Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[YoshiandToad]

Sakurai doesn't care. Though it WOULD look aesthetically weird to see a tongue come out of her, er... hole...

I mean he could make the tongue invisible and have her seem to 'suck' the enemies into her mouth.

...I got nothing to make the egg lay portion work however.

Anyone thinking Toad's newly expanded role of Peach's protector who actively takes part in the fight is a nod towards Toad supporters? Maybe even Sakurai showing he CAN make a Toad work?

I think it may prove Sakurai has acknowledged Toad support. Between the Mii outfit and this I believe he's realised there is demand for a playable Toad, and even if he's not quite ready to add it, it's nice to see.

Toad's very much been in the same situation as Ridley, with each iteration since Brawl making him more and more a fighter:

Melee and Brawl: Peach's Toad counter
Sm4sh: Peach's Toad counter, but also a custom allows him to attack whenever and a Mii Brawler set
Ultimate: Toad is actively protecting Peach with the Toad counter now, as well as grappling and throwing opponents for her(and Daisy).

Whilst unlikely I haven't quite given up my hopes for Captain Toad JUST yet, but it's nice to see Sakurai acknowledge our little fandom. We're not the most vocal(hell I probably am one of the more vocal Toad supporters and I only post here and Youtube) but we showed our support in that ballot and we've been patient as our boy gets passed up each time.

Maybe Sakurai finally realised Toads can be seen as fighters, or maybe he just thought he'd throw him a little respect this time round and have him not be a hapless hostage. Either way, as a Toad fan, honestly it's nice to see him being treated with the same respect other characters tend to recieve.

 

[Will]

I mean he could make the tongue invisible and have her seem to 'suck' the enemies into her mouth.

...I got nothing to make the egg lay portion work however.

When you realize Yoshi's neutral special is already vore the less weird you think Birdo is.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Where'd they say anything about weight and speed? I thought the only rule was for attack animations/hitbox locations being ported over since that seems to be the main point of saved effort.

Right here.

17:44 starts talking about it.

 

[Zinith]

When you realize Yoshi's neutral special is already vore the less weird you think Birdo is.

That's been an established move for Yoshi since the beginning.

 

[Lyndis_]

I don't even see the point of trying to cram Birdo as a echo just for the sake of them being playable, honestly.

I like Birdo and all, but if they don't fit they don't fit and I'm not sure they have as much significance as even some other characters that could more easily work as echo clones for the Mario series.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Gotta love GameXPlain.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I mean he could make the tongue invisible and have her seem to 'suck' the enemies into her mouth.

...I got nothing to make the egg lay portion work however.



I think it may prove Sakurai has acknowledged Toad support. Between the Mii outfit and this I believe he's realised there is demand for a playable Toad, and even if he's not quite ready to add it, it's nice to see.

Toad's very much been in the same situation as Ridley, with each iteration since Brawl making him more and more a fighter:

Melee and Brawl: Peach's Toad counter
Sm4sh: Peach's Toad counter, but also a custom allows him to attack whenever and a Mii Brawler set
Ultimate: Toad is actively protecting Peach with the Toad counter now, as well as grappling and throwing opponents for her(and Daisy).

Whilst unlikely I haven't quite given up my hopes for Captain Toad JUST yet, but it's nice to see Sakurai acknowledge our little fandom. We're not the most vocal(hell I probably am one of the more vocal Toad supporters and I only post here and Youtube) but we showed our support in that ballot and we've been patient as our boy gets passed up each time.

Maybe Sakurai finally realised Toads can be seen as fighters, or maybe he just thought he'd throw him a little respect this time round and have him not be a hapless hostage.

Maybe just have them turn around and shoot them out as an egg? different animation, same function

 

[Lyndis_]

I don't think Birdo with an invisible or transparent air vacuum animation would be very fair. The reason it works for Kirby and Dedede is the long startup lag and that you hold it there, so that it's very obvious.

Doing the same for both a neutral-B and grab which won't be coreographed seems unfair, especially for lower level players that won't be able to spot the slight movement as easily.

 

[Zinith]

An odd thought occurred to me. Yoshi has 2 eating based moves while the others (Kirby, King Dedede, Wario) only have one

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Right here.

17:44 starts talking about it.

Thanks, but I find this weird
"Same general knockback"
Daisy's side special? Literally any of Lucina's moves?
[Paraphrased] "Doctor Mario's Pills contribute to him being not an echo because they behave differently, it's not just a cosmetic change"
Dark Pit's arrows were his biggest distinction, especially in how they handled.

 

[Will]

An odd thought occurred to me. Yoshi has 2 eating based moves while the others (Kirby, King Dedede, Wario) only have one

You think Kirby's gonna suplex you while you're in his stomach?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Anyone thinking Toad's newly expanded role of Peach's protector who actively takes part in the fight is a nod towards Toad supporters? Maybe even Sakurai showing he CAN make a Toad work?

I would expect Captain Toad at most.

 

[YoshiandToad]

An odd thought occurred to me. Yoshi has 2 eating based moves while the others (Kirby, King Dedede, Wario) only have one

And yet Yoshi is the only one who cannot eat items.

 

[Zinith]

And yet Yoshi is the only one who cannot eat items.

*sigh* Don't remind me

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thanks, but I find this weird
"Same general knockback"
Daisy's side special? Literally any of Lucina's moves?
[Paraphrased] "Doctor Mario's Pills contribute to him being not an echo because they behave differently, it's not just a cosmetic change"
Dark Pit's arrows were his biggest distinction, especially in how they handled.

Dr. Mario also had fully different moves and weight. Dark Pit's arrows aren't that different overall. It's a slight change.

 

[Enderwoman]

I don't even see the point of trying to cram Birdo as a echo just for the sake of them being playable, honestly.

I like Birdo and all, but if they don't fit they don't fit and I'm not sure they have as much significance as even some other characters that could more easily work as echo clones for the Mario series.

If Daisy is here then significance doesn't mean much anymore. Only thing that would bother me about that is Mario appearing to have bizarrely disproportionate amount of characters, even for that series even if echoes are pretty harmless.

 

[Will]

If Daisy is here then significance doesn't mean much anymore. Only thing that would bother me about that is Mario appearing to have bizarrely disproportionate amount of characters, even for that series even if echoes are pretty harmless.

They acknowledged the size of the Mario roster in a positive light, I believe. Unlike some series.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Dr. Mario also had fully different moves and weight. Dark Pit's arrows aren't that different overall. It's a slight change.

I'm not saying Doc is an echo fighter, I'm saying that the distinctions they were making seem inconsistent with the actual echo fighters that we have as examples. Bill implied that the difference would only be cosmetic between the projectiles on two echo fighters. Here it very clearly affects how you can use it.
Bill not knowing Doc had a different dair didn't inspire confidence...

 

[Enderwoman]

They acknowledged the size of the Mario roster in a positive light, I believe. Unlike some series.

Oh, Fire Emblem's amount of characters is fine. I think players are just not used to it actually being popular.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not saying Doc is an echo fighter, I'm saying that the distinctions they were making seem inconsistent with the actual echo fighters that we have as examples. Bill implied that the difference would only be cosmetic between the projectiles on two echo fighters. Here it very clearly affects how you can use it.
Bill not knowing Doc had a different dair didn't inspire confidence...

No, he wasn't implying it'd be cosmetic among echo fighters. He was just specifying that the Megavitamins are more than cosmetic. Don't read into something he didn't say at all.

 

[Will]

Oh, Fire Emblem's amount of characters is fine. I think players are just not used to it actually being popular.

I was saying Mario's sizeable party was put in a good light compared to Sakurai's "Yeah maybe 6 is a little too much" light.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

No, he wasn't implying it'd be cosmetic among echo fighters. He was just specifying that the Megavitamins are more than cosmetic. Don't read into something he didn't say at all.

I'm sure you know that that's what I meant given the context. And with that understanding, the sentiment still stands, between Pit and Dark Pit it's more than a cosmetic difference, it's a difference in the actual properties of the projectile, and so it fails to be consistent with the distinction Bill made between Mario and Doc.
Also you never addressed "general knockback."

 

[YoshiandToad]

They acknowledged the size of the Mario roster in a positive light, I believe. Unlike some series.

I mean to be fair Mario IS synonymous with Nintendo. No one complains about Pokemon either. Apart from angry later gen fans furious at Gen 1 getting all the love and remakes, but nothing they can do there.

Honestly at this point Fire Emblem is probably a big enough franchise that I wouldn't mind one more unique and one more echo/semi clone. I'd be down with the latter being filled by Chrom and the former being Fire Emblem Heroes Kiran who in turn summons yet more FE characters onto the field for his moveset. Or Celica, Micaiah, Tiki or Anna if you wanted a more traditional Fire Emblem character.

 

[Questionmark222]

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone think that Villager still having his Up B necessarily disconfirms Balloon Fighter as a character?

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Someone brought up Baby Mario and Baby Luigi as echos of the Ice Climbers on GameFaqs and while it's cross-series, I think it could actually work with an Ice Flower and Koopa Shells

 

[YoshiandToad]

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone think that Villager still having his Up B necessarily disconfirm Balloon Fighter as a character?

Maybe.

Honestly I'm not sure what Balloon Fighter could even do. As much as I love Balloon Fight I'm stuck on how he'd work as a fighter, and everything I can think of Tingle can do AND more.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm sure you know that that's what I meant given the context. And with that understanding, the sentiment still stands, between Pit and Dark Pit it's more than a cosmetic difference, it's a difference in the actual properties of the projectile, and so it fails to be consistent with the distinction Bill made between Mario and Doc.
Also you never addressed "general knockback."

I didn't need to address general knockback. Video did it for me. And I wasn't arguing that point, so no point in bringing it up.

Dr. Mario was just a bad example in some ways. But in another way, it was addressing why he isn't a costume as well, because his Megavitamins have different properties. Many keep thinking he should be an alt costume. So while it's a bad example for Echoes, it's a good explanation for other people.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone think that Villager still having his Up B necessarily disconfirms Balloon Fighter as a character?

The same way it killed Balloon Fighter's supporters during Sm4sh's development?

 

[Hinata]

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone think that Villager still having his Up B necessarily disconfirms Balloon Fighter as a character?

I wouldn't say so. I don't think a single move would disconfirm an entire character.

 

[TheHumanSonikku]

I don't think you guys should be looking at this with such a.. fixed mindset, especially after Sakurai has been shown to be extravagant with his decisions before.
He's a madman, he does a lot of things because "Why not?", so I don't see why he can't play with certain creative liberties sometimes.

 

[DJ3DS]

There are ways to get attacks to deal a ridiculous amount of damage with any fighter, but it does come down to what equipment the fighter is using.

The following screenshot is impossible to achieve without the necessary bonus effects.

Before we move too far away from dumb customs jank, my personal favourite was to go for items which boosted attack and applied the "Item Hurler" bonus which gives a strong multiplier to damage given by thrown items. Equip it to anyone with a spawnable item (ROB was my choice) and suddenly their projectiles will instantly break shields or deal absurd amounts of damage and rumble whenever they hit their mark.

I wouldn't even mind seeing this back in just because of the absurdity of some of the things you could do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem with Balloon Fighter isn't Villager even. Sharing an Up B is... irrelevant. Making him work and being super balanced was something Sakurai already looked at due to the character constantly floating and "if the balloons are popped, now what?". It's probably just a case of balance more than anything else.

 

[Con0rrrr]

Gonna try and be in the thread more now that E3 is over. I'll pop in every now and then. Who all here was from Smash 4 speculation that I'll remember?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I think it's safe to assume with the return of Shulk and (possibly) Gaur Plains, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 music will be featured. I haven't played the game myself, personally, but from what I heard in the OST, "Mor Ardain - Roaming the Wastes" would be a very cool theme for a Xenoblade stage.

Also, this will probably sound weird, but can I just say how cool it sounds to say "Ultimate Snake" or "Ultimate Link" instead of "Brawl Snake" or "Melee Link?" We finally have a subtitle in a Smash game that actually makes sense to use as an adjective to distinguish between fighters across different games.

 

[Pakky]

Gonna try and be in the thread more now that E3 is over. I'll pop in every now and then. Who all here was from Smash 4 speculation that I'll remember?

Meh!!

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone think that Villager still having his Up B necessarily disconfirms Balloon Fighter as a character?

Not at all. Personally I loved the idea of a Moveset surrounding managing his 2 balloons. Like you could pop them with enough hits, and with them he has like 5 really good jumps but without he can't even double jump. And his Up B would just be inflating new balloons. I think he could be interesting.

However with the direction this game is going in I'm honestly doubting a retro character for the sake of a retro character.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Gonna try and be in the thread more now that E3 is over. I'll pop in every now and then. Who all here was from Smash 4 speculation that I'll remember?

I may not be remembered, but I was around for some of that.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think it's safe to assume with the return of Shulk and (possibly) Gaur Plains, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 music will be featured.

I figured the same. I see no reason why tracks from Xenoblade X and 2 wouldn't be featured.

 

[Pakky]

This is sick

 

[CannonStreak]

Gonna try and be in the thread more now that E3 is over. I'll pop in every now and then. Who all here was from Smash 4 speculation that I'll remember?

You may not remember me in particular, but I was here during the days of the ballot.