smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Dooms]

Just to let people know. Powersaves released codes to unlock EVERYTHING. That includes all moves and equipment. A TO could easily spend 20$ on a powersave and use it on systems at the tournament. It only needs to be done once and boom you have everything unlocked. Might be a little time consuming early on but "Time Constraints" Really isn't a legit complaint.

I can confirm that this code does not unlock all equipment, but it does unlock all custom moves

Do with this as you will.

 

[guedes the brawler]

this whole thing would bring problems to the metagame. if this equipment is allowed, why not some of the others? i'm sure that, will become a frequent question.

let's be sincere: the games, melee inclued, weren't balanced around Lag cancelling. it's simply going to break the game, even if it makes it more fun the balance will take a hit, i am sure.

it's no diffferent from letting any other equipment, really. we'd need to regualte what can, or cannot be allowed, and that is going to be super troublesome to decide, to fiscalize (TOs) and to train for (players)



but if you do decide on just this one and it sticks, it's less troublesome to leave JUST that; none of that "get equipment to negate bonuses" bS. if we are making stuff faster, make it weaker like the equipment implies.

 

[EnthusedPanda]

this whole thing would bring problems to the metagame. if this equipment is allowed, why not some of the others? i'm sure that, will become a frequent question.

let's be sincere: the games, melee inclued, weren't balanced around Lag cancelling. it's simply going to break the game, even if it makes it more fun the balance will take a hit, i am sure.

it's no diffferent from letting any other equipment, really. we'd need to regualte what can, or cannot be allowed, and that is going to be super troublesome to decide, to fiscalize (TOs) and to train for (players)



but if you do decide on just this one and it sticks, it's less troublesome to leave JUST that; none of that "get equipment to negate bonuses" bS. if we are making stuff faster, make it weaker like the equipment implies.

I'm not sure if across-the-board balance is really a matter of prime concern to competitive players. *cough*Melee*cough*

 

[aethermaster]

I've been playing this damn game for over 80 hours already and I have not come across ONE single smooth lander (and I've been grinding for custom moves and all that so you can't say that I haven't been trying hard enough).

If that's not enough of a reason to say no to this, I don't know what is. There are only two conditions where I would personally consider it:
1. Nintendo releases it without added bonuses to Nintendo wifi like they do pokemon's mystery gift. Extremely unlikely but its Nintendo. They're known for doing some off the wall stuff.
2. A powersave. This still seems like a pain for TO's to get done and with everything else that would be setting up, if I was a TO i would find it extremely obnoxious and idiotic just because some of us feel that landing lag is too long (which is isn't. Charizard's short hop fair and nair both autocancel and he's a huge character soooooo why is this even an argument?)

Also have you seen Sheik? That woman PLAYS like a freaking melee character. Do we really need to make her anymore ridiculous than she already is? Just because you guys can't properly do falcon's knee doesn't mean we should start making life difficult for TO's

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

I think the problem is that my aerial approach in this game feels limited to using attacks that autocancel on a shorthop, or have very little landing lag. The disparity in landing lag is actually very odd for some moves. You have characters like falcon, where you don't even really have to autocancel the bair and uair and still have very little lag, vs. his knee or dair which basically you should never use from a short hop except in very specific scenarios because there's so much landing lag. Then there's characters whose aerials mostly autocancel, but if you ever do anyting other than short hop and immediately attack, the landing lag is really irritating. Pikachu comes to mind. Other than his uair, everything feels really really slow if you ever actually land during the aerial.

It just feels like this disparity makes the some characters even more restricted to certain moves. I'm all for increasing diversity in move usage, as well as just increasing options in gameplay in general.

Yes it is possible that this might make certain characters highly unbalanced, but you won't really know that until there's been a lot of testing going on. It was many months in brawl before meta knight was truly recognized as the broken machine he is. Balance is tricky to understand, especially when you take into account that this is a brand new game and we don't even necessarily know how balanced the vanilla game is.

 

[DarkKiru]

1. Nintendo releases it without added bonuses to Nintendo wifi like they do pokemon's mystery gift. Extremely unlikely but its Nintendo. They're known for doing some off the wall stuff.

Gonna be perfectly honest, this is the only way I could see it happening. Otherwise trying to do anything involving it would likely turn into a TO's worst nightmare come to life

Thats not to say there wouldn't be upsides to smooth landing (the game would play much more like its predecessor, what with less landing lag being available to all characters; and not necessarily a few with special tricks (E.g: Shulk who can negate most of his landing lag with neutral B, or his bair's lag if he cancels into nair due to IASA frames).

On the other hand, those like Sheik and ZSS could quickly become balance nightmares due to their already low lag becoming even lower.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Also I didn't read the entire thread post to post, so if you somebody already linked this, apologies

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2iux2m/aerial_landing_lag_with_smooth_lander_items/

that has frame data comparison of smoothlander vs. regular landing lag. I was originally getting the impression that smoothlander practically got rid of landing lag, but it's not the case. It's very similar to l-canceling. Falcon's knee for instance, goes from 30 frames to 20 frames. In general, it seems to be about one third reduction in lag (this isn't set in stone though. Some are more, some less, due to kind of strange rounding) This isn't game breaking.

Worries that characters with low lag will become even more powerful confuse me, as their reduction simply isn't going to be as noticable. Gaining a few frames of leeway won't be that huge for them. Gaining 10 or more for some other characters, on the other hand, is pretty significant.

It really does seem like nintendo's nod for a demand for l-canceling. I wish they'd included it as a full on option instead of this roundabout method, but I can understand why they didn't want to. I'm mostly just sad that this is yet another reason I wouldn't want to play online. Oh well. I really hope they release it as a statless gear for free or something.

 

[DarkKiru]

Worries that characters with low lag will become even more powerful confuse me, as their reduction simply isn't going to be as noticable. Gaining a few frames of leeway won't be that huge for them. Gaining 10 or more for some other characters, on the other hand, is pretty significant.

If thats the case yeah, theres really no reason to not do it (it doesn't get forced on anyone outside of competitive matches, since they'd be the only ones likely to use it, and even in competitive it would be completely optional depending on the TO or the wants of the competitors)

Still, I can only see it happening if we get some kind of smooth landing with no bonus stats given to us, which is of course not impossible; just unlikely.

 

[Shog]

[...]

Did you consider that you can use multiple Smooth Lander....

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Did you consider that you can use multiple Smooth Lander....

Has that actually been tested? I don't think I'd be on board with that being tourney legal. A reduction in lag is one thing, eliminating it altogether is another. If you had 0 landing lag on moves, attacking someone's shield would be entirely safe and for most characters guarantee a grab.

edit: as far as I can tell from searching the internet, it doesn't stack. There are a couple other equipment modifiers that might be interesting for comp play also. Dodgy dodger makes you vulnerable for more of dodges, there's one that makes you grip better and not slide as much during running turnarounds. I think ideally using all those equipment would be fun, but requiring players to have not only smooth lander, but variations of each of those equipment such that when you equipped them all your stat variation balanced out to 0 would be ridiculous.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Has that actually been tested? I don't think I'd be on board with that being tourney legal. A reduction in lag is one thing, eliminating it altogether is another. If you had 0 landing lag on moves, attacking someone's shield would be entirely safe and for most characters guarantee a grab.

edit: as far as I can tell from searching the internet, it doesn't stack. There are a couple other equipment modifiers that might be interesting for comp play also. Dodgy dodger makes you vulnerable for more of dodges, there's one that makes you grip better and not slide as much during running turnarounds. I think ideally using all those equipment would be fun, but requiring players to have not only smooth lander, but variations of each of those equipment such that when you equipped them all your stat variation balanced out to 0 would be ridiculous.

Some equipment modifiers do stack though. For example, First Strike Advantage stacks slightly, starting at 10s invincibility and then increasing by seemingly 3 or 4 seconds with each additional equip. So it's possible that Smooth Lander could stack as well, but I dunno if anyone's tested and I only have one Smooth Lander equip on my copy.

 

[W¡ndy]

You don't have any more movement options because of this equipment, you have the same options a couple of frames earlier. Don't make people believe this.

If you start using equipment to cancel lag on aerials you're unintentionally nerfing characters like peach, TL, link, greninja, ect... who have their own means of l-canceling. Suddenly their AT's are worth a fraction of what they where before, what gives all of you guys the right to do this to the meta and to everyone who plays those characters.

What gives us the right is simply that this equipment was programmed into the game.
Shouldn't metagame be shaped around how we apply outside information and tactics to inside information and tactics?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

What gives us the right is simply that this equipment was programmed into the game.
Shouldn't metagame be shaped around how we apply outside information and tactics to inside information and tactics?

no

 

[W¡ndy]

no

If we as the competitive community deem that this isn't balance breaking/ ruining the ability of the game to be competetive, then we have the right to allow it. There is no competetive scene without the meta.

Also, there isn't even a developed meta; The game hasn't even been out for a month yet.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I really want to try this equipment idk how to unlock it.

 

[Lukingordex]

 

[Dooms]

I really want to try this equipment idk how to unlock it.

You unlock it the same way you unlock all of the other equipment.

Get really freaking lucky. Which is why it won't be legal :D :D :D

 

[Prawn]

Nobody is talking about your right to use equipment in tournaments, host a tournament and have fun.


Realistically I don't see a lot of TOs doing the same though.

 

[Lukingordex]

You know, a TO who hosts a tournament to have "fun" doesn't usually gains a lot of respect (unless it's a side-event which is a different thing).

 

[Prawn]

You know, a TO who hosts a tournament to have "fun" doesn't usually gains a lot of respect (unless it's a side-event which is a different thing).

What are you even talking about?

 

[Prawn]

There's no official ruleset, now is the time to be creative and hold tournaments with whatever rules you see fit. If enough people like those rules then you'll have a following to support them

If everyone says your rules are bad then your rules are bad *shrug*

 

[Shack]

I think it should be up for trial. Anyone saying Gannondorf will be hard to kill going 3 attack items has not tried custom items yet. Even have -20 defense causes you to get launched as if you were Mewtwo from Melee. I think the most viable builds will be those that boost every stat instead of just focusing on one (but who knows, maybe going all attack/speed on Samus will make her broken).

As for the reduced landing lag item, you get it randomly through playing, I have one that I've had since one of my first run throughs, but don't think I can use it on everyone.

In a month we will be playing this game on WiiU, isn't it likely that we can have all the WiiUs used in tourneys with the landing lag items on them and already set up on custom characters to prevent people from have to grind to get equal items?

 

[Undrdog]

Read through the thread and I've just gotta point out the obvious. Anyone here that has any tournament experience knows that this is never going to happen. It's always good to discuss things of this nature, but all the hard counters to the proposal are getting ignored.

• Requiring people to have experience playing the game under abnormal circumstances never works. Even if it were to be come widely accepted in the Smash community, there will always be local players at tournaments that will be put off by this.
• A large portion of the community will never accept the idea of fixing something that isn't broken.
• Grinding has always been shown to discourage new players from becoming competitive.

We all know what's going to happen in the coming years. Someone is going to find a hack for Smash Bros Wii U and soon after the first modded versions of the game will begin development. We will certainly have a Project M: U at some point in the near future and it will likely coexist side-by-side with the vanilla game.

And if this is more about the 3DS version of the game, please keep in mind that the 3DS version will likely never be more than a side tournament. Yes people love it, but we all know the competitive future for Smash lies on the console.

 

[Agosta44]

Make a side tournament called "Project M4" and people will eat this up.

 

[Alex Night]

How about maining Sheik? Really small landing lag, combos and competitive potential.
You don't even have to grind in 1p modes. The first time you play the game it's already there.

ಠ_ಠ

Spoiler

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I've heard that smooth landing items stack. Meaning having more than one smooth landing decreases your landing lag even further.

Take that for what you will.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

No. Melee isn't perfect and it doesn't need to be like Melee. Lower landing lag, despite many being interested in it, does not inherently make the game more competitive or fun. The game was balanced with the mechanics it was balanced with; promoting air play by changing core mechanics will have dangerous side consequences on balance and gameplay.

There is no more reason to risk and commit to such a gamble and believe it will be a good thing than there is reason to keep playing the game as is and was intended. Not to mention further splitting the competitive community from the casual. Imagine trying to play smash bros with friends and some are used to playing it the right way and others insisting that the game is better with smooth landing equipment.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think it's worth a shot to try some of the equipment, or wait it out and see if there is an update.

I'm surprised more of the people here aren't open minded, since the whole competitive scene of smash derived from being able to use an unlockable option: turning off items . We customized the game to make it what it is today believe it or not.

It's funny, we are scrutinizing ourselves the way conventional fighting game communities have done to the smash scene years ago. Guess we aren't any better lol.

 

[M15t3R E]

I do not support this smooth lander equipment because it will certainly cause certain (probably most) characters to become VERY different- so different that the way to play them will not be similar to how it was before. It will change the entirety of the metagame in an instant. It could also cause some characters to become broken like MetaKnight in Brawl. My mind is still open though but we all would need extensive testing with the smooth lander equipment on all characters.

I think it's worth a shot to try some of the equipment, or wait it out and see if there is an update.

I'm surprised more of the people here aren't open minded, since the whole competitive scene of smash derived from being able to use an unlockable option: turning off items . We customized the game to make it what it is today believe it or not.

It's funny, we are scrutinizing ourselves the way conventional fighting game communities have done to the smash scene years ago. Guess we aren't any better lol.

Turning off items reduces the randomness of the match and promotes skill-based play. Banning equipment will do the same thing.

 

[themagicalcake]

Ok so the video released today helps smooth landing a lot, you can copy custom fighters onto the wii u so one person can get a perfect set of smooth landing equipment and just pass it around to everyone.

 

[Leebee]

exactly. I'd love to try out a smooth landing+dodgy dodger standard equipment (w/ customs now of course~) tourney. it sounds rad as hell.

Super Smash 4 Turbo!

also related: I'm curious if there are any of these equip effects in the "special smash" rules. would also be a valuable alternative.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Turning off items reduces the randomness of the match and promotes skill-based play. Banning equipment will do the same thing.

How? We already know what it does. It won't randomly allow you to L-Cancel. You'll just L-Cancel.

Also, low landing lag wasn't what made Meta Knight broken in Brawl, not by a long shot.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Sounds like another attempt to make Smash 4 play more like its predecessors, which we are more used to, instead of adapting and letting a new meta of strategies emerge.

Smash 4 looks like a game that was intentionally balanced so some aerials would auto cancel and others would not. If you want to change the physics by allowing just one custom equipment in because you'd prefer aerials some other way, you're drawing arbitrary lines. In fact I would argue you're adding to the rules in much the same way casuals are shunned for their honor codes.

I'm all for environments that allow equipments, don't get me wrong, but they should either be allowed in general or not allowed at all. This is ignoring the practicality of obtaining said equipment.

 

[Epok]

Sounds like another attempt to make Smash 4 play more like its predecessors, which we are more used to, instead of adapting and letting a new meta of strategies emerge.

Smash 4 looks like a game that was intentionally balanced so some aerials would auto cancel and others would not. If you want to change the physics by allowing just one custom equipment in because you'd prefer aerials some other way, you're drawing arbitrary lines. In fact I would argue you're adding to the rules in much the same way casuals are shunned for their honor codes.

I'm all for environments that allow equipments, don't get me wrong, but they should either be allowed in general or not allowed at all. This is ignoring the practicality of obtaining said equipment.

This is a good point. To be honest I think that the smash community is somewhat spoiled with melee. I also think it would be in bad taste to just allow the one equipment that allows for an artificial L-cancel.

But I think that what the equipment can do is really add depth to the game, as long as it's done correctly. I think it has the ability to not have a cookie-cutter competitive experience. To me that's boring. and a lot of that has to do with the competitive nature of players. Lot's of people follow what everyone else does to see what good. They look at meta games and tier lists to see what is the best strategy for winning instead of figuring out what works best for them. Custom moves and equipment are a chance to allow the player to fit a character that they enjoy playing and fit them to do what they need to do to fit their play style and still be successful. I think that is worth a shot.

What if we tried making a list of acceptable effects that are allowed for tournament play (maybe 10 or so), and then put a cap on the amount of a certain stat. So for instance you can only have up to +30 in attack, +15 in def, and +20 in speed?

Thoughts?

 

[Loki]

I got like the best of lucks and got myself a smooth landing protection badge... I can equip that thing to everyone. I can safely say that a lot of characters become much better. Palutena becomes a beast in the air, Yoshi evolves from combo-monster to Wombo-Combo-LOLvo, its ridiculosly sexy and good. Lucina becomes overall faster on her aerial-to-ground game and stuff.

Also, I've managed easily to moderate my stats by having all of them between -10 and 10 without much tweaking nor added effects.

I agree, smooth landing does not turns the game into melee but it sure adds another layer of depth as well as a speed factor that is healthy for both spectators and players. Again and as I've said before countless times... its not about making this game more Melee-ish, is about proposiing ways for the meta to evolve in a way thats intersting to boh casual, pros and spectators. Combos are still not insane (but are definetively better) and agressive gameplay is rewarded without hindering defensive gameplay.

 

[Shog]

Btw just want to say that Equipment is completly borken with smooth lander, because the higher you speed stat is, the less ending lag you have

@ Loki give this a shot: Put protection badge on someone who has a high endlag aerial move and put your best speed equipment on this person. That will definitely give you a" wtf this ****z borken moment"

 

[M15t3R E]

How? We already know what it does. It won't randomly allow you to L-Cancel. You'll just L-Cancel.

Also, low landing lag wasn't what made Meta Knight broken in Brawl, not by a long shot.

The person I quoted was advocating the use of a variety of equipment. I wasn't just speaking about smooth lander equipment.
Also, you are conflating two things I was talking about. I didn't say that Meta Knight was broken in Brawl due to low landing lag. He was broken due to having such safe and relatively powerful attacks. I said that low (or zero) landing lag might cause some characters to become as broken as Meta Knight was in Brawl, possibly by affording them combos that are incredibly easy and way too good, like an Ice Climbers grab to death except far, far easier. Can you imagine such brokeness? However, I'd like people to test smooth lander equipment to find out.

EDIT: Also, if you use smooth lander equipment then stats are altered. There is no way to get attack, defense, and speed all back to zero. And other people have confirmed that the smooth lander effect stacks, so are we going to promote using three pieces of smooth lander gear? If you do that then all three stats are dropped to about -11 or -12. I think we should just forget about it. Maybe at tournaments people can bring their 3DS and play each other with equipment. Or at best it could be a side event.

 

[Balgorxz]

I got like the best of lucks and got myself a smooth landing protection badge... I can equip that thing to everyone. I can safely say that a lot of characters become much better. Palutena becomes a beast in the air, Yoshi evolves from combo-monster to Wombo-Combo-LOLvo, its ridiculosly sexy and good. Lucina becomes overall faster on her aerial-to-ground game and stuff.

Also, I've managed easily to moderate my stats by having all of them between -10 and 10 without much tweaking nor added effects.

I agree, smooth landing does not turns the game into melee but it sure adds another layer of depth as well as a speed factor that is healthy for both spectators and players. Again and as I've said before countless times... its not about making this game more Melee-ish, is about proposiing ways for the meta to evolve in a way thats intersting to boh casual, pros and spectators. Combos are still not insane (but are definetively better) and agressive gameplay is rewarded without hindering defensive gameplay.

pretty much this, I wonder why people are having trouble able to get a balanced build for smooth lander to try and realize it makes the game more entertaining.
anyways I think smooth lander should be viable but not as an standard tournament, just like PM and brawl had their different tournaments, smash 4 can have it's competitive variations

 

[M15t3R E]

pretty much this, I wonder why people are having trouble able to get a balanced build for smooth lander to try and realize it makes the game more entertaining.
anyways I think smooth lander should be viable but not as an standard tournament, just like PM and brawl had their different tournaments, smash 4 can have it's competitive variations

I wouldn't mind seeing smooth lander equipment allowed at a side event. As you said, probably not as a main event.

 

[themagicalcake]

Since wii u saves are stored on an sd... Is it possible to just download a game save from the internet? If so, couldn't someone just upload a save with a perfect set of equipment with smoothlanding and then everyone uses that?