Smashing Grounds to the Future! 3

[Tink]

rofll...i still cant believe ppl are complaining about these stages -_-...learn to play them and get over it....if your too new school and havnt played on these stages, maybe you can now see why peach/jiggs were getting owned before, rather then the 5 stages we use now -_-.

FC's were like the besttt tournament, and they used a neutral 11...get at thattt random list.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

false these rules are dumb. that was in the past, if you guys wanna try and be good like the coasts then you gotta play their stages. by using these stages you are improving yourself in an isolated environment, and really limiting yourself.

Lets be honest, we know these stages are just a guinea pig for sveet to try out his ideas. Too bad, the community has already chosen. Get with it or get left behind.

 

[slomo431]

i'll come to this

 

[Little England]

Wait...I don't get it. Peach/Jigglypuff were getting owned before, but now they aren't because we play on less stages? How does that support your position Tink? Anyone who cares about getting better would almost NEVER play on a predominately banned stage. What's the point? It's such a waste of time. >_> The only excuse to play on them is if you are playing your little sister..lol

The fact that you support the stages, leads me to believe that you are comfortable at the skill level you are at Tink (this makes me very sad so please prove me wrong), and the same goes to anyone else who is supporting these stages.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

"Getting better" takes more than repeating the same thing on flat, 3 platform stages for hours. Just because CP stages involve different strategies doesn't mean you shouldn't learn to play on them or that someone shouldn't be able to play on them simply because they are different.

 

[Dart!]

Wait...I don't get it. Peach/Jigglypuff were getting owned before, but now they aren't because we play on less stages? How does that support your position Tink? Anyone who cares about getting better would almost NEVER play on a predominately banned stage. What's the point? It's such a waste of time. >_> The only excuse to play on them is if you are playing your little sister..lol

The fact that you support the stages, leads me to believe that you are comfortable at the skill level you are at Tink (this makes me very sad so please prove me wrong), and the same goes to anyone else who is supporting these stages.

he's not talking about the number, he's talking about the quality of the stages fyi.

low ceiling/side blast zones and other things like that.

 

[Tink]

what dart said......while i agree that no other coast plays on them, and we wont be able to even counter them in tournament, its still bogus that there was no reason to get rid of these stages to begin with....just what tournament organizers wanted...and now, ppl dont like to play on challenging levels that are out of the norm....i got alot more johns, but this isn't really a discussion about why stages are banned for no reason -_-.

and i wouldnt think playing atleast once a week with top level chicago players makes me seem like im slowing down on my smash growth lolll....i like to have fun with the game is all.....attt this tournament, if it comes down to me and kels, i would be picking all nuetrals anyway, but its still fun to play the other stages throughout the tournament. specially in teams.

 

[Dart!]

i don't like the mindset of "oh you picked peach's castle, you're giving up aren't you?"
or "brinstar? that stage is lame, its all about fighting the stage and not your opponent"

to me, this screams not picking the stage to win...just because some people look down upon it.
that sounds like johns to me.

 

[Little England]

"Getting better" takes more than repeating the same thing on flat, 3 platform stages for hours. Just because CP stages involve different strategies doesn't mean you shouldn't learn to play on them or that someone shouldn't be able to play on them simply because they are different.

wow I can't believe this post...

1. Why is getting better in quotations?
2. You are absolutely correct. Getting better does take more than repeating the same thing on flat 3 plat stages for hours. If requires a conscious effort and intent to improve, which is best performed ON NEUTRAL STAGES.
3. Certain stages involve different strategies, and others either have a random factor or can be exploited. I don't have a problem with the former, it's the ladder that gets me. Dreamland and Yoshi's Story are VERY different. If you can't agree with this then I have no idea what to tell you...

he's not talking about the number, he's talking about the quality of the stages fyi.

low ceiling/side blast zones and other things like that.

I see, but that still does not clear up anything.

The whole goal of playing on neutrals is to take out the random element. If there is a stage that has a random factor or any particular quality that extremely favors any particular character then I think it should be banned.

 

[darkatma]

I dont mind the stage list. All it means is whoever wins the first game will likely win the set.

btw sveet you have 1 more spacey stage than floaty stage on the singles CP, you should see about tweaking that a little.

Also I'll ask stl if anyone is willing to drive the 5 hours it takes to get there. If so, we'll attend

 

[ORLY]

I may not like the stagelist, but Falcon backs down from nothing.

 

[Little England]

I dont mind the stage list. All it means is whoever wins the first game will likely win the set.

Is that not a problem? Why have CPs at all then?

 

[Tink]

roflll...what?!?!? even in the other stage list, the player that wins first, always has the best chance of winning -_-....adding more stages doesnt change this at all.

hmm...im going against a peach, mute citys on, so i ban mute city -_-...its that easy. no easy win for you atma .

 

[Dekuschrub]

lol this thread is hilarious

and atma is easily beaten on mute

 

[darkatma]

false and false
banning mute leaves me with nice things like brinstar

I won't lose on mute!


does anyone else type falco instead of false by accident?

 

[Tomacawk]

I dont mind the stage list. All it means is whoever wins the first game will likely win the set.

btw sveet you have 1 more spacey stage than floaty stage on the singles CP, you should see about tweaking that a little.

Also I'll ask stl if anyone is willing to drive the 5 hours it takes to get there. If so, we'll attend

I am willing to go, but we aren't using my car. I can also (reluctantly) help with the driving.
Also major gas$ johns means I can chip in some gas money but probably not my fair share. If you have an extra seat, may as well take me anyway, mirite?
I have a job interview tomorrow morning, so this may change.

 

[Little England]

Likely to win the set and having the advantage or best chance of winning are exclusive to me. lol I tend to read everything for exactly how it's written, so I may have missed your intentions.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wow I can't believe this post...

1. Why is getting better in quotations?

because it is a very subjective concept and could have many many meanings.

2. You are absolutely correct. Getting better does take more than repeating the same thing on flat 3 plat stages for hours. If requires a conscious effort and intent to improve, which is best performed ON NEUTRAL STAGES.

Why does it require neutral stages? If nothing else, a dynamic stage is a better learning environment for spacing than a static one.

3. Certain stages involve different strategies, and others either have a random factor or can be exploited. I don't have a problem with the former, it's the ladder that gets me. Dreamland and Yoshi's Story are VERY different. If you can't agree with this then I have no idea what to tell you...

Please tell me which stage in the list you believe has a random factor that effects the outcome of the game or has an unbeatable strategy.

If you're referring to peach's castle, i would agree (in singles) which is why it is only on for teams.

Corneria's random element barely effects the match, and while walling is good it is not unbeatable and neither is the camping since there is always potential conflict in passing.

Mute city has almost no random element and please let me know if you find a broken strategy on that stage.

Personally, i have arguments to DK64's legitimacy because of camping strategies revolving around spacies and peach staying above reachable areas for most characters.

 

[Tink]

honestly, im just being an *** hole about it heh......i could care less which stage list we use, ever.....but it would be fun to play with these cool stages, we dont use anymore :/.

 

[Little England]

Getting better means, advancement in skill level of competitive melee. I don't know what else you could have thought it meant in the context of this discussion...

I clearly said the process of improvement is "best performed" on neutral stages. I believe you are right though, it is POSSIBLE to learn on janky stages. It's only a theory to me though, because nobody else has done it in the past.

Brinstar all though not random does heavily favor Peach and Puff. The hazard of the predictable lava can be debated as viable or not. I personally don't favor it because of the point at which the lava covers the whole stage except the top platform.

Corneria has the arwings. These are very random and have proven to be very hazardous in past tournaments. Why even have the possibility of that threat in tournament?
0:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeRaDqKGkN0&feature=related
other characters have various stalls and ways to camp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvAL5YTWsII

Mute City is the same deal as Brinstar. The random element of the cars is not when they are coming, but where they are coming. This also is another case where I say, why have the random factor at all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Under your criteria, yoshi's story and dreamland would not only be non-neutral but would be banned altogether. i've been comboed into a kill move because of shy guys where my DI otherwise would have gotten me out. On dreamland, I lose my edge traps when the wind starts blowing and moves me out of position. Oh and fountain with those random moving platforms would definitely have to be banned.

You fail to realize that all rulesets involve a certain leniency in randomness. The ships on corneria aren't a game changing issue. Neither is where the cars come from on mute city. Cars come, you jump/roll/shield.

As for corneria, you'd be much better off arguing it should be banned because of camping strategies from ness and YL.

edit- oh yea

Getting better means, advancement in skill level of competitive melee. I don't know what else you could have thought it meant in the context of this discussion...

But how do you define that? How do you rate people's advancement in skill? Can you put a number to their patience or their spacing? Can you even list a set number of skills that are tested for in the metagame?

 

[Dart!]

As this goes on it looks to be more of a battle of opinion than fact.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My criteria for this ruleset:

Neutrals are flat, 2 edged stages.
Stages are banned if they are competitively unfair (see my sig for a definition).
Stages are allowed for counterpick as long as they are not banned.

 

[Dart!]

Well IMO if someone is confident in themselves then they shouldn't have to worry about the stages and more about matchups pools their bracket etc. I still think we should try two bans at this though

 

[Oro?!]

Mute City is the same deal as Brinstar. The random element of the cars is not when they are coming, but where they are coming. This also is another case where I say, why have the random factor at all.

Mute City's cars are on a set timer, and do the same thing every match. Brinstar's lava has a set pattern, but the times on the lava occurrences are more random?

By the random logic, Mute City is less bannable than Brinstar.

Corneria is dumb. Peach's is dumb. I don't care about infinites, or even the guns on corneria, I hate the seperation that can potentially stall conflict.

Edit: Sveet, we view stages in a similar way, but I am still slightly more conservative. The ability to stall or avoid conflict is ban worthy imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The only way to avoid conflict on corneria is really if both players choose to not fight. There is no circle to the stage (even less so than dreamland and dk64 where the top platforms form a circle) so in order for one player to actually run away the whole game, they would have to run under or over the opponent which is obviously beatable by simply putting a hitbox in that location.

 

[Oro?!]

Imo, 2 people playing to win by any means necessary, would just sit and not initiate conflict, until the situation requires it to be so, i.e. the clock running low and you are behind.

 

[Quaz]

idk about this tourney, I admit I'm completely biased as a peach player but it's going to be lame to be CP'd to Corneria/Peach's castle. I don't see her doing well on those stages at all.

I still don't think Im gonna be able to make it regardless though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

PEACH'S CASTLE IS ONLY ON FOR DOUBLES

l2read quaz

also, if you have a problem with a stage, you have a ban >_>

 

[Mundungu]

Why doesn't someone just post a link to a stage discussion thread in here to save everyone a ton of time.

 

[Little England]

But how do you define that? How do you rate people's advancement in skill? Can you put a number to their patience or their spacing? Can you even list a set number of skills that are tested for in the metagame?

oh god...lmao!

Mute City cars don't drive across the same parts of the stage every time they pass. That's the point I was getting at Oro.

 

[Oro?!]

Eh, it was still my favorite CP back when it was used, and I actually memorized what part the cars came on, and on what lap. I figure that took my knowledge of the stage, just like it takes stage knowledge to know Falco side B ledge cancel points. That's all I was getting at.

 

[Quaz]

if mute city is gonna be a counterpick Im going to use it ALL day. remember that kids.

 

[Oro?!]

Doesn't matter, your Peach is free.

 

[Dart!]

Quaz are you gonna rage everytime someone combos you off the cars? LOL at a tourney about two weekends ago some peach cped me there and was three stocking me then i pulled a comeback by getting two gimps and a zero death from the cars LOL

 

[Tomacawk]

why does everybody talk so much **** to quaz? I bet if you try to piss him off he'll get over his (alleged) anger issues......

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Go for it luke. Last time he kicked a window, this time it can be your face

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Midwest **** talks. That's what we do.

 

[Oro?!]

why does everybody talk so much **** to quaz? I bet if you try to piss him off he'll get over his (alleged) anger issues......

Quaz knows I love him, no homo.

 

[Dart!]

why does everybody talk so much **** to quaz? I bet if you try to piss him off he'll get over his (alleged) anger issues......

I'm pretty sure (almost sure) quaz knows we're messing with him in a good way. Remember it's the boards, where nothing is more rewarding than people giving you om nom noms