Q&A Smash Ultimate "Mains Advice" Thread

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Why would you ever seriously play Doc when Mario exists?

Doc is actually low-key really good at mid-level play, Mario is only better because his recovery isn't booty. My opinions, of course.

 

[odt]

Did you try Doc Mario? Apart from "great recovery", he would fit quite well. Range might not be too impressive, but otherwise...

His movement is too slow for me and I don't feel comfortable edgeguarding and recovering with him. Thanks though!

Try Lucina. Easy to pick up and fulfills almost all your specifications.

Lucina is great and definitely the character I feel most comfortable with (so great pick!). I just feel she doesn't have much untapped potential and her game is slightly boring. Are there other characters that you could recommend?

 

[channel_KYX]

Sorry, my mistake, please delete

 

[Keeshu]

Why would you ever seriously play Doc when Mario exists?

I used to dismiss Doctor Mario until one of my friends brought him out when the going gets tough. He doesn't do quite as well with Mario because his playstyle benefits from Doctor Mario more than regular Mario. There's enough differences between the two characters to main one over the other.

With that said I personally do much better with regular Mario. He's one of the characters I can just pick up and do well with no previous practice with the character, and I was able to go even with or beat people around my skill level or better with Mario in Smash 4. Trying to use Doctor Mario however is a different story. However, that's probably because I never saw Doctor Mario mains before so I didn't know how to use him properly, so he just felt bad until I saw a friend play him very well. As opposed to seeing Mario mains absolutely everywhere.

 

[Xelrog]

I am firmly of the belief that Doc offers nothing that Mario does not as the two currently stand. It might be worth trading off the combo power for the heavier hits, but it's not worth losing the ability to combo and having no recovery. If their recovery were comparable, they would both be viable in their own ways, but Doc just loses too much for what he gains.

 

[Keeshu]

I am firmly of the belief that Doc offers nothing that Mario does not as the two currently stand. It might be worth trading off the combo power for the heavier hits, but it's not worth losing the ability to combo and having no recovery. If their recovery were comparable, they would both be viable in their own ways, but Doc just loses too much for what he gains.

If we were making a tier list I definitely would say that Doctor Mario probably isn't as good as Mario. However we're talking about maining characters. You can't play Doctor Mario like playing Mario because the things that Doc goes for is different. It's like trying to play Pichu like Pikachu. There are subtle differences that make them better/worse than each other but it's enough to completely change the playstyle and you'll be doing poorly if you try to play that character like the other one because that's not what the character was made to do. Now the point of saying all that is because some people will have troubles playing one character compared to the other, even if that character is supposedly better. So since I already mentioned the Doctor Mario player I've played against regularly already, I figure I'll mention my own situation like that. A lot of people like to say Link and Toon Link are basically the same character. I learned Smash off of Link so I did very well with him in Smash 4 and he was very reliable, but Toon Link on the other hand is one of the worst character I get to play with. Toon Link's playstyle is just too vastly different compared to Link despite them sharing so many of the same moves, but Toon Link is much higher on the tier list in Smash 4 than Link.

 

[Xelrog]

The thing is, everyone in your post except doesn't have the worst recovery in the game.

 

[Keeshu]

The thing is, everyone in your post except doesn't have the worst recovery in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AicN2sqjTXs A video that talks about the differences between the Doc and Mario and how they have different playstyles. The Doc isn't outright worse than Mario like he was in Smash 4. Still, I think it's far more important to have a character that fits your playstyle. This is the last I'll say on the subject because I feel like I'm starting to say the same things over and over.

 

[Heracr055]

Doc has 2 things over regular Mario:

-Doc Tornado. This move got buffed in terms of knockback from 4 (where it was still good and getting early KOs when used offstage). It still has it's good priority as well.
-Forward aerial. This move is extremely powerful and can get KOs starting around 60%. Couple that with Pill popping foes in a favorable angle to follow up with it and you have a fearsome (and even scarier, consistent) kill option.

Again, Mario has a better recovery and FLUDD which can be niche. However, you don't want to say that Doc has nothing that Mario has already that's better.

Edit: I had a secondary Doc for awhile in Smash 4, and greatly enjoyed using him. I think Doc is a great choice for a main or secondary if someone enjoys his style

 

[Velshoor]

Hi, I need help to find a main in this game because it seems like I'm improving so slow for my indecision about it..
I start playing smash since brawl, with sheik. Then in smash 4 my main was toon Link but I can't choose here.. there are too many interesting characters.. my first choice was Pokemon trainer because it's like to main 3 different characters lol but actually I enjoy only Ivysaur and a little bit Squirtle..
My ideal character is very mobile and with fun air combos.. my thoughts were on diddy kong but has too many problems..
Hope my english wasn't too terrible^^

 

[Xelrog]

Don't worry about improving too slow. Just keep trying characters.

are all pretty fast and strong in the air.

is a heavy with good speed and air options.

aren't super fast, but they are very mobile and have many air options.

 

[Deleted member]

Best advice for an aspiring Mario main. Go!

 

[Velshoor]

Don't worry about improving too slow. Just keep trying characters.

are all pretty fast and strong in the air.

is a heavy with good speed and air options.

aren't super fast, but they are very mobile and have many air options.

I don't really like Bowser, he's too heavy and I can't handle it..
Meta knite is interesting but I don't know...
I used peach and inkling for some times and I think inkling is almost there, but it's not totally for me.. same with Peach.
I will try Pikachu!
Diddy Kong would be perfect if they didn't need so hard he's vertical recovery..
And what about Sonic? I thought about it, but I don't know..

 

[staindgrey]

I actually want some insight here, though I'm browsing the character forum and have been playing against friends in the Social thread for experience.

I'm thinking of maining Corrin. I love her movement and ability within neutral. The moveset flows well and, while I initially tried to play a lot of Lucina, Corrin feels more natural to me. However, I cannot ****ing kill with her in a reasonable amount of time against a decent player. I'll consistently rack up a substantial percentage lead before losing the stock lead because I can't hit with a tipper or properly chase offstage. The most reliable kill move I seem to have is her counter and that's not a good best-option to have.

Is there enough upside to warrant seriously pursuing her as a main or have her kill nerfs hurt her too much?

 

[Xelrog]

And what about Sonic? I thought about it, but I don't know..

Try him if you want. He's very technical and his Up-air is slow, which is why I didn't really recommend him. He also lacks finishing power.

Best advice for an aspiring Mario main. Go!

It looks like you've been a Mario main for quite a while, though? If you want tips for a specific character, you should probably try the character forum.

 

[MavPL]

Hello guys, need some help from you.

I'm new to Smash but not new to the FG in general. Picking mains was always my problem, so this time I decided to pick one once for all and lab him to death.

I'd like to main an offensive, faster rather then slow, in your face character (think Ken in SF, but not the flowchart meme Ken ) but the one which isn't braindead and one-dimensional. Who has a solid and relatively safe offence and good recovery (again, no braindead yolo stuff). Also I'm not like totally tier ***** but prefer to play characters which are at least in the mid

I've done my research, know the archetypes and tiers. I've already sinked like 30h into world of light. Unlocked most of the fighters and I'm like 90% decided to stick with Fox or Pikachu but I'm open for other suggestions based on the description above (I don't like Lucina and swordies in general, as they seems laggy and boring. Well maybe Ylink but I think he's more like a zoner... Thought about Wario but he seems gimmicky)

I'd like you to help me decide which one to pick, based on these answers:

Which one is more fundamental based and honest ? (I like to learn the game the proper way)
Which one of them has better neutral game, range and approach tools ? (probably Pika?)
Which one of them is harder and have more advance BnB techs required to do good (skill floor) ?
Any other recomendations?

Thanks in advance for any help

 

[Zinith]

Hello guys, need some help from you.

I'm new to Smash but not new to the FG in general. Picking mains was always my problem, so this time I decided to pick one once for all and lab him to death.

I'd like to main an offensive, faster rather then slow, in your face character (think Ken in SF, but not the flowchart meme Ken ) but the one which isn't braindead and one-dimensional. Who has a solid and relatively safe offence and good recovery (again, no braindead yolo stuff). Also I'm not like totally tier ***** but prefer to play characters which are at least in the mid

I've done my research, know the archetypes and tiers. I've already sinked like 30h into world of light. Unlocked most of the fighters and I'm like 90% decided to stick with Fox or Pikachu but I'm open for other suggestions based on the description above (I don't like Lucina and swordies in general, as they seems laggy and boring. Well maybe Ylink but I think he's more like a zoner... Thought about Wario but he seems gimmicky)

I'd like you to help me decide which one to pick, based on these answers:

Which one is more fundamental based and honest ? (I like to learn the game the proper way)
Which one of them has better neutral game, range and approach tools ? (probably Pika?)
Which one of them is harder and have more advance BnB techs required to do good (skill floor) ?
Any other recomendations?

Thanks in advance for any help

Yoshi has all of the qualities you mentioned, but with the added benefit of a good punish game and aerial mobility. Even his historically mediocre recovery has gotten a marked improvement with how the momentum gained from his Up B is added onto his ridiculous 2nd Jump.

 

[channel_KYX]

Which one is more fundamental based and honest ? (I like to learn the game the proper way)
Which one of them has better neutral game, range and approach tools ? (probably Pika?)
Which one of them is harder and have more advance BnB techs required to do good (skill floor) ?
Any other recomendations?

Both Fox and Pikachu fit that very well. I am no expert on both, but I'd say Fox has a higher skill ceiling.

 

[Chewshoe]

Okay, so I've been trying many different characters lately and I've still had no luck finding a main. I was referred to Ike by Izaw, but there is a big issue with him that I really don't like:

His attacks feel like they come out way too slow.

The fact that my brother mains Ike means I should probably pick a different character as well. I know ditto matches are good to learn from, but I just prefer not to play dittos, as they do get confusing at times. Now I understand I've played Mr. Game & Watch a lot in the previous games, but in Ultimate, he's just not cutting it thanks to his new fair, hitboxes being smaller, and down throw having too much knockback.

 

[channel_KYX]

Okay, so I've been trying many different characters lately and I've still had no luck finding a main. I was referred to Ike by Izaw, but there is a big issue with him that I really don't like:

His attacks feel like they come out way too slow.

The fact that my brother mains Ike means I should probably pick a different character as well. I know ditto matches are good to learn from, but I just prefer not to play dittos, as they do get confusing at times. Now I understand I've played Mr. Game & Watch a lot in the previous games, but in Ultimate, he's just not cutting it thanks to his new fair, hitboxes being smaller, and down throw having too much knockback.

Well, you could join the bandwagon and play Wolf. Fast attacks and good combos.
Or go for a swordie if you need more range.

 

[Chewshoe]

Well, you could join the bandwagon and play Wolf. Fast attacks and good combos.
Or go for a swordie if you need more range.

I mean it's not a bad idea. My Wolf apparently isn't all that bad, however, I do need to work on his advantage state and combos.

 

[Xelrog]

Is Wolf considered good? I've heard both opinions on him from players of I-don't-know skill levels.

 

[Chewshoe]

Is Wolf considered good? I've heard both opinions on him from players of I-don't-know skill levels.

ZeRo mains Wolf in Ultimate, claiming that he's top tier along with Fox. RankedBoost has him in A tier. VoiD has Wolf in top tier for his list. I know that's only just a few examples, but Wolf does have a rather high placement in 2.0 tier lists.

Yet again, I don't do tier-based picks, as I mained Game & Watch in Smash 4. I'm using Wolf this time around because he just kinda works for me.

 

[Keeshu]

Is Wolf considered good? I've heard both opinions on him from players of I-don't-know skill levels.

Since I have a hard time resisting the urge listening to tier lists while I do chores, I'd say it's very safe to say most top players think Wolf is top tier.

I consider myself a mid-level player. I don't have perfect control of characters like top tier players do, but I often know what the opponent is going to do and punish them accordingly, but I don't have the best punishes because my fingers don't co-operate sometimes. So with my experience with Wolf, he feels very good and he's very easy. His recovery is pretty bad, but at least his side B is very hard to punish and even if you attempt to punish it you could die instead if you're just slightly off so most people won't try too hard to edgeguard you unless they know of a way to avoid the spike hit box, in which case you're probably dead. His blaster is absolutely ridiculous though. A lot of the time I don't even really have to fight neutral because the blaster does too much damage for how insanely easy it is to hit people due to it's speed, size, and range. However, sometimes people don't even want to get close because he's such a fast character. I had to prevent myself from using his blaster so I can force myself to learn his other moves better because that blaster can pretty much carry you. I definitely expect a nerf to blaster in some way at some point. Can't go wrong with Wolf.

Funnily enough Wolf was the first character I tried to do competitive techniques with, in Brawl of all smash games. A few things carry over, but overall he feels like a completely different character to me. Took me a little while to get used to the Forward Smash and Down Smash changes because they were so dang fast in Brawl. Though it sorta feels like he can KO with more moves now.

 

[WumpaWolfy]

Hey guys, I'm coming from melee and am having a hard time settling on a main, hope you guys can help. Mostly looking for a versatile main to dominate my local friend group, not sure how interested I am in tournament play. Here's what I'm looking for:

-Has a great edgeguard game (I have no idea how to ledgetrap and I can't resist jumping deep offstage to seal the deal).
-Has a great out of shield option.
-Has fluid and slick movement.
-Has great aerials.
-Is not overly grab centric OR has a fantastic grab that makes it hard to punish my pants grab game.
-Has a positive or even matchup vs Pichu and Young Link, my two main meta threats (not necessary but a huge benefit).
-I want a well rounded character, but also one that gets a "oh damn, you're that doc main" kind of reaction that I enjoyed in melee. I don't know how much I care about this bit anymore but I have conflicting tier *****/low tier hero inclinations.
-A character unlikely to end up in a ditto match/overlap with mains of players in my group.

Previous Mains:

64:
Melee:
Brawl:
PM:
Smash 4: ... I guess, dropped the game after he was nerfed

Current characters I'm considering:

I adore Ivysaur but the other pokemon haven't been resonating with me and the learning curve feels very steep. Big Leff dropping the character has brought back the trauma of Shroomed dropping Doc. May keep as a pocket fun character as their playstyle feels so exciting and refreshing. Did I mention Ivysaur is my favourite Pokemon?

Pikachu and Pichu have the amazing off stage game and recovery I want, with a solid tempo controlling projectile to boot. My brawl Pika QAC experience has helped my Pika game too. Only downside (and one I consider to be very significant) is we already have a player in our group who has claimed Pichu as his main and I hate doubling down. Immature but hard to overcome. I also hate ditto matches. Because of this I've been leaning on Pikachu over Pichu and spending lots of time in the lab practicing ff nair utilt combos rocking my slick Gold Pika hat.

Inkling and Metaknight are characters with which I have very little experience with or understanding of their playstyles, but like the Pikas have that fanatastic offstage game that has them on my radar.

Love the neutral games of these guys but the fact that they can't jump off the stage without instantly dying has been a huge frustration despite my early success with these two. They both feel like they reward my fundamentals and their characters suit me well. I struggle being the patient grounded Wolf I see Zackray play and my soul dies a little every time I have to stop the nairplane as Ike to uselessly set the ledge ablaze while my opponent recovers for free. Both were strong early contenders for my prospective main but I am currently investing more time in PT and Pika.

Lastly, Lucina and Wario are characters I feel no personal connection to but I like the way their playstyles flow. They feel good in my hands, but also bore me at the same time. I could easily see picking one or the other up as a secondary to overcome bad matchups when having a secondary actually matters, but I don't know if I feel a strong enough connection to them to make them my primary focus.

 

[AJb1205]

I currently main Ness but I definitely feel like I need a secondary. Ness kinda gets clapped by sword characters because of their better disjoint and I also lose to characters like wolf and fox a lot but they're a lot more manageable. I like having a good neutral with good aerials and having a good out of shield option to help me get away or do good damage. I also like characters with good off stage game and aren't too difficult to kill with.

 

[Coccinelle]

Disclaimer: Noob here. Just started SSB with ultimate. Early fan of the Star Fox saga (yes, from the first episode on the Super Nintendo). Have been maining Wolf from the beginning. Playing Wolf I have come to the point that I can kick the butt of lev 9 bo0ts more often than not. Still struggling to win games online though. Still considering myself a low level - kinda Z tier player in the competitive game.
Recently I was thinking that it may be interesting to give a shot to Fox and even more Falco. Quite stupidly, I was influenced by comments claiming that Wolf was one of the best characters and I thought it would be better to master and eventually succeed with a character that is not top tier, like Falco. After watching a couple of videos on Youtube I started to practice Falco aerial combos in training mode and then decided to test my brand new aerial skills against bots. Unfortunately, getting deadly aerial combos with Falco was a totally different story outside the training mode. After trying for one week, I am still struggling against bots that are just lev 7, while I make 100% of wins with Wolf at this level. This may reflect the fact that one week is not enough and I have spent more time on Wolf. But my conclusion is that Wolf is really top tier for noobs. He is powerful, easy to handle, and if his combo potential is not as good as Falco (or Fox), it would probably take much more time to master other spacies to the level that would allow me to make online wins on a regular basis. Conclusion: I will not give a F that Wolf is top or low tier for SSB champions, he is just top tier for me. Wolf is just a cool character and probably one of the easiest character to start with. I may continue to play Falco a little bit because he is fun too, but will keep Wolf as main.
Would be interested to hear your comments on this and to learn about other good "basic" characters that may be good picks for beginners.

 

[Xelrog]

If you like Wolf, play Wolf.

Pikachu/Pichu are considered extremely good and are pretty easy to pick up and play and grasp how their moves work. Olimar (I feel) is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and requires a lot of precision and knowledge/coordination to maximize his potential. Peach/Daisy are somewhere in the middle in that they have some pretty easy techniques to pick up but a high ceiling for much trickier ones.

 

[lukas_lb]

Hello,
this is my first Smash-game ever, I never played it before (although I am 28 years old) and started playing without knowing if I will like it. And well, I like it alot! I'm not a fan of the solo-content and just fighting the CPU and online to improve my gameplay, played around 50 hours already. I started with Captain Falcon and watched many of Fatalitys videos, but as an absolute beginner, combos are almost impossible because of the tight timing and that I am still bad at shorthopping. I then tried other characters and found Isabelle quiet interesting, because combos seem easier and the gameplay is somewhat slower. Im still stuck between 70-80k GSP, but I have the feeling it gets better.
My question is : As a beginner I am worried I will learn the game mechanics the wrong way because I play with an unique character like Isabelle. Should I switch my character to something more technical, like wolf or fox, to learn the basics or should I stay with Isabelle?
I am playing for 3 weeks now and don't want to start all over after more time because my skills I developed with Isabelle will be worthless when trying to play competitive with stronger characters.
Thank you for your help!

 

[Chewshoe]

Hello,
this is my first Smash-game ever, I never played it before (although I am 28 years old) and started playing without knowing if I will like it. And well, I like it alot! I'm not a fan of the solo-content and just fighting the CPU and online to improve my gameplay, played around 50 hours already. I started with Captain Falcon and watched many of Fatalitys videos, but as an absolute beginner, combos are almost impossible because of the tight timing and that I am still bad at shorthopping. I then tried other characters and found Isabelle quiet interesting, because combos seem easier and the gameplay is somewhat slower. Im still stuck between 70-80k GSP, but I have the feeling it gets better.
My question is : As a beginner I am worried I will learn the game mechanics the wrong way because I play with an unique character like Isabelle. Should I switch my character to something more technical, like wolf or fox, to learn the basics or should I stay with Isabelle?
I am playing for 3 weeks now and don't want to start all over after more time because my skills I developed with Isabelle will be worthless when trying to play competitive with stronger characters.
Thank you for your help!

Personally, my picks for beginners are Cloud, Ike, Captain Falcon, Fox, R.O.B., Mario, and Palutena.

: These characters are really good to learn spacing with. They're also really good sword fighters in general, but Ike has the better recovery of the two. If you want to play a character that requires good spacing like Marth, who has a sweetspot at the tip of his sword, then I'd recommend starting with these two and moving on to Lucina.

: Great combo based characters, especially if we're talking about Fox. Captain Falcon can do some amazing combos, and is pretty easy to get a grip on how to use properly as a combo character. Fox is extremely flexible and can be used in pretty much any way. He's got a decent grab and good throws, his recovery is great, but he's a fast-falling lightweight. Fox's combo game is through the roof and if you can get momentum going and you're a decent Fox player, you'll have a hard time losing.

: Great all-arounders for beginners. R.O.B. and Palutena are significantly better than they were in Smash 4, but you said Ultimate was your first Smash game. Mario is great for teaching the general fundamentals, as he has a solid projectile, a good recovery, a reflector, and a move that gimps other players' recovery. These three all have quite a good combo game as well. R.O.B. being the heaviest of the three, he's probably going to get combo'd the easiest but he also has two good projectiles and a reflector, with some nice throw moves. His Up-Air is a good multi-hitting move that deals a lot of damage. Many of R.O.B.'s moves are very hard to punish as well. Palutena has a counter, a reflector, and two projectiles with a solid combo game and good throws. If you like solid all-arounders, I'd highly recommend one of these three.

 

[FlareDoesStuff]

I'm a roy main trying to find a secondary for some bad match ups like Pichu Pikachu, and wolf. does anyone have some suggestions?

 

[Xelrog]

What is it about those matchups that hurts Roy? Is it mainly a zoning thing? If so, you could try Cloud for a sword boi with a reliable projectile, or if you really want to learn the projectile game in-depth you could go with one of the Links.

Robin's sword attacks are a bit like Roy's but I've personally never liked how technical he/she is.

 

[DelugeFGC]

There's a wide variety of factors to base a secondary pick off of. Is it a secondary MAIN, or just a secondary? Is this secondary a character you're picking up for variety / fun, or is it to fill the gaps created by your current main's less fortunate MU's?

All in all, if you want something similar to Roy that doesn't have a single bad MU across the whole roster on top of being of one if not THE best characters in the game.. pick Lucina.

She'll play VERY closely to Roy, few differences.. pros include not having to worry about a sweet spot, having a better recovery, having a better DAir.. etc. Roy is a fun character, Roy is a great high tier, but if you want a secondary main you can use when Roy just ain't cutting it for whatever reason, who also plays in a way that won't mess you up between transitions from Roy to the secondary..? Lucina is by far your best bet.

Marth is fine too but he has to worry about his tipper sweetspot which is 100% going to mess up how you play Roy considering how different their SS's are placed on the blade. One is hilt, one is tip, entirely different spacing game. Lucina won't screw you in that department. Chrom has a terrible recovery and I feel Roy overall is just better than he is. Ike is very different in terms of how he feels and plays, as is Cloud and Corrin. The most similar to your main are Chrom, Marth and Lucina and Lucina is by far the best option of those 3.

Otherwise, it's a matter of what you want / need. Zoning / turtling / strong neutrals? Rush-down, combo game and early kill potential? Etc, etc. I'd recommend actually keeping multiple (2-3) secondary characters in your pocket that can diversely fill out all the MU jank you may have, plus it's nice to not be locked into the same character for hundreds of games in a row which can burn on you a bit in my experience.. so even if you main a top tier with no real bad MU's, a secondary never hurts.

 

[FlareDoesStuff]

What is it about those matchups that hurts Roy? Is it mainly a zoning thing? If so, you could try Cloud for a sword boi with a reliable projectile, or if you really want to learn the projectile game in-depth you could go with one of the Links.

Robin's sword attacks are a bit like Roy's but I've personally never liked how technical he/she is.

I tried Robin but I switching between Levin sword is awkward and I can't play without tilt stick but I might s
Try cloud or one of the links

 

[DelugeFGC]

Cloud is nothing like Roy at all, though I would place him above Roy in the tiers. Cloud has disjointed hitboxes the size of Mexico on his aerials, tilts and FSmash/USmash. He also has a dash that's quite a bit faster than his walk/run speed would lead on, and said mobility only gets better when he has Limit which has effects on mobility such as improved air speed. Cloud is about knowing neutral, knowing spacing and knowing how to juggle Limit all the while. He has some combo game, but most of what Cloud racks % with boils down to juggling the hell out of you once you lose neutral to him because it can be VERY difficult to escape disadvantage state when facing Cloud.

Cloud has access to a projectile (blade beam) which can turn into a potential kill move with Limit, but I wouldn't try to do any kind of hard zoning with it. It's not something you want to try and camp or turtle behind, it's more something to quickly throw out in neutral to either punish an approach or force a jump which you can pretty much always antiair with one of Cloud's massive aerials, typically BAir / FAir or sometimes NAir. It can also be used when coming back onstage for slightly easier recoveries, as can momentum stalling with his Side-B. Cloud as I said does have some combo game, he can string UTilts into a DAir or a NAir or start a juggle with UAirs out of a FAir meteor on-stage after the bounce. He doesn't have anything super crazy in terms of his combos though as it really isn't what he's about. Cloud is about winning neutral, giving your opponent absolute hell and never letting them escape disadvantage because Cloud has SEVERAL tools to make that task impossible (UAir, FAir, BAir, NAir, Limit moves, Side-B, Up-B, Smashes, Tilts..) due mostly to said massive hitboxes and Cloud's speed. You can literally just sit on the ledge at times and FAir / BAir cancel into landings from a short hop and score kills doing it if your opponent isn't being careful due to just how large the hitboxes on those moves are.

Once you rack up % with them in disadv, you can go in for the kill with something like a Limit Side B (Cross Slash) or Down B (Finishing Touch) which both have multiple confirms. You can also kill fairly early with things such as FSmash out of a hard read, LOTS of Cloud's moves can kill, just a matter of knowing when/how to use them. Otherwise, if Cloud gets you off the ledge, you could be screwed if the Cloud is worth his salt as he's one of the most terrifying characters to have keeping you offstage in Ultimate.. regardless of your %. He has two sweetspot meteors (FAir and DAir) and massive hitboxes, a good Cloud can also get back to the stage alright enough to come further out.. ESPECIALLY if he has Limit. He can also use his DSmash to catch rolls off the ledge, USmash to guard a high recovery or wall out platforms.. and his BAir tends to kill around 70%+ if he hits you offstage with it, sometimes sooner on lighter characters. DAir can be used to 2-frame spike you, and getting dunked by Cloud is surprisingly easy to have happen due to him having quite a few confirms to do-so if at the right % around the side of the stage. For example, DTilt > SH UAir > FH FAir is a dunk setup around 40% for a lot of characters depending on their DI and such.

All said, he's VERY good, fantastic even and I'd say definitely on the lower-end of top tier still.. BUT, he isn't perfect. As fast as Cloud's dash and air mobility is (esp. with Limit), he's not as fast as some other characters and some of his moves have either a fair bit of startup OR endlag. For example, FAir has quite a bit of startup, and DAir/UAir a good bit of endlag (though the hitboxes linger, so this can be a good thing at times). So don't run off the stage and immediately DAir, as you'll be stuck in the move's endlag JUST long enough to short your recovery unless you have Limit, and if FAiring out of short hops, be sure to time it right as to not cancel the move before the hitbox becomes active. He has a few quirks, but only few and I still don't think he has any truly horrid matchups.

Link (adult) is more of a turtle / zoner character who is about doing nearly everything he does in neutral, which is where he thrives. A good Link is a wall. Young Link has similar tools, but has more of a focus on rush-down mechanics and doesn't have nearly as much kill power or range, but is MUCH faster. Toon Link gets the shortest end of the stick of the 3, he's floaty, lacks kill power and range, isn't too fast and just.. meh. If going for a Link, go Young or Adult Link.. not Toon. They're a far cry from Roy, but if they're what you feel like you need then hey, there you go.

I actually want some insight here, though I'm browsing the character forum and have been playing against friends in the Social thread for experience.

I'm thinking of maining Corrin. I love her movement and ability within neutral. The moveset flows well and, while I initially tried to play a lot of Lucina, Corrin feels more natural to me. However, I cannot ****ing kill with her in a reasonable amount of time against a decent player. I'll consistently rack up a substantial percentage lead before losing the stock lead because I can't hit with a tipper or properly chase offstage. The most reliable kill move I seem to have is her counter and that's not a good best-option to have.

Is there enough upside to warrant seriously pursuing her as a main or have her kill nerfs hurt her too much?

I know this post is older, but it seems the thread zipped right by it so, eh. Corrin is a pretty cool character and in my personal opinion Corrin has all the right tools a character would need to do well enough within the meta of Ult... BUT.. Corrin hits like a wet paper bag, got a needless recovery nerf and is resigned to walloping you in neutral before fishing for counters or sweetspots awkwardly as you inevitably kill Corrin and start chipping away at their % next stock, then you finally die and Corrin is already at 80% and it's just a ****-show from there. That's Corrin, in Ult.. I wish it wasn't, but in my 10-15 hours with them it's the jist of my gameplay experiences. At lower level play I could see Corrin working out, but against anyone half decent using anyone from High or Top Tier.. Corrin has serious struggles. I feel the right buffs could go miles for Corrin, though.

Right now, Corrin can't edge guard super well, Corrin absolutely cannot kill at all and Corrin is also probably one of the least honest FE characters 2nd to only Robin as well, which seems to attract salt toward Corrin mains from what I've seen in games / at locals. I feel like Corrin has tons of potential and I can absolutely see how a character like Corrin would appeal to certain play styles a lot, but it just seems they were neutered a little too hard in Ultimate. I don't remember Sm4sh Corrin much to comment there.

Cloud plays somewhat, kind of similarly to Corrin in that he's a swordie with a projectile and strong neutral focus, but he has far more range, speed and kill power. Cloud may feel SOMEWHAT natural if you like Corrin, but take that with like 50 grains of salt because I'm barely sane.

 

[Plazma™]

Please excuse me if I'm doing any of this incorrectly, first post from a lurker here.

Here's my situation: I started playing Melee when I was 5. No, I'm no prodigal child who grew up playing smash every day, it was just something fun I did with my siblings/friends. This was true (for the most part) all the way up until Ultimate. Ultimate, so far, seems to be the only SSB I have any interest in actually taking seriously, as I take major issue in some way or another with each of the previous entries. I've never had any experience with Project M.

I have, to date, played Samus exclusively in every Smash Bros., ending with Smash 4. Again, this doesn't mean I'm somehow super insanely familiar with the character or game. I didn't know what a tilt attack even *was* until halfway through 4. I didn't know what a dair was until a few weeks ago. That's not to say I didn't know how to do it, but I've never been one for getting super involved in forums or watching Esports, so the terminology eluded me.

Onto the relevant information regarding me choosing a main: I have no idea. I don't believe I want to specialize in Samus anymore, as she just doesn't feel like winning material and I would like to go to actual tournaments when I feel comfortable enough. Samus has, however, previously shaped my Smash Bros. experience. I never tried anyone who lacked a projectile, and I refused to play anyone who so much as yelled when attacking, as I thought it was really irritating in comparison to Samus' stoic personality. This sticks with me as I would be a camper if I could (it does not net me successes anymore), and I still don't really like how vocal some of the cast is. I have some experience with the games of some of the cast, and others I've never touched (namely PunchOut, Fire Emblem, Star Fox, etc.). Being loyal to any one franchise died when I decided to drop Samus, as Metroid is my #1 Nintendo series.

All of that has been tossed aside. The only thing that matters to me in regards to a main now is how they *feel*. I've recently been picking random members of Ultimate's cast out to try, and seeing what I do and don't like. I definitely don't like being forced to approach, for any reason. I would much rather my opponent come to me (unless I'm edge guarding, in which case i wanna get real *close*). I don't think I really like slow fallers. Even though the fast fallers are combo food, I feel much more in control with them as I can get back to the stage much quicker. I can, however, deal with slow fallers if I have an option to get down quickly (for example, Toon Link's down air). I don't much care for stringing together lots of little attacks (lighter and more complex combos), as I'd much rather just hit the enemy 1-3 times when a window is open and knock them offstage. I rarely jump unless I know I've got an opportunity to hit them hard with a specific aerial, or special attack. I very much like how Shulk can modify his attacks on the fly, but I don't really like how his attacks work very much.

I've experimented with the Marth clones, of which Marth himself and Roy stood out the most to me. However, both of these characters lack any sort of ranged attack, and I hate Roy's inverse tipper. I finally broke and decided to play one of the many Links (for some reason I'd been putting it off indefinitely), and I very much liked Toon Link's kit. His many and versatile projectiles, combined with his limited projectile invulnerability (Hylian Shield). However, I really don't enjoy being light and having to figure out how to get myself safely back onstage every time I'm touched. When I tried R.O.B. I found a very competent ranger and combo-er in him. I really enjoyed throwing people offstage, nair-ing and then his patented "*SPIN TO WIN*". Something still feels very off about his ground-game, however.

Infuriatingly, for seemingly no reason at all, my absolute best character (out of the few that I actually put any time into trying to learn) is big ol' triple D. I never intended to main Dedede, only used him for the memes, but I love crushing shields and spitting projectiles back at people (not to mention enjoying setting up combos with his hammer and Gordo hits similar to K. Rool's punches and cannonball). I have lots of fun with DDD, but I don't think I can use him in any serious scenario, simply because he's just too easy to hit. He's currently my best bet to attain success in any competitive environment, but I'm not really comfortable with that.

I'm sorry if this was far too long a read and not very organized, I may edit it later. But if any of this is helpful, I am willing to take all suggestions. I will try *any* member of the cast if you think they'll fit my style. This includes anyone you may not immediately think of as well, such as Piranha Plant, Joker (whenever he's out), or any of the Mii fighters. Thank you for taking the time to read this and respond.

EDIT: To clarify, I like Sulk's Monado Arts mechanic, in that it's certainly interesting, and something I could potentially master with a few hundred hours of gameplay, I would much prefer something more consistent. However, I would say that Mr. G&W's Hammer is an acceptable amount of unpredictability (namely RNG). It doesn't require planning, it requires praying (lol). I would very much have to plan around Shulk's gimmick.

EDIT #2: I'd apologize for editing this so much, but I was told to edit rather than double post so this is gonna get super long. I re-discoverd what an oppressive ****lord you can be with the mii gunner. I dont know if I really like how deep he can/can't go when edge guarding, but he's ticking quite a few of my boxes atm. Plus, he's a mini mii!

.....I may have gotten my ass handed to me on a silver platter, multiple times. Mii gunner is quite heavy/slow and does NOT like being near the edge of the screen. I was using the wrong recovery, oops.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I DM'd you to expand upon this, but I suppose I'll reply here too. It seems you like characters who are able to put in consistent work in neutral, but still have the necessary follow-up ability to well in advantage once then win neutral.. and at least also having a few tools to help you escape disadvantage.. all while having a good ledge / edge game. There's a few characters who fit this bill, but before I get into that I'm gonna add my worthless, biased opinion from one man on the internet tier list to give you an idea of where I think the characters I am about to discuss place in relation to others (this list IS ordered) just for reference. It'll be an attachment to this post.

Going forward, I will say Samus / Dark Samus aren't as hopeless as you may first think. Yes they are VERY neutral focused characters that don't have a ton of options in terms of immediate reactions or ground play.. however they have quite nice punish options and if you're the type of player with a strong neutral / zoning game and have good reads / punishes.. these characters get a LOT of mileage. They do fall short in some areas though, hurting them in the meta.

Cloud is a wonderful choice (not just bias, I swear) from what you say you like. Why? Here's why. Cloud has a projectile, yes it's A projectile, singular.. but it's a fairly good one. No it's not the best in the game, BUT it is irritating as hell and has a fun habit of hugging the surface it travels upon.. making stages such as Lylat much easier to irritate people on. It can also be turned into a potential kill / hard punish move with Limit charge. In addition to blade beam (neutral B move) as a projectile, you have access to cross slash (side B move) as a wonderful punish / finisher move that does very nice damage.. it also turns into Cloud's best kill option with Limit. It has several confirms / follow-through options and can also be used to momentum stall when Cloud is airborne. Your Up-B is where a lot of people get nervous, though..

Climhazzard (Up B move) isn't the best recovery in the game, no.. but it isn't the worst either. It DOES become one of the best recoveries in the game with Limit, however.. and paired with things such as Cloud's wall jump, amazing aerial capability and side B stalls.. any decent Cloud can make it back to the stage most of the time as coming out to edge guard him and face his Texas-sized aerial disjoints can be scary. He can also throw blade beams onto the stage as he comes back to make recovering even easier.. and that wall jump lets you do fun things such as BAir recover right onto the edge of the stage. Climhazzard can also be a viable punish / mixup antiair move in some situations, and the Limit version can even be a decent kill option at times. Down B charges your Limit (as does other factors) but when you have Limit charge it becomes a move called Finishing Touch.

This move is a gigantic tornado with a hitbox the size of a house and I believe a windbox as well. It kills VERY early, and it has at least two true / fairly true confirms that I've found.. at LEAST. It can even be a viable mixup to punish an aggressive opponent who isn't thinking clearly, netting stupid early kills. NEVER use this move if you don't KNOW you can kill with it however, as it does piss damage (like 1% or less) and is ALL knockback.

Otherwise he has some of the best aerials in the game to work with, all hard hitting with kill potential and very good range. Moves such as FAir and DAir meteor / spike when sweet spotted, and BAir kills fairly consistently when on the side of the stage above 80% or so. You can juggle the ever living hell out of people with his UAir as well due to how the hitbox lingers.. but this endlag can screw you too so be warned of that. His tilt attacks are also very good. You can string several UTilts into things such as NAir and DAir, his DTilt also sets up several things such as short combos and offstage FAir dunks. He also sports one of the fastest dashes in the game (4th overall with Limit, I believe) and is a fast faller with good aerial mobility overall. He also has a semi-viable waveland.. especially with Limit.

Cloud has some of the best range in the entire game, and he has good kill power / options to boot. Hell, FSmash alone kills mad early (I've killed with it at like 22% on the edge) as does BAir off the edge. Finishing Touch is ridiculous.. and he's a sword character WITH A PROJECTILE. Corrin has a few similar properties, but doesn't have anywhere near as much power as Cloud and is also lacking in range / speed compared to him.



That said, that's one example and lord knows it DOES have some bias in it as I'm a Cloud main. Toon Link is by far the weakest of the 3 Links, I would recommend looking into Adult Link if you like his play-style but want a more generally viable character. Young Link has similar tools, but overall a different focus. I'll go into this more with you in DM's as to not write more books than I already have in this thread.

 

[Chewshoe]

So as my sidebar/signature suggests, I'm currently maining Wolf and Lucario, but they're just not doing it for me. I mained Game & Watch in Smash 4, and I really liked how he played. However, with grabbing having been nerfed, and GW's dthrow also being nerfed, he's also not cutting it in Ultimate. I'm open to suggestions, but I prefer lighter characters that are pretty solid but not overpowered. Good recovery is a must-have.

 

[DelugeFGC]

G&W is probably one of the worst if not THE worst character in Ult right now with the current meta, his roll alone could make a man cry and that new FAir is just abysmal.

Young Link is different to the other two Links by a good deal because he's more rush-down focused and his projectiles serve more-so as confirms and combo starters BUT can still have zoning application as well. He's lightweight, fast and a real threat in the right hands. Very different playstyle to regular and Toon Link. I recommend giving him a try because he's surprised nearly everyone I've recommended him to. His tether grab is also disgustingly long.

 

[Chewshoe]

I get G&W is pretty low on the tier lists even though i dont really think that should matter, as GW was buffed from S4 to Ultimate I just dropped him in Ultimate because most of his combos are gone now.

I'm sure I'll find my true main after all the DLC drops, but I've been considering these characters so far:

Chrom. He's got better range than Roy it seems, so I can space him better because of it and not have to face any real penalties? The only actual downside to Chrom is his recovery is very not good horizontally. Which is a huge downside because good recovery is a must-have for me.

Wii Fit Trainer. A solid zoning character that not only heals but can also buff. Nice and lightweight, seems like combos are fairly good, has good recovery, but also floaty which can be good but at the same time also really bad depending on the characters I play against.

Toon Link. Being a solid zoner character, but he doesn't play the same as the other Links at the same time. I like how Toon Link is more unique in Ultimate so he's not just another clone. His recovery is good, he has some kill potential, but his projectiles are slow as balls.

Any of the Mii Fighters. They're all solid characters tailored to a player's liking as much as they can get, with the many different combinations of special moves that they have for each. The problem with the Mii Fighters is that their attacks seem to come out pretty dang slow. But they're a nice comfortable weight and have solid recovery. Not quite sure about their combo game though.

Sheik. As fun as Sheik is, she's got the solid combo game, solid recovery, good speed, fairly lightweight but also seems to be a fastfaller? (correct me if im wrong on that one.) Sheik's biggest issue is that her attacks do little to no damage whatsoever so I could get some amazing 15-hit combo off and only do like 20 damage. Kinda questionable if she's still worth going for. If Sheik's damage output didn't suck, I'd probably be maining her right now.

Incineroar. A very unique character that I've only seen in my local tournament scene once. Incineroar is a solid pick for a powerhouse character that has a lot of grab options and a "get off me" down-b. He kills very early, his recovery is solid vertically but about as solid as Little Mac when it comes to horizontal recovery (except side-b is regained when you get hit), recovering horizontally with Incineroar is also pretty hard to intercept if you don't have a ton of range as well. The issue with Incineroar is his movement is too slow.

Fox. People say Fox is amazing, and I can see where they're coming from if they mean recovery. He's a fast faller with amazing vertical and horizontal recovery, awesome aerial game, a reflector to tell projectile characters they're not allowed to hit you, a good grab game, amazing neutral, lots of combo strings, etc. The issue with Fox though is that even though he kills early, he also dies early. Also all of his skins suck.

Falco. Similar to Fox but seems better in the air, while worse on the ground. At least he has better skins.

Pac-Man. A solid zoner character that received a huge buff from Smash 4 to Ultimate. He has good recovery, can actually grab, a solid combo game, and pretty decent neutral. No actual downside except for the possibility of down-b backfiring. Yet again, I also don't know very much about Pac-Man.

Shulk. Holy cow that sword range. He's got good combos, more range on his sword than Ike does, solid recovery, attacks come out faster than Ike, huge counter window, etc. Monado Arts can cover his usual weaknesses, but it also creates new weaknesses at that. my big issue with Shulk is that he moves a bit slowly. I honestly don't really know if I'm feeling it or not.

Sonic. A solid character overall. Good recovery, great speed, great combo strings in both the air and on the ground, good throws, but some of his attacks are stupid laggy like his dash grab. Sonic's big issue is that he has no way to deal with projectile camping, so he's highly vulnerable to attacks with a lot of range like Lucario's Aura Sphere.