smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Loki]

Btw just want to say that Equipment is completly borken with smooth lander, because the higher you speed stat is, the less ending lag you have

@ Loki give this a shot: Put protection badge on someone who has a high endlag aerial move and put your best speed equipment on this person. That will definitely give you a" wtf this ****z borken moment"

I might as well then stack other smooth landings. The point is reducing the landing lag a little, not simply erase it. Also, speed stat affects overall movement, not only landing lag. Thats the beauty of the special effect... we can alter one specific mechanic without hindering greatly how the game functions. Thats also the point of balancing the stats as close to 0 as possible.

 

[Balgorxz]

Since wii u saves are stored on an sd... Is it possible to just download a game save from the internet? If so, couldn't someone just upload a save with a perfect set of equipment with smoothlanding and then everyone uses that?

Nope, but you can clone Wii U data tho so if someone gets a perfect and balanced equipment to all characters he can give the data to everyone

 

[Leebee]

honestly, a speed stat of something like +5 or +10 would be totally fine since it affects aerial movement as well. if balancing to exactly 0 is impossible, then I think that would be desirable. also: dodgy dodger makes dodging/rolls seem a lot more reasonable.

hopefully equipment does drop from sandbags so we can just do the old brawl custom stage grinder thing and let it go.

 

[Balgorxz]

damn I didn't knew agility stacks with smooth lander, my marth looks like from smash 4 turbo or something

 

[ShenanigansFox]

I really hope people find a way to get 0/0 equipment for both dodgy dodger, and smooth landing. This game could be so much better if it didn't consist of 3 tilts into neutral resets ad nauseum.

 

[Saito]

To make matters worse, this smooth landing isn't relatively easy to come across anyway.
I've done over 50+ smash runs with multiple people and this is my first time seeing it at all even while looking through the stuff my friends acquired

Small update to say that I still haven't found a single piece of equipment with Smooth landing on it.

It's been 25 days since the game came out.

The difficulty of finding this item is ridiculous.

 

[link2702]

bomb nintendo with emails letters and at events to release a patch to make it a standard effect for all aerials as opposed to just a piece of equipment you have to farm for.

 

[LancerStaff]

This will simply never happen. You can't force non-standard ways of play on people, and Nintendo won't go out of their way to add in something like +0 -0 SLe equipment to please Melee fans. Worst yet, if something like this were implemented the competitive playerbase will end up just as divided as this topic is. 'Tis an absolute pipe dream.

 

[Roxas215]

While i agree that its never gonna happen. Playing around with it it does make the game SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better. Right now the game is simply jab or tilt. run back or foward or roll. try to reset. repeat til u can land a killing smash attack.

Smooth landing makes approaching so much more viable and lends for way more mind games.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Good Lord Marth is broken with smooth lander whewwweww

 

[Overmaster]

bomb nintendo with emails letters and at events to release a patch to make it a standard effect for all aerials as opposed to just a piece of equipment you have to farm for.

Yes, spam Nintendo because a for-fun effect is not standard.

Do you guys not think Sakurai considered returning l-cancelling, or removing landing lag altogether? He made a conscious decision not to make this effect standard. Instead, he wanted it as something you could mess around with on Smash Run. I have lots of equipments with goofy effects-- stronger meteor smashing, higher double jumps, and yes-- a couple smoothlanders. Just because data exists in the game doesn't mean Sakurai accidentally put it in the wrong area.

Special Smash lets me have Bunny Hood all the time. Someone spam Nintendo until they make Bunny Hood default for everything because fast-paced is how I view the game should be zzzzz

 

[link2702]

Yes, spam Nintendo because a for-fun effect is not standard.

Do you guys not think Sakurai considered returning l-cancelling, or removing landing lag altogether? He made a conscious decision not to make this effect standard. Instead, he wanted it as something you could mess around with on Smash Run. I have lots of equipments with goofy effects-- stronger meteor smashing, higher double jumps, and yes-- a couple smoothlanders. Just because data exists in the game doesn't mean Sakurai accidentally put it in the wrong area.

Special Smash lets me have Bunny Hood all the time. Someone spam Nintendo until they make Bunny Hood default for everything because fast-paced is how I view the game should be zzzzz

never said he "accidentally put in the wrong area" i'm saying make it known to both nintendo and sakurai that players want this to be standard, and not part of a piece of equipment. this is something players have wanted ever since brawl removed it entirely.

 

[Redline!]

I can't believe people are entertaining this idea.

Even ignoring the frankly extreme logistical challenges involved in implementing this modification in a tournament setting...

Even ignoring that this modification is impossible to practice with/against in For Glory or Training Mode...

Even ignoring the ridiculously insular community this would create, and EVEN ignoring how arbitrary it all is...

Every attack in this game has SPECIFICALLY-CALIBRATED wind-up and cool-down conditions. Each instance of landing lag in the game is as vital a part of the game's balance as the windup to Ness's Fsmash, or Mario's weight. When you fiddle with landing-lag like this in an effort to make a "faster" game, the knock-on consequences are completely unpredictable! Whole matchups that haven't even been developed yet could be suddenly rewritten, right down to the apparent priority of colliding moves!

For god's sake, the game's been out for less than two months, and the "competitive scene" won't even begin to come into its own for at least six months following the Wii U version's release. And then it'll be another long while as everyone adjusts to Mewtwo, and whatever other DLC characters may come! And that's assuming no actual factual balance patches come down the pipeline!

You're meddling in God's Sakurai's domain, Davis-Lightheart. Quite frankly, you don't know what you're doing. None of you do.

 

[Overmaster]

You're meddling in God's Sakurai's domain, Davis-Lightheart. Quite frankly, you don't know what you're doing. None of you do.

This seems like a joke, but it's honestly the case that I'm trying to make. Sakurai designed this game with landing lag as a standard effect. This is clearly a fulcrum to the balance of the game and we definitely shouldn't be sliding it around. Make a new Project M if you want to futz with every tiny consequence of removing landing lag.

 

[Redline!]

This seems like a joke, but it's honestly the case that I'm trying to make. Sakurai designed this game with landing lag as a standard effect. This is clearly a fulcrum to the balance of the game and we definitely shouldn't be sliding it around. Make a new Project M if you want to futz with every tiny consequence of removing landing lag.

A joke? Not at all. Hyperbole, perhaps, but I'm totally in agreement with you. This stuff's beyond our freakin' plane of existence, much less our pay-grade. The game is what it is - a fixed system for us to explore, exploit, and enjoy. This whole concept is just bonkers.

 

[PlateProp]

I can't believe people are entertaining this idea.

Even ignoring the frankly extreme logistical challenges involved in implementing this modification in a tournament setting...

Even ignoring that this modification is impossible to practice with/against in For Glory or Training Mode...

Even ignoring the ridiculously insular community this would create, and EVEN ignoring how arbitrary it all is...

Every attack in this game has SPECIFICALLY-CALIBRATED wind-up and cool-down conditions. Each instance of landing lag in the game is as vital a part of the game's balance as the windup to Ness's Fsmash, or Mario's weight. When you fiddle with landing-lag like this in an effort to make a "faster" game, the knock-on consequences are completely unpredictable! Whole matchups that haven't even been developed yet could be suddenly rewritten, right down to the apparent priority of colliding moves!

For god's sake, the game's been out for less than two months, and the "competitive scene" won't even begin to come into its own for at least six months following the Wii U version's release. And then it'll be another long while as everyone adjusts to Mewtwo, and whatever other DLC characters may come! And that's assuming no actual factual balance patches come down the pipeline!

You're meddling in God's Sakurai's domain, Davis-Lightheart. Quite frankly, you don't know what you're doing. None of you do.

You can use custom movesets in training, and why the **** would you even practice in For Glory? That mode is garbage.

But hey, if you want to run around and tilt two or three times before having to run around again, have fun with that.

 

[LancerStaff]

You can use custom movesets in training, and why the **** would you even practice in For Glory? That mode is garbage.

But hey, if you want to run around and tilt two or three times before having to run around again, have fun with that.

But you can't give a CPU a SLer equip you don't have. If the only ones you have are character specific, you can't train against it without finding a player with said equipment.

 

[D-idara]

You can use custom movesets in training, and why the **** would you even practice in For Glory? That mode is garbage.

But hey, if you want to run around and tilt two or three times before having to run around again, have fun with that.

If you want to make a sarcastic remark about a game you clearly don't understand and apparently don't care about, have fun with that.

 

[Redline!]

You can use custom movesets in training,

My mistake.

and why the **** would you even practice in For Glory? That mode is garbage.

I don't know. Maybe because I, and so many other players, have rather limited access to other modes of play. For Glory certainly has its flaws and limitations, but it's a means by which ANY player can hone their skills against other actual human beings, without relying on oft-unreliable or -absent local groups or online "friends".

For Glory isn't "garbage". It's a flawed simulacrum of Competitive Smash that (netcode excepted, obviously) is most players' best opportunity to practice.

But hey, if you want to run around and tilt two or three times before having to run around again, have fun with that.

Oh, look at you, being all patronizing. Of course, you didn't address any of my OTHER criticisms of this hair-brained scheme, of which there were many. Not to mention that "running around and tilting" is a grossly inaccurate description of my experiences playing Sm4sh so far, including local tournaments. LOTS of gameplay still happens in the air. Loads of aerial attacks have fairly limited landing lag.

And ultimately, this is just yet another vainglorious effort to make Sm4sh more like Melee. News flash: Melee isn't some "Platonic Ideal of Smash Bros". It's a profoundly unbalanced game that, at a competitive level, demands levels of tech-skill and muscle memory that are totally incongruous compared to its actual control scheme. For all of Brawl's profound shortcomings in tota, removing L-cancelling and wavedashing was the right thing to do. Yes, they should have made running faster and reduced the landing-lag so as to make L-cancelling and wavedashing redundant, but the core principal behind removing them was sound.

Competitive Melee, while certainly fast and often visually impressive, is unintuitive and sterile. We should be reveling in the fact that Sm4sh has such a wide range of viable, intuitive playstyles, not pining for the alleged "golden days" of Melee. People need to grow up and move the heck on. Melee's still right there, after all.

 

[PlateProp]

If you want to make a sarcastic remark about a game you clearly don't understand and apparently don't care about, have fun with that.

I laughed at this

My mistake.



I don't know. Maybe because I, and so many other players, have rather limited access to other modes of play. For Glory certainly has its flaws and limitations, but it's a means by which ANY player can hone their skills against other actual human beings, without relying on oft-unreliable or -absent local groups or online "friends".

For Glory isn't "garbage". It's a flawed simulacrum of Competitive Smash that (netcode excepted, obviously) is most players' best opportunity to practice.



Oh, look at you, being all patronizing. Of course, you didn't address any of my OTHER criticisms of this hair-brained scheme, of which there were many. Not to mention that "running around and tilting" is a grossly inaccurate description of my experiences playing Sm4sh so far, including local tournaments. LOTS of gameplay still happens in the air. Loads of aerial attacks have fairly limited landing lag.

And ultimately, this is just yet another vainglorious effort to make Sm4sh more like Melee. News flash: Melee isn't some "Platonic Ideal of Smash Bros". It's a profoundly unbalanced game that, at a competitive level, demands levels of tech-skill and muscle memory that are totally incongruous compared to its actual control scheme. For all of Brawl's profound shortcomings in tota, removing L-cancelling and wavedashing was the right thing to do. Yes, they should have made running faster and reduced the landing-lag so as to make L-cancelling and wavedashing redundant, but the core principal behind removing them was sound.

Competitive Melee, while certainly fast and often visually impressive, is unintuitive and sterile. We should be reveling in the fact that Sm4sh has such a wide range of viable, intuitive playstyles, not pining for the alleged "golden days" of Melee. People need to grow up and move the heck on. Melee's still right there, after all.

Bro, I hate melee. But smash 4 can stand to be faster, you act like having no landing lag will break the game, when it wont.

The salt is real

 

[Redline!]

But smash 4 can stand to be faster, you act like having no landing lag will break the game, when it wont.

How the heck do you know? The game's not even two months old, we won't have a tier list for at least a year - hell, just factoring in C-Stick dynamics is going to have considerable impact on the burgeoning metagame.

Game balance isn't something you try to meddle with in this casual, arbitrary way. You're not being scientific. You've got a goal in mind (of making Sm4sh "faster"), but your methodology isn't sound, you've got no control-group because the Sm4sh metagame is in its infancy, and your proposed mechanisms are slapdash at best.

Not to mention that "smash 4 can stand to be faster" is a totally arbitrary statement. I'm not saying I disagree, strictly speaking, but you've got no evidence, no argument, and your desires are extremely subjective. There's nothing wrong with a more methodical game that rewards improvisation, mind-games, or other more abstract concepts rather than some nebulous definition of "speed".

What you're advocating is deeply flawed in multiple ways - conception, experimentation, AND implementation. When you've solved all three of those (which you won't, at least not for a very long time), get back to us.

 

[D-idara]

If you want to make a sarcastic remark about a game you clearly don't understand and apparently don't care about, have fun with that.

I laughed at this

I guess it worked.

I really don't want Smash4 to be faster, because it might turn into a broken mess like Melee.

 

[PlateProp]

How the heck do you know? The game's not even two months old, we won't have a tier list for at least a year - hell, just factoring in C-Stick dynamics is going to have considerable impact on the burgeoning metagame.

Game balance isn't something you try to meddle with in this casual, arbitrary way. You're not being scientific. You've got a goal in mind (of making Sm4sh "faster"), but your methodology isn't sound, you've got no control-group because the Sm4sh metagame is in its infancy, and your proposed mechanisms are slapdash at best.

Not to mention that "smash 4 can stand to be faster" is a totally arbitrary statement. I'm not saying I disagree, strictly speaking, but you've got no evidence, no argument, and your desires are extremely subjective. There's nothing wrong with a more methodical game that rewards improvisation, mind-games, or other more abstract concepts rather than some nebulous definition of "speed".

What you're advocating is deeply flawed in multiple ways - conception, experimentation, AND implementation. When you've solved all three of those (which you won't, at least not for a very long time), get back to us.

Your argument is falling on deaf ears

#stopthesalt

I guess it worked.

I really don't want Smash4 to be faster, because it might turn into a broken mess like Melee.

Smash 4 is going to end up broken more like brawl, Rosa2stronk and dem rolls

I do care about smash 4, but there are too many problems with the game (Rolls, air dodges, projectile spam, glitches, ect) for me to want to play it as it is now. Maybe once the patches start rolling out to address those problems I can play it more seriously

 

[Redline!]

Your argument is falling on deaf ears

#stopthesalt

Well I'm sorry that you apparently suffer from profound hearing loss, but that's not exactly a counterargument, is it? That's just sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "neener neener I'm not listening".

 

[ShenanigansFox]

Your argument is falling on deaf ears

#stopthesalt

Smash 4 is going to end up broken more like brawl, Rosa2stronk and dem rolls

I do care about smash 4, but there are too many problems with the game (Rolls, air dodges, projectile spam, glitches, ect) for me to want to play it as it is now. Maybe once the patches start rolling out to address those problems I can play it more seriously

Honestly if anything really ****s up smash 4 its going to be how strong defensive tech/playstyles still are, Rosetta & Chiko, and the lack of nintendo caring about competitive play. I cant stand how powerful it is to grab someone like DHD, samus, Link, etc and just throw out projectiles while running away. So many characters cant even deal with it because of their basic move sets not including a projectile. Smash 4 is going to be a game of Projectiles deciding how good the character is.

 

[PlateProp]

Well I'm sorry that you apparently suffer from profound hearing loss, but that's not exactly a counterargument, is it? That's just sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "neener neener I'm not listening".

It's more like I know you wont change your mindset on it and neither will I so i'm saving myself the trouble of arguing.

Honestly if anything really ****s up smash 4 its going to be how strong defensive tech/playstyles still are, Rosetta & Chiko, and the lack of nintendo caring about competitive play. I cant stand how powerful it is to grab someone like DHD, samus, Link, etc and just throw out projectiles while running away. So many characters cant even deal with it because of their basic move sets not including a projectile. Smash 4 is going to be a game of Projectiles deciding how good the character is.

Preach

 

[allshort17]

Honestly if anything really ****s up smash 4 its going to be how strong defensive tech/playstyles still are, Rosetta & Chiko, and the lack of nintendo caring about competitive play. I cant stand how powerful it is to grab someone like DHD, samus, Link, etc and just throw out projectiles while running away. So many characters cant even deal with it because of their basic move sets not including a projectile. Smash 4 is going to be a game of Projectiles deciding how good the character is.

Projectiles were all heavily nerfed from Brawl including: Diddy's bananas, ZSS's paralyzer, Olimar's Pikmin, Falco'Fox's Lasers, Mario's fireball, Link/Toon Link's arrows (bombs were buffed due to a glitch), Samus's charge shot, Pit's arrows, and Sheik's needles. The few characters still have a solid projectile game are purposely built like that and not even all of them are good. Mega Man is considered mid-tier at best, same for Samus, Robin is borderline high, and DHD is the only real example of a high tier "camper". Yoshi, Sheik, Lucario, and Diddy have fine projectiles, but are not top tier because of them but rather their ability to convert into combos and their footsies potency. This game is definitely not controlled by projectiles.

 

[ShenanigansFox]

Projectiles were all heavily nerfed from Brawl including: Diddy's bananas, ZSS's paralyzer, Olimar's Pikmin, Falco'Fox's Lasers, Mario's fireball, Link/Toon Link's arrows (bombs were buffed due to a glitch), Samus's charge shot, Pit's arrows, and Sheik's needles. The few characters still have a solid projectile game are purposely built like that and not even all of them are good. Mega Man is considered mid-tier at best, same for Samus, Robin is borderline high, and DHD is the only real example of a high tier "camper". Yoshi, Sheik, Lucario, and Diddy have fine projectiles, but are not top tier because of them but rather their ability to convert into combos and their footsies potency. This game is definitely not controlled by projectiles.

Even with projectiles nerfed, its still going to be deciding factors for a characters viability, unless they have a way to break through the opponents projectile game. lil mac can superarmor most of it along with a powerful counter, a god tier roll, and massive power on his hits so he can compete. Falcon has speed, massive air game, strong kill moves, and tons of options so he's well off enough without a projectile. Take someone like DK, Ganondorf, kirby, Ike, Nerfaknight, or Charizard. They cant compete with projectile game unless the player on them reads everything perfectly and responds with perfection. Its not brawl level of camp, but smash 4 is going to be brawl without RNG tripping and slightly less campy gameplay. Its already developed in that direction. Watch any tourneys or better player on it. 2-5 hit combo, reset to neutral, read, punish with another 2-3 hit combo or attempt to take the stock because of increased % knockback decreasing combos.

EDIT: Imagine yoshi with no more eggs, Shiek with no needles, Greninja without his shuriken. They would be nowhere close to top tier without the ability to play a neutral chase me game with projectiles. It takes out that player having to read well vs non projectile characters as they can shift the burden to the opponent on having to break through the runaway camp and spam.

 

[YoshiplayerX]

Anybody know the german name of the equipment?

 

[Shog]

Anybody know the german name of the equipment?

Agil nach landung

 

[YoshiplayerX]

I cheated all eqipment with powersaves but i dont find it

 

[Lenus Altair]

Brightcoat just took my criticism all the way to the next level with bluntness included.

Core point being, the game was balanced with landing lag/specific cool downs. Taking them away would shift the game in ways none of us could clearly comprehend and the end result would not inherently be good, fun, or competitive.

 

[Muro]

Core point being, the game was balanced with landing lag/specific cool downs.

wow didn't know one of the devs posted on these forums, how's sakurai doing?

 

[Lenus Altair]

wow didn't know one of the devs posted on these forums, how's sakurai doing?

It's called common sense. Don't need a degree in game development or to be sakurai's intern to know that.

 

[Muro]

It's called common sense that sakurai balanced the characters to work in a 1v1 3-stock 8 min matches with no items and no equipment and no custom moves? because iirc he said exactly the opposite. lol at ppl in this thread thinking sakurai does anything for the competitive community.

 

[Shog]

It's called common sense that sakurai balanced the characters to work in a 1v1 3-stock 8 min matches with no items and no equipment and no custom moves? because iirc he said exactly the opposite. lol at ppl in this thread thinking sakurai does anything for the competitive community.

Did you try it out, Smooth Lander? With Speed Equipment or without it? I mean some characters get craaazy buffs with it.

 

[Muro]

no I didn't try it. It's my understanding that smooth lander scales with the number of landing frames on a given move. Which means suckier characters suck less. My point is, smooth lander is not some "out of the game" thing, it's part of the game and the game wasn't any more balanced to work without the smooth landing item than it was with it. You're saying some characters get some crazy buffs with it? I could say some characters get crazy debuffs without it.

This is all useless talk without a way to unlock/distribute it though. which is the best argument against it thus far.

 

[Lenus Altair]

It's called common sense that sakurai balanced the characters to work in a 1v1 3-stock 8 min matches with no items and no equipment and no custom moves? because iirc he said exactly the opposite. lol at ppl in this thread thinking sakurai does anything for the competitive community.

I don't seem to mention anything about 1v1 3 stock 8 minute matches. What I said was:

Core point being, the game was balanced with landing lag/specific cool downs.

Which regardless of the context of said balance (FFA, 1v1, etc...) is a TRUE statement.

If you're trying to say that Sakurai balanced the game with a non competitive ruleset in mind, that is also true. But the idea behind this thread was "What if we just add this ONE piece of equipment to the competitive rules we use?"

All the reasons I have seen supporting the idea are arbitrary and out of personal preference as opposed to creating a competitive ruleset to test our skills with the characters and game physics as given to us. This makes it a side/separate event. Additionally all the claims so far about how it would make the game better/more interesting/more option filled are baseless or come from such a small smidgen of data it might as well be baseless.

 

[Muro]

I don't seem to mention anything about 1v1 3 stock 8 minute matches. What I said was:

Which regardless of the context of said balance (FFA, 1v1, etc...) is a TRUE statement.

as much as it was balanced with items and equipment in mind...

If you're trying to say that Sakurai balanced the game with a non competitive ruleset in mind, that is also true.

I'd just like to take the time to agree with you here friend.

But the idea behind this thread was "What if we just add this ONE piece of equipment to the competitive rules we use?"

is that any different than changing the status of a stage from neutral to counterpick. What's the difference here?

All the reasons I have seen supporting the idea are arbitrary and out of personal preference as opposed to creating a competitive ruleset to test our skills with the characters and game physics as given to us.

It's as arbitrary as any other rule we have come up with. This is exactly my point, playing with smooth lander on is as part of the "characters and game physics as given to us" as anything else. The only questions we should ask is "would it benefit the metagame? Is it possible to implement?". I'd say yes to the first and sadly no to the second.

This makes it a side/separate event. Additionally all the claims so far about how it would make the game better/more interesting/more option filled are baseless or come from such a small smidgen of data it might as well be baseless.

again, you could say the same about the game without the smooth landing item.
my main point is, there is no standard way to play the game, we make the rules, and we should make them the best we can.

 

[Redline!]

as much as it was balanced with items and equipment in mind...
The only questions we should ask is "would it benefit the metagame? Is it possible to implement?". I'd say yes to the first and sadly no to the second.

Why would you "say yes to the first"? What empirical evidence exists to support your radical notions?