is really necessary. I just kind of assume that people know to I guess?

Adding another video: me getting bodied by an Ike. Match starts around 17:40, but we miss the first ~10 seconds.
http://www.twitch.tv/zerotodeath/b/612327194
Lots of flubs here, but definitely need some tips on this matchup (Getting hit with f smash twice jesus christ). I feel like I got cheesed hard, but that's no excuse, either. I know @Thane of Blue Flames was keen to help me with this one?

Squared off against KJH later on in the tournament and lost a close 2-1. This was my second match of the day iirc.

As for the ZSS matchup:
1. That first grenade on top platform could've been shield dropped into dair, which would've been a fantastic combo starter. I'm not proficient at this myself, but it's something to be aware of and to aspire to.
2. You could've gotten more off of that first grab at 2:40:37. ZSS gets regrabbed on neutral DI up to 50, and Beanwolf DI'd away, meaning a free regrab or Stick. SH Nair would've been a better option than FH dair as well, as the later just restores neutral.
3. The high recovery is questionable, and you only get away with it because beanwolf SDs. ZSS has a fantastic UAir and Back Air and the jump height to punish you. You also should go lower so you can tech the C4 damage boost.
4. You dair a lot. It breaks up your combo game really badly when you whiff. be more mindful of which aerial is the best for your situation. ZSS is a bit of a fastfaller (comparable to Roy) so juggling her is a good idea (use UAir in situations where she's above you). Essentially, use your aerials simplistically: back air for behind, up air for above, down air for below, nair for in front (because fair is situational).
5. Recognize the power of juggles: Grenades can't trade with a lot of u-airs/u-tilts. better options (especially at around 2:41:15 when beanwolf is double jumping to juggle you) is to Cypher (wavebounce it if possible to get farther away and more toward center stage) and come down with a C4 (or grenade if you get far enough away that ZSS has to use Back air). The threat of C4 tends to be enough to force some patience, in which case you can DAir afterwards. If not, you're up a stock and can detonate and at least get the damage.
6. Your platform camping is really lacking in this match, and I don't really find it a viable strategy to begin with in this matchup given ZSS's strong upward attacks. I utilize this a lot in floaty matchups (especially Kirby, Peach, Puff, and the like) because they tend to enjoy being grounded and are KO'd very easily from the platforms. You need a mine on one of the lower platforms so that the opponent is forced to jump to approach or use the other platform. This narrows their options down and allows for an easier time covering their approaches.
7. You get a walljump out of your C4 tech. I feel like this is a tech flub in either your walltech (you held up for the Cypher too early) or the Cypher itself (you wanted to wavebounce but failed to do so). You can also tranq out of the walltech and hit opponents waiting on stage, but it's got very limited uses and tends to be hard to capitalize on. The other option is to back air to shift the momentum and cover an approach like the one Beanwolf uses during the third stock, which also makes the cypher recovery a bit more lenient (you have to damage boost again to safely make it back on stage).
8. Don't recover high against ZSS. It's really unsafe, as seen at 2:42:10 where you get downsmash stunned into forward smash. This might've been due to your controller issues, but I highly encourage button checks/handwarmers before matches for this reason—Snake is super technical anyway, so it's a good idea regardless. Even after you fix the issue, you still miss the sweetspot pretty consistently.
9. Downthrow at 2:43:37 could've been read into a pivot tranq (I did it just while watching). Players at this level really tend to panic after a down throw (especially the first one) and instinctively try to regain stage position (rolling toward the center). The problem with this is that Snake's tranq covers the roll behind. It's a super basic DI trap, but it works. The C4 works after they see you cover their roll.
10. The commentator and I had the same thought at the edgeguard at 2:43:45 "NO! GRAB LEDGE!" Seriously. ZSS only has tether recoveries and your mine placement combined with her damage meant a free KO. Grabbing ledge is 100% safe in that situation. This is something to add to the handwarmers sequence: work on your wavedash to ledge (be sure to get the fastfall inputs as well) in tandem with placing a mine to cover the stage landings. It's really good. This is another big reason I tend to place mines at the start of matches: I'll wavedash back off the platform and fastfall to avoid going to ledge, which helps me later on as well. Fortunately, Beanwolf jumped right into the mine and died anyway, but you could've made it airtight.
11. Recognize the heights at which you can pull a grenade and have it explode. You die at around 2:44:05 simply because you don't know.
12. Another poorly-chosen FH dair out of up throw at 2:44:18.
13. The platform techchase dair was great, though. Good stuff.

Game 2:
1. The dair works here on uthrow because of the much lower percentage. I think the jab after landing was supposed to be a grab? jump cancel your grabs after aerials to eliminate botched inputs like that. The jump cancel isn't difficult and the only options that it allows for are grabs or nair, both of which are good in the situations.
2. The crouch bait was phenomenal and exposes Beanwolf's lack of matchup knowledge.
3. Understand that platform techchases need to cover every option. You up throw ZSS onto the platform and then cover the tech in place and the roll right. But you totally whiff the roll left (which is the best option and the option beanwolf chooses). Better is to waveland on platform and grab the tech on reaction. Snake's grab can cover half of most platforms (only Smashville and Norfair's are excluded iirc) so if you manage to waveland directly to the center, you'll cover every tech option in theory.
4. You do the wavebounce grenade again, and i have to wonder if it's a flubbed input or not. B-reverse grenade would've been solid (your commentator's gotta stop calling wavebounces b-reverses).
5. Your use of wavebounce grenade is amiable, I gotta say. It's really crisp and smooth. Taking notes on that one.
6. Waveland at 2:48:00!! Outstanding
7. 2:48:50 d-tilt into C4 stick would've been fantastic.
8. THIRD TIME YOU DIED FOR THE WAVEBOUNCE GRENADE. STOP THAT.

Game 3:
1. ZSS tether jump on stage is extremely punishable, but the fair is kinda tricky to land. I'd have just gone for a stick, reading that beanwolf would try to shield or roll to avoid the hit (which he did!) and follow up with tranq probably.
2. 2:50:45 I wanna assume the up smash was meant to be utilt.
3. 2:50:08 See! this is what I mean by grab being good for dair followups. Your ftilt gets shielded. It's not so easy.
4. 2:51:27. Son. Son. SON.
5. That ftilt gets spotdodged at 2:51:45 as well. Hmmm.
6. The c4 drop around 2:52:30 is good, but you can capitalize better (especially at mid percents) with an up air. Strong hit will launch them high and let you set up mines and grenades, whereas the weak hit can lead into combos. You can see me use that a lot in my match vs. Era's Lucario
7. Aeros told me after our match: you land with fair too much. You have the same problem. SH Fair isn't very good tbh. replace those with nairs and you'll be good (I'm doing that myself and have seen drastic improvement).

Come up to Michigan soon, dude! SWEETs might run PM (I can't remember if they're switching between PM and melee doubs or not) and we have Daddy's Kisses running east side PM-focused events too. Get a Pittsburg carpool together or something.

 

[BND]

Thanks again for the comments; a few rebuttals, as usual:

Game 1:

* Ignoring most things up to #8, unfortunately, since the problem with my controller was that it was randomly tilting up (There was an instance where a jab turned into an uptilt. Easy uptilts are nice, but not at the cost of jabs and an inability to drop through platforms/fastfall). I couldn’t calibrate it to stay at neutral, so I ended up borrowing another controller.

4. Realistically, I probably should have attempted a regrab here. TBH, never actually played against a ZSS before, though, so I played it *relatively* safe and opted for a universal followup than a chaingrab. (Also, after my muscle memory reset from not playing for a month, it seems that my grenade usage drastically improved at the cost of my chaingrabbing abilities. Not sure why I can’t have both, but hopefully it’ll come back.)

**I took a picture of my able-to-be-grabbed cheatsheet before going to the tourney. Bringing your chaingrab chart as well to the next weekly that I attend [?!]

5. It’s a bit unfortunate, but my roommate’s conditioned me to pull out grenades (which is presumably why I use them so much) rather than challenge with down air (Marth up air hurts a lot, and dropping a C4’s somewhat meaningless if Marth’s already up there with you, mashing up on the C stick).

9. Beanwolf used to play Snake, and he did the tranq-as-a-roll-techchase a lot (much more than I did, at least). He didn’t know that you can stick someone on the ground before he quit, though, so I was trying to abuse his lack of knowledge in the matchup. Didn’t think he’d roll since I thought he was at least partially familiar with the matchup.

10. I’ll try handwarmers next time, though now that I think of it, I think I can just shorthop onto the ledge. Placing a mine really close to the edge seems to be a really bad idea now that I think of it mainly because Snake can’t refresh his invincibility when he grabs the ledge (Regrabbing risks your mine blowing up).

11. I think you know what’s happening here by now. (The misinput probably stems from me tilting the controller back onto the stage too fast after turning around with the grenade in hand)

Game 2:

1. Beanwolf likes to spotdodge/roll a LOT during pressure. Truth be told, that was probably supposed to be an ftilt, but the crouch cancelling would have messed that up anyways. (I didn’t actually expect him to start crouching, though in retrospect it was probably in response to me crouching in the first place)

3. Good point; noted.

4. That’s my fault, actually; I thought that turning around during your B animation was normal, and that the term B-reverse was saved for the more peculiar wavebounce’s momentum shifting.

6. I didn’t actually notice this bit until you pointed it out; apparently it was a subconscious thing. I should probably take a look what the frame data says about this when it’s shielded and see if there are any good follow-ups in that scenario.

Game 3:

1. Noted.

2. Yupyup.

3. Normally, down air combos directly into ftilt, and if they were trying to shield after the down air then they can’t tech. I’m not sure what happened here, but I think the reason the shield came up was because I missed the third hit of down air.

5. See #3.

6. Roommate conditioning why (Usually I miss the C4, so I often pull out a grenade as a failsafe since my main priority’s to get back to the ground, not to damage the opponent coming down. Should probably take my opponent into consideration next time.)

6. Also noted. I keep underestimating the landing lag for forward air.


Anyways, a few comments for your matches, in no particular order and without too many references to specific times:

1. Make sure to pay attention while recovering, and don’t be afraid to let go of Cypher. C4 jump should be part of muscle memory; you ate at least two Ike Fsmashes because you held Cypher for too long. In particular, at 18:37, you didn’t need to C4. Mix up recovering high and grabbing the ledge; Snake’s fall speed is good enough that you can juke the opponent when they think you’re going to recover high. Also make sure to sweetspot the ledge, though that’s a different issue.

2. I’m actually going to point to another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl9nV3ymfDE. I haven’t tried it, but Ike’s Aether seems to be easily grenade-able (See 1:37), and the other guy seemed to be putting out a good number of Aethers.

3. Taking a look at your edgeguard success rate with mines, it seems pretty low. I’ve been experimenting with this without much success (aside from a few 1-time anti-edgeguard gimmicks), and I’ve never played any non-day-1 Ikes, but just an idea: C4 can be stuck to the side of the stage. Better yet, you can C4 the side of the stage while ledgestalling (though it’s not completely invincible), and it covers a bit below the stage as well as a bit above the stage. If you knock Ike sufficiently far away (or rather, if he’s at a sufficiently high percent and sticking him isn’t worth it), putting a C4 on the edge might be an option. (Don’t use this option right away without experimentation, of course; I still haven’t figured out a definitive use for it)

4. Note that a quickdraw can be jump cancelled, so a tranq isn’t always the best option. Always funny if it’s landed though.

5. If your opponent doesn’t mash out quickly, stick -> utilt/upthrow+up air/cypher -> C4 is still the best kill followup to a tranq provided your opponent doesn’t have ungodly mashing speeds (As previously mentioned, it’s possible though unlikely to mash out at 70% with only a C4 on you). This is especially true after the forward air nerfs.

6. Make sure to B-reverse your grenades so that your back is towards the opponent. I was surprised that the Ike wasn’t getting blown up by the held grenades, but then I saw that you were facing in his direction. Pixels count, unfortunately.

7. Landing a dtilt usually ensures a grab, which is great against Ike since his fallspeed gives a lenient window for chaingrabs. There was this one instance where you back aired for a little more damage, but that was it.

In any case, as much as I’d like to come to Michigan, the amount of time I have for PM goes down drastically when school’s open, with the first week or two as an exception, since there’s always work to be done. I guess it’s weeklies only for the time being

 

[cisyphus]

If you have a smart phone, you can actually get the Google Spreadsheets app (at least on iPhones you can). It's what I use. It's a lot easier and gives you the KO% data as well.

1. Yeah it's a part of my game I still don't do quite right. There are a lot of times where I let go way too early. It's tough timing because they can hit the cypher and have the hitlag extend the hitboxes, so the timing is actually extremely strict in these situations.
2. I think that's a really bad example, given how high the Ike UpBs (good Ikes never leave themselves so wide open) and where the snake is in relation to that (above and behind him, so to speak, as opposed to on stage).
3. I actually thought about that way before this matchup as was really excited to try it, but I never really found an opportunity and it seems too gimmicky to practice tbh.
4. Ike's got a rather high jumpsquat iirc, so it catches quite a lot of options. moreso I just don't know what to do against QD.
5. I'm confused as to what you're suggesting here tbh
6. Yeah I can't seem to always get the reverses—I'm well aware of their utility.
7. Didn't know this. Back Air seemed like the best follow-up, but I'll try this out!

</3

As an aside: Had a GR smashfest happen by surprise tonight. Found out then that floaties are literally stopped dead by platform camping. It punishes aggression super hard, you die a lot faster which puts the time out pressure on hardcore, and you have massive mixup options by shifting which platform you base your operations on. You can also catch them with tranq on side platforms every so often. Work on squeezing C4 and grenades between the side and top platforms to force approaches and occasionally drop down to the base platform to keep them on their toes and thirsty for the approach. This can also make a reversal situation where they don't really have an option for getting down, especially if you've covered the side platforms via mine and C4 (both of which cover 99%* of Battlefield's platforms). I'll need to try this more vs. Marth, but it's extremely effective vs. Kirby and Zelda. I'll try to get some video of this to demonstrate really clearly. It's extremely difficult, to the point that the Sheilda main told me straight up "okay, I'm banning Battlefield against you from now on" as well as "I never feared your Snake before, but I'm afraid of your Snake now." The amount of mindgames necessary for this strategy is immense, and the patience even more so. It's kind of a beautiful, disgusting thing to see. Grabs are awesome on platforms too, especially with C4 coverage. Ayyyy
*thumbsup*

*this figure is based on a really quick test with teetering Zelda. Her animation sometimes allows her to avoid the mine, and sometimes get hit. This could also be due to human error (can't ever get the mine perfectly in the center) but for all intents and purposes, it's sufficient imo. Keep them in the middle if possible, and know that you can detonate mines remotely by planting another if they're conscious of avoiding them. C4, mine, and grenade all have the same hitbox sizes as well, so far as I can tell from this same test.

 

[beanwolf]

Welp BND looks like I'm coming back to Snake. ZSS is infuriatingly hard to kill with and Ike is fun but let's be honest, he's not as good as my Snake was and I have a lot of work into Snake already. PM has too many characters I like, and TBH I am just biding my time until Knuckles comes out, where I drop everything to main him.

Anyway, the set. You were having controller issues all day so I wouldn't beat yourself up too bad on the errors. You utilized crouch well considering the ZSS literally can't do anything about it. I really wouldn't take ANY stock in that match for the ZSS matchup because that was literally my second day of playing the character, but something I think is universal that you should improve on (from this set and just playing with you often) is your out of shield game.

Snake's UpB OOS is absolutely busted even without the invincibility, abuse it. Also just general wavedash out of shield --> grab. Snake's grab gives pretty free followups on most characters, so grind that out. If you WD and Shield with opposite triggers it's super easy. You are honestly really good at these raw sticks, but I think you would get better mileage out of them if you did them moreso out of up throw and combos than just raw, mostly because your opponent is still in a poor situation rather than neutral.

We need to get some dittos in next time PMOAL happens or possibly the OGS thing this weekend if I don't end up going to Ohio for Melee. I'll hopefully have some Snake footage for you all, I'm our region's streamer/recorder and we have some good PM character diversity so I should be able to get a lot of matchups recorded.

 

[cisyphus]

There's tale of Gamero and Fendrick coming down to Pitt to moneymatch Bambi I guess, so I might just try and hitch a ride sometime. Snake ditto RRs?

 

[beanwolf]

Absolutely, I don't get enough time to play PM as I'd like. Pittsburgh is heavily Melee and I've been working on my Sheik as of late. Still PMOAL happens every saturday regardless of whether or not I'm there to stream so we'll figure something out.

And wow Fendrick still salty about what Duck said at BWW? TBH I think Bambi can wreck him but Bambi SD's like a mofo

 

[cisyphus]

I think it was actually Bambi that issued the challenge~~

 

[Gushers™]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeAgLKUIxQ&index=1&list=PL4m7vccCq2QVmvZTIxX_EAK_llA-9AOTO

Please keep in mind this is my first time using snake in a competitive situation.

On stream.

Against one of smashing grounds best players.

Advice, however, would be greatly appreciated. I'm aiming to get on stream again next week, and I'm working hard to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[cisyphus]

Work on your fundamentals. No seriously. Work on your fundamentals. Learn how to DI marth's throws, learn how to move effectively, and learn how to avoid follow-ups. It shows that you're really green. Sit down and grind that **** out. Use the posts in this forum to help guide you (there's a lot of good ones).

 

[Gushers™]

In the snake forum or the PM one as a whole? Also thanks

 

[Gushers™]

Ignore that last question.

 

[Sylarius]

Couple games from a week ago I'd like critique on if it's cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYkjduJl3iw

I play two matches at 5:31:50 vs a Fox (as well as one right before the timestamp, but it's pretty derpy and I wouldn't recommend watching it) and win them both, then play two more matches at 5:45:40 vs a Wario.

TL;Dr skip to the last paragraph

For some background info, I've never dropped a game vs the Fox player in our history (probably 5+ sets by now?), he's ranked #6 on our current PR, and I've lost to the Wario player in the past who's ranked #2 on our current PR. There was a tournament two nights ago which isn't updated on the PR where I 2-0'd, then 3-2'd in LF the 3rd ranked player on our PR, and got 3-2'd in WF by the Wario player but 3-0'd and 3-1'd him in Grand Finals. So I'm currently top 3-4 in my region, if that matters any. (Ranked 5th on the PR which hasn't been updated for the last tournament, and most people would agree I'm top 3-4 I imagine.)
http://zenja.ca/pr/pm/

Even though I do pretty well, I still feel like I'm pretty bad and cheesy. I was formerly a Brawl player, barely touched Melee (never owned it) and mostly picked up PM (also never had a setup for it) once Brawl died in my region. Using Snake since he is somewhat similar to Brawl Snake and I found it pretty natural. I haven't had a setup since Brawl died for any of the games so what I'm currently doing is almost completely stuff I've learned from watching videos, tournament experience and Brawl stuff.

For the last point, I don't actually feel like I'm playing the character very well and most of my wins come from people not knowing what to do against Snake or me. I make a lot of bad inputs and am extremely slow with Snake and if that may be apparent from watching the videos, it's a lot of Up B spam (or so it feels). My setups are pretty decent and sweetspotting the ledge is alright as well. I couldn't/can't DACUS consistently yet but working on that. The main things I'm seeing with myself are I could be a lot faster/mobile with wavedashing in general, + wavedashing to pick up grenades and running in with shield, which I don't do much/at all (I'm still pretty awkward with wavedashing and I barely do it in the above videos.) I also think I could be getting more setups/kills with upsmash and/or DACUS as an approach or when they're stickied. Any other advice would be appreciated as well as tips for Snake v. Fox (which is my main problem MU - I pretty much get overwhelmed by the pressure. Would the solution be to use grenades while in shield more?)

Sorry bout the long post. Even though I'm ranked one of the top players in my region at the moment I really feel like I'm playing terrible... I don't really know what to think of it. The vast majority of the jabs in the wrong direction are me trying to do a ftilt behind me (which worked in Brawl but doesn't in PM afaik) but the rest looks mostly right and is actually me being really slow.

Suppose that's it. Blah

Edit: I also don't use down aerial at all when I could

 

[cisyphus]

I feel as though I'm really good at the Fox matchup (taking games off KJH and sets off of Tran: two of michigan's PR ranked fox mains) so here's what I do:

Grab combos absolutely ruin Fox. At low percents (0-40%), you can do a jab cancel to catch fox if you do it perfectly. A lot of Foxes don't know how to react to this so you can get a regrab off of it, or if you're late AND they miss the tech, you can regrab there as well. The grab can also catch the tech in place if you react to it. If they tech roll away, you can DACUS and catch them. On that note: DACUS is phenomenal in this matchup. Fox is one of the few characters you can consistently combo DACUS to FAir, which can easily be a KO if they tech roll near the ledge. Besides that, DACUS gives you any follow-ups that are faster than FAir (which is basically all of them). Once they're up to about 40% you can chaingrab them up to 80 easily. On stages like FD (GHZ, YIB, and Smashville fit into this as well to an extent) this is extremely easy, but on stages where the platform is an escape option, you can either continue the techchase (via waveland, UAir Aerial Interrupt, or Snake Flash/CHAI) or read their tech option and get the C4 stick. My point here is that Snake combos the crap out of Fox and all you need to do is be consistent at those punishes.

As for dealing with Fox: his shield pressure is theoretically unbeatable, but it requires the type of precision that is simply not humanly possible (KJH and Tran are notoriously technical players, and I still get out of their pressure). The problem is that Snake wants a grab, but Grab is really slow when it comes to dealing with spacies. Cypher OOS is actually your best bet as it's two frames faster, and your habit of going for a C4 stick after is actually really good to have. Your other option if you notice that they're especially aggressive is to just shield a grenade, utilizing a wavedash toward them as a bait if they start waiting it out. Your goal is to get them to be scared to approach you, as that's Fox's strongest asset. This makes the game slow down and play at Snake's pace: methodical, patient, and trap-heavy play. Use grenades a lot and be wary of SHDL camps as they can explode grenades in certain scenarios (which turns into a combo against you because of Fox's strong approach). Use your grenades, mines, mortars, Cypher, and C4 as bricks in a wall that you'll build around yourself and Fox can't approach.

Snake is extremely heavy and relatively floaty with a potentially infinite recovery, and Fox's horizontal KO moves aren't exceptionally strong, so your main concerns are going to be Up Smash and Up Air. Learn how to smash DI the Up Air (via 20xx or resident Fox players willing to help you on it) and they're basically forced to depend on Up Smash, and Up Smash is far more committal. This is why I actually discourage flat stages like FD for the Fox matchup: if they can't Up Smash you out of a combo (which is stopped by platforms) then they can't KO you if you're good about your smash DI until ridiculously high percents or via low percent Shine gimps (so stay away from the ledge). Meanwhile, Snake can KO Fox well with Up Air juggles into C4 or by edgeguards (F-tilt is especially good because of its low angle) and has no trouble comboing Fox up to those percents.

My takeaways: learn how to DACUS, get techchases and grab combos 100% consistent, and learn some advanced survival tech like proper damage boosts, B-reverses (mostly with grenades and Cypher), Smash DI and DI in general, and wavedash a whole lot more. These are all things you can practice solo relatively easily, so all you need to do is invest the time to do it. That's why I'd also recommend dropping the Wolf and Marth that you seem partial to using: they may work at the lower levels, but that Wario wrecked them consistently. Snake requires a highly specialized skill set and is in kind of an Ice Climbers kind of position where you just gotta ride or die Snake, in a sense.

 

[Sylarius]

Snake is extremely heavy and relatively floaty with a potentially infinite recovery, and Fox's horizontal KO moves aren't exceptionally strong, so your main concerns are going to be Up Smash and Up Air. Learn how to smash DI the Up Air (via 20xx or resident Fox players willing to help you on it) and they're basically forced to depend on Up Smash, and Up Smash is far more committal. This is why I actually discourage flat stages like FD for the Fox matchup: if they can't Up Smash you out of a combo (which is stopped by platforms) then they can't KO you if you're good about your smash DI until ridiculously high percents or via low percent Shine gimps (so stay away from the ledge). Meanwhile, Snake can KO Fox well with Up Air juggles into C4 or by edgeguards (F-tilt is especially good because of its low angle) and has no trouble comboing Fox up to those percents.

My takeaways: learn how to DACUS, get techchases and grab combos 100% consistent, and learn some advanced survival tech like proper damage boosts, B-reverses (mostly with grenades and Cypher), Smash DI and DI in general, and wavedash a whole lot more. These are all things you can practice solo relatively easily, so all you need to do is invest the time to do it. That's why I'd also recommend dropping the Wolf and Marth that you seem partial to using: they may work at the lower levels, but that Wario wrecked them consistently. Snake requires a highly specialized skill set and is in kind of an Ice Climbers kind of position where you just gotta ride or die Snake, in a sense.

Before that tournament I had said to myself & my friend I was 100% dropping Snake since I felt bad with him (though I went back on that plan as I got thrashed as Wolf who's my main/secondary in both LF & GF) but even though I've picked up Snake again I still feel pretty terrible with him every time I play lol. Even though I do pretty well in my region.

Not sure what you mean by "proper damage boosts". I don't have a setup (or anything close to a setup barring buying a ton of equipment) so practicing solo isn't possible

Thanks for the rest of the advice though. Will post another video on Thursday which is the next tournament here

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Before that tournament I had said to myself & my friend I was 100% dropping Snake since I felt bad with him (though I went back on that plan as I got thrashed as Wolf who's my main/secondary in both LF & GF) but even though I've picked up Snake again I still feel pretty terrible with him every time I play lol. Even though I do pretty well in my region.

Not sure what you mean by "proper damage boosts". I don't have a setup (or anything close to a setup barring buying a ton of equipment) so practicing solo isn't possible

Thanks for the rest of the advice though. Will post another video on Thursday which is the next tournament here

Btw my friend PM WiFi could help you, that helped me improve my Falco Alot and if you have a Capture Card you can record a few matches and others will most likely criticize.

 

[cisyphus]

I meant to edit it this in sorry: by proper damage boosts, I really mean B-reverses out of walljumptech. There was a point where you got a walljumptech, but didn't b-reverse, and you die for it. B-reverses keep you wrapped against the stage and makes it a LOT harder to edgeguard as well as putting either the Cypher hitboxes or a grenade around you for that added protection. You can even Tranq sometimes and covert it to a KO in rare cases. Those three options together can counter almost every option the opponent has and all you need is proper techskill and proper reaction to your opponent's position.

I've done that "100% dropping x character" recently as well, but I found myself still playing Sheik in Melee at Manor VIII afterwards. It happens, but I feel the draw of my Samus and can see it succeeding. Our situations also seem pretty different: my Sheik is better than my Samus, but I hate playing Sheik. You just seem to be underwhelmed by your Snake, but are not ambivalent about playing Snake. So play Snake unless you really don't like it. A lack of practice is hardly a reason to drop a character: nobody is going to be instant tournament winners, you've gotta put in the work.

Setup johns kinda bug me, 'cause Wiis are roughly $30, and it costs at most another $10 to get PM working on it—CRT, SD, Disc, and/or USB drive. That's like one minimum wage shift. Granted I'm not aware of your financial situation, but I can't see how that is "a ton of equipment."

 

[moonfolk]

Setup johns kinda bug me, 'cause Wiis are roughly $30, and it costs at most another $10 to get PM working on it—CRT, SD, Disc, and/or USB drive. That's like one minimum wage shift. Granted I'm not aware of your financial situation, but I can't see how that is "a ton of equipment."

Just sayin', I ain't poor, but finding a decent CRT plus buying the game and card cost about $50, not to mention a decent controller $25, and in my case, an RF modulator, $15. I don't play any other video games, so I didn't have any of this stuff. Anyway, john'n ain't gunna make you any better, but it really ain't cheap. Luckily, I had a friend who was willing to give me a Wii.

 

[Sylarius]

That price actually is a lot less than what I was expecting. Still can't really house a setup with my current living arrangement but if that changes I'll try and get one. And yeah I meant to b-reverse tech there but screwed up and died lol.

 

[LupinX]

I've been watching some professor pro vids lately and I'm just wondering, does b-reverse (grenade) remove the pin lag in the air? And does it extend the grenade duration?

 

[cisyphus]

I'm inclined to say no. I can't imagine why it would have those effects and haven't noticed them personally, either.

 

[LupinX]

oh alright. it's cause I see a lot of grenade reverses after up-b or so. I was wondering why cant snake just pull the grenade like normal

 

[cisyphus]

The advantage is that it mixes up your movement. You can certainly pull it normally, but b-reverses (that is, changing your momentum and direction) baits your opponent to cover one movement and then introduces another—which additionally has the grenade as a possible punishment/trade to return to neutral.

 

[Sylarius]

oh alright. it's cause I see a lot of grenade reverses after up-b or so. I was wondering why cant snake just pull the grenade like normal

Oh. Do you mean when he's recovering high and coming back to the stage, and turns around when he pulls a grenade but keeps moving in his original direction? That's because the grenade is closer to the opponent if your back is to them afaik, so there's a higher chance they'll detonate it if they attack you.

 

[Sylarius]

Here's some more sets of me from Thursday. In Winner's Semis I lost 2-0 to the Wario player (Vash) who's #2 on our PR (was not recorded) and lost to him 3-0 in GFs. He beat me 3-2 in WF the previous week and I 3-0, 3-1'd him in GF.

In LF I played the currently #1 person on our PR who had gotten 3-0'd by Vash in WF. I was down 2-1 and in the fourth game he knocked me off the top with Fox's uair but intentionally killed himself before the game ended, so TOs ruled it my win and wanted us to play a fifth game (as it was 2-2 after that game). I ended up taking the fifth game and then there's a large break in the stream while the TOs go over stream footage and stuff since it was a really awkward situation as he would have taken the set had he not killed himself.

Anyway, I went full Snake this tournament. Newer things I tried to do that I haven't before were grenade shield drop -> wavedash grab -> run in shield, edgeguarding with C4 and DACUS (with a ton of failed ones). I think I also attempted to use more dash dancing/wavedashing but didn't end up doing much of it (mostly between stocks...).

http://www.twitch.tv/teamtacotv/b/620953309
04:44:40 is my first set on stream. LQF against a Samus. Not sure why I messed up C4 second game.
05:07:20 is LSF against a Luigi. I haven't dropped any games to him as Snake yet.
05:15:55 is LF against a Fox (stream has it wrong). Missed a lot of upb C4 here. I get up after the fourth game since I thought he won and beat me 3-1, but I didn't see he had killed himself and eventually get called back for a fifth game. 05:24:30 was meant to be a backair. 05:18:18 was meant to be an upair DI, gotten myself killed twice by accidental fair in this set. T_T

http://www.twitch.tv/teamtacotv/b/621076505
02:50 is GFs against Vash. 03:30 is accidental Snake flash LOL damn, I would've had the kill otherwise. 04:40 was meant to be an utilt. Also would've gotten the kill here if I hadn't messed that up. I really should have detonated C4 at 05:18.

17:27 is a bo5 against Vash for fun. I go Wolf first game and Snake for the rest. He 3-1's me here. Don't have an explanation for when I reload twice instead of killing him with C4, was just derping.

At 34:00 we try testing to see if you plant a mine or C4 on Randall if it comes out the other end. (It doesn't, it falls off once Randall goes through the stage).


Sorry again about the long post. Advice/tips/MU advice is helpful as usual.

 

[cisyphus]

I'll try to look at your matches later on in the day (homework's built up over this weekend oops!). I also have some footage from GVGP4 from this Saturday. The first is against KJH (PR ranked Fox that beat Plup at Apex this year!) where I went 2-1 again. The second is against a Samus player that I first met months and months ago and labelled a scrub, but I've seen him on the come-up and he actually 2-0'd me. Only one game was played as Snake since I wanted to give ROB a shot at the matchup (and it seems favorable overall, my ROB is just not strong enough in the neutral yet). I also might have some games vs. Lain (Really strong brawl-turned melee player) where I go pretty even with his Marth, as well as Money Matches against Era (local Lucario player) where my ROB goes super even and my Snake kinda bodies him. I had other pools matches played on stream, but I can't find them presently. Had a super stacked pool with Lain, myself, Robjoe (infamous for bopping K9 a while back), and Schwik (solid MI Ganon) all present: ended up with Lain getting first seed and the three of us in a three-way tie for 2nd, as all of our matches went 2-0 in pools and I lost to Robjoe who lost to Schwik who lost to me. It ended up with schwik > me > robjoe. Silliness abound.

http://www.twitch.tv/zerotodeath/b/621881499
First stock of the first set got cut off but it was a sick chaingrab into stick right off the bat. And I get uthrow uair'd 'cause I'm consciously trying to SDI the uair more.
Second set is at 40:47. I remembered the Samus not being able to deal with my crawl but he seems to have figured out how to shoot homing missiles since the last time we played lol. I kinda just scrambled tbh. I kinda feel like Battlefield wasn't the best neutral pick. despite Dreamland's massive scale, the platforms there are a lot more versatile for the gameplan I tried to employ here.

ZTD is slated to come out to Manor VIII next Saturday, so expect a lot more footage from me soon!

 

[cisyphus]

@ Sylarius :
Just based on comments: with your accidental up air DI versus Fox (I assume you mean SDI) you should hold the C-stick to DI and them Smash DI solely with the control stick, smashing it between the diagonals adjacent to the direction you want to SDI. This still registers as unique SDI inputs and eliminates c-stick aerial inputs. Theoretically, it's more consistent as well.

Exceptional use of the walking grenade animation in the Samus game. Really outstanding stuff.

 

[Sylarius]

@ Sylarius :
Just based on comments: with your accidental up air DI versus Fox (I assume you mean SDI) you should hold the C-stick to DI and them Smash DI solely with the control stick, smashing it between the diagonals adjacent to the direction you want to SDI. This still registers as unique SDI inputs and eliminates c-stick aerial inputs. Theoretically, it's more consistent as well.

Exceptional use of the walking grenade animation in the Samus game. Really outstanding stuff.

Ah, right. Yeah I meant SDI. I'll use that method next time - I think I was mashing them both instead of holding the C stick in one direction (and I remember now that you mentioned it that your method is the more efficient one) which is why I had those faulty aerials and also was a toss up if I DI'd it correctly or not.

What do you mean by the walking grenade animation?

 

[cisyphus]

It's the more natural method for sure, especially with Hbox (or something like that right?) popularizing "double stick DI." I do it too, but it's something to distance oneself from.

Where you pull the grenade, hold B, and input a horizontal direction. You use it to punish a roll at one point. The Samus kinda looks like they didn't know the matchup that well, but you definitely played very solidly.

 

[Sylarius]

cisyphus, not sure if you wanted critique from me or not, but I wouldn't mind taking a look at your sets if you do.

I have some more sets of myself from last night I'd like critique/advice on as well, the more the better. Ended up taking 2nd here and am now #2 on my region's PR. The Fox player (Monkeybear) who used to be #1 is now #3 and the Wario player (Vash) is now #1 from #2.

I lost to Monkeybear in Winner's Semis 2-1 after an extremely close second game - last stock high %s, I detonated C4 after being knocked into the air expecting him to jump after me (which he did), but the C4 hit me as well and killed me while sparing him. I got demolished the third game.

I beat Monkeybear in LF 3-1. He SD'd twice the fourth game and forfeited. I lost to Vash in GF but beat him in a bo3 $1 MM after. I'm not really sure but it feels like I do better vs him if I play a set beforehand (like two weeks ago when I lost to him 3-2 in WF but beat him 3-0, 3-1 in GF, then last night where I lost but beat him in the next set). Takes me too long to download him I guess.

I'm thinking I may be pulling grenades too often and using downsmash too carelessly in my sets, especially against Monkeybear. I'm also slow to act out of shield or in the neutral game, and I really need to get down double jump -> wavedash onto the stage while on the ledge. I also feel like I play better when I'm down % or a stock in the game, and I'm not sure how to fix that lol. All advice/critique is helpful and I'll try to incorporate it next time - this time around I used DACUS, nair, crouch canceling and upthrow chaingrabs more. I also get a ridiculous amount of dthrow setups on platforms or near the ledge with mines covering their roll.

Something funny I remember doing at least three times, all in different sets, is killing myself with C4 in the air when it was stuck on the opponent. I think I killed my opponent two of these times as well.

Lot of videos here so if anyone's only interested in watching a few, look at the WSF/LF/GF sets.

05:31:40 is WQF against the Samus from the last videos. 2-0. Both were pretty close and I took them from behind.

05:41:00 is WSF against Monkeybear (Fox). Lost 2-1 here, demolished the third game. I started picking battlefield less against fox after this set because he killed me with triple upair on the first stock - before that game it was my second favorite stage after warioware.

06:13:35 is LSF against a Fox/Lucas (Jynx). He hadn't played PM in awhile. I remember going for a style combo here with bthrow instead of uthrow in the second game, but nothing memorable otherwise.

06:22:00 is LF against Monkeybear.

06:35:40 is GF against Vash. I get 3-0'd with the first two games being really close. I think I was really careless of Wario's side b and could've recovered better vs his farts.



Again, advice/critique/tips are all appreciated.

 

[cisyphus]

yeah man do it up. That's why I posted them. They're actually on youtube now too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ihc1xncn8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jctKQJOA-AQ

 

[LupinX]

I was playing friendlies and i faced falco and wolf and got bodied. falco because of his neutral laser game and wolf because of his ridiculous combo ability. Do you guys know how to maintain neutral without getting interrupt by lasers (falco).

 

[cisyphus]

crouch. lol

 

[LupinX]

Well that made sense lol.