Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Arcadenik]

Richter is popular, but he's not someone anyone ASKED for.

Richter is popular with the Castlevania fans but not with the Smash fans... though he will be popular with Smash fans after December.

The Smash fans and Castlevania fans asked for Simon but Sakurai threw an extra bone for the Castlevania fans with Richter Echo.

 

[Zinith]

My one dream for Smash (both game and community):

Please treat my boi with a lot more care and respect...

 

[Hinata]

Sorry to derail whatever topic we're on, but I've been watchin' some videos about the Direct, and I just had a question.

Am I the only one who doesn't care how the CSS and SSS are ordered? Everyone I see is like "ugh I hope we can order characters and stages by series because the way they're organized now is dumb", and I'm just over here like, does it matter? As long as you can find where your mains are and know where your favorite stages are in their selection screen, why does it matter what order they're organized in?

 

[Idon]

Sorry to derail whatever topic we're on, but I've been watchin' some videos about the Direct, and I just had a question.

Am I the only one who doesn't care how the CSS and SSS are ordered? Everyone I see is like "ugh I hope we can order characters and stages by series because the way they're organized now is dumb", and I'm just over here like, does it matter? As long as you can find where your mains are and know where your favorite stages are in their selection screen, why does it matter what order they're organized is?

Having options is nice.
Though, in the long run, it won't matter much since people's muscle-memory will eventually adjust.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Richter is popular with the Castlevania fans but not with the Smash fans... though he will be popular with Smash fans after December.

The Smash fans and Castlevania fans asked for Simon but Sakurai threw an extra bone for the Castlevania fans with Richter Echo.

Basically. I plan to play Richter more than Simon to be honest, but only because I hate Conan Simon.

 

[Hinata]

Having options is nice.
Though, in the long run, it won't matter much since people's muscle-memory will eventually adjust.

Well yeah, I'm not saying "don't give us options for organization", because it'd be nice to be able to choose such a thing, but I just don't get why people are hoping for the option purely because they don't like how the CSS and SSS are now.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I also just realized....

A literal fitness trainer can now kick the ass of a Space Dragon and a Vampire Hunter in the right hands.

God, I love Smash.

 

[vaanrose]

Does anyone happen to have high quality renders from the characters revealed in the last direct?

https://www.pidgi.net/wiki/Category:Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

Richter is popular, but he's not someone anyone ASKED for.

That's the difference that you seemed to have missed.

That seems to be the concept of a majority of the echos as well as all newcomers really.

Simon was the star of the show for Castlevania content and the unique newcomer. So he holds to the pattern.

We're not just going to get some random character as an echo. It doesn't mean they were under-discussed if it happens. It just means they were a Richter like scenario where they inspired someone else to the point they were included. Which is why I don't see many Richters.

I could maybe see Felix as another Richter like situation, but that's really the only possibility I could think of.

Richter honestly isn't even a fair comparison to Chrom, Dark Samus and Daisy. If Simon was in Smash four, I'm sure all the Belmonts would be common echo choices.

 

[Arcadenik]

Basically. I plan to play Richter more than Simon to be honest, but only because I hate Conan Simon.

That's okay. I like Conan Simon more than Bishonen Simon. Either way, I am just thankful they did not go with Judgement Simon.

 

[MysticKnives]

Man do people actually think Pokemon games have good story? I mean the newer ones are much better than gen1, but story is definitely not Pokemon's strong suit. And don't get me wrong I love love love me some Pokemon.

Also I am so over the Pokemon generation wars. Genwunners never really listen to any contradictory arguments anyway, and most haven't even tried newer games either so arguing is rather pointless. Every gen has amazing designs and every gen has terribad designs imo. And I am a genwunner in the sense that I've been around since the beginning.

All this gen 5 have bad designs is such cherry picking nonsense. That gen also has some of the best designs in my opinion. And gen 1 has some of the worst. Gen one has such winners as Jynx the blackface pokemon, Electrode the living upside down pokeball, Magmar the butt head fire duck, Muk the sentient pile of goo, Lickitung the uh... thing with the big tongue, Farfetch'd the Pokemon that only exists because of a pun, Mr. Mime, Hitmonchan, and Hitmonlee the random humanoid Pokemon. People like to complain about how Pokemon designs are just items come to life, or too many pokemon that are just like creepy human shaped things as though these weren't present since the beginning.

People who make these arguments really need to take a step back and realize that, while yes Gen 1 is unarguably the most iconic, it is not inherently better than any other Gen. Gen one is iconic because it was the first. It introduced the concept of Pokemon and the games everyone loves. The rest? That's all subjective. Story, designs, mechanics, music, whatever. Let people like what they like. Hell gen 3 is my least favorite, which as far as I can tell is a wildly unpopular opinion amongst the fanbase. Doesn't mean I have to like it and it certainly doesn't mean gen 3 is actually bad.

I think a huuuuuge aspect of this debate that usually doesn't get acknowledged is simply the sociological aspect. Socially speaking it is much more acceptable to enjoy gen one. That's when the games were introduced and that's what my generation has nostalgia for. Ergo, no judgment. But after a certain point it become transgressive to actually enjoy Pokemon publicly. Pokemon is for kids yadda yadda. SO many people stepped away from it. And honestly whether you play Pokemon still or whether you don't, and whether you believe that attitude affected you, there's no way to actually escape that. There's a reason that so many people rediscover Pokemon upon going to college. At that point most people just don't care anymore. But it's still hard for that sort of view to not get internalized I think. Old Pokemon = good, new = bad. To the point where people argue that Gen 1 has a better story (that is one hill I will die on, gen 1 does not have a good story. I don't think any of them do really, but later Gens actually tried to create meaningful stories instead of various random intimations at a plot).

But the thing is people don't like change, whether they admit it or not, and especially with a large break from the game, missing a few generations is a LOT to take in, in terms of new Pokemon and in terms of mechanics. Imagine coming back now after quitting at gen 2. 3 new types, hundreds of new pokemon, megas, z moves, held items, abilities, physical special split, weather, hazards, all the breeding changes, shinies, doubles, triples, rotation, and inverse battles (probably missing some here), contests, more prominent role for IVs and EVs. There is just so much stuff to learn, and a lot of people that are probably just looking to get a nostalgia hit from their childhood look at that and go omg what is all this and get overwhelmed. The basic idea is the same, but based on my experiences playing Pokemon Go with friends that never played past Gen 2, this information is overwhelming for people. You have to be really invested from the outset to actually learn. And Go is already a much simpler game. Anyway, all that to say that that is a huge reason gen 5 flopped in the short terms. People want what is familiar, and those games took that away for the main portion of the game. People are going to naturally be more critical of what they aren't used to, regardless of whether those criticisms are based in reality.

So many people buy into the idea that they should no longer enjoy Pokemon and thus become a genwunner. And many attempt to come back, but don't find what they're looking for or get overwhelmed because whether they admit it or not what they really want is nostalgia. And so again, genwunner. This isn't necessarily wrong. You aren't wrong for loving Gen 1, but it does feel a bit disingenuous to people that have played through all fo the generations when it feels like the people arguing against later generations didn't really even give them a chance.

But anyway, all of that to say that the Genwun debate is pointless and an exercise in futility. People are always going to argue that gen 1 is the best, whether that argument is made in good or bad faith, and people are always going to get defensive (there is a heaping helping of irony here I know) about a series that they love. But really let's all just let eachother love what we love okay? People can enjoy things for different reasons, and something that you don't like can still have value to someone else. So let them treasure it okay?

Edit- So this was a little late to the actual debate lol so sorry about that and excuse the frankly massive rant. But I started responding and it just sort of fell out. Carry on.

Gen V is my favorite but... Did you just throw shade to my boy Electrode?

 

[osby]

That's okay. I like Conan Simon more than Bishonen Simon. Either way, I am just thankful they did not go with Judgement Simon.

Wait, Richter is a bishonen? That made me reconsider the word's definition.

 

[SirCamp]

Gen V is my favorite but... Did you just throw shade to my boy Electrode?

Eh I'm not partial to it, but that was more to draw attention to the fact that people looooove to talk about how inanimate object designs are bad (not inherently true) while simultaneously arguing that gen 1 has the best designs. People see what they want to see and they cherry pick examples to fit their argument.

 

[Jibblypuff_]

https://www.pidgi.net/wiki/Category:Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate



Richter honestly isn't even a fair comparison to Chrom, Dark Samus and Daisy. If Simon was in Smash four, I'm sure all the Belmonts would be common echo choices.

Thanks!

 

[Idon]

Actually, before we got Richter, I was hoping we'd get all the Belmonts as alternate costumes like the Koopalings
1. Simon Belmont
2. Leon Belmont
3. Trevor Belmont
4. Christopher Belmont
5. Juste Belmont
6. Richter Belmont
7. Julius Belmont
8. Johnathan Morris.
All the wielders of the legendary vampire killer, and all pretty cool designs to boot. I'm particularly fond of Leon's knight armor and Julius's err, cowboy attire?

Though if we were to only get one, Richter was definitely the right choice.

 

[Shroob]

Ya know, a thought just occurred to me.


We really should have expected two newcomers and 3 echoes.

Why?

Because in the E3 Direct, while not being new characters, Dark Pit and Lucina were used to explain the concept of "Echo Fighters", with Daisy shown shortly afterwards, and we got two newcomers then being Inkling and Ridley(Though we HAD known about Inkling for some time)


So for two entire Directs now, we've had:


2 Newcomers, and 3 Echo Fighters.


Yes, Lucina and Dark Pit weren't new, but they were rebranded as "Echo Fighters", which they played up as a 'new' concept, so I'm counting it, and the following Direct kept the "2 Newcomer, 3 Echo" pattern going.

 

[epicgordan]

Sorry to derail whatever topic we're on, but I've been watchin' some videos about the Direct, and I just had a question.

Am I the only one who doesn't care how the CSS and SSS are ordered? Everyone I see is like "ugh I hope we can order characters and stages by series because the way they're organized now is dumb", and I'm just over here like, does it matter? As long as you can find where your mains are and know where your favorite stages are in their selection screen, why does it matter what order they're organized in?

I think it might be possible to customize your CSS this time around. But don't quote me on that. I wouldn't put it past Sakurai to include something like that.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think it might be possible to customize your CSS this time around. But don't quote me on that. I wouldn't put it past Sakurai to include something like that.

So far the only customization to the css is being able to place echoes onto the same character slot as the originals

Ya know, a thought just occurred to me.


We really should have expected two newcomers and 3 echoes.

Why?

Because in the E3 Direct, while not being new characters, Dark Pit and Lucina were used to explain the concept of "Echo Fighters", with Daisy shown shortly afterwards, and we got two newcomers then being Inkling and Ridley(Though we HAD known about Inkling for some time)


So for two entire Directs now, we've had:


2 Newcomers, and 3 Echo Fighters.


Yes, Lucina and Dark Pit weren't new, but they were rebranded as "Echo Fighters", which they played up as a 'new' concept, so I'm counting it, and the following Direct kept the "2 Newcomer, 3 Echo" pattern going.

Inklings were new (and alive) enough to be considered fresh newcomers since they had no gameplay shown yet (and they did get the honors...or displeasure...in revealing the game)

I also just realized....

A literal fitness trainer can now kick the *** of a Space Dragon and a Vampire Hunter in the right hands.

God, I love Smash.

Wii Fit Trainer wants everyone to be healthy

 

[KingBroly]

Ya know, a thought just occurred to me.

We really should have expected two newcomers and 3 echoes.

Why?

Because in the E3 Direct, while not being new characters, Dark Pit and Lucina were used to explain the concept of "Echo Fighters", with Daisy shown shortly afterwards, and we got two newcomers then being Inkling and Ridley(Though we HAD known about Inkling for some time)

So for two entire Directs now, we've had:

2 Newcomers, and 3 Echo Fighters.

Yes, Lucina and Dark Pit weren't new, but they were rebranded as "Echo Fighters", which they played up as a 'new' concept, so I'm counting it, and the following Direct kept the "2 Newcomer, 3 Echo" pattern going.

We've gotten 1, 1 and then 2 for Newcomers. You're right on the 3 Echo pattern, though.

Total, we're at 4 Newcomers and 4 New Echoes, along with 7 returning Veterans. So I'll guess we get 3 more Newcomers and 3 new Echoes.

 

[Shroob]

We've gotten 1, 1 and then 2 for Newcomers. You're right on the 3 Echo pattern, though.

Total, we're at 4 Newcomers and 4 New Echoes, along with 7 returning Veterans. So I'll guess we get 3 more Newcomers and 3 new Echoes.

I'm counting Inklings part of E3 'personally', since they were used as a bit of a gateway into announcing Ultimate. We knew they were going to be in, but they never received any actual gameplay footage until E3 like all the other Newcomers thus far.

 

[PSIGuy]

Wait, Richter is a bishonen? That made me reconsider the word's definition.

..Richter wasn't mention in that sentence at all. "Bishonen Simon" is not a nickname for Richter.

This is Judgement Simon.


This is Bishonen Simon.

 

[UltimateWario]

Julius's err, cowboy attire?

Forgive the meme, but I do genuinely think Julius’s design may be a reference to Old Joseph.

Vampire/Supernatural hunter past his prime, still capable of kicking ass using the old fashioned whip instead of the fancy new souls all the kids are using these days, dressed like he’s starring in a dusty, adventurous movie.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So I was just looking up reaction videos for the direct

You know a reaction video is going to be bad when they see Richter in it and say "Is that a Fire Emblem character? The music sounds like it's a Fire Emblem character"

 

[Arcadenik]

Wait, Richter is a bishonen? That made me reconsider the word's definition.

No. Bishonen Simon as in the Simon redesign from Castlevania Chronicles.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

..Richter wasn't mention in that sentence at all. "Bishonen Simon" is not a nickname for Richter.

This is Judgement Simon.


This is Bishonen Simon.

And I'm of the rare opinion. All of Simon's looks are hideous.

 

[Zinith]

So I was just looking up reaction videos for the direct

You know a reaction video is going to be bad when the see Richter in it and say "Is that a Fire Emblem character? The music sounds like it's a Fire Emblem character"

I knew it was Richter the moment I saw the blue tunic coming into view through the fire. In my head I was like "say the line say the line say the line SAY THE LINE!!!" and he did albeit reworked.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's okay. I like Conan Simon more than Bishonen Simon. Either way, I am just thankful they did not go with Judgement Simon.

Obviously this means we need Judgement Eric to screw around with people

 

[Omega Tyrant]

On the topic earlier of Giygas being a Mewtwo Echo, I see that get brought up often, but is there even any official 3D models, official art, or concept art of Mother 1 Giygas and not just fan art? When you look at his small Mother 1 sprite I find it difficult to discern what he is actually supposed to look like, and from what I can see he only has a vague resemblance to Mewtwo, rather than looking like something that actually matches him enough in body build to work as an Echo without some extensive artistic liberty.

 

[UltimateWario]

So I was just looking up reaction videos for the direct

You know a reaction video is going to be bad when they see Richter in it and say "Is that a Fire Emblem character? The music sounds like it's a Fire Emblem character"

My favorite (read: the ones that make me pull my hair out) are the ones from Prime 4’a trailer where people are still yelling “IT’S STAR FOX! IT’S STAR FOX!” even after the Metroid logo is shown and the Prime music starts playing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Not going to lie about this. I'm excited for the Belmont moveset in general as a man who loves him some spatial control, and, if the overall moveset is strong, I am pretty likely to play it seriously. I will obviously mostly use whichever one is actually better in terms of game mechanics, but I do hope it's Simon specifically because he's not really anime at all while Richter is super anime.

 

[Idon]

Forgive the meme, but I do genuinely think Julius’s design may be a reference to Old Joseph.

Vampire/Supernatural hunter past his prime, still capable of kicking *** using the old fashioned whip instead of the fancy new souls all the kids are using these days, dressed like he’s starring in a dusty, adventurous movie.

That would be SO COOL, if he was a Joseph Joestar reference.
He's honestly, one of the coolest Belmonts because we never actually see him in his prime. The only time we fight him is when he's older, and holding back against Soma.
He's the guy that stormed Drac's castle with the American Military and permanently killed Dracula by sealing him within an eclipse. Oh, and Alucard was there with the assist too. The man's a living legend.

 

[cothero]

Probably Xenoblade.

There’s a lot of awesome content to pull from X and 2, it would be a missed opportunity to not include them, although 2 can probably wait for later.

Although, if I don’t get a King K. Rool pirate ship stage (Gallegeon Plank?) then I would get disappointed that Sakurai missed the chance to include a non-jungle DK stage.

Even Bowser doesn't have his own stage, why would K. Rool have? (And i freaking love K. Rool)

 

[Idon]

And I'm of the rare opinion. All of Simon's looks are hideous.

Don't worry, let's just say... Transylvanian fashion is an acquired taste.

 

[Arcadenik]

Sorry to derail whatever topic we're on, but I've been watchin' some videos about the Direct, and I just had a question.

Am I the only one who doesn't care how the CSS and SSS are ordered? Everyone I see is like "ugh I hope we can order characters and stages by series because the way they're organized now is dumb", and I'm just over here like, does it matter? As long as you can find where your mains are and know where your favorite stages are in their selection screen, why does it matter what order they're organized in?

Some of us have OCD and prefer things to be organized a certain way.

 

[UltimateWario]

That would be SO COOL, if he was a Joseph Joestar reference.
He's honestly, one of the coolest Belmonts because we never actually see him in his prime. The only time we fight him is when he's older, and holding back against Soma.
He's the guy that stormed Drac's castle with the American Military and permanently killed Dracula by sealing him within an eclipse. Oh, and Alucard was there with the assist too. The man's a living legend.

If we ever got a game with Julius storming Dracula’s Castle with Alucard as the supporting (and obligatory unlockable) character while the ****ing army fights demons in the background I’d buy it three times.

 

[PSIGuy]

On the topic earlier of Giygas being a Mewtwo Echo, I see that get brought up often, but is there even any official 3D models, official art, or concept art of Mother 1 Giygas and not just fan art? When you look at his small Mother 1 sprite I find it difficult to discern what he is actually supposed to look like, and from what I can see he only has a vague resemblance to Mewtwo, rather than looking like something that actually matches him enough in body build to work as an Echo without some extensive artistic liberty.

Giygas in Mother 1 not having a good reference image kind of just makes me think that he would be even easier to put in as a Mewtwo echo... They can take whatever creative liberties they need to make him match Mewtwo's basic skeleton and animations. Of course, that depends on if they really want him in.

If we ever got a game with Julius storming Dracula’s Castle with Alucard as the supporting (and obligatory unlockable) character while the ****ing army fights demons in the background I’d buy it three times.

New Game: Play as Julius.
New Game+: Play as Alucard.
New Game++: Play as Doom Marine.

 

[Zinith]

Don't worry, let's just say... Transylvanian fashion is an acquired taste.

Funny thing is is that the real life person and castle Dracula is based on was Wallachian, not Transylvanian...

 

[UltimateWario]

Funny thing is is that the real life person and castle Dracula is based on was Wallachian, not Transylvanian...

Which Castlevania character is it whose father is actually in the original Dracula? I know it’s nobody super important but the novel is canon to Castlevania.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Don't worry, let's just say... Transylvanian fashion is an acquired taste.

Half of the Belmont family has some fashion sense, the others need a visit from the guys from Queer Eye.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Those expecting Konami to ever make the 1999 game are setting themselves up for disappointment, Konami could never live up to the hype for it. Though can we get Julius' version of Can't Wait Until Night? Y'know, with Heart of Fire mixed in?

 

[Zinith]

Which Castlevania character is it whose father is actually in the original Dracula? I know it’s nobody super important but the novel is canon to Castlevania.

John Morris. I'm way ahead of you...