Snake Video Thread of Manliness

[Sylarius]

yeah man do it up. That's why I posted them. They're actually on youtube now too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ihc1xncn8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jctKQJOA-AQ

Aight, sorry for the late response. Not sure if my advice would be helpful or not. Take it at your own risk I suppose.

Fox games:

-You get uthrow uair killed a lot without DIing the throw forwards or backwards. You can usually hold one of those directions in shield so you DI if you're thrown. Wavedashing or dash dancing more probably could help with avoiding that as well. 8:09 was a good time to hold a side direction
-I thought you could use grenade z-drop -> wavedash to pick it up -> run towards him and shield (or throw) more often since it looks like the fox gets better about attacking you on shield with a grenade. 2:52 4:55 5:19 are some times I probably would have done it.
-Thought there were a lot of good times to wavedash away from him in neutral or close to neutral.
-7:20 definitely would have gone for the ledge there, trading when two stocks down really hurts (but trading while ahead in stocks is ideal)
-Movement could be faster. I have the same problem for sure


Samus game:

You play these games a lot differently than I did mine so I'm not really sure if my advice is any good lol.
-1:29 uthrow or utilt would have killed him. Not sure if the ftilt was intentional or not
-3:14 was the kind of wavedash I thought would be helpful in your fox games
-3:58 wasn't a good trade since you were down.

If you went for stickies more you probably could get a lot of early kills, especially on his second last stock. The grenade throws up were good.

I was playing friendlies and i faced falco and wolf and got bodied. falco because of his neutral laser game and wolf because of his ridiculous combo ability. Do you guys know how to maintain neutral without getting interrupt by lasers (falco).

I kinda play it by ear but yeah, crouching for falco can dodge all his lasers. Wolf will want to pillar you and probably go for nair/dair approaches but his shine can be crouch cancelled and you can eventually start teching his dair. If he jumps at you in the air grenade shield or grenade wavedash pickup shield should beat his nair or dair approaches.

 

[LupinX]

I kinda play it by ear but yeah, crouching for falco can dodge all his lasers. Wolf will want to pillar you and probably go for nair/dair approaches but his shine can be crouch cancelled and you can eventually start teching his dair. If he jumps at you in the air grenade shield or grenade wavedash pickup shield should beat his nair or dair approaches.

Thanks man, I played a wolf main and crouching helps a ton. Appreciate the response

 

[LupinX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma2vVyfGnmM

Here's my snake match vs my buddy who is a zelda main. As you can see i'm pretty bad. I would like some constructive criticism on the matches with him to help me improve n zelda/ other floaties.

 

[Sylarius]

I guess I forgot to link my twitch archive...? derp.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamtacotv/b/623934399

Will take a look at your videos later today Lupin

cisyphus, not sure if you wanted critique from me or not, but I wouldn't mind taking a look at your sets if you do.

I have some more sets of myself from last night I'd like critique/advice on as well, the more the better. Ended up taking 2nd here and am now #2 on my region's PR. The Fox player (Monkeybear) who used to be #1 is now #3 and the Wario player (Vash) is now #1 from #2.

I lost to Monkeybear in Winner's Semis 2-1 after an extremely close second game - last stock high %s, I detonated C4 after being knocked into the air expecting him to jump after me (which he did), but the C4 hit me as well and killed me while sparing him. I got demolished the third game.

I beat Monkeybear in LF 3-1. He SD'd twice the fourth game and forfeited. I lost to Vash in GF but beat him in a bo3 $1 MM after. I'm not really sure but it feels like I do better vs him if I play a set beforehand (like two weeks ago when I lost to him 3-2 in WF but beat him 3-0, 3-1 in GF, then last night where I lost but beat him in the next set). Takes me too long to download him I guess.

I'm thinking I may be pulling grenades too often and using downsmash too carelessly in my sets, especially against Monkeybear. I'm also slow to act out of shield or in the neutral game, and I really need to get down double jump -> wavedash onto the stage while on the ledge. I also feel like I play better when I'm down % or a stock in the game, and I'm not sure how to fix that lol. All advice/critique is helpful and I'll try to incorporate it next time - this time around I used DACUS, nair, crouch canceling and upthrow chaingrabs more. I also get a ridiculous amount of dthrow setups on platforms or near the ledge with mines covering their roll.

Something funny I remember doing at least three times, all in different sets, is killing myself with C4 in the air when it was stuck on the opponent. I think I killed my opponent two of these times as well.

Lot of videos here so if anyone's only interested in watching a few, look at the WSF/LF/GF sets.

05:31:40 is WQF against the Samus from the last videos. 2-0. Both were pretty close and I took them from behind.

05:41:00 is WSF against Monkeybear (Fox). Lost 2-1 here, demolished the third game. I started picking battlefield less against fox after this set because he killed me with triple upair on the first stock - before that game it was my second favorite stage after warioware.

06:13:35 is LSF against a Fox/Lucas (Jynx). He hadn't played PM in awhile. I remember going for a style combo here with bthrow instead of uthrow in the second game, but nothing memorable otherwise.

06:22:00 is LF against Monkeybear.

06:35:40 is GF against Vash. I get 3-0'd with the first two games being really close. I think I was really careless of Wario's side b and could've recovered better vs his farts.



Again, advice/critique/tips are all appreciated.

 

[Sylarius]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma2vVyfGnmM

Here's my snake match vs my buddy who is a zelda main. As you can see i'm pretty bad. I would like some constructive criticism on the matches with him to help me improve n zelda/ other floaties.

I guess you haven't played PM long? I'd definitely watch some videos of good Snake players for ideas and how they play, as well as what followups or combos they use after certain moves.

At 1:12 your dair was a good punish, and you could have hit him with ftilt or grab, but you went into shield instead. After he dsmashed you could have punished that as well with a shieldgrab but there was a strange wavedash back. Getting better at these only really comes with time so the more you play the more you'll start to recognize these situations.

Mind you the dair was a great punish.

4:08 the grab after the dair was a good followup. At 7:34 you do it again so I'm not sure what happened at 1:12 lol.

It seems like you're not having trouble with movement like wavedashing or wavelanding. Definitely seeing you pick strange options or attacks - that gets better with practice and watching other snake players. I'd also look for ways to incorporate grenades and C4 stickies into your gameplay, especially C4s as stickying (sticking?) people can get you kills far earlier than not stickying people via uthrow/usmash/utilt/dsmash/grenade/uair -> C4. This is especially helpful for people like Zelda who are floaty and are more susceptible to kills off the top.

 

[LupinX]

I guess you haven't played PM long? I'd definitely watch some videos of good Snake players for ideas and how they play, as well as what followups or combos they use after certain moves.

At 1:12 your dair was a good punish, and you could have hit him with ftilt or grab, but you went into shield instead. After he dsmashed you could have punished that as well with a shieldgrab but there was a strange wavedash back. Getting better at these only really comes with time so the more you play the more you'll start to recognize these situations.

Mind you the dair was a great punish.

4:08 the grab after the dair was a good followup. At 7:34 you do it again so I'm not sure what happened at 1:12 lol.

It seems like you're not having trouble with movement like wavedashing or wavelanding. Definitely seeing you pick strange options or attacks - that gets better with practice and watching other snake players. I'd also look for ways to incorporate grenades and C4 stickies into your gameplay, especially C4s as stickying (sticking?) people can get you kills far earlier than not stickying people via uthrow/usmash/utilt/dsmash/grenade/uair -> C4. This is especially helpful for people like Zelda who are floaty and are more susceptible to kills off the top.

I have played PM for two months as well as maining snake. When I started, I kept getting wrecked by my friend's Zelda (even to the point 4-stocking me). I have gotten better in those 2 months watching professor pro (3.5) with c4 timing and set-up, though I admit after watching the video at least 2 times, I could've had better options like you stated. I have also practiced some grenade shield wavedash from platforms to muscle memory. I changed my control set-up to my liking for better control and movement.

As for my Zelda match-up in the video. I find it really annoying because she can transform right after I sticky her and pretty much have to find another opening aka chain grab to sticky as sheik. To rememdy this, I incorporate more of my spacing and mine games to damage her enough where I can sticky her to a kill.
I've watched your recent video and man, your sticks are legit. your combo in 6:25:30 was awesome, keep up the good work. I'm learning a lot vs fox so your matches are a great help to me. Question though, who do you watch when you are practicing snake? And who are the top snakes right now? so far I only know professor pro lol
Thanks a bunch

PS
It's good to find a fellow Canadian and a snake main as well (Y)

 

[Sylarius]

Oh I'm ******** if sticky gets removed by transform lol, I should've known that.

Professor Pro is the best. I also watch videos of Rolex & FlashingFire. You can find some videos of Snake players here: http://smashboards.com/threads/top-players-videos-by-character-v3-5.378056/

Thanks for the compliments, and yeah Canada 4 life

 

[cisyphus]

Transform definitely removes the stick because the Zelda character model gets replaced by the sheik character model. The solution is to detonate on reaction. Otherwise, use your C4 to control that part of the stage.

 

[LupinX]

I was at my buddy's today and was playing ike for 4 hours and switched to snake on my last 2 hours. And man, i was playing pretty bad. I kept approaching him, planting random mines/running into them and missing my up-b nair grabs. It seems that i'm playing a whole new different character overall. Usually when i switch between other characters, this doesnt break up my muscle memory and can adapt to that character pretty well ex. ike--> mewtwo etc etc. It seems now that counterpicking characters isn't right for me, so i'm gonna stick with snake full-time.

 

[cisyphus]

I definitely implore anyone (Snake main or otherwise) to stick with their character. Almost without exception, there's no matchup in this game which undeniably constitutes a character switch**. Snake is a character that I can't imagine having a matchup like that when he has such a vast array of tools to apply to this massive variety of battles. Mario, Sheik, and Marth really are the only characters I think Snake does poorly against. Everyone else is at least 4:6 or better for Snake.
**exception: MUs like Ice Climbers vs Peach which are just unwinnable.

All that considering, I'm surprised that you have trouble switching characters. I actively play ROB, Samus, Sheik, and Snake and find a lot of the ideas present in my secondaries appearing in my Snake: ROB's grab followups, Samus's zoning game and ledge options, and Sheik's tech chasing and tilt presence all play vital roles in augmenting my Snake gameplay. Ike is another zoning character that depends more on mixups (mostly grabs and RAR shenanigans), however. Snake doesn't really have that sort of gameplay.

 

[LupinX]

When i play my characters, I play aggressively (coming from a melee background). Whether it is ike, samus, bowser, mario, even zelda etc etc. It's because of snake, I play more collected and analytical, on which I have to know whats going on on myself (tranq shot count, grenade oos/b-reverses), my opponent (distance, pressure, approaches, c4), and the environment (mines, c4 spacing). I guess it's instinct that lets me play aggressive with snake to which i only play 2 matches and switch back to snake.

 

[FlashingFire]

Professor Pro is the best. I also watch videos of Rolex & FlashingFire.

I'm glad people are learning things from my videos. Here's a few more.

SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs Sledj (DK, ZSS) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuOn5hZwqbM
SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs Dyl (Luigi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J63y1BX798o

A close set that I lost:
SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs Jitty (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX1CaPX1TW0

A set where I got completely bopped:
SCG|FlashingFire (Snake, Roy) vs Gnosis (Mario) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8QNX7NLrc

 

[yink059]

youtube.com/watch?v=kDMnA2EJBHo

myself at a local, critique is appreciated

 

[cisyphus]

A few things I can see you need improvement on:
1. Dashdances. You never use them, and they're incredibly useful for baiting certain reactions. In particular, your tech chase at one point found you with your back to Falcon and in shield for his get up attack. You waited for just a moment, dashed away to dodge the attack, then dashed back in and got a followup.
2. Recoveries. You seem afraid to stagetech with C4, but that's the safest way to recover. there was one time you went straight up, which is not something you wanna do vs. Falcon: he has the momentum and hitstun to jump out and knee you no problem. Your options from ledge feel very limited as well. Explore the applications of wavelands and rising NAir and Fair—using Cypher to throw a hitbox out and stun the opponent helps a lot with the fair, and actually creates a tech chase situation.
3. Offensive grenades. Especially to bubble blast KO, I feel like doing that at the final stock of game one would've won it multiple times. Your grenade game in general felt underwhelming—Falcon is a character where you can freely pull grenades because of his hitboxes and his lack of projectiles, and so you should abuse that fact.
4. Chaingrabs: the biggest reason for picking PS2 in this matchup is the chaingrab on Falcon, imo. you can set up traps on the platforms to punish that escape option, and then just regrab and drag him back toward the center until you can't follow up anymore.
5. BACK AIR MORE. For real. It's a little worse knockback than Fair but it'll actually hit more consistently than fair or nair's third hit, and Falcon is a joke to edgeguard: down smash then wavedash to ledge covers every option he has.
6. Platform techchases: There were a lot of times where Falcon was on a platform and you didn't capitalize on this. Your best options here are: 1. waveland or CHAI into grab, which lets you do a really dumb down throw easy-mode techchase. This is best if they have a C4, as you only need a few regrabs until you can u-throw -> u-air -> c4 KO. Even if they don't have a C4, you can potentially do this up into the high 100% fairly easily (14% per grab plus pummels) and then tilt or aerial for a KO. 2. C4, as most opponents put up a shield when they see you jumping up to them, so you can C4 then punish their delayed reaction because they were expecting an attack with shieldstun.

In general: Defensive play will ruin any falcon's day. Snake's punishes can be massive, so let your opponent approach so you can unlock that potential. I think that your only real problem at this level is that you didn't play the matchup well. Your execution with Snake overall is pretty good. Keep it up and pay attention to characters' weaknesses!

 

[cisyphus]

Oh and I never replied to Sylarius:
1. I get uthrow-uair'd a lot because I'm trying to implement a new smash DI method. I'm not used to it yet and pay for it. I guess I shouldn't be doing it in tournament, though.
The rest of the Fox stuff is fair. I think I choke a lot in tournament, and KJH is kinda legendary in Michigan. Good comments all-around.

My Samus game plan is to shut down his stage control and win with my own, since it theoretically is more powerful. My familiarity with the opponent also factored in a lot. I'm starting to wonder if that's the best way of doing things, though. Ho hum. The f-tilt I'm not sure of the situation in particular, but if I did the second hit of it, I was probably actually going for f-tilt -> u-tilt, since that combos really easily on Samus.

 

[yink059]

thanks dude i appreciate it! i havent been playing smash competitively for a long time so im underdeveloped in a general sense and still have bad habits in the neutral/autopiloting atm

 

[LupinX]

Question for you guys. Is snake's boost grab useful? I'm not saying like replacing the jc one, just is it useful in certain situations example, if the opponant's far etc etc

 

[FlashingFire]

If the opponent has a low crouch (Kirby, Jiggs, other Snakes, etc), then JC grab can get ducked easily. Boost grab works better in these situations, though I have yet to effectively utilize it myself.

 

[cisyphus]

Snake's boost grab also reaches around 25% further than his dash grab, which has almost identical reach to a perfect JC grab, so yeah it's useful. It's nothing like Sheik's in usefulness (which gives twice as much distance and has some nuances with the hitbox locations), but nonetheless, it's pretty good. Here's a .rar of images of all three of Snake's grabs with various executions:Snake Grab Data

Contained is:
- Snake's JC grab cancelled after the first frame of his jumpsquat (giving the least possible distance)
- Snake's JC grab cancelled on the final frame of his jumpsquat (giving the most possible distance)
- Snake's dash grab w/ input on the fifth frame of his dash (this is frame 0 for all three grabs' inputs)
- Snake's Boost grab cancelled after the first frame of his dash attack (giving the least possible distance)
- Snake's Boost grab cancelled after the second frame of his dash attack (giving the most possible distance)

Note the background for a geometrical sense of reach. As an aside / point of reference, A DACUS cancelled on the second frame of dash attack reaches two additional squares to the left and is centered roughly between the fifth and sixth square. I'm curious of whether this variation occurs with DACUS as well (I'd imagine it does), but I can't successfully use frame-by-frame to get the first-frame input (c-stick input register please PMDT!)

Setting the scene:
1. Position Snake so that the tip of his toe is precisely on the seam between the purple and white tiles
2. Activate debug mode (L+R+d-pad down), freeze the screen (L+d-pad left) and activate hitboxes (R+d-pad right)
3. Dash left for five frames (using the start button to freeze the game and Z to advance one frame at a time)
4. Start the input on the sixth frame of the dash

Also, if anyone has a good free image hosting site, let me have it. I tried imgur, but it randomly rotates my images while uploading and I don't know how to stop that.

As ANOTHER aside: I've figured out that mines have a radius of roughly 2 squares (so it covers 4 square's distance total). It also seems slightly elliptical (hitting lower on the vertical axis), but testing the vertical while still having the visual aides of Training Room is difficult. Grenades and C4s seem to have the same horizontal range, so I assume they have the same vertical range as well. Probably gonna collect data on who gets hit by mines while standing under various platforms as well. Wanted to make a thread dedicated to all of this but it's convenient to answer it here. You'll find that last bit of data collection on my spreadsheet, of course.

EDIT:
C4 and Grenades DO NOT share hitbox data with mine. Tested on Puff under Battlefield's side platform:
Mine: Whiffs
Grenade: Whiffs
C4: Connects

meaning that there's a lot more to be done with this than I expected (so I'm giving up, but know C4 likely controls more vertical space)

 

[BND]

2 pictures that might help for grenades (not particularly interested in the mines and grounded C4s, unfortunately, since they're not an integral part of my gameplay):
http://puu.sh/gd9Uf/b930e74bb5.jpg (P2 was there to raise hitlag; P1 fell into the explosion)
http://puu.sh/gd9UX/818ca4407b.jpg (Sorta self-explanatory in terms of setup and reasoning)
A bit of testing a while back also shows that grenades are likely only active for 1 frame (extended by roughly 6 frames from hitlag), in case anyone was wondering.

 

[cisyphus]

VERY USEFUL INFORMATION THAT YOU SHOULD'VE SHARED A WHILE AGO.

Thanks BND

 

[Sylarius]

Alrightt. I played in a large monthly a week ago Saturday and placed 2nd, reaching GFs (beating Vash 2-1 in WSF, and Chris/lights, a player from a different province, 3-2 in WFs, but then losing to him 3-2, 3-1 in GFs). Vash got upset by a Ness player in LQFs and LFs ended up being Monkeybear and lights. lights 3-0'd him easily, and Monkeybear played marth in one of these games and I was totally not impressed. Vids haven't been uploaded yet but I'd love advice on those ones, specifically my matches with lights.



I played in a smaller weekly tournament on thursday and got 3-0'd, 3-0'd by Monkeybear's Marth in PM in WFs and then GFs. Played Snake 5 of those games total (went Ike the second game of the second set). Pretty much dominated the entire set. I'm really speechless. He seemed sleep deprived and I don't really know what I was doing - the first set I got spiked a ridiculous amount of times and was smarter about my recovery second set but I just got screwed badly. I'd really appreciate anything anyone has to offer regarding this matchup/these sets. I was so dominated... did I use tranq too much? Too many grenades? Neutral game is not good enough/threatening enough? Wavedashing nonexistent hurting me a lot?

Anyways, here's the sets. I had some others but I've spammed this thread with enough vids and none of them were really eventful (I was down 2-0 in LFs against a ZSS I had 2-0'd in WSF, but I smartened up and took it back 3-2).

http://www.twitch.tv/teamtacotv/b/630116441

06:14:05 WFs
07:07:35 GFs

I don't know if it's just me that is terrible at this matchup or if it feels as bad as it did that night. Considering using Ike for it (I play him in dubs) now but if anyone has any advice for me I'll gladly try to incorporate it into my next sets with him.

 

[cisyphus]

Marth is by far the hardest Snake matchup imo. I'm not sure if it's 100% matchup or if Marth's general status as the best character in the game** has something to do with it. He doesn't get combo'd easily by Snake, has way more range, juggles Snake easily, and basically edgeguards Snake for free. Basically: all of Snake's strengths get shut down by Marth and Marth's strengths aren't easily dealt with. I lose to Marth players that are worse than me more often than I care to admit. I think you just have to play extremely patiently with a lot of grenade pressure, stage control, and safe baiting options. Play a war of attrition and don't take a lot of risks.

**I include this because Marth frankly got a huge yet subtle buff in the transition from Melee to PM: the IASA frames on aerials in general are now cancelable by shield (so wavedash) and special inputs. This makes Marth's edgeguarding game ever so slightly more safe (back air, for example, can be interrupted by Up B 4 frames sooner than usual) and also makes his neutral and combo game all the more unorthodox given the general strength of wavedashing out of later aerials and the strength of side-b as a mixup/combo tool and neutral B as a DI mixup and edgeguarding option (again, available more quickly out of aerials due to the engine differences between Melee and Brawl). He's also been restored to Melee standard of excellence, where he's also top 3-5 in that game, while all other characters have received minor nerfs both directly (changes to moves) and indirectly (mechanical engine changes). Marth is incredibly fluid in PM and that's a scary thing for a character as rigid as Snake.

 

[FlashingFire]

If it helps, here's a set between me and Zinth, the best Marth player in my area. It's from 3.0 so don't add it to the OP, but I think the vast majority of the gameplay is still applicable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxkGJcfP_7k

A good chunk of the set is just me trying to get back to the ground after recovering high. It's really tough, but remember that grenade trades are in your favor in this MU. He did tell me afterward that the reason he ran into so many Dsmash mines was that he was trying to run up shield to detonate them, but hey, we take those.

 

[cisyphus]

idk, I feel like Zinth isn't terribly familiar in this match. Getting hit by that randy back throw fair shouldn't ever happen. You can see as well how easily marth can dair spike Snake—he goes really deep at 2:50 for it and survives because the Cypher hitbox cancels the endlag of down air.

The matchup seems to boil down to Marth winning the neutral relatively well, forcing Snake to depend on reads and punishes; therefore Snake has to maximize both of those to succeed. The other thing worth exploring is how viable downthrow techchases are. Knowledge necessary would be:
1. Roll length of Marth—back roll can be covered on reaction, forward roll probably can as well
2. Roll duration of Marth
3. Whether Marth is hit by f-tilt/jab for resets and mixups (he is not)
4. Whether those tilts/jabs can leave snake able to cover roll away (they can't cover anyone, I think)
5. Whether one can wavedash OOS (to cover getup attacks on reaction) and still catch the roll (testing needed)
6. How one might influence these factors (via platforms, ledges, etc.)

I'll be working on this during spring break this week. My Snake's been suffering lately (dropping games to people I shouldn't) so I need to go to the lab to refocus and reimagine my gameplay a bit.

 

[FlashingFire]

It was Zinth's first time playing me in months, so I gambled that he wouldn't be ready for the cheese Fair and it worked. No reason not to take advantage of that, but I agree that it really shouldn't work once your opponent is aware of the option.

 

[cisyphus]

Yeah, just seeking what I find to be necessary context. Not knowing how to play vs. Snake is a huge handicap.

 

[Sylarius]

Prof. Pro beat Mew2King's Marth at TBH4 pretty solidly iirc so there's some way to do it, wish I could watch that video again.

I'll probably be playing monkeybear on thursday so I'll post about how it goes. Still waiting on those monthly videos.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Prof. Pro beat Mew2King's Marth at TBH4 pretty solidly iirc so there's some way to do it, wish I could watch that video again.

I'll probably be playing monkeybear on thursday so I'll post about how it goes. Still waiting on those monthly videos.

There's still Professor Pro vs Fuzzyness

 

[cisyphus]

TBH4 was also 3.0 tho. Snake was a lot better then and Marth was marginally worse

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

TBH4 was also 3.0 tho. Snake was a lot better then and Marth was marginally worse

The changes don't even affect their neutral game and they're pretty similar to 3.02 too.

 

[Sylarius]

Aight, here's the videos for Smashkatoon. The only recorded sets were me in WFs and GFs, beating lights (bambi) in WFs but losing to him in GFs. He was the only person to come from outside the province and took first in every event there, both singles and doubles lol. I'm kinda bummed I lost to him in GFs since I was up 2-0.

After the sets I realized I had 0 knowledge of Sheik in PM since I have never played against one or watched one in PM and watched a minimal amount of M2K's Sheik in Melee. So any help regarding that is good too, but I'm mostly looking for advice that applies to my gameplay in general instead of specific matchup advice, if possible.

WF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEheKTtC0IE
GF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cMobDjLK4w


Also, the videos of me getting demolished by Monkeybear's Marth a week ago:

WF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP1Bf351D3E#t=22452
GF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP1Bf351D3E#t=25665

 

[cisyphus]

The changes don't even affect their neutral game and they're pretty similar to 3.02 too.

They really do tho. Poorer wavedashes hindered Marth's movement a lot more than it does Snake's, and Snake's invincible up B made a lot of Marth's shield pressure obsolete, making approaching in general dangerous, which is rough because marth gets so much off on his grabs. Snake had more range on his aerials, better recovery, and an easier time killing because of C4 having more knockback growth and a harder to DI angle. Snake's C4 sticks are also a lot more difficult because of increased grounded endlag and the inability to jump cancel aerial C4s. You can't play Snake as freely in 3.5 as you could in 3.02, and that changes how one would play the neutral by a lot.

 

[cisyphus]

Alright I got a couple for y'all:
http://www.twitch.tv/zerotodeath/b/633545710
1:17:45 sees my game 2 vs. Sophy playing Zelda. We actually went G&W vs Samus game one and I barely won, but we both switched after lol. I played the matchup more or less, and I think it's a good example of how to deal with Zelda. You'll see me intentionally attack the din's fire as a way to take control of when it's relevant. Besides that, I space myself out, DI the down throw behind Zelda to avoid any huge followups, and set up a lot of corner pressure with mines.
1:26:35 is my game 2 vs. Solharath, a high-level Sonic player. It's really just an example of how not to DI Sonic's up throw: DI out let Sol get all the followups he wanted. I feel like I also played really badly, missing a lot of tech and flubbing some easy followups, so meh.
1:51:34 is my set vs. Haru playing Marth. I feel like I started to play extremely well on my last stock of game one (hence the runback). My biggest problem during those two games was definitely my comfort level on the ledge—I missed a lot of sweetspots, which is really the only reason Marth f-smash should hit Snake there. Game three was... a bad idea. Don't go to FD. Ever.

I feel like I can definitely win the Marth matchup, but I have to work so hard that it's almost not worth it. :\

 

[BND]

Not going to make too many comments since I've been pretty busy lately, though a few things regarding the first and third sets:
Vs. Zelda:
I haven't played against Zelda enough to make a fair decision on this, but I don't think this is a good example of how most Snake vs. Zelda matches go about. Most Zeldas that I've seen have a semi-developed Sheik to fend off attempts at punishment after a transformation post-sticky, but the Zelda you played didn't transform at all. Moreover, they can get rid of stickies especially easily on Smashville, where there's a ton of area to camp and a moving platform.
That being said, I hate to make objective comments, but Smashville's a terrible stage--even worse than FD IMO, since I'm fairly confident in my ability to utilize Snake's recovery in general and FD helps with that--for Snake and should probably be your first ban. You only have 6 frames to recover from an accidental pineappling, grenade pickups become screwy on the moving platform (Shield -> grenade literally doesn't work half the time), and you can't utilize Snake's ability to recover from meteors/spikes at all.
(You might argue that Snake has similar problems for #2 on GHZ, but people don't fight on the platform as much as they do on Smashville's platform, grenades actually drop straight down and don't bounce when the platform's rising, and it opens up other options for Snake's mines.)

As for vs. Marth, as I've said earlier, his down airs aren't as devastating as the match makes them look. As long as you C4 before the spike comes out, you're probably safe. In fact, barring a fthrow -> fullhop dair, you shouldn't get spiked much at all.
Also, I think he was picking up on your habit of rolling away from grenades; it was getting increasingly obvious as the match went on. I believe that at one point he was literally walling you off and waiting for you to roll (Alternatively, I'm just biased when looking at Marth vs. Snake matches). In any case, not sure if that analysis is correct, but if you were playing against a fellow Snake main, I'm sure they'd shoot a tranq at you every time you pull out a grenade and shield.

 

[cisyphus]

How does camping influence c4? 3.5 removed its timer so that's not a problem. Additionally, Zeldas tend to avoid using Sheik in my experience—they're two very different characters, after all. So they would need a few different things while transforming to remove the C4:
1. Myself unable to detonate on reaction (which is possible and puts Zelda in a really bad spot—above me
2. Myself far enough away during hitstun to not recover and punish them after Transform ends
3. For both of these conditions to exist, but the chance of me dying not being possible—having a C4 on you is actually beneficial in this case due to lack of damage boosting strats (except grenade, which is really commital).

I understand your point, but I think you just haven't played the matchup quite enough, meanwhile I've got multiple local Zelda mains as well as experience playing against Rizner in pools at TBH4 (as well as sitting in on his lesson to a lot of those same local Zelda mains—shouts out to the lordy room).

As for Smashville, I'd say the argument of pineappling is true for any stage that lacks prominent walls—that includes great Snake stages like Lylat, Battlefield, and Norfair to some extent. That can also be remedied by b-reversing Cypher away from the stage if you're excessively close to such ledges—the grab box is pretty forgiving horizontally. A bigger problem I personally see is being able to sweetspot the ledge while avoiding the hitlag on moves like Fire Emblem forward smashes (which is possible, by the way—shouts out to Lordy for testing it with me). FD is an absolutely atrocious stage in some matchups, and I think that Zelda would be one such matchup.

See, everyone's told me that—even the marth mains—but you can just as easily (as marth) go for the dair, recover immediately from the dair because of the cypher hitbox, and then resume edgeguarding position. All that changes is that you're at a slightly higher percent while in the same situation as before. The saving grace is probably to walljump tech b-reverse cypher or tranq and then punish accordingly, but that's hard, lol. I've found preference in recovering high simply due to how much Marth has to commit to get anything.

I've definitely noticed that habit myself, but it keeps popping up! thank you. I need to figure a better option for those kinds of situations where I have a grenade and I'm shielding. Wavedash oos for when I don't hold it, and a glide toss when I do hold it is probably sufficient.

 

[Xyuza]

Good videos! Huge fan of Prof and Rolex.

 

[FlashingFire]

Had a smashfest last night; I streamed it and got some good footage recorded. I've seen very little footage of the Snake/Mario MU in 3.5, so this might be of interest to you guys:

SCG|FlashingFire (Snake) vs SCG|Stoks (Mario)

It's a series of 4-5 games. I'm particularly proud of the combo I got at the very end.

 

[Xyuza]

Awsome, very nice combo indeed!

 

[LupinX]

Quick question.. do you know which characters miss their grab upon Snake's crouch? Or that Snake misses if they are crouched/sleep?