Smash Wii U Gets a "Call To Arms"

[Leland527]

And thats a prime example of how obnoxious melee die hards can be, if the game lacks one thing present in melee, you demonize it as a terrible game. There are other ways to win, you dont need to rely on stale technique(wavedashing, which is a glitch)

That is not what he is doing at all. What he is saying is that the lack of offensive options (the lag buffer) and the plethora of defensive options (shield, air dodge and iirc roll - didnt like sm4sh enough to stick with it for more than a month - come out frame one) it is inherently a more defensive game. The absolute lack of hitstun creates no combos, thats a fact, you can airdodge out of everything past 1-2 hits. It simply is a far slower more defensive game. Personally I prefer fast gameplay with room for creativity but if you like the sluggish defensive gameplay of smash 4 be my guest and play your game but don't you dare try to oust us because you want to play your game, we don't do that to you and we have a good game (ooo shots)... But seriously to each their own if you like smash 4, so be it but don't criticize the other games.

 

[KyroChao]

That is not what he is doing at all. What he is saying is that the lack of offensive options (the lag buffer) and the plethora of defensive options (shield, air dodge and iirc roll - didnt like sm4sh enough to stick with it for more than a month - come out frame one) it is inherently a more defensive game. The absolute lack of hitstun creates no combos, thats a fact, you can airdodge out of everything past 1-2 hits. It simply is a far slower more defensive game. Personally I prefer fast gameplay with room for creativity but if you like the sluggish defensive gameplay of smash 4 be my guest and play your game but don't you dare try to oust us because you want to play your game, we don't do that to you and we have a good game (ooo shots)... But seriously to each their own if you like smash 4, so be it but don't criticize the other games.

I'll assume you missed my post were i said i thought melee was superior aswell, lol

 

[Code Bread]

2. I have no intention of arguing with anybody, I don't do it at all in fact.

I think I could get you into an argument as to whether or not your definition of "argument" is too loose.

Like I said, you came across as saying "Leave it alone and don't feed the fire". That's the worst solution we should do; it doesn't compliment ambition and risk. Everything that's ever happened is because people are motivated to be productive. 100 years ago, you never would have imagined anything like the Civil Rights Movement to come to fruition. (Extreme example, but I digress)

An extreme example indeed. We aren't suing coal mines for health violations here. There's a difference between "leave it alone and don't feed the fire" and "leave it alone and make a nice bowl of soup about it so you can share with everyone." This isn't a fire and this isn't a civil rights movement. People should be capable of discussing their opinions about a video game while still understanding that other people will disagree with their opinions, and not have to fall into the same argument literally every time it happens.

Also, you're in no position to say that I, or somebody else can't dissuade anybody; that's a pretty thick accusation.

lol Melee/sm4sh diehards don't get dissuaded, bro.

3. I'm going to disagree with this... This is the kind of toxic ideology we should NOT have. And I did say we should grow as a community, I don't know how you thought I was encouraging the opposite. Why should my words be shunned?

I don't even know where this is coming from. I'm only talking to you because you're upset that I'm expressing my opinion about people expressing their opinions (understandably :/). I'd only shun your words because they seem confused and they're confusing me.

Then who are we going to listen to? Yeah people may have heard what I've said before, but what of it?

Listen to the people who say "your opinion is fine as your own, please don't try to force it on us." Please explain to me how everyone arguing about the same thing all the time is better than that. And I'm not sure if I've heard what you've said before, because like I said, I don't understand what you're saying.

Strength in numbers bud, it's how stuff gets done.

What exactly are you trying to get done here?

I'll put my words out if I want, and you may either use it or toss it- there's literally no harm in expressing yourself, and it's unhealthy for people to bottle it up.

There is harm in expressing yourself if it's at the expense of healthy conversation. And don't tell me that people expressing themselves is healthy, because all it does is get a lot of people mad, including themselves.

I happened to really connect with this bit of news, so I wrote what I thought, 'nuff said.

Nuff said, indeed. Nobody said anything about what you said. You responded to my post, remember? What I said had nothing to do with your post.

Do you honestly care that much that so many people rage about something in the comments?

Yes. I come here to have discussions about the glory that is smash. Instead everyone insists on taking the ugliest parts of our community and throwing it everywhere. Is it wrong of me to not want to see every thread polluted with trolls and manchildren?

It's everywhere, not just here, and there will always be a new issue that may irritate us.

So what you're saying just because something is a regular occurrence, everyone should be okay with it? That sounds like the opposite of your civil rights statement. By the way, that "issue" you're talking about is (I think) people not being able to objectively express their opinions. Tell me why that should ever be an issue in the first place.

I was glad to read the many modest replies in this thread, the more provincial speakers aren't gonna dissuade a lot of us from posting or scrolling through the comments.

What was the point of this statement? I don't actually know what "provincial speakers" you're referring to.

if many of us really want to change or promote our game in order to grow, then it can happen.

I don't understand what you mean by "change our game", or "promote our game" and I don't see how either are related to personal growth.

I don't see how the subject can both become more sensitive and stale, to me that sounds like it would become both fresh, and hackneyed, which are mutually exclusive.

The subject will either become more sensitive, which will basically be this thread only a little worse, or it will become less sensitive and it will become just another "Brawl's viability" thread. Either way, I'm not actually sure that it could become more stale than it already is, so I guess stale was a bad choice of words.

I don't intend on wasting anymore of your time, so I think I'll end it here, because I don't intend to start a flame war or offend anybody with my keyboard.

I waste my own time by checking Smashboards, so that's my fault. But given how confusing your posts are, I don't think you could offend me anyway, so it's gg.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i would like to quote or critisize some posts, but i just don't feel like it or want to do it anymore.

What's the point when no matter how much you try to explain something or give out your opinion, there's always going to be someone who will call you out and say "you're wrong" or anything like that.

People disagreeing i don't mind, but i'm just facepalming at how this thread became a huge argument/flame war (well more like arguing i should say) when it wasn't supposed to be like this.

I'm not going to explain what i said before again. Read my earlier post to see my expressions.

 

[Javln Mastr]

I think I could get you into an argument as to whether or not your definition of "argument" is too loose.

An extreme example indeed. We aren't suing coal mines for health violations here. There's a difference between "leave it alone and don't feed the fire" and "leave it alone and make a nice bowl of soup about it so you can share with everyone." This isn't a fire and this isn't a civil rights movement. People should be capable of discussing their opinions about a video game while still understanding that other people will disagree with their opinions, and not have to fall into the same argument literally every time it happens.

lol Melee/sm4sh diehards don't get dissuaded, bro.

I don't even know where this is coming from. I'm only talking to you because you're upset that I'm expressing my opinion about people expressing their opinions (understandably :/). I'd only shun your words because they seem confused and they're confusing me.

Listen to the people who say "your opinion is fine as your own, please don't try to force it on us." Please explain to me how everyone arguing about the same thing all the time is better than that. And I'm not sure if I've heard what you've said before, because like I said, I don't understand what you're saying.

What exactly are you trying to get done here?

There is harm in expressing yourself if it's at the expense of healthy conversation. And don't tell me that people expressing themselves is healthy, because all it does is get a lot of people mad, including themselves.

Nuff said, indeed. Nobody said anything about what you said. You responded to my post, remember? What I said had nothing to do with your post.

Yes. I come here to have discussions about the glory that is smash. Instead everyone insists on taking the ugliest parts of our community and throwing it everywhere. Is it wrong of me to not want to see every thread polluted with trolls and manchildren?

So what you're saying just because something is a regular occurrence, everyone should be okay with it? That sounds like the opposite of your civil rights statement. By the way, that "issue" you're talking about is (I think) people not being able to objectively express their opinions. Tell me why that should ever be an issue in the first place.

What was the point of this statement? I don't actually know what "provincial speakers" you're referring to.

I don't understand what you mean by "change our game", or "promote our game" and I don't see how either are related to personal growth.

The subject will either become more sensitive, which will basically be this thread only a little worse, or it will become less sensitive and it will become just another "Brawl's viability" thread. Either way, I'm not actually sure that it could become more stale than it already is, so I guess stale was a bad choice of words.

I waste my own time by checking Smashboards, so that's my fault. But given how confusing your posts are, I don't think you could offend me anyway, so it's gg.

GG too lol. This would certainly run in circles so we'll just end that here. Hope you have fun playing regardless

 

[Streetwize]

I keep hearing that the people that have problems with different games are supposed to be the vocal minority. People get so wound up that I have some difficulty telling who's legitimately arguing or being a *****. I don't even know why I decided to read through all these posts; I'm not even on this forum for ANY of the Smash games as a game tester. Why should I care honestly? I guess my love for SSB and my interest in competition get the best of me.

I will defend Smash 4 being less technical, but that does not automatically make it a better game. There are still design flaws that overcome the game. I could live without L-canceling and wavedashing if the game still felt like Melee, but that's not the case with Smash 4. Also, would Smash 4 players like it if Melee players called their techniques like perfect pivot and RARs exploits and "unintended" because it wasn't on Melee and? Melee players are smart enough not to be hypocrites about that though. Even DACUS was a thing shortly in Smash 4 from Brawl yet Nintendo fixed it. There was a balance patch that fixed Rosalina, yet people found a new gimmick with Diddy Kong afterwards. With no balance patches potentially being made, players are forced to do what old fighters have had to do for years: adapt, and find a way to work around it. Melee had to do it with many characters over the ages, and Brawl had to work around MK. This kind of thing is not rare in fighting games as they become developed. Who knows? Maybe there is a solid counter for Diddy waiting to be awakened. Personally here's to hoping the roster gets rebalanced when Mewtwo comes in as balancing a single character around a whole roster is lazy and overall problematic.
Advanced techniques in Melee are not glitches. I don't know how many people know about this aside from 64 players, but L-cancelling was present in that game as well. In fact, it cancelled ALL landing lag by using the normal landing animation. It was TONED DOWN in Melee by only speeding up the recovery animation. It's impossible to deduce how such an action was unintended when it was adjusted between games. Wavedashing was left in during development because it didn't seem like much. It easily could have been fixed by not allowing the momentum to carry over. I personally am on the side of discomfort, but that doesn't mean I will bash it. Its use in competitive Melee was not intentional though. It was the breakthrough that created the needed skill-gap to help competition thrive; that goes against everything Sakurai wants for Smash. Competitive Melee was an accident, but it was one that sparked a flame which helped evolve an otherwise competitively baseless series in Sakurai's eyes.
Exploits in competitive gaming are fundamental. Players can complain, but finding a way around such tricks is rewarding. It can be exciting for both player and viewer when atypical situations happen. I understand how matches can be boring to watch, especially when you probably know what is going to happen. Give David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" a read and you'll learn a lot about competition. He's not perfect by any means, but he has experience.

Most open-minded players will always try the new game. There is nothing wrong with that, and if they don't like it they will simply go back to the game they previously played. There is nothing wrong with sticking to the game you like, but at least have a fair mind when judging the other game(s).

Both parties are in the wrong for trying to compare two completely different games as which one is better. At least, I see each Smash title as completely different games because of the differences between each game. Do you see Street Fighter 3 fans complaining about Street Fighter 4 not having Parry? Sure, some bash players who don't move on to the newer one when it comes out, but many people know this is bound to happen after over 20 years of the series being produced. There are a number of players who stick to one game in any fighting series. It's normal, and shouldn't be a problem.

Melee has been through so much that denying its history would mean denying the existence of the community this website originally put together. Brawl came in and helped people develop another game, but it died off and PM came about later on. At that time it was new, fresh, and most importantly, it had potential. Smash 4 comes in as another new game, and what the Wii U needed. I understand its quality mechanically is not up to par, but it's honestly not a bad game. To be frank though, I had the hope of it being the "compromise" between Brawl and Melee until Omega stages were established. I would have just made the stages gimmickless if anything.

If people enjoy a game, then let them. If you don't enjoy a game, then just live and let other people live their lives. Their happiness has nothing to do with your own.

TL;DR: Why did I just spend two hours typing up, proofreading, and revising in response to something that depresses me? **** this ****. Unfollowing this.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

 

[FirestormNeos]

#smashgate--

NO.

 

[Vincent21]

You know, its kind of nice to know that, when you leave this comment section, its over.

Like seriously. I watch a stream of Smash 4, and the commentators are having a good time and the players are doing their thing. I got to see the grand finals of Shots be ZSS v Mario, and it was cool. Hype early conversions into top kill UpBs. The Twitch monsters were doing their thing, posting faces and having a good time. You get a few groaner when Ally CP'd Diddy with Diddy, but not only did he bop M2K, but he went back to his boy Mario anyway for finals after thinking it over. For those to whom its a worry (I don't fancy caring myself) character diversity was on display, especially with Nairo bopping Diddies and other high tiers left and right with Dark Pit and Robin.

It was a good time.

I tuned in on Salty Suite and had a ball watching Bizzarro collect EZ MONEH back when that happened. It was fantastic. Crowd lost its mind. I lost mine. D1 put down the mic. It was good stuff.

You know what I didn't see, though? Any of the nonsense from this thread. What you're currently witnessing is an "echo chamber" of sorts. This is an article (if you can call a shoutout to a small pep talk tweet an article) that specifically draws the attention of people with a vested interest in this argument currently being had. A pep talk is only news if you feel like its helping or hurting. Helping produce positive change, or hurting by negatively influencing competing ideologies you are invested in.

But when you leave this comment section and go to the game forum for either specific game, you're not going to find this junk in the front page threads. In Melee threads you'll see talk about incorporation of techs newly discovered at Apex and how giddy they are that the their game just never stops growing. If you go to the Smash 4 boards you'll see people gushing over how intricate and meta-disturbing the customs on tourney recently broadcasted was and how trash characters like Palutena are suddenly up 30 tier spots taking names and advancing the game and how we watched Diddy and Sonic players in non customs burn out to Pit and Mario.

You won't see this though. This entire conversation is basically just non-representative phenomenon; a thread that purposely baits a vocal minority with the raw efficiency of a lightning rod. You needn't worry about your community nor what you see here, because its represents fluff.

This happens all the time on the Internet too, and communities who are not yet equipped to deal with it are often times overwhelmed. Take heart. This thread is in no way representative of your community. By far the worst actual, far reaching level of potentially poisonous community antics would be the "Melee cheers" from Apex, and there are honestly a lot of very logical reasons those occurred besides just disliking Smash 4, given the externalities of scheduling issues.

If this discussion is something to believe to be pointless (as you should believe), walk away. There is nothing to save and nothing to prove. Melee is having a good year, Smash 4 is having a good year, and last I checked, when the Smash 4 event on clash tournaments concluded, the game the stream greeted me with next is Project M. Your game's falling out with Gimr means little. You still play it, and so it will continue to be streamed and retain viewership. There are no occurring emergencies, and no crisis of viewership. Last I checked Smash 4 and Melee are both going to be at Evo and weren't engaged in mortal kombat in order to retain their seats.

These fake, imagined problems and intercommunal politics only exist among people who are compelled to argue them. Unlike similar ideological divides, like Democrats and Republicans, a whole legal system does not shutdown when these vocal minorities achieve gridlock. Tournaments still welcome both games, development and player engagement remains healthy, and I'm not going to wake up tomorrow to find that Bizzarro Flame utilt axe kicked M2King to death in his home last night in retribution for having betrayed his Melee roots.

Now I'll just get out of your way.

 

[The Slayer]

Pretty much the first comment set the worst tone for this entire news post. If that wasn't trolling, then I don't know what is.

 

[Aphistemi]

Good thread, but some of the posts are just embarrassing. And people wonder why newcomers, or other people from different communities make fun of us.

I respect the people who are trying to make this on ground level, with an intelligent conversation, others need to grow up.

 

[Aygent]

I've skimmed the comments and some peeps are missing the point. Melee is established. I'm a sm4sh player but I watch melee videos and streams not because I want to "get good" at melee, but rather that I enjoy the people behind melee. Melee players tell stories when they play, and no disrespect to any big sm4sh players, but I think that sm4sh could use some refreshing attitudes. Please, talk trash. Have fun. However, game bashing/ community flaming won't help. Melee's established community will be totally tarnished if the hate keeps up. As for sm4sh, You can't stay in the baby phase for ever. Movement options went away somewhat, but the game is still downright fun. It can make hype moments just like melee. Just go out there and make em', people. Good things will happen when you try less and enjoy what you do regardless of outcome.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

i would like to quote or critisize some posts, but i just don't feel like it or want to do it anymore.

What's the point when no matter how much you try to explain something or give out your opinion, there's always going to be someone who will call you out and say "you're wrong" or anything like that.

This logic is why in the last half year or so I've significantly lowered the amount of Smash internet arguments that I've participated in. Obviously being a jerk isn't cool, but still when I read something that I REALLY want to rebut, or someone's just straight up flaming me (lol Reddit) I just stop and think to myself "Would X actually care what I have to say? Would my words actually change their stance at all? Nah, probably not. I've got better things to do."

 

[Shoto]

He said give them a break for a bit, not bury them.
Just give it a chance. This game already has the potential, we shouldn't shun it or put it on the wayside.
Don't take that the wrong way, I love every Smash game, both casually and competitively.
I'm just saying we shouldn't give Melee more attention and possibly kill another different, but just as good, entry in the series before its prime.

Melee and Project M don't need a break. If Smash 4 is such a great game, it should be able to stand up to a 15 year old title, and a gameplay mod.

 

[Kink-Link5]

People like you that worship melee and **** talk other games should get banned.

5 minutes later

Pm is just a better melee that melee kids dont want to play; shows how naive and dumb they are. And wavedashing/l-canceling is a huge exploit, im glad it got removed.

 

[| Kailex |]

5 minutes later

Come to pm social I miss you
I dont want you take b8s
Or act sarcastic
Idk

 

[Kink-Link5]

Come to pm social I miss you
I dont want you take b8s
Or act sarcastic
Idk

Never ever. Between releasing versions with last-minute pulls and the risk of charizard getting ****** even more, I've played less and less PM since 2.1.

 

[XXXCheckmate]

And thats a prime example of how obnoxious melee die hards can be, if the game lacks one thing present in melee, you demonize it as a terrible game. There are other ways to win, you dont need to rely on stale technique(wavedashing, which is a glitch)

Uh...

Are you a Melee player pretending to be a Smash 4 player?

 

[XXXCheckmate]

I concur that the Smash 4 community needs to continue its development and become the superior and flagship game of the entire Smash community. Melee needs to retire much like Smash 64 and Brawl have done; still existing, but a side event. As for the development of Smash 4, many of the community are still plagued by the old and out of date smashological thought of previous games. Contemporary Smash was balanced through buffing the characters to their best! Not the old style of extreme buffs with extreme nerfs. The old style was inept and lead to some characters being less nerfed and out of balance. The new style though does not and (with custom specials to negate any doubt if needed) therefore is the first egalitarian smash game. With that fact in mind, the tier list (which was only vaguely relevant before) is now debunk and completely irrelevant. With the right skill, wit, and strategy, any character can defeat any character because the game is balanced. Diddy Kong and Rosalina & Luma are not unstoppable as many of the community like to purport. If you are a proponent of that idea you will lose due to that negative mental set. Lastly do not let self-serving bias get in the way of banning every stage. Do not blame the stage for your KO, but rather realize it is your fault for misusing or underutilizing the stage to your advantage. All stages should be legal with the TO deciding if the normal versions with boss characters should be legal or not as well. Also coaching has to be completely banned as it is antithetical to Smash itself because Smash is a competition of intelligence and skill between two smashers, not two smashers and their squad. They need to think for themselves and stop slowing and boring the crowds. If the community cherishes these ideals then it too can be as enlightened and extraordinary as the game itself is.

That's some pretty clever satire of a Smash 4 player you got there!

 

[| Kailex |]

Never ever. Between releasing versions with last-minute pulls and the risk of charizard getting ****ed even more, I've played less and less PM since 2.1.

Dont play pm, just come to the pm social thread

 

[KACHOW!!!]

I went to apex 2015 and competed in sm4sh singles. I did ok i guess. I didn't make it out of pools, but this was my first non online smash 4 tourney. Idk, I still play sm4sh a little because Me and some friends are starting a PM/ sm4sh 3ds tourney scene in New Hampshire ("level up smash", find us on facebook). I think that the idea of a call to arms, while admirable, doesn't do much. People are probably going to play the game they think is the most hype/ most technical and has the most possibility for unique playstyle. Honestly the best way to build up the sm4sh scene is to have tournaments and find and play the best people you can in person. There are a LOT of places to play sm4sh online, but the in person tourney scene (at least in new england) is garbage. Almost none (but a few) of the high level good players I know care about sm4sh. I feel like this all comes across as sm4sh hate, but I want to see every smash game's community thrive and do well, because it helps us all out. That being said, once I realized how difficult it is to play smash at a high level against real competitors, I don't think I can justify training hundreds of hours and sinking a big part of my life into a game that doesn't have directional air dodging, has multiple air dodges, and the pop up ledge mechanic, the worst addition to any smash game ever. That being said, sm4sh can still be fun, just not as fun for ME as PM. That being said, I'm still supporting sm4sh, I am helping host a tourney...

 

[Zethoro]

I went to apex 2015 and competed in sm4sh singles. I did ok i guess. I didn't make it out of pools, but this was my first non online smash 4 tourney. Idk, I still play sm4sh a little because Me and some friends are starting a PM/ sm4sh 3ds tourney scene in New Hampshire ("level up smash", find us on facebook). I think that the idea of a call to arms, while admirable, doesn't do much. People are probably going to play the game they think is the most hype/ most technical and has the most possibility for unique playstyle. Honestly the best way to build up the sm4sh scene is to have tournaments and find and play the best people you can in person. There are a LOT of places to play sm4sh online, but the in person tourney scene (at least in new england) is garbage. Almost none (but a few) of the high level good players I know care about sm4sh. I feel like this all comes across as sm4sh hate, but I want to see every smash game's community thrive and do well, because it helps us all out. That being said, once I realized how difficult it is to play smash at a high level against real competitors, I don't think I can justify training hundreds of hours and sinking a big part of my life into a game that doesn't have directional air dodging, has multiple air dodges, and the pop up ledge mechanic, the worst addition to any smash game ever. That being said, sm4sh can still be fun, just not as fun for ME as PM. That being said, I'm still supporting sm4sh, I am helping host a tourney...

This is probably the most educated, fairest post I've seen in this thread.
I agree completely, and wish you the best of luck.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

and those chaingrabs take way more skill to pull off efficiently than hoo hah or kong cyclone in smash 4.

doesnt matter a chain grab is a chain grab,and sheik chaingrabs half melees cast zero to death

 

[DarkLouis331]

I like playing Smash 4, but it has little to no spectator value, and that is why it will die sooner than Melee. I don't see the metagame getting any faster due to overwhelming similarities to Brawl and most of the new characters are camp-based or projectile-based. Nobody is going to want to watch that on stream. (Refer to important matches like Dabuz vs ZeRo at apex gf's and Hbox vs ZeRo for setting up the boring meta we see today in Sm4sh.)

All in all, Nintendo took their typical, boring, safe approach with sequels. The music, aesthetics, and mechanics make it feel like I'm playing Brawl with crap tons of DLC. After a month of playing, I gave up and sold my WiiU altogether. I just don't feel like drudging through 7 years of another Brawl meta.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

All I have to say is, I'm sick of seeing Melee, and Smash 4 offered me something fresh. I played Brawl competitively due to not being one to "stay in the past, Ohh nostalgia, the game is so faaaast, its like I'm playing Sonic da Hedgehog!" No, I play what appeals to me, Solid Snake in Smash? Melee doesn't and will never have that, thus I moved on to the game with a better roster. It is the same reason i play Smash 4, I do not want to get killed for trying to use a character that is pretty bad in Melee like Young Link, while facing a silly ridiculously good character like Fox. it's why I prefer Smash 4, I can put MASSIVE WORK into learning a character, and beat anyone! (I use Ike a lot, like, A LOT, and have taken down a few of the good Diddy''s over at Smash ladder, as I said, put in the work, no one is a problem.) Now Melee, that is the complete opposite (Do not tell me it's not, I mained Mewtwo my whole Melee experience, it was dreadful. It's why I'm glad he's coming back in the Smash game I play nowadays, Smash 4.) I put in YEARS of work in my Mewtwo, and still got killed terribly by a good Fox / Falco due to their ridiculous gimmicks. It's all based on your own inner thoughts and outer mindset of the game, really. Play whichever you enjoy, but just stay away from the one you don't enjoy. It's pointless. Also, if you have never given Smash 4 a try, MORE THAN TWICE, FOR LONG EXTENDED PERIODS, ENOUGH TO MASTER A CHARACTER AT LEAST. You have not experienced what Smash 4 has to offer, just saying.

My thoughts exactly dude glad someone in this discussion has some common sense. I grew up on brawl so i personally don't see why smash 4 gets so much hate when it's compared to melee. But i will say now after playing this and going back to brawl i can see brawl had ALOT of problems competitively the cast was just as unbalanced as melee IN MY OPINION and the overall speed of the game was really slow so people camped, timed out, and did hit and runs forever but i still like it better than melee because even though brawl is a slower paced, camp heavy game at least it had a more viable roster sure all the top players went meta knight but that was because it would win them tournaments not because he was the only viable character he was just really good albeit a tad broken also doesn't help that my favorite character is the worst one in the game. I know how you feel about mewtwo dude, i'm a true Kirby main at heart and i even planned on going back to melee to main Kirby but after watching some matches from Triple R the best Kirby player in the world i just lost hope in ever being able to place higher than 16th in any tournament and decided to not even bother. That's also why smash 4 is my favorite game much like you if you put alot of time into a character you CAN AND WILL have a good chance of winning tournaments( even if it isn't by much it's a heck of alot more of a better chance than you would had playing any character besides the top 8 in melee imo), sure HOO-HAH and F-Throw TO BOUNCING FISH might be considered the best in the game but trust me if you give it time people will find ways to counter these characters and people won't complain about them anymore. I find people tend to call smash 4 boring because every tournament you watch or go to will ALWAYS have at least one HOO-HAH and BOUNCING FISH but like i said give it time and i promise that these complaints will be gone in the next few years. I would also like to point out that Zero said that HOO-HAH should be banned because of how easy it is to win with him presumably getting tired of seeing or losing to him, then what does he do after apologizing for his complaining about a character being top tier especially with it being so early in the meta-game GO TO MAIN THE EXACT SAME CHARACTER HE WHINED ABOUT, CLASSY ZERO, REAL CLASSY.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I like playing Smash 4, but it has little to no spectator value, and that is why it will die sooner than Melee. I don't see the metagame getting any faster due to overwhelming similarities to Brawl and most of the new characters are camp-based or projectile-based. Nobody is going to want to watch that on stream.

That could all change with Custom moves, but it depends on how much they change or break the game. Besides, if there are some that too OP or literally break the game, just ban them!

 

[Broasty]

Not gonna lie, if Diddy turns into the equivalent of a Metaknight from Brawl, ya'll should really consider banning him...could've saved Brawl from its early death.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

Fact is, Melee isn't short of flaws. Especially when it comes to the tier list.

If you're a competitive smash fan, why would you want to limit yourself to a 13 year old game that has practically bled all the meta it can? Especially considering we have a brand new Smash with HUGE potential in the competitive scene. New meta, seemingly much more tight tier list (means less fox v fox battles etc), more characters to learn about in general, new mechanics to adapt to (making it anyone's game)... it yearns for the competitive scene.

Brawl had a lot of issues to be considered as viable as Melee, that much is true. But how do we get any further if all we do is stick with the same thing we have been for 13 years?

I'm not saying dump Melee or PM either. I'm saying we should ADD Smash 4 to the list instead of taking a peek at it and calling it junk because it's not Melee 2. I have recently gotten into a debate with a Melee fan saying Smash 4 has no meta to dig into... literally. So what I'm getting at is nobody knows. But what I've dug into proves to me that this game may actually have the potential to last as long as Melee has.

But alas, the biggest problem with die-hard melee fans seems to be the fact that they can't accept change.

Melee is not done evolving. At some point, in the year 20XX, the only legal stage would be Final Destination and everyone will only play Fox at a TAS level of perfection. Only then will the metagame be complete.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

Not gonna lie, if Diddy turns into the equivalent of a Metaknight from Brawl, ya'll should really consider banning him...could've saved Brawl from its early death.

Have no fear, customs are here.


But seriously, a preliminary customs-on tier list was just released on /r/smashbros and Sheik is No. 1.

 

[Engage]

Melee is not done evolving. At some point, in the year 20XX, the only legal stage would be Final Destination and everyone will only play Fox at a TAS level of perfection. Only then will the metagame be complete.

Das... Das good, das... das really good.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This call loses all credibility just for being posted on Pastebin.

 

[Bazzeltroff]

So... Am I the only one here who enjoys playing every smash game? Hmmmmm...

 

[SojyuRyu]

How do we add our names to the master list document.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Das... Das good, das... das really good.

Final Destination has no place in a competitive game where disparate versions of the three-platform arrangement are available. It just also happens to be that four stages aren't enough to strike from.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I'm seeing a lot of replies saying that people need to "give Melee/PM a break" or "move on" or similar things. In my opinion, this is a bad mindset to have.

I, and many other Melee/PM players, simply are not interested in Smash 4. I don't dislike it at all; it is a deep, competitive fighter and I can see its appeal, but I personally do not enjoy its overall design. I, and thousands of others, simply want to play our preferred games, and they are Melee and PM. We enjoy them as they are and don't want to change.

I want to see Smash 4 grow into a stupendous community to rival that of Melee; I want to see it create hype and I want to see players like Zero be as respected as PPMD or Mango. But to assume that the SMash 4 community needs or deserves the Melee and PM communities to stop playing their games only broadens the rift between the games.

I want to see Smash 4 become great, but I want to see it do it on its own, without any sort of subujugation of the other games or a rift between the communities.

 

[brodouble]

doesnt matter a chain grab is a chain grab,and sheik chaingrabs half melees cast zero to death

rarely happens that flawlessly. were there any sheiks in apex finals?

 

[NoviceSmasher]

rarely happens that flawlessly. were there any sheiks in apex finals?

no because fox bodies sheik lol

 

[Elite Smasher]

That's some pretty clever satire of a Smash 4 player you got there!

Um I am a contemporary smashsonian progressive and excellent Smash 4 player. Who are you to call me some satiricao phony? I also am a smashologists, so I know some of my ideas might be hard to comprehend, but rest assured I am legitimate.

 

[brodouble]

no because fox bodies sheik lol

and marth bodied fox.

 

[ilikesquids]

"we need to give PM and melee a break for a bit, and take time to learn the new game"

So disgusting. If people don't want to learn the new game, they aren't going to.

 

[Szion]

Um. if the game wasnt "dodge is safe, lemme spam that"

or "lets make knockback crazy at low %'s so they cant combo."

Then the game would be worth the time melee/n64 and PM have invested..