Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

btw, I ain't just talking about "character reps." I'm talking about representation in general

 

[DarkFalcon]

btw, I ain't just talking about "character reps." I'm talking about representation in general

Final Fantasy then. 1 stage, 1 character, 2 songs. Ridiculous. Wasn't big on FF growing up, but that's as bare minimum as it gets.

 

[RandomAce]

So now that Metroid and Donkey Kong got more attention in this game than previously, what's the next "underrepresented" series?

Probably Xenoblade.

There’s a lot of awesome content to pull from X and 2, it would be a missed opportunity to not include them, although 2 can probably wait for later.

Although, if I don’t get a King K. Rool pirate ship stage (Gallegeon Plank?) then I would get disappointed that Sakurai missed the chance to include a non-jungle DK stage.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

So competitively both stages are unplayable and instant bans in any Smash game. However, Mushroom Kingdom 64 is a lot of fun if you aren't serious. The pipes are hilarious especially at low levels where being randomly dropped in the pit really sucks, and if you aren't willing to "risk" the pipes, the stage creates a lot of really unique interactive fights. Mushroom Kingdom I, when you aren't just camping the walk-offs, is basically endless teching (or missing techs and just bouncing off breakable blocks to still live forever) and tons of running away because the stage is a mixed series of obvious loops with strong camping positions everywhere thanks to the pit locations. Mushroom Kingdom 64 is a stage not for competitive players that has value being in the game; Mushroom Kingdom I would add nothing to the game just like it added nothing to Melee other than a now-redundant Mario 1 aesthetic.

i want it.

Then again, I want every stage. Miiverse included. Give me Pyrosphere except with no hazards.

Most importantly, though, give me Mute City (Melee)

Considering the long standing fan request is assist trophied.

Can't see us getting even an echo for Star Fox.

okay so here's the thing about Echo's that'll make me sound like a cranky old man before/during release just as much as Amazing Ampharos having to repeat the whole thing about the Gardevoir Datamine "Leak":

start considering echo's on their own playing field than playable characters. it'll help a lot. here's what echo's are: glorified alt costumes with some audio/animation + small Gameplay tweaks. I'm not saying to start expecting 20 echo's, but it's not unreasonable to see almost any franchise on the roster getting an Echo

 

[Iridium]

btw, I ain't just talking about "character reps." I'm talking about representation in general

Well, there's not much I can say for Duck Hunt at all. R.O.B. is pretty lonely too . . .

 

[Enchess]

Of the OG's, Yoshi and F-Zero. Though Yoshi probably would only get more representation with stages and F-Zero while there's options a lot of people probably don't know of F-Zero characters outside of Captain Falcon. I'm not too versed in them either.

I feel like F-Zero has done fine for itself. As a racing game, characters don't matter much. Cpt Falcon is enough. Stages and Music are where it needs it's representation and it's done great there.

 

[Zinith]

Well as for me:

Yoshi, of course, moving on

Xenoblade, not in terms of characters per se but just to see beyond the series outside of the first one. A Xenoblade X stage isn't too much to ask is it?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Each echo has been a fan want save Richter.

Lol. We're not getting some random echo that no one asked for I assure you.

Shadow, Ninten, Isabelle, etc. The people commonly asked for with echoes and talked about for echoes are fan wants for a reason, because that is what Sakurai has shown us.

There could be some other unpredictable ones like Richter, but I very much doubt there's many of them like Richter.

 

[Dixie Kong]

Now on the discussion of Pokemon


Let's say you were the person to introduce two new Pokemon into Ultimate. One Pokemon must be from Gen 1 that would be considered the Final Gen 1 Pokemon to ever be in Smash for the next 20 years or so. The other Pokemon you introduce must be outside of Gen 1. Who would you pick?


Gen 1: Gengar

Non Gen 1: Sceptile

Ooh, tough, as I really want both Meowth and Raichu. (Mew also) For outside gen 1, Blaziken!

 

[Kamikazek]

Gen 1 isn't difficult but it's not the way you're describing the vermillion gym should have granted estoppel for that particular strategy as electric type Pokemon are used.

If you thought gen 1 was easy you haven't played gen 6 clearly then lol. Most would agree even die hard fans that earlier gens are more difficult.

By Vermillion gym my Squirtle was a Blastiose and could outspeed and oneshot all of Serge's pokemon, so being weak to electric attacks was irrelevant. Using one pokemon completely breaks the game. I'm not saying the new games aren't easier if played the intended way obviously they are but "nowadays you can beat the whole game with just your starter" is a funny example to give because just using your starter is the exact way to make Gen 1 just as easy as Gen 6.

And actually on that note Gen 6 was the hardest gen for me because I realized early on they gave you way more exp than you need and I started using a rotating team of 18 different Pokémon who I all kept at the same level and by the end I was severely under leveled. Again though that's not intentended play I literally had to deliberately make the game harder for myself and even then it wasn't that hard just harder than the other Pokémon games.

 

[Iridium]

Well as for me:

Yoshi, of course, moving on

Xenoblade, not in terms of characters per se but just to see beyond the series outside of the first one. A Xenoblade X stage isn't too much to ask is it?

Castlevania has been around in actuality for only a few days for us, and it has way more content as of right now. Not a bad thing, but some franchises get left behind.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Honestly I think one of the things that keeps Zoroark as a pokeball (among a number of other things, don't worry I know) is that it'd be hard to find a way to implement the illusion ability. properly. Like how would that even work in smash brothers? Anyways, it'd be cool to see gen 5 in smash playable but I wouldn't put money on it.

The big thing that prevented Zoroark from being playable in Smash is simply timing; Smash 4's project plan started late enough where it was already long established that Zoroark failed to replicate Lucario's success and was no longer being pushed by TPC, while it was close enough to gen 6's release that Sakurai was willing to take a gen 6 mon to keep relevant with his pokemon choice. Then Zoroark isn't popular enough to get it attention for Smash in spite of relevance, Zoroark didn't even make it into Pokken for example.

If Smash 4 started development a couple years earlier or even just a year earlier, I think we likely would have had Zoroark in Smash (though there is still the chance Sakurai could have went with another gen 5 pokemon instead like Genesect or Victini or some Sakurai pick).

I think it would be really difficult to implement Illusion in Smash in an interesting manner, but Zoroark probably didn't even get far enough in the consideration stage for that to matter.

 

[Zinith]

Castlevania has been around in actuality for only a few days for us, and it has way more content as of right now. Not a bad thing, but some franchises get left behind.

Definitely not a bad thing. Castlevania is awesome!!!

 

[Enchess]

Well as for me:

Yoshi, of course, moving on

Xenoblade, not in terms of characters per se but just to see beyond the series outside of the first one. A Xenoblade X stage isn't too much to ask is it?

Yoshi has so much stage potential, it's a shame how samey it's been. Wooly World provided some much needed Yoshi variety, but then...

Xenoblade is probably the best Nintendo series for potential stages in my mind. They barely scratched the surface. I'd like another rep, but I'd be more than happy with a stage from any of the 3 games (although it's time for X to get some love I think)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So today's character on the blog is Richter. This should have been obvious enough, but apparently he is gameplay unique from Simon (some people were hung up on him just being animations that don't matter):

Richter from the Castlevania series joins the battle as Simon's echo fighter! His basic attacks are the same as Simon's, but with subtle variations. In addition to that, his holy water is a different color.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Give me Mor Ardain from Xenoblade 2 just for that music.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Hey guys

Call me Fox Mulder

View attachment 157422

Because I want to believe

Believe forever fellow Smasher

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

btw, I ain't just talking about "character reps." I'm talking about representation in general

oh then yeah definitely Yoshi. FINAL FANTASY too, even though Square's stingy enough to only allow the two songs from Smash 4...

 

[Idon]

So today's character on the blog is Richter. This should have been obvious enough, but apparently he is gameplay unique from Simon (some people were hung up on him just being animations that don't matter):

Richter from the Castlevania series joins the battle as Simon's echo fighter! His basic attacks are the same as Simon's, but with subtle variations. In addition to that, his holy water is a different color.

Subtle variation as large as "lucina no tipper" or as small as "his fire does 1% less"

 

[KMDP]

After another three days. The Supporter Count thread has been updated for August 13th.

You can find it here, same place as before, just with a new name.

And now, I shall attempt to catch up with this thread, I'm more than 15 Pages behind.

 

[Enchess]

Subtle variation as large as "lucina no tipper" or as small as "his fire does 1% less"

Or Ness vs Lucas PK Fire? Its really not a helpful description. You can really stretch what counts as subtle variation a ton....

 

[Dixie Kong]

Besides Rare characters, my most wanted are Elma, Nightmare, Rayman, and Shantae. For Smash 6 Bomberman and Shovel Knight will be my most wanteds.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Subtle variation as large as "lucina no tipper" or as small as "his fire does 1% less"

In the trailers we can see Simon can angle his aerials (he can be seen doing his fair angled up and angled down), is there any footage showing Richter being able to do the same?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Each echo has been a fan want save Richter.

Lol. We're not getting some random echo that no one asked for I assure you.

Shadow, Ninten, Isabelle, etc. The people commonly asked for with echoes and talked about for echoes are fan wants for a reason, because that is what Sakurai has shown us.

There could be some other unpredictable ones like Richter, but I very much doubt there's many of them like Richter.

And I really doubt that there are any surprise ones like Richter, assuming the NeoGaf leak where Soren is a Robin echo isn't legit.

 

[Green_Pikmin*]

Give me Mor Ardain from Xenoblade 2 just for that music.

Cool thing is even if we get just the song on Guar Plains and not Rex, it still wont put him out the question for DLC since different stages can play all songs within the series. So just add Mor Ardain and you got all your Xenoblade music.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I mean he won't be gameplay identical which suggests one will probably be the "better" version. It might be as little as Pit vs Dark Pit, but it will 100% be something other than like different idle poses or such which is what some people thought.

It's not exactly a lot of information, but it's non-zero.

 

[KingBroly]

And I really doubt that there are any surprise ones like Richter, assuming the NeoGaf leak where Soren is a Robin echo isn't legit.

I can see people asking for Richter, but I can't see people asking for Soren. I doubt many know who that is.

 

[Idon]

In the trailers we can see Simon can angle his aerials (he can be seen doing his fair angled up and angled down), is there any footage showing Richter being able to do the same?

Yup, around the 6 minute mark of the direct, you see him angle his fair upwards

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I mean he won't be gameplay identical which suggests one will probably be the "better" version. It might be as little as Pit vs Dark Pit, but it will 100% be something other than like different idle poses or such which is what some people thought.

It's not exactly a lot of information, but it's non-zero.

I can imagine Dark Samus being better than her original counterpart, if only because she has a actual roll :^)

 

[Idon]

I can imagine Dark Samus being better than her original counterpart, if only because she has a actual roll :^)

It could, of course, just be an animation change where everything is the same.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I keep bringing this up, but it's because the leak is gaining credibility.

The Galacta Knight alt for Meta Knight actually has black on the mask to make it even more similar to Galacta Knight.

I REALLY don't think we're getting Galacta Knight.

I think that part of the ResetERA leak is a hard disproving of it

 

[Arcadenik]

Now on the discussion of Pokemon


Let's say you were the person to introduce two new Pokemon into Ultimate. One Pokemon must be from Gen 1 that would be considered the Final Gen 1 Pokemon to ever be in Smash for the next 20 years or so. The other Pokemon you introduce must be outside of Gen 1. Who would you pick?


Gen 1: Gengar

Non Gen 1: Sceptile

Gen 1: Team Rocket

Jessie and James stay in the background like Pokémon Trainer. You play as Meowth. Ekans and Koffing are part of Meowth's moveset!

Non-Gen 1: Decidueye

 

[RandomAce]

I can imagine Dark Samus being better than her original counterpart, if only because she has a actual roll :^)

Poor Samus. They should have at least increased it’s overall speed in order to make Samus more viable.

Dark Samus does look cool though, however I do wish that some of her moves from her AT were reused for her moveset. I’m also sad that her FS is just Samus’s, that was honestly the biggest bummer when I first saw her.

 

[Takasmash]

I Got Three Wishes

Bring Back Rainbow Road
Put Rayman In Smash Ultimate
Please Change Peach Final Smash She's Needs It Really Badly

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Each echo has been a fan want save Richter.

Lol. We're not getting some random echo that no one asked for I assure you.

Shadow, Ninten, Isabelle, etc. The people commonly asked for with echoes and talked about for echoes are fan wants for a reason, because that is what Sakurai has shown us.

There could be some other unpredictable ones like Richter, but I very much doubt there's many of them like Richter.

Richter is a popular character. If we just change it around to "popular in their franchise" (which is also true for the echo's, even more so) nothing shown is really that much of a stretch. Just because they're unpredictable wouldn't mean fans don't want them. If we see, say, a StarFox echo, Louie, some random Fire Emblem Echo, Funky Kong, etc, it'll just mean they were under-discussed as possibilities.

My point being: Are we getting another Echo who's still a popular character in their franchise but not mentioned as much among the fans, particularly those speculating? Possibly. Are we getting some random "Literally who?" from fans of the franchise as an echo? Probably not.

also Ninten has been asked for more b/c he's "the third mother protagonist" more than anything so I got a good chuckle.

 

[Arcadenik]

Please Change Peach Neutral Special and Grabs/Throws Toad Needs It Really Badly

Yes, you are so right. I agree!

 

[SirCamp]

Man do people actually think Pokemon games have good story? I mean the newer ones are much better than gen1, but story is definitely not Pokemon's strong suit. And don't get me wrong I love love love me some Pokemon.

Also I am so over the Pokemon generation wars. Genwunners never really listen to any contradictory arguments anyway, and most haven't even tried newer games either so arguing is rather pointless. Every gen has amazing designs and every gen has terribad designs imo. And I am a genwunner in the sense that I've been around since the beginning.

All this gen 5 have bad designs is such cherry picking nonsense. That gen also has some of the best designs in my opinion. And gen 1 has some of the worst. Gen one has such winners as Jynx the blackface pokemon, Electrode the living upside down pokeball, Magmar the butt head fire duck, Muk the sentient pile of goo, Lickitung the uh... thing with the big tongue, Farfetch'd the Pokemon that only exists because of a pun, Mr. Mime, Hitmonchan, and Hitmonlee the random humanoid Pokemon. People like to complain about how Pokemon designs are just items come to life, or too many pokemon that are just like creepy human shaped things as though these weren't present since the beginning.

People who make these arguments really need to take a step back and realize that, while yes Gen 1 is unarguably the most iconic, it is not inherently better than any other Gen. Gen one is iconic because it was the first. It introduced the concept of Pokemon and the games everyone loves. The rest? That's all subjective. Story, designs, mechanics, music, whatever. Let people like what they like. Hell gen 3 is my least favorite, which as far as I can tell is a wildly unpopular opinion amongst the fanbase. Doesn't mean I have to like it and it certainly doesn't mean gen 3 is actually bad.

I think a huuuuuge aspect of this debate that usually doesn't get acknowledged is simply the sociological aspect. Socially speaking it is much more acceptable to enjoy gen one. That's when the games were introduced and that's what my generation has nostalgia for. Ergo, no judgment. But after a certain point it become transgressive to actually enjoy Pokemon publicly. Pokemon is for kids yadda yadda. SO many people stepped away from it. And honestly whether you play Pokemon still or whether you don't, and whether you believe that attitude affected you, there's no way to actually escape that. There's a reason that so many people rediscover Pokemon upon going to college. At that point most people just don't care anymore. But it's still hard for that sort of view to not get internalized I think. Old Pokemon = good, new = bad. To the point where people argue that Gen 1 has a better story (that is one hill I will die on, gen 1 does not have a good story. I don't think any of them do really, but later Gens actually tried to create meaningful stories instead of various random intimations at a plot).

But the thing is people don't like change, whether they admit it or not, and especially with a large break from the game, missing a few generations is a LOT to take in, in terms of new Pokemon and in terms of mechanics. Imagine coming back now after quitting at gen 2. 3 new types, hundreds of new pokemon, megas, z moves, held items, abilities, physical special split, weather, hazards, all the breeding changes, shinies, doubles, triples, rotation, and inverse battles (probably missing some here), contests, more prominent role for IVs and EVs. There is just so much stuff to learn, and a lot of people that are probably just looking to get a nostalgia hit from their childhood look at that and go omg what is all this and get overwhelmed. The basic idea is the same, but based on my experiences playing Pokemon Go with friends that never played past Gen 2, this information is overwhelming for people. You have to be really invested from the outset to actually learn. And Go is already a much simpler game. Anyway, all that to say that that is a huge reason gen 5 flopped in the short terms. People want what is familiar, and those games took that away for the main portion of the game. People are going to naturally be more critical of what they aren't used to, regardless of whether those criticisms are based in reality.

So many people buy into the idea that they should no longer enjoy Pokemon and thus become a genwunner. And many attempt to come back, but don't find what they're looking for or get overwhelmed because whether they admit it or not what they really want is nostalgia. And so again, genwunner. This isn't necessarily wrong. You aren't wrong for loving Gen 1, but it does feel a bit disingenuous to people that have played through all fo the generations when it feels like the people arguing against later generations didn't really even give them a chance.

But anyway, all of that to say that the Genwun debate is pointless and an exercise in futility. People are always going to argue that gen 1 is the best, whether that argument is made in good or bad faith, and people are always going to get defensive (there is a heaping helping of irony here I know) about a series that they love. But really let's all just let eachother love what we love okay? People can enjoy things for different reasons, and something that you don't like can still have value to someone else. So let them treasure it okay?

Edit- So this was a little late to the actual debate lol so sorry about that and excuse the frankly massive rant. But I started responding and it just sort of fell out. Carry on.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Richter is popular, but he's not someone anyone ASKED for.

That's the difference that you seemed to have missed.

That seems to be the concept of a majority of the echos as well as all newcomers really.

Simon was the star of the show for Castlevania content and the unique newcomer. So he holds to the pattern.

We're not just going to get some random character as an echo. It doesn't mean they were under-discussed if it happens. It just means they were a Richter like scenario where they inspired someone else to the point they were included. Which is why I don't see many Richters.

I could maybe see Felix as another Richter like situation, but that's really the only possibility I could think of.

 

[MysticKnives]

Now on the discussion of Pokemon


Let's say you were the person to introduce two new Pokemon into Ultimate. One Pokemon must be from Gen 1 that would be considered the Final Gen 1 Pokemon to ever be in Smash for the next 20 years or so. The other Pokemon you introduce must be outside of Gen 1. Who would you pick?


Gen 1: Gengar

Non Gen 1: Sceptile

Tough but I went with Rhydon. The other would be the GOAT Mon, Breloom

 

[Jibblypuff_]

Does anyone happen to have high quality renders from the characters revealed in the last direct?