Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

So what you're saying is... MGS2 Raiden echo?

No...oh God no

♫ Sing... sing a song... sing out loud... sing out strong...
Sing of good things, not bad... Sing of happy, not sad...
Sing... sing a song... make it simple, to last your whole life long!
Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear...
Just sing... sing a song.
*trumpets*

Okay, with that out the way...

But Luigi, The Boss is a fighteeeer, and we already have Big Boss in the form of Snake's alts...!

Unless you mean Old Big Boss. Who'd be pretty cool, because that would be unique to Smash.

We don't have Big Boss in Snake's alts though.
Use Venom Snake for the model and you're good.

Also I don't think the Boss uses the arsenal Snake does.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

So I guess I can join this Smash timeline thing that people are doing.

Smash 64: I wasn't born yet when it came out and I played it after Melee, so this one doesn't count.

Melee: First Smash Bros. game. Got it when I was very young. Recognized , since I had really only heard of Mario and Pokemon at that point. It was one of my first Gamcube games, but I owned Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Pokemon Channel beforehand.

Brawl: At this point, I had played a lot more games, but I was still in elementary school when Brawl came out. It was the first game I ever got on launch day. Out of the newcomers, I recognized , since I either knew about or played a game they were in (Wario and Diddy Kong in various Mario games, Meta Knight and Dedede in Kirby Air Ride, Sonic in various Sonic games, Pokemon Trainer and Lucario from various Pokemon media, Olimar from Pikmin 2, and R.O.B. from Mario Kart DS).

Smash 4: The first game I actively speculated for (see my join date). Found these boards pretty close to E3 of 2013 while I was desperate for more info. So, I recognized every newcomer when they showed up except , who I really didn't care to notice existed even though I owned Wii Fit.

Ultimate: I knew I would be in college by the time a new Smash Bros. game came out, and that is what happened. Still participated in speculation, so I expected to know every newcomer when they showed up. And then was revealed and I was proven wrong.

Thanks for making me feel old after seeing this lmao

64: 6
Melee: 8
Brawl: 15
Wii U/3DS: 21
Ultimate: will be 26

 

[Iridium]

The thought came to me again how fortunate I am to have so many characters to finally try out.



I started on 4. I knew about the others, but I didn't have a system or the actual game itself to play them on. I'm just waiting so I can get that limited edition copy, and finally touch a GameCube controller.

Edit: I also never bought DLC. The characters I listed as mains for some games are the ones I would main if I picked them (64-Brawl).

 

[KMDP]

No...oh God no

We don't have Big Boss in Snake's alts though.
Use Venom Snake for the model and you're good.

Also I don't think the Boss uses the arsenal Snake does.

Ahem.

All of Snake's alts are based on camo from MGS3 (it's not technically Big Boss, but he also has the beard).
Also, about the arsenal thing, clones don't have to make sense if they make sense. (Man, that sounds weird).

Col. Campbell: *shakes violently as The Boss uses equipment that wasn't made in the 60s*

Of course, the Boss could just use 1960s versions of Snake's equipment. C3 instead of C4, the Fulton Extraction tool instead of the Cipher. The only one without an equivalent would be the Nikita, but you could replace that with the RPG-7.

 

[Luigi The President]

Ahem.

All of Snake's alts are based on camo from MGS3 (it's not technically Big Boss, but he also has the beard).
Also, about the arsenal thing, clones don't have to make sense if they make sense. (Man, that sounds weird).

Col. Campbell: *shakes violently as The Boss uses equipment that wasn't made in the 60s*

Of course, the Boss could just use 1960s versions of Snake's equipment. C3 instead of C4, the Fulton Extraction tool instead of the Cipher. The only one without an equivalent would be the Nikita, but you could replace that with the RPG-7.

I'm sorry KM, not catching on to the "don't have to make sense if they make sense" bit.

Honestly, I don't expect any MGS Echoes at all, so I'd be glad to have The Boss, Big Boss, or anyone else.
Besides MGS2 Raiden.
Never.

 

[Apollo500]

The thought came to me again how fortunate I am to have so many characters to finally try out.

I couldn't agree more. There are so many characters I'm excited to play as in Ultimate that my head starts to spin when I try to think about all of them. And I mean that in a good way!

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

Let me do this right now.

Years of age --- Game
0- Smash 64. (Wasn't born around that time)
5- Melee (Was only 1 when Melee was out, so I obviously didn't get to play it until I was 5.)
8- Brawl
14- Smash Wii U/3DS
18- Ultimate

Gosh i'm young.

 

[Iridium]

Ahem.

All of Snake's alts are based on camo from MGS3 (it's not technically Big Boss, but he also has the beard).
Also, about the arsenal thing, clones don't have to make sense if they make sense. (Man, that sounds weird).

Col. Campbell: *shakes violently as The Boss uses equipment that wasn't made in the 60s*

Of course, the Boss could just use 1960s versions of Snake's equipment. C3 instead of C4, the Fulton Extraction tool instead of the Cipher. The only one without an equivalent would be the Nikita, but you could replace that with the RPG-7.

You inadvertently reminded me of how ugly Brawl's renders were. Seriously, Toon Link's really stands out as unappealing, and Link just looks weird, although 4's is definitely better (and just good). Mario looks bad, although Kirby is more less the same.

Not sure how many other people agree, but eh.

 

[KMDP]

I'm sorry KM, not catching on to the "don't have to make sense if they make sense" bit.

Honestly, I don't expect any MGS Echoes at all, so I'd be glad to have The Boss, Big Boss, or anyone else.
Besides MGS2 Raiden.
Never.

What I mean is that canon can be stretched a little if the clone makes sense (Lucina canonically doesn't fight like Marth, but it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint and the fact that Lucina pretended to be Marth, and that makes a good in-joke).

Also, you're right that MGS Echoes are unlikely.

MGS2 Raiden ain't so bad. I mean, Cyborg Raiden is better, but still...
---
As an aside, Snake still has his Naked Snake colours in Ultimate.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think Snake actually looks weird in Ultimate becase his beard looks drawn on for some reason.

Also...no booty obviously.

 

[Iridium]

I also wonder, for those who play Snake (and main him), do any of think he plays the way he's supposed to, or no?

Edit: Or the way he should?

 

[Luigi The President]

What I mean is that canon can be stretched a little if the clone makes sense (Lucina canonically doesn't fight like Marth, but it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint and the fact that Lucina pretended to be Marth, and that makes a good in-joke).

Also, you're right that MGS Echoes are unlikely.

MGS2 Raiden ain't so bad. I mean, Cyborg Raiden is better, but still...
---
As an aside, Snake still has his Naked Snake colours in Ultimate.

Makes sense!

Cyborg Raiden would just be infinitely better, but super unlikely.

 

[Volodya]

All the hate for MGS2 Raiden shows y'all have terrible taste. And Liquid would be the most fun Snake echo.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I was a couple months away from turning 4 when Smash 64 came out. I remember playing it but it couldn't have been when it came out. My memory of it is so fuzzy but I'm 100% sure I did play it.

 

[Zinith]

So I guess I can join this Smash timeline thing that people are doing.

Smash 64: I wasn't born yet when it came out and I played it after Melee, so this one doesn't count.

Melee: First Smash Bros. game. Got it when I was very young. Recognized , since I had really only heard of Mario and Pokemon at that point. It was one of my first Gamcube games, but I owned Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Pokemon Channel beforehand.

Brawl: At this point, I had played a lot more games, but I was still in elementary school when Brawl came out. It was the first game I ever got on launch day. Out of the newcomers, I recognized , since I either knew about or played a game they were in (Wario and Diddy Kong in various Mario games, Meta Knight and Dedede in Kirby Air Ride, Sonic in various Sonic games, Pokemon Trainer and Lucario from various Pokemon media, Olimar from Pikmin 2, and R.O.B. from Mario Kart DS).

Smash 4: The first game I actively speculated for (see my join date). Found these boards pretty close to E3 of 2013 while I was desperate for more info. So, I recognized every newcomer when they showed up except , who I really didn't care to notice existed even though I owned Wii Fit.

Ultimate: I knew I would be in college by the time a new Smash Bros. game came out, and that is what happened. Still participated in speculation, so I expected to know every newcomer when they showed up. And then was revealed and I was proven wrong.

64: 8 (played it at my next door neighbors house as I owned a PlayStation at the time)
Melee: 10
Brawl: 17
Smash 4: 23
Ultimate: 27

 

[Luigi The President]

All the hate for MGS2 Raiden shows y'all have terrible taste. And Liquid would be the most fun Snake echo.

It's more that I'd rather Raiden be the amazing, badass, ninja, cyborg thing he is in Rising rather than a simple Echo.
He could even transform into Jack the Ripper.
It'd just be a waste, not that I hate MGS2 Raiden.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I had an older brother so every game I owned were really just games he owned.

64 though, that was the first game I ever got that was mine.

I don't remember what I played though. Ever since Melee I've been a Ices main, but in Sm4sh I played Marth and Little Mac

 

[sdpdude9]

Here's my recognition of characters.

Smash 64: I was only 7, but rented it from the video store all the time.

Melee: I was 10, a friend had the game right when it came out.

Brawl: Into speculation somewhat at this point. Read the site every morning.

Sm4sh: Well into speculation. But didn't know these characters, though I had heard about Shulk.

Ultimate: Only haven't known

 

[KMDP]

Makes sense!

Cyborg Raiden would just be infinitely better, but super unlikely.

Lyn with Raiden echo.

...What, I can make crazy suggestions too.
---
I'm actually kind of sad that Snake doesn't have the CCCP Sneaking Suit or the Tux. I mean, his black one is close to Big Boss' Sneaking suit, but it's not the same.

By the CCCP Sneaking Suit I mean this one.

 

[Luigi The President]

Lyn with Raiden echo.

...What, I can make crazy suggestions too.
---
I'm actually kind of sad that Snake doesn't have the CCCP Sneaking Suit or the Tux. I mean, his black one is close to Big Boss' Sneaking suit, but it's not the same.

By the CCCP Sneaking Suit I mean this one.

This was a big missed alt costume imo.
Honestly, there seems to be a lotta those this game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I also wonder, for those who play Snake (and main him), do any of think he plays the way he's supposed to, or no?

It is weird that he has no guns. And it's not like the game doesn't allow ballistic weapons because Bayonetta uses them.

At the very least, I'm surprised he doesn't use his tranq gun.

 

[KMDP]

This was a big missed alt costume imo.
Honestly, there seems to be a lotta those this game.

Which is why we need more than 8 alts!

Make it 12, Sakurai!

It is weird that he has no guns. And it's not like the game doesn't allow ballistic weapons because Bayonetta uses them.

At the very least, I'm surprised he doesn't use his tranq gun.

He should have had the EZ gun.

 

[Zinith]

As for me recognizing characters, the only characters I really didn't know about from each installment are the Fire Emblem characters, Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.

 

[Luigi The President]

Which is why we need more than 8 alts!

Make it 12, Sakurai!

He should have had the EZ gun.

Absolutely to both!

 

[Enchess]

As for me recognizing characters, the only characters I really didn't know about from each installment are the Fire Emblem characters, Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.

Pretty similar to mine.
is the full list of everyone I didn't know before Smash. Oddly, I was huge into F-Zero on SNES. Never knew who was driving the car

 

[Iridium]

So I guess I can join this Smash timeline thing that people are doing.

Smash 64: I wasn't born yet when it came out and I played it after Melee, so this one doesn't count.

Melee: First Smash Bros. game. Got it when I was very young. Recognized , since I had really only heard of Mario and Pokemon at that point. It was one of my first Gamcube games, but I owned Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Pokemon Channel beforehand.

Brawl: At this point, I had played a lot more games, but I was still in elementary school when Brawl came out. It was the first game I ever got on launch day. Out of the newcomers, I recognized , since I either knew about or played a game they were in (Wario and Diddy Kong in various Mario games, Meta Knight and Dedede in Kirby Air Ride, Sonic in various Sonic games, Pokemon Trainer and Lucario from various Pokemon media, Olimar from Pikmin 2, and R.O.B. from Mario Kart DS).

Smash 4: The first game I actively speculated for (see my join date). Found these boards pretty close to E3 of 2013 while I was desperate for more info. So, I recognized every newcomer when they showed up except , who I really didn't care to notice existed even though I owned Wii Fit.

Ultimate: I knew I would be in college by the time a new Smash Bros. game came out, and that is what happened. Still participated in speculation, so I expected to know every newcomer when they showed up. And then was revealed and I was proven wrong.

Hmmm.

64: N/A, pretty much.

Melee: Also N/A (literally a year older than me, never touched it).

Brawl: Never touched it (6 by the end of the year), but I was pretty young when I saw what I think was an ad for it.

4: First game I touched (12, awkwardly). Meta Knight really got me wanting to play it (I didn't know about Brawl Meta Knight), and I got it on my birthday. Greninja was the first character I played, although I have early memories of Charizard (avid Pokémon fan here), but Link was the first character I decided to main, and I play a lot of characters in my spare time.

Ultimate: 15 (turning 16 later). I plan on maining 7 characters: Link, Greninja, Lucario, Mewtwo, Pit, Toon Link and Marth. My secondary is a lot bigger, so that would take a while to type, although you can check my signature. The game comes out after my birthday, so I can try to get it as a late birthday gift (aiming for limited edition). I get to play every character that has been in Smash (even if I don't like them), so it's cool that I can at least try them out.

 

[KMDP]

Part of the reason I think Snake doesn't have guns, besides the fact that they may or may not have been allowed to give him ballistic weapons. Is that:

A) Snake would have probably been super overpowered if he could just put characters to sleep on command.
B) It wouldn't be immediately apparent that Snake is firing a non-lethal weapon (one modified from an actually lethal weapon). That would be something stated in the trophies, which kids might not be inclined to read. Seeing a firearm shoot and hit someone and have it put them to sleep is... not something you want kids to try and replicate, let's just say that.

 

[OdnetninAges]

I'm gonna be real.... I wish that wasn't the case for Lego Dimensions because this sounds like baby's first Sonic song.

TBH, I kinda like it whenever they do original tracks (or even semi-original tracks) for Green Hill. There's only so many times you can remix the original song and still have it sound great after all. (Although I think the Mania remixes blow the original out of the water, especially Act 2.)

Jun Senoue did an original track for Green Hill in Fighting Climax that samples some of his other songs (Lost Labyrinth Act 1, Seaside Hill, etc.) and I think it sounds great.

I used to dislike the Lego Dimensions version, but it's kind of grown on me. Can't really say the same about Chemeical Plant, Lava Reef or the others though.

If the "unlock via amiibo" thing is legit, that's great.

That means I can immediately unlock Chrom without having to wait.

Same here, bro.

I agree, 100%. It would undermine the attention of the indies.
It would be dragging away all the attention.

I don't believe it will happen. I don't expect it to happen.
I don't even think I want it to happen.

Should it happen tho. Then I would not be surprised. Because all the "rules" and "patterns" from Melee til' now, all out the window, created by us speculators to try solve a mind case, which would lead to a falling spiral.

So, yeah. I agree with you all, don't you doubt a second on that, but I just leave it at that.

I feel like a lot of people forget this, but a CommanderVideo trophy was revealed for Smash in a Nindies section of a Direct. (Or at least I believe it was a Nindies section. I know it was in a Direct, and the reveal was in relation to "Nintendo's close partnership with indies" or something like that.)

Maybe they'll do the same thing for Ultimate in the upcoming Nindies Direct, but with Shantae or Gunvolt or something this time. I don't see a playable reveal happening at all.

 

[Iridium]

Part of the reason I think Snake doesn't have guns, besides the fact that they may or may not have been allowed to give him ballistic weapons. Is that:

A) Snake would have probably been super overpowered if he could just put characters to sleep on command.
B) It wouldn't be immediately apparent that Snake is firing a non-lethal weapon (one modified from an actually lethal weapon). That would be something stated in the trophies, which kids might not be inclined to read. Seeing a firearm shoot and hit someone and have it put them to sleep is... not something you want kids to try and replicate, let's just say that.

Imagine if Link had Flurry Rush, Perfect Dodge and Perfect Guard in Smash. I can see the complaints.

 

[Will]

Part of the reason I think Snake doesn't have guns, besides the fact that they may or may not have been allowed to give him ballistic weapons. Is that:

A) Snake would have probably been super overpowered if he could just put characters to sleep on command.
B) It wouldn't be immediately apparent that Snake is firing a non-lethal weapon (one modified from an actually lethal weapon). That would be something stated in the trophies, which kids might not be inclined to read. Seeing a firearm shoot and hit someone and have it put them to sleep is... not something you want kids to try and replicate, let's just say that.

Aren't you on the side that little kids play CoD and GTA anyway? I know a few who own airsoft and their age isn't even double digits yet.

 

[KMDP]

Imagine if Link had Flurry Rush, Perfect Dodge and Perfect Guard in Smash. I can see the complaints.

Oh god, if perfect shielding also reflected projectiles, but only the Links could do that. And if Link had Witch Time as his dodge. Man...

Aren't you on the side that little kids play CoD and GTA anyway? I know a few who own airsoft and their age isn't even double digits yet.

...Yes, but that doesn't change my point, now does it.

Nintendo is (or is generally perceived to be) a family-friendly company, this is different from the CoD devs (there are many and I don't want to name them all) and Rockstar, who aren't trying to appeal to children (the fact that they do inadvertantly is out of their control).

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's overly cynical and flat out untrue to assume all kids these days play CoD and drop F-bombs left and right, it's just that a somewhat frightening amount of them do.

 

[Lyndis_]

MGS2 Raiden echo to and no unique cyborg Raiden > No MGS2 Raiden echo and no unique cyborg Raiden

Also MGS2 Raiden would be great in codec calls if they bring them back IMHO

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

It's overly cynical and flat out untrue to assume all kids these days play CoD and drop F-bombs left and right, it's just that a somewhat frightening amount of them do.

What bothers me isn't that kids do it, kids are stupid, they've always sworn like sailors when they think they can get away with it.

The problem is gaming/online communities don't exactly do anything about it. In fact they basically encourage them.

Toxicity is literally everywhere

 

[Omega Tyrant]

What insane people would be ranking characters who have never been played publicly? R.O.B. isn't in the demo; it makes no sense for him to be bottom 10 already especially given that he doesn't have a negative history (he's not a bad character in either Brawl or 4, just not a top character either). It's even worse because R.O.B. managed to be at least somewhat above average in Brawl and 4 despite the focus of both metas ending up being unfavorable to him which to me suggests his kit has a lot more inherent upside than downside versus past results.

Dthrow to usmash is not a terrible argument, and yeah, that's about Ness bthrow kill ranges which would be fantastic since that's absolute top of the line kill throw potential, but grounding is pretty easy to mash out of in 4 and somehow I imagine something is going to work out just wrong for that to kill so easily. Definitely you're right that this is something to look out for and something very much worth a very early test when the game launches; I agree that this is the sort of thing that can make a top tier if it works out.



Good call on the fact check; I had been relying on intuition and never realized R.O.B.'s standing grab was actually pretty small. That being said, I'm seeing basically two sources here that paint very different stories. There's this video which is defining grab range as the difference between the furthest point of your character's bump collision and the furthest point of the grabbox:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOXQJKrx_wQ

That suggests R.O.B. is the single worst in the game.

Then we have this source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3xxw0z/ranking_of_all_characters_grab_ranges_in_smash_4/

This measures the difference between the furthest point of the character's hurtbox and the grab range. Due to R.O.B.'s body shape that has most of his "front" body not really hittable since it's mostly air, this produces a VERY different result for him putting him at rank 30 out of 53 (they excluded Miis and this was from before Corrin and Bayonetta were introduced, though I don't think R.O.B. got a grab range nerf in those last few patches?). It's still a good fact check since he's below average either way, but it seems like depending on your measurement methodology he's either slightly below average or the worst in the game which is a pretty significant difference. In practice the hurtbox is probably more meaningful than the bump collision so I feel like "slightly below average" is probably closer to accurate than worst in the game? I dunno; it would be a really good topic to do a deep dive into if I still was trying to really get better at Smash 4.

Neither source considered running grabs at all either (or pivot grabs) which is also pretty significant since frequently R.O.B. will rely on his running grab for those mid-range situations. I honestly wasn't able to find any data on these grabs at all; it was very disappointing, but I'm 100% confident it's not an identical ranking to standing grabs. It was actually extremely surprising to me that seemingly no one over the years has ever measured that, but if I'm wrong and just didn't find it, definitely let me know.

Definitely I should put some work into doing some more proper analysis of Ultimate when it comes out. The results of my search for this data to look into your claims were mostly just disappointing in how sparse data really was, but this stuff really does matter a lot.

Kurogane's grab range data is flawed, as it's only focused on the length of the grab's hitbox measured in a vacuum, with no regards to its actual location on the character; the problem with ROB's grab isn't that the hitbox itself is short, but that most of the hitbox is located inside of him, meaning the actual grab reach from his model is extremely short, giving him the worst actual grab reach in the game. Here is how his grab hitbox looks like:

The same problem also extends to his dash grab and pivot grab.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Speaking of kids, it's Ness' turn today.

 

[Will]

It's overly cynical and flat out untrue to assume all kids these days play CoD and drop F-bombs left and right, it's just that a somewhat frightening amount of them do.

That's entirely true, not every kid plays either of those games!

Now they all play Fortnite.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Finally some Earthbound content on the blog.

 

[KMDP]

It's overly cynical and flat out untrue to assume all kids these days play CoD and drop F-bombs left and right, it's just that a somewhat frightening amount of them do.

You wouldn't know people, even kids, can have different tastes from each other when it comes to video games listening to the mainstream media.

Me? I had no interest in shooters as a kid, and I still don't (the sole exception is Metal Gear, that's it, and I don't like Metal Gear for the shooting anyway).

I preferred platformers (Sonic and Mario), Pokémon and Puzzle Games (Bust-a-Move, Panel de Pon and Puyo Puyo)... also Harvest Moon.

What bothers me isn't that kids do it, kids are stupid, they've always sworn like sailors when they think they can get away with it.

The problem is gaming/online communities don't exactly do anything about it. In fact they basically encourage them.

Toxicity is literally everywhere

It sounds like a "Not My Problem" thing.

 

[RandomAce]

Kurogane's grab range data is flawed, as it's only focused on the length of the grab's hitbox measured in a vacuum, with no regards to its actual location on the character; the problem with ROB's grab isn't that the hitbox itself is short, but that most of the hitbox is located inside of him, meaning the actual grab reach from his model is extremely short, giving him the worst grab reach in the game. Here is how his grab hitbox looks like:

The same problem also extends to his dash grab and pivot grab.

Smash 4 has the most questionable of hotboxes. What were the programmers even thinking on some of them?

In any case, I’m hoping that this game doesn’t have the many questionable hitboxes (or any) than Smash 4.