Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zerp]

You know what, given this I'm now predicting Jeanne will get in as a Bayonetta echo fighter.

Guys.

Who's the last character alphabetically in the SSB4 roster?

...



It's very possible that ZSS was added as a placeholder because she was the last character alphabetically. Not because ZSS was used to make Bayonetta.

And Ike? Ike was used for Cloud apparently, and between that and how similar ZSS plays to Bayonetta (bait and punish ladder combos the character) I think ZSS is there because what we're all thinking of.

 

[TheDukeofDorks]

Here's a game for you all, suggest up to four characters, in the form of character pitches. Like how in that Smash 4 design document that describes what Rosalina, Robin and Duck Hunt can do as a Smash Fighter.



You must provide a short description of what the character can do (you can relate them to other fighters to give a clearer idea of what they do) and a theme for the character.

Ooh, this is the best kind of speculation!

Rayman:
The main character of the series of the same name, Rayman is Ubisoft's guest character. Given his limbless nature, his bizarre hitboxes are a large part of his design, as they aren't tethered to a stationary model, but to each part of his body. For example, he could throw his torso out as a projectile, leaving a gaping hole in his body that many attacks will harmlessly pass through, but his torso can still be attacked, sending it back to damage Rayman if it is struck hard enough. He can slow his descent with his helicopter hair to mix up his opponents, and several of his attacks function like Link's boomerang, damaging as they're thrown out and as they return to Rayman.
Theme: Disembodied hitboxes, boomerang attacks

Waluigi:
It's about time for Waluigi time to begin. He will be to Smash Brothers in the same way Deadpool is to Marvel vs. Capcom. Not possessing a playstyle gimmick, but a design one. You know how character's have been invited to Super Smash Brothers, ala Villager receiving an invitation? We didn't send Waluigi one, but he showed up anyway, and he's here to cheat his way to victory. This includes bashing people over the head with his own shield, locking them in the assist trophy that once held him, throwing his own stock icons at his opponent's UI to build up percentage, etc.
Theme: Breaking the rules of Smash Brothers

Chorus Kids:
One of the icons of the Rhythm Heaven series, the Chorus Kids attack using a unique rhythm based mechanic. They have a similar mechanic to several of Bayonetta's moves, where holding the attack button down will cause additional effects. But in this case, you're following a rhythm, precisely pressing ahd holding buttons in unison to the kid's singing in order to increase their attack power. Mastering this ability will result in insane amounts of damage, but they'll have to start their song over if they're interrupted by attacks.
Theme: Combo based rhythm fighter

 

[Troykv]

Here's a game for you all, suggest up to four characters, in the form of character pitches. Like how in that Smash 4 design document that describes what Rosalina, Robin and Duck Hunt can do as a Smash Fighter.



You must provide a short description of what the character can do (you can relate them to other fighters to give a clearer idea of what they do) and a theme for the character.

Isaac
The main character of Golden Sun, Isaac fights with Venus Psynergy (Earth Manipulation), Djinn (Helpful Elemental Spirits) and a Sword at his disposal. When Isaac fully charges his Neutral, Side or Down Special attacks, his attack will cause a temporary change in the structure of the stage in the area around him, though these changes will eventually revert back to normal after a few seconds. Certain basic and smash attacks will cause a Djinn to come to Isaac's aid, which will not only increase the range of the attack, but temporarily provide a very small boost to one of his stats (attack power, movement speed, damage taken, jump height, etc.) until the next time he uses his attack, which will remove the Djinn's effect. His side smash, when fully charged, becomes 'Ragnarok', a huge ethereal sword which will plant itself in the ground and bury foes.
Theme: Stage Manipulation, Ranged Sword Fighting

Nightmare
The Azure Knight of Soul Calibur, Nightmare fights with a huge Great Sword known as "Soul Edge". This sword weighs him down a lot, making him very heavy and slow, but his attacks really pack a wallop and have huge knockback. When Nightmare attacks with Soul Edge, he recovers a small amount of percentage depending on how much damage he dealt to the opponent (approximately 10%). This HP recover effect also occurs when Nightmare grabs his foe, he can't pummel his opponent, but he absorbs health from them instead. His Final Smash involves summoning a horse made of Shadow, a 'Night mare', and mowing down enemies.
Theme: Hard Hitting Attacks, HP absorption.

Sephiroth
The One-winged Angel, the greatest SOLDIER, and 'son' of Jenova. Sephiroth carries an enormous katana by the name of Masamune. Sephiroth, confident to the point of arrogance, moves slowly and deliberately when not actively running (he 'runs' by gliding, just like Cloud). When he attacks with Masamune, he appears to swing the sword slowly, but actually several wind blades from his fast strokes attack his opponent; as a result, his attacks hit multiple times, but they also take a while to end, so you better make sure not to miss. His Down Aerial, "Hell's Gate", has the property of instantly destroying damageable Assist Trophies.
Theme: Deliberate, multi-hitting attacks.

Tifa Lockhart
The beautiful patron of the "Seventh Heaven" Bar and a member of AVALANCHE, Tifa plays somewhat like a fusion of Cloud and Little Mac. Like Little Mac, her style is mostly about fisticuffs, and she does poorly in the air, and like Cloud, she has a Limit Gauge which, when filled, powers up her Special Moves. She fights with kicks and punches, which do a lot of damage but have relatively poor range; her special moves are Beat Rush (Neutral), a combo move that requires extra inputs; Somersault (Up), a back flip; Meteodrive (Side), a command grab that involves suplexing the character she grabs; and Limit Charge (Down), which works the same way as with Cloud. Her Final Smash "Final Heaven" requires you to play a roulette (wth "Yeah!", "Hit" or "Miss"), the damage it deals depends on how many "Yeah!" or "Hit" slots you get.
Theme: Limit Breaking Fisticuffs

Well; I'll do one with Micaiah.

Micaiah
The Main Character of Radiant Dawn; also know as the Divine Silver Maiden/Silver-Haired Maiden, and the Priestess of Dawn. Micaiah fights using her tomes, which allow her to have additional range in her attacks. Like in her original game; Micaiah is quite slow; and its extremely vulnerable to damage because of her low constituion, making her quite difficult to use. She compesates this having access a many ranged attacks that allow her to maintaint distance with her adversaries, and she is actually faster in air, so don't be afraid of trying an approach with an aerial attack!. Micaiah's Light (Neutral) can be charged to have different effects. Thani (Side) can break shields, and Sleep Staff (Down) it's her ultimate punish tool, making people sleep and allow her to start a combo. Her Final Smash "Great Corona and RexAura" can pull the other players before landing for it's final explosion.
Theme: Versatile Glass Cannon.

Man, I picked the worst time to post that super-post that took me over an hour to write, huh?
Posting it when everyone's arguing about Bayonetta and Cloud and the ballot.

Eh, it is what it is.

Yeah... BTW; I knew Bayonetta wouldn't have won under normal circunstances.

 

[PSIGuy]

If you want to go by release date, each game has added characters, stages and music from games released the year before.
The reason everyone brings up development time is that in order for these things to be added, they'd have to be based on pre-release stuff.

Stages and music do not at all compare to characters. Even then, there's a lot of absent content from time-relevant games like Galaxy in Brawl or Ike and Villager's costumes in their debut being from older games. If Sakurai can't even update a character model why would he add a whole character?

The -only- time a character was based on pre-release material was Greninja, and people now assume every character can be Greninja'd in, despite the fact that leaving a slot for a new Pokemon has much more going for it (planned merchandise, tying in with anime planning, debuting in a game that will sell several millions on brand name alone) than leaving a slot for a random new protagonist. No, Roy doesn't count when he was a glorified model hack over Marth who wasn't planned in advance. It's absurd. Rex and Pyra are not Greninja.

 

[Deleted member]

So we agree that, during it's runtime, the ballot didn't matter at all then?

This right here, I think if Nintendo were just up front about it then there wouldn't be any controversy.

I think we should refer to one of my my favorite songs about all of this

If Nintendo stated their intent from the get go there would be no issue, they purposely used vague language and minuscule terms and conditions on the JP website and duped us for like 8 months. If you're okay with that, that's fine! I'm not even that burned about it but I don't see how we can look at all the evidence before us and say "Yeah, Nintendo was in the right to lie about the ballot."

It's less that they weren't "upfront about it" and more people, as usual, heard whatever they wanted to hear and are now outraged that what they heard isn't what was literally being said to them.

 

[Wambo]

Here's a tinfoil/woke theory:

I would wager that all Mii costumes are just striped assets that exist in Ultimate already.

I mean ccharacters that were turned into full body suits like K Rool and.. Flying man (yes I'm pushing him super hard)

Or like Geno who has never had a 3D model period.


I mean its all really simple take the model, delete some ploys, resize the limbs and then UV map the model again.

Look at Knuckles...

I love the fact that, with a new Smash game coming out (that started development years ago at the same time as the costume DLC), some people think K.Rool and Geno getting Mii costumes means they're forever deconfirmed from the series and irrelevant characters now.

Tfw they're both probably already in the game rn.

 

[Pacack]

1. ZSS wasn't the placeholder. Mario was the placeholder name (as in, the file was called 'Mario') while using ZSS data.
2. This wouldn't explain Ike being the data source for both Cloud and Corrin.

Zero Suit Samus could have been the default (being last alphabetically) while Cloud and Corrin actually were based off Ike. The latter two were never implied to be ballot characters.

And Ike? Ike was used for Cloud apparently, and between that and how similar ZSS plays to Bayonetta (bait and punish ladder combos the character) I think ZSS is there because what we're all thinking of.

Cloud was never claimed to be a ballot character.

And I play Bayonetta and ZSS. They do not have similar moves, and their playstyles are only superficially similar. (ZSS, Bayonetta, and Meta Knight all are very good at killing off the top. Meta Knight is also not even remotely similar to ZSS or Bayonetta outside of that.)

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I guess if anything is to be taken away from this is that Sakurai added Bayonetta without the influence of the ballot. People said that 3rd party characters needed to be iconic, and they only made an exception for Bayonetta, because she was the ballot winner. Now we know that's not the case, though I would argue that such an obscure 3rd party character got in mainly because of Nintendo's involvement with the series.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Guys.

Who's the last character alphabetically in the SSB4 roster?

...



It's very possible that ZSS was added as a placeholder because she was the last character alphabetically. Not because ZSS was used to make Bayonetta.

Don't know if this is serious, but in case it is, Zamus is by far the closest match to Bayo on the roster, so it only makes sense Bayo would use her as a base, and then the other character used as a base was Ike, the closest match on the roster to Cloud, while Ike is nowhere in the alphabetical order that would fit this theory. Additionally the placeholders are named "Mario", so why wouldn't they just have Mario's stats if they were just placeholders and not already in-development characters?

 

[Sharkarat]

We know that by the time this game was pitched, they at least had a good idea on what the top most-wanted fighters were from the ballot.

Like Sakurai have has said ultimate was pitched in December 2015, which is two months after the ballot ended.

Personally I'm not really too upset, well...? I am and I'm not. I was so sure that the ballot was the way to get the ICs back in early and I put so much effort into making art, getting on twitter, talking to everyone I could to #VoteIC, so I guess finding out none of that really mattered at the time feels like a slap to the face to my younger, more excitable self. Yes, the ICs are back now, so it's fine, but if this story broke as soon as Bayo dropped I could see myself being crushed.

Just want to point out that the ballot probably wouldn't been able to help Ice Climbers anyway, seeing that they were cut because of hardware limitations. So a rigged ballot would be the least of their worries.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

And I play Bayonetta and ZSS. They do not have similar moves, and their playstyles are only superficially similar. (ZSS, Bayonetta, and Meta Knight all are very good at killing off the top. Meta Knight is also not even remotely similar to ZSS or Bayonetta outside of that.)

That doesn't matter, as pointed out earlier what began as an identical clone can end up very different in the final product and barely resemble the character they were initially cloned off of. Falcon and Ness used Samus and Mario as a base in Smash 64, yet ended up very different characters, with only a couple remaining assets shared (especially Ness).

 

[vaanrose]

Zero Suit Samus could have been the default (being last alphabetically) while Cloud and Corrin actually were based off Ike. The latter two were never implied to be ballot characters.

Cloud was never claimed to be a ballot character.

And I play Bayonetta and ZSS. They do not have similar moves, and their playstyles are only superficially similar. (ZSS, Bayonetta, and Meta Knight all are very good at killing off the top. Meta Knight is also not even remotely similar to ZSS or Bayonetta outside of that.)

ZSS isn't listed last based on the internal ordering of the characters. If they were just copy-pasting whoever was last in the list, they'd've copied Megaman.

 

[Makai Wars]

Just want to point out that the ballot probably wouldn't been able to help Ice Climbers anyway, seeing that they were cut because of hardware limitations. So a rigged ballot would be the least of their worries.

Hahaha, yeah, I was younger then and honestly I didn't really expect the Ice Climbers TOO much thanks to that accursed 3DS, so younger me was set up for disappointment regardless of who actually got in, but I still put my honest effort into my little Ice Climber campaign, and I imagine others put their best effort into their Wolf or Snake or K. Rool or Shantae campaign as well, so I believe the point still stands.

 

[RandomAce]

EVERYONE LISTEN UP!

Nothing has changed after this information. As a matter of fact this info enforced the general consensus on this game’s roster.

-2-3 more characters from recent games Ex. “Rhythm Heaven Rep, Gen VII Pokemon, Elma” are still likely.

-There is still the likely chance of 1 new retro character or 1 new Sakurai pick.

-The rest of the roster, or a matter of fact, a majority of the roster will still mostly take inspiration from the ballot.

-Even if they aren’t in the base roster, we can even expect a couple of more ballot characters as DLC.

The “Everyone is here!” slogan adds to this because Sakurai even said that people wanted veterans back, and low and behold Snake was brought back due to popular demand.

Bayonetta, the veterans Snake, Wolf, and Ice Climbers, were all most likely from the ballot due to popular demand. So heavily pushed characters still have a likely chance of getting in.

NOTHING CHANGED!
I rest my case.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I think what might be the case is that the Ballot originally was intended for Smash 4 DLC. However some time into it, with the Switch really needing to be a hit while saving the Wii U was hopeless, Sakurai and Nintendo decided that it would be wasteful to continue DLC on Smash 4 when those resources could be used for an immediate new Smash game instead on the Switch (as otherwise the Switch would be without a new Smash game for a very long time). However they couldn't really come out and say it, as not only would have they have to reveal the plans for a new Smash game before it even began development, but it would completely kill enthusiasm for Smash 4 and its DLC. So thus the cover story of Bayo being the "ballot winner" to close out Smash 4 DLC was made while they secretly moved on to using the Ballot for Smash Ultimate.

This makes the most sense, and I imagine that this is the case. Sakurai isn't a fan of sudden reveals like that would've been, as evidenced to his reaction when Iwata announced a Smash Bros. game on the Wii without consulting him.

Here's a tinfoil/woke theory:

I would wager that all Mii costumes are just striped assets that exist in Ultimate already.

I mean Character's that were turned into full body suits like K Rool and.. Flying man (yes I'm pushing him super hard)

Or like Geno who has never had a 3D model period.


I mean its all really simple take the model, delete some ploys, resize the limbs and then UV map the model again.

 

[PeridotGX]

So I get on and appearently something came out about how Bayo wasn't the Ballot Winner? Can someone explain?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Everyone saying they’re upset won’t care once their favorite character is revealed.

That’s how the Smash fan base works.

To be completely honest, I don’t get why you guys argue about the ballot results or care at this point. Even if we know about the hidden reasons behind the ballot being used (which, considering what we know now, makes complete sense) what difference does it make? As others have said, it was never implied that any particular choice would be used for Wii U/3DS.

Do I think it’s shady that Bayonetta was used as a supposed “top vote getter”? Yes, I do. If that wasn’t the truth then it should have just been, “Hey, check out Bayonetta!”

If anything, I will say this might tell us about the fate of numerous top vote getters, or better yet, interesting vote getters.

For example, Krystal, Daisy, Knuckles and Bomberman probably has a ton of votes respectively. At least, I would wager they each got quite a few. Three ended up as Assist Trophies. Considering this, I would say to temper expectations for particular characters. No offense intended, but first one on the chopping block of Assist Trophies (as in, will be an Assist trophy) is Bandanna Dee.

If he’s not, i’d gladly be wrong. But he’s the first one I thought of.

I think at this point it’s obvious that top vote getters probably consisted mainly of veterans, which probably resulted in the act of bringing everybody back. Inklings were obvious, and I wouldn’t count them as ballot picks. Ridley I would probably say counts, as Sakurai specifically mentioned him as a character that “fans from overseas” requested.

The next natural thought I have is “Who would be the “Ridley” of Japan?”

To close, I think it makes complete sense the ballot is used for this game as this game is “a future project”. I would simply not expect all these “obvious picks” to get in simply because we suspect they got a ton of votes.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I don't know why people aren't
getting this but Nintendo said they would consider the suggestions for Smash Wii U/3DS. If they already started working on the character that would "win" then they never actually planned to consider anything. That's the lie.

If you want to go by release date, each game has added characters, stages and music from games released the year before.

The reason everyone brings up development time is that in order for these things to be added, they'd have to be based on pre-release stuff.

That's a big 'if' on your part though.

Look at this scenario: Sakurai and his team still could have considered characters to add after Bayonetta's development started. But, after noticing Bayonetta getting a substantial amount of votes for her, even in comparison to other popular characters (and since they supposedly they started Bayo development 2 weeks after the ballot opened), they could easily spin Bayonetta as being the winner in order to end Smash 4's DLC cycle faster, since Ultimate's inception had begun around December of 2015.

With this scenario, the Smash team wouldn't have lied, so much as they bent the rules to favour budget and development time among other things, since characters that were voted in were still considered, keeping in mind, I'm not condoning what they did, assuming this scenario is true.

And honestly, it's been 2 years. I really don't think it matters what the circumstances behind her inclusion were at this point, since Smash Ultimate is on the horizon as is.

 

[Starbound]

Zero Suit Samus could have been the default (being last alphabetically) while Cloud and Corrin actually were based off Ike. The latter two were never implied to be ballot characters.

Cloud was never claimed to be a ballot character.

And I play Bayonetta and ZSS. They do not have similar moves, and their playstyles are only superficially similar. (ZSS, Bayonetta, and Meta Knight all are very good at killing off the top. Meta Knight is also not even remotely similar to ZSS or Bayonetta outside of that.)

Cloud was selected as "the most requested Final Fantasy character", with interviews mentioning the ballot.

Also, ZSS in the data isn't called 'zerosuitsamus', but rather 'samuszerosuit'. The last character in the files, alphabetically, would be 'zelda'.

We know there were multiple files called Mario at the same time, one using ZSS' parameters and the other using Ike's parameters. If ZSS was the default, it wouldn't make sense for them to change the names of both files, yet only change the parameters of one.

 

[Pacack]

If my aforementioned theory isn't tenable, then I still have another one that makes more sense than arguing that the ballot was a lie.

This data was added two weeks after the ballot's start. It's perfectly possible that they gave the ballot a week and then began work on Bayonetta. Using ZSS as a starting point doesn't necessitate that the ballot wasn't taken into consideration.

That doesn't matter, as pointed out earlier what began as an identical clone can end up very different in the final product and barely resemble the character they were initially cloned off of. Falcon and Ness used Samus and Mario as a base in Smash 64, yet ended up very different characters, with only a couple remaining assets shared (especially Ness).

I know this. However, the claim that the person I was responding to made was that ZSS was used as the base because of their similar playstyles. If anything, it would have been because of their similar figure.

 

[SquashiniKun]

QUESTION

If Smash Ultimate was to have an anime styled opening and if it had vocals in it, who do you think should be the singer?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Guys.

Who's the last character alphabetically in the SSB4 roster?

...



It's very possible that ZSS was added as a placeholder because she was the last character alphabetically. Not because ZSS was used to make Bayonetta.

Or because Bayonetta wishes she was Samus. Everybody loves and respects Samus while Bayonis feared by all but Jeanne and Rodin (also Enzo and Luka but they haven’t gotten to taste Smash yet)

QUESTION

If Smash Ultimate was to have an anime styled opening and if it had vocals in it, who do you think should be the singer?

Pit and Pauline doing a duet

 

[Tree Gelbman]

-sigh-

As *THE* Bayonetta guy around here. This does bug me just a bit.

I do have to say the lies (the number 1 worldwide and the Top 5 in US most likely. ) are really hurtful. She did probably do as well in Europe as they said. Her games do well there.

I do believe she did well because our fanbase did push for her. I voted for her and I know a lot of others that did, so I do think the votes mattered to a certain extent. Just not a winning extent.

I always said from the beginning of the game, from base roster that Bayonetta would be in Smash Brothers. I knew that Sakurai and Nintendo would add her. So the fact they added her before hand of the ballot isn't all that shocking to me. In fact it gives me a certain pleasure to know I was right.

But the lies?

I wish they hadn't lied in any way about their intent with Bayonetta. Just own up to your intent to add her, because she was practically a Nintendo character at that point.

Say you're treating her like any other new Nintendo IP, which is what they've been doing internally from the start of their investment in her IP.

I don't think anyone has any right to be mad about Bayonetta in Smash for the fact that Nintendo views her as their own, but I do think they have a right to be upset that the ballot wasn't intentionally spelled out for all as ''This is for future game use only."

 

[Omega Tyrant]

So I get on and appearently something came out about how Bayo wasn't the Ballot Winner? Can someone explain?

Datamined evidence has been publicized that Bayonetta was in active development before the Ballot even launched, as one of the Mario slots added in 1.0.6, which launched just two weeks after the Ballot launched, was discovered to have the same exact stats as Zero Suit Samus and would be altered farther as the slot became Bayonetta (while the other Mario slot was cloned off of Ike and would become Cloud).

 

[PeridotGX]

Everyone saying they’re upset won’t care once their favorite character is revealed.

That’s how the Smash fan base works.

To be completely honest, I don’t get why you guys argue about the ballot results or care at this point. Even if we know about the hidden reasons behind the ballot being used (which, considering what we know now, makes complete sense) what difference does it make? As others have said, it was never implied that any particular choice would be used for Wii U/3DS.

Do I think it’s shady that Bayonetta was used as a supposed “top vote getter”? Yes, I do. If that wasn’t the truth then it should have just been, “Hey, check out Bayonetta!”

If anything, I will say this might tell us about the fate of numerous top vote getters, or better yet, interesting vote getters.

For example, Krystal, Daisy, Knuckles and Bomberman probably has a ton of votes respectively. At least, I would wager they each got quite a few. Three ended up as Assist Trophies. Considering this, I would say to temper expectations for particular characters. No offense intended, but first one on the chopping block of Assist Trophies (as in, will be an Assist trophy) is Bandanna Dee.

If he’s not, i’d gladly be wrong. But he’s the first one I thought of.

I think at this point it’s obvious that top vote getters probably consisted mainly of veterans, which probably resulted in the act of bringing everybody back. Inklings were obvious, and I wouldn’t count them as ballot picks. Ridley I would probably say counts, as Sakurai specifically mentioned him as a character that “fans from overseas” requested.

The next natural thought I have is “Who would be the “Ridley” of Japan?”

To close, I think it makes complete sense the ballot is used for this game as this game is “a future project”. I would simply not expect all these “obvious picks” to get in simply because we suspect they got a ton of votes.

Japan's Ridley? Probably Ashley, she's huge over there.

 

[KMDP]

Ooh, this is the best kind of speculation!

Thanks!

Man, I really like your proposals, I wasn't too keen on the Chorus Kids, but your proposal is actually kind of selling me on them.

Well; I'll do one with Micaiah.

Your Micaiah sounds like "Ranged Jigglypuff", able to put people to sleep, better in the air. I like it! (Though probably for all the wrong reasons. XD)

 

[StrangeMann]

Speaking of leak business and etc, When did the Ninka-Vaanrose leak occur for smash 4?
That was the first of the leaks from the Smash 4 era which had legitimacy (aside from the controversial but probably partially correct Gematsu leak).
IIRC the ESRB leak happened a month or so ahead of Smash 4's launch (August 19th, when the 3DS version came out September 3rd), but the Ninka-Vaanrose leak happened far earlier.

 

[Makai Wars]

This data was added two weeks after the ballot's start. It's perfectly possible that they gave the ballot a week and then began work on Bayonetta. Using ZSS as a starting point doesn't necessitate that the ballot wasn't taken into consideration.

As someone stated earlier though, getting the rights and laying down the groundwork for Bayonetta would have taken much longer than just a week.

 

[Pakky]

This makes the most sense, and I imagine that this is the case. Sakurai isn't a fan of sudden reveals like that would've been, as evidenced to his reaction when Iwata announced a Smash Bros. game on the Wii without consulting him.


View attachment 151195

Good show very good show.

 

[Starbound]

As a matter of fact, Sakurai did say that Bayonetta places higher than veterans from the ballot, meaning that characters that placed around the veterans and still have a likely chance of getting in.

Loathe as I am to admit it, I'm pretty sure Bayo did place higher than veterans Young Link and Pichu.

And those are the only veterans she needs to beat to "place higher than veterans".

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

The next natural thought I have is “Who would be the “Ridley” of Japan?”

To close, I think it makes complete sense the ballot is used for this game as this game is “a future project”. I would simply not expect all these “obvious picks” to get in simply because we suspect they got a ton of votes.

The Ridley of Japan is easily Ashley. They really want her apparently. Lip is a close second.

Japan has something for little magical girls apparently.

Speaking of leak business and etc, When did the Ninka-Vaanrose leak occur for smash 4?
That was the first of the leaks from the Smash 4 era which had legitimacy (aside from the controversial but probably partially correct Gematsu leak).
IIRC the ESRB leak happened a month or so ahead of Smash 4's launch (August 19th, when the 3DS version came out September 3rd), but the Ninka-Vaanrose leak happened far earlier.

The Ninka/Vaanrose leak wasn't just one leak. It was a leak in multiple parts from three different people. It started shortly after Robin's reveal with Vaanrose's first statement and continued throughout the year as we got more information.

 

[APC99]

So doing some research, there are laws in Florida at least for false advertising. The maximum penalty is $10,000. Unfortunately, I can't do it as I don't own Bayonetta. That said, I support anyone who did buy her who 1)Has money and 2)Wants to get the ballot results to sue under your state statutes. Could also do it as a class action lawsuit to raise the dollar value.


Nintendo told folks that they'd consider any suggestion for Smash Wii U/3DS which they clearly weren't. They claimed Bayo was added because of the ballot. They 100% lied about it. There is no denying that.

I'm not going to act like "it's just speculation, it means nothing!" because it's very obvious. Placeholders using Ike and ZSS in the space of Cloud and Bayo respectively is pretty clear evidence.

However, are we seriously suggesting suing a company (and not just any company, a massive Japanese company worth millions) because they didn't use suggestions from a vote-in and instead used them to back up their own addition? And not only that, but then using it to see the results of said three year old vote in?

That's delusional. We're not entitled to anything here. It was very clearly stated votes would be considered for the future. To quote the translation in the Final Smash Presentation, "out of negotiable and realizable characters, Bayonetta was the #1 choice worldwide". We don't know what negotiable or realizable means because we're not the developers. They twisted words and ballot results to push Bayonetta. But if Bayonetta wasn't just added due to fan request, then what else do we have? We know nothing about why Sakurai considered her, or if another party (like higher-ups at Nintendo, higher-ups at SEGA, Kamiya or other devs at Platinum...) had some influence. It's not worth $10k to investigate. Why? It's a video game. We're not being manipulated or cheated, it's business. Companies pull this stunt all the time, to release / rerelease a somewhat popular product or concept by making the audience think their opinion matters, that they did this. Is it scummy? Depends on your view.

But in the end? It doesn't matter at all. You have the choice to purchase DLC. They aren't forcing you to buy it. You did not lose anything by Bayonetta being added over whoever was the true top Ballot choice. If you don't like it, then don't support it. Besides, we ARE getting things people wanted, albeit in other forms. K. Rool and Geno getting Mii costumes was just on a whim, not influenced at all by fan popularity? We're going to ignore the fact that Ultimate has added multiple things that both the speculation community AND the competitive community have been asking for, like every veteran returning, more advanced techniques, legal forms for every stage / a hazard toggle, and Ridley, who Sakurai then said was added due to overwhelming Western popularity (assuming you still trust him)?

Rip me apart, point out all the flaws in my argument, have some fun with it. I don't care, Smash / Nintendo isn't my whole world anymore, I've got other things to do beyond argue about who's playable or why so-and-so was so deserving and how Sakurai is a hack because of it. Doesn't change the fact that this mindset of entitlement and "justice" over a character in a fighting game, like this and the whole Waluigi BS, is one of the few reasons why people never take Smash fans, or Nintendo fans, or really video games seriously, because we ourselves take it too seriously.

 

[Pakky]

The Ridley of Japan is easily Ashley. They really want her apparently. Lip is a close second.

Japan has something for little magical girls apparently.


The Ninka/Vaanrose leak wasn't just one leak. It started shortly after Robin's reveal and continued throughout the year as we got more information.

It is their way, as Xenomorphs are ours.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

If my aforementioned theory isn't tenable, then I still have another one that makes more sense than arguing that the ballot was a lie.

This data was added two weeks after the ballot's start. It's perfectly possible that they gave the ballot a week and then began work on Bayonetta. Using ZSS as a starting point doesn't necessitate that the ballot wasn't taken into consideration.

I addressed this part before too. First 1.0.6 data would be quite a bit older than when it actually released (almost certainly more than the two weeks it launched after the Ballot began). Additionally it's very doubtful the process of deciding Bayo/Cloud, licensing them, and started development on them would have happen within two weeks. Combine that with the fact that 1.0.6's data would have already been set some time before it launched, and the theory that Bayo was chosen immediately off of initial Ballot results doesn't make sense.

 

[Makai Wars]

Japan's Ridley? Probably Ashley, she's huge over there.

I've been scratching my head over the idea of JP's Ridely and I think it's a tossup between Ashley, K. Rool and something ridiculous like Reimu or Saber from Fate. The thing is Japan has always had a preference when getting characters in Smash, with few exceptions like Little Mac and Ridely, so I'm not really sure who's heavily requested in JP but still isn't in. Is Geno as big over there as he is here? I'd really like to see more updated charts on what Japan wants in Smash 5.

 

[Pacack]

Cloud was selected as "the most requested Final Fantasy character", with interviews mentioning the ballot.

To my knowledge, no interviews mentioned the ballot. he was heavily requested before the ballot, and Sakurai would have been aware that he was the most requested FF character regardless.

Also, ZSS in the data isn't called 'zerosuitsamus', but rather 'samuszerosuit'. The last character in the files, alphabetically, would be 'zelda'.

We know there were multiple files called Mario at the same time, one using ZSS' parameters and the other using Ike's parameters. If ZSS was the default, it wouldn't make sense for them to change the names of both files, yet only change the parameters of one.

I reject my previous theory, then. However, I still am loathe to believe that Bayonetta's results were not legitimate.

As someone stated earlier though, getting the rights and laying down the groundwork for Bayonetta would have taken much longer than just a week.

Would it? Sega was already involved, and Nintendo already had partial rights to Bayonetta 2 stuff.

They also could have easily gotten the go-ahead to start work before the details were fully fleshed out on contract stuff.

 

[KMDP]

QUESTION

If Smash Ultimate was to have an anime styled opening and if it had vocals in it, who do you think should be the singer?

Namie Amuro. Or Eir Aoi. Or Hikaru Utada. Someone like that.

But we all know some people want Grant Kirkhope to sing the "Smash Rap".

 

[Sharkarat]

Hahaha, yeah, I was younger then and honestly I didn't really expect the Ice Climbers TOO much thanks to that accursed 3DS, so younger me was set up for disappointment regardless of who actually got in, but I still put my honest effort into my little Ice Climber campaign, and I imagine others put their best effort into their Wolf or Snake or K. Rool or Shantae campaign as well, so I believe the point still stands.

But like, you and other people efforts towards veterans might have influenced Ultimate's "Everyone is here" direction, so don't feel bad about it.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I've been scratching my head over the idea of JP's Ridely and I think it's a tossup between Ashley, K. Rool and something ridiculous like Reimu or Saber from Fate. The thing is Japan has always had a preference when getting characters in Smash, with few exceptions like Little Mac and Ridely, so I'm not really sure who's heavily requested in JP but still isn't in. Is Geno as big over there as he is here? I'd really like to see more updated charts on what Japan wants in Smash 5.

Geno's big here there and everywhere. Probably slightly smaller in Japan though. K. Rool isn't as popular in Japan as people make him out to be, but Ashley, Reimu, and Saber are all popular over there.

 

[Pacack]

A general question to the floor.

Does anyone have a source that confirms that Cloud was included due to the ballot? I never considered that to be the case, and I've not read anything that indicated he was.