Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[staindgrey]

I mean echoes take very short time to make. I highly doubt is inclusion would prevent, say, Banjo & Kazooie or Ryaman.

Let's not underestimate the work needed to do a job we don't do lol. It would be far, far simpler to go the Koopalings route and just give Ryu a red gi, blonde hair and a new set of voicelines. Animating a new character to specifically be different from the one it's based on, plus rebalancing moves and traits, takes considerable work that, again, only my opinion, shouldn't really be spent on a shoto clone from another fighting game where he's already commonly present.

And to clarify, I was a Ken main in SF3 and vanilla SFIV. It's not like I hate the guy. I just don't see much of a point. Ryu's all this game needs, IMO.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Let's not underestimate the work needed to do a job we don't do lol. It would be far, far simpler to go the Koopalings route and just give Ryu a red gi, blonde hair and a new set of voicelines. Animating a new character to specifically be different from the one it's based on, plus rebalancing moves and traits, takes considerable work that, again, only my opinion, shouldn't really be spent on a shoto clone from another fighting game where he's already commonly present.

And to clarify, I was a Ken main in SF3 and vanilla SFIV. It's not like I hate the guy. I just don't see much of a point. Ryu's all this game needs, IMO.

I'm not saying I actively want Ken either, I'm just open to the idea is all

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I don't think so, I think we're seeing the next fighter in 2 months when the next nintendo direct rolls around.
there's likely only 7 spots left, and I'm pretty sure 2 or so are going to be secret until launch.

If we have to wait two months for another newcomer, we’ll get two shown. They’ll have to in order to keep the hype up until release. I don’t think it’s to far fetched to think they’ll show someone every month. A little tweet like “Hey, we’ve got a special announcement for Smash Bros tomorrow! Stay tuned!”, and you also have to think about Special Smash specific directs that could showcase more. I’m sure we’ll get one, because I’m sure there’s still plenty to show about the game. We could see newcomers then as well.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Well, ALL hazards back for Wily Castle not my favorite, but generally I’m all for many changes to differentiate each game from the past. So far nothing feels off in terms of changes yet.

Oh my gosh couldn't agree more

 

[StrangeMann]

So it's been said that the E3 version of the game... was an event version.... I wouldn't be looking at the roster slots as an indicator... size etc can change.

The size of the buttons can change, but likely not the proportions of the buttons.
A good example of this is the smash 4 demo compared to it's final roster: The scale of the width to the length of the portraits is preserved from the first demo we saw to the final DLC.

The first

The Final
The scale of the portrait changes, but not the length/width ratio.
In order to look at the viable options for the CSS layout, we have to analyze the length/width of the black bar behind the character portraits. Finding out ways to fill this black bar in a layout that is rectangular.
It doesn't have to be a perfect rectangle though: Smash 4's roster started out like this:

It just has to be done in a way where as much space of the black bar is filled as possible, usually in a symmetrical fashion. The problem is adding more characters would be an eye sore unless it was a good number: most likely an even number to make the sides of the CSS even.
Adding more than 72 slots on the base roster proposes a challenge if they keep the sizes of these buttons and portraits. If the portraits are any smaller, the buttons would have to be resized (sort of like wii u's 8 player smash mode, where selection buttons are very small) so that with 4 players, the 4 buttons could all fit on one portrait.

 

[Deleted member]

I like how Mario and DK's fists appear to overlap.

----

I noticed that too. It's such a weird tangent, totally throws me off. Bad move Nintendo, you're NOT supposed to let stuff like that happen, lol.

 

[CannonStreak]

Elma
Rex + Pyra
Spring Man
Pokemon Rep
Simon Belmont
Shadow
Dillon
King K. Rool
Dixie Kong
Geno
Fire Emblem Rep
Isabelle
Rayman
Issac
Ashley
Bandana Dee
Rhythm Heaven Rep
Captain Toad
Dark Samus

So, I made a list of possible, likely, predicted, guessed, popular, wanted and considerable characters that could make it into the game. Of course, some of these may get in as assist trophies while others may not get in at all. That said, this list is not perfect, but I thought it would be nice to create a list of characters that may make it into Smash or not, even though this doesn't include every character there is, just those that may be reasonable based on popularity, predictions, possibility, probability and such. Since we aren't getting many newcomers this time around, which of these characters I listed do you think will get in, not get in or become assist trophies? This is based on the number of mentions I have seen for each character, but you can tell me to add anyone I may have missed. In the mean time, you can add a character on your own that is not on the list if you like.

I know we have talked about who we think will get in or not before, but I wanted to do a more organized approach based on the factors I mentioned (possibilities, popularity and so on). Of course, needless to say, there may be characters that will get revealed that are unexpected and not on the list.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Some people seem to have a misunderstanding of what makes a character an echo fighter. They go into more detail about echo fighters here.

For those who haven't watched the video, Echo Fighters are going to share the same general attributes as their main fighter.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I finally made a thread discussing my in-depth thoughts on Smash Ultimate, speculation and roster-wise:

https://smashboards.com/threads/my-...ultimate-speculation-wise-roster-wise.455545/

I made this mostly for venting, but I would like opinions on what I should do next as a speculator.

 

[SlickWylde]

Master Hand Jr.
Mini Master Hand

Or my personal favourite.... Sandbang with small versions Master Hand and Crazy Hand as floating limbs.

I'd be down for that!

 

[Slavic]

So I’ve been thinking about Dark Samus in terms of them getting in as an Echo Fighter and there is a slight... issue? Aside from the fact that DS could have their own moveset (which could be said about all Echoes), Samus herself shows almost no personality or character in Smash, where most of her actual character is seen in ZSS. No voice lines, no personality showing animations, I don’t think an Echo DS would be different enough from Samus to be interesting and yet we’ve seen neither of their references in the game so far. These are all minor things, but just to provoke some thoughts about her place in the game. Personally I think Metroid deserves two full newcomers this game and would love it, but who knows! Probably will still be an Assist.

 

[Zinith]

For those who haven't watched the video, Echo Fighters are going to share the same general attributes as their main fighter.

"general?" So they are not glorified alts then...

 

[Murlough]

For those who haven't watched the video, Echo Fighters are going to share the same general attributes as their main fighter.

Didn't everyone already know this? The only 3 echos are Edgy Pit, Daisy, and Lucina. We already knew they'd be pretty much the same minus a few slight tweaks here and there.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

"general?" So they are not glorified alts then...

I mean they're glorified alts in the same way Lucina and Dark Pit were, slight differences but attack animations and stats like weight and run speed all stay the same.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Didn't everyone already know this? The only 3 echos are Edgy Pit, Daisy, and Lucina. We already knew they'd be pretty much the same minus a few slight tweaks here and there.

I suppose not weirdly

 

[lordvaati]

Final new comer guesses for me:
A 3rd party character(top guess from me are either Rayman or Ryu Hayabusa)
Another echo(top guess is Isabelle)
Isaac
Someone from ARMS
MAAYYYYBE Toad
Another Pokemon

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So I’ve been thinking about Dark Samus in terms of them getting in as an Echo Fighter and there is a slight... issue? Aside from the fact that DS could have their own moveset (which could be said about all Echoes), Samus herself shows almost no personality or character in Smash, where most of her actual character is seen in ZSS. No voice lines, no personality showing animations, I don’t think an Echo DS would be different enough from Samus to be interesting and yet we’ve seen neither of their references in the game so far. These are all minor things, but just to provoke some thoughts about her place in the game. Personally I think Metroid deserves two full newcomers this game and would love it, but who knows! Probably will still be an Assist.

I think the bigger issue with Dark Samus is that Samus' general moveset just doesn't mesh with her, yeah they could change the fire to phazon but seeing her kicking and shooting missles would just be strange tbh and doesn't reflect the way dark samus fights at all, no barriers and shockwaves of phazon or anything, she also flies and teleports in-game

 

[papagenos]

So I’ve been thinking about Dark Samus in terms of them getting in as an Echo Fighter and there is a slight... issue? Aside from the fact that DS could have their own moveset (which could be said about all Echoes), Samus herself shows almost no personality or character in Smash, where most of her actual character is seen in ZSS. No voice lines, no personality showing animations, I don’t think an Echo DS would be different enough from Samus to be interesting and yet we’ve seen neither of their references in the game so far. These are all minor things, but just to provoke some thoughts about her place in the game. Personally I think Metroid deserves two full newcomers this game and would love it, but who knows! Probably will still be an Assist.

Good point its partly why i think Alph is still a costume and not an echo fighter, how would his personality shine threw differently than it already does as an olimar skin?

the best way to differentiate him is to add rock pikmin somewhere but then he isnt an echo hes a new fighter with more work put into it. feels like dark samus would be the same, no way to show the personality change and what could differentiate the chaarcter would be beyond what an echo fighter would get.

I'm assuming samus doesnt have a dark samus costume now because assist characters can be K.O.'d and "count" towards your kill count and therefore it might be confusing if dark samus is an assist AND samus has that costume on and you K.O. one of them.So my guest is dark samus is simply an unseen assist character.

 

[Idon]

"general?" So they are not glorified alts then...

No they certainly are. They're just going to have slight differences in damage and/or knockback in some moves.

They're largely the same though.

 

[StrangeMann]

I finally made a thread discussing my in-depth thoughts on Smash Ultimate, speculation and roster-wise:

https://smashboards.com/threads/my-...ultimate-speculation-wise-roster-wise.455545/

I made this mostly for venting, but I would like opinions on what I should do next as a speculator.

I read all of it

If you don't enjoy smash speculation anymore, just don't get involved aside from on important pics of the day, days preceding nintendo directs, or in reaction to other announcements. Make a roster you think is likely, then just stick with your reasoning over the next months until the next reveal, and see if you were right or not.

If you enjoy socializing or theorizing, I personally find it fun to guess what a character COULD be like in smash, or how certain characters will play out in a competitive setting. Talking with other people about what they want or expect can be enjoyable, but I can understand how it can be tiring to make predictions and then be proven wrong. I guess it's all a matter of guessing isn't it? For what we knew at the time, your guesses on your roster were reasonable, but then again so was everyone else. I don't think anyone saw pichu, young link, and daisy on the same roster before. Don't let being wrong on speculation put you down, considering there was no way to gauge accurately what was going to happen.

If you think certain characters are extremely likely (like chorus men), feel free to guess what Sakurai would do for their movesets, but It's going to be a bit of a crawl from here on out. 6 months to go, and likely 5-11 characters left including echoes, and we know for sure the identities of 9/10ths to 4/5th's of the roster. But it's pretty safe to assume there's going to be DLC for this game on the other hand.

You could just be a far less active speculator if you don't want to deal with it, or you could decide to try speculating in a more innovative or fun fashion. I don't know what advice to give though: it's all up to you. I just wouldn't take it so seriously if it stresses you out.

 

[Zinith]

I guess to an autist like me, "slight differences" means "different enough to be separate."

 

[Rhubarbo]

Quick question: Is there momentum capture? It doesn't look like it, but my eyes might be deceiving me.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

What does everyone think of Octoling as an echo? I honestly think they're the most likely echo right now

 

[Slavic]

I think the bigger issue with Dark Samus is that Samus' general moveset just doesn't mesh with her, yeah they could change the fire to phazon but seeing her kicking and shooting missles would just be strange tbh and doesn't reflect the way dark samus fights at all, no barriers and shockwaves of phazon or anything, she also flies and teleports in-game

This is a good point. I’ll admit I haven’t played the MP games so I don’t know everything the DS does in their game aside from the AT stuff. I think this is an inherent flaw that applies to Echoes in general but they work better with a generic power set like Daisy or Lucina.

I'm assuming samus doesnt have a dark samus costume now because assist characters can be K.O.'d and "count" towards your kill count and therefore it might be confusing if dark samus is an assist AND samus has that costume on and you K.O. one of them.So my guest is dark samus is simply an unseen assist character.

This is actually a good point about the palette swap I hadn’t thought about and you’re probably right.

 

[Originality]

I said this before, but I still think gameplay isn't the main thing to separate echo fighters, it's more each character not being able to share the same taunts and mannerisms so echo fighters are there to give that character it's own personality without the development time of a fully unique character

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

What does everyone think of Octoling as an echo? I honestly think they're the most likely echo right now

I'd be shocked if it didn't happen tbh

This is a good point. I’ll admit I haven’t played the MP games so I don’t know everything the DS does in their game aside from the AT stuff. I think this is an inherent flaw that applies to Echoes in general but they work better with a generic power set like Daisy or Lucina.



This is actually a good point about the palette swap I hadn’t thought about and you’re probably right.

Yeah, like I don't completely agree with Daisy using Peach's moveset but it's not like daisy has an established fighting style, there's nothing in canon that contradicts her fighting this way unlike Dark Samus

I said this before, but I still think gameplay isn't the main thing to separate echo fighters, it's more each character not being able to share the same taunts and mannerisms so echo fighters are there to give that character it's own personality without the development time of a fully unique character

That would actually explain alph not being separate tbh (his final smash is still wrong but w/e)

 

[staindgrey]

Didn't everyone already know this? The only 3 echos are Edgy Pit, Daisy, and Lucina. We already knew they'd be pretty much the same minus a few slight tweaks here and there.

We Lucina mains were holding out hope that she'd get more substantial changes so she's not just "easy Marth".

It's not so much that it wasn't known as it wasn't believed.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

If we have to wait two months for another newcomer, we’ll get two shown. They’ll have to in order to keep the hype up until release. I don’t think it’s to far fetched to think they’ll show someone every month. A little tweet like “Hey, we’ve got a special announcement for Smash Bros tomorrow! Stay tuned!”, and you also have to think about Special Smash specific directs that could showcase more. I’m sure we’ll get one, because I’m sure there’s still plenty to show about the game. We could see newcomers then as well.

I do not understand this "they'll probably show 1 character a month to keep the hype up" mentality that seems to be everywhere. When have they ever done this? Where does this notion even come from? Does no one remember previous dry spells of smash news?

Sure this could happen. It just seems like an odd thing to expect. Especially since smash is one of the easier franchises to keep hype up for and it's only 5 months away.

Not meaning to call you out specifically yours is just the most recent post I see doing it.

 

[Idon]

Yeah, like I don't completely agree with Daisy using Peach's moveset but it's not like daisy has an established fighting style, there's nothing in canon that contradicts her fighting this way unlike Dark Samus

That reasoning is actually why I hate Lucina as a clone and echo.
She has literally zero connection to Marth outside of 1. Calling herself that name as a disguise and 2. Being a LONG descendant of him.

In fact, Lyn in Fire Emblem Warriors goes out of her way to say that Chrom lacks any of the grace precision that Marth has in his swordplay and Chrom mentions that he is entirely self taught so that throws passing the technique down out the window.
Lucina, someone who was taught the sword by Chrom's rough style, should theoretically know nothing about how Marth fights and yet, here she is, using literally every single move that he does, with a tiny Falchion to make it fit more.

(And in turn, Marth in his amiibo appearances of Fates and Echoes, reuses Lucina's animations so that's double dumb)

 

[Pakky]

any word from Verg on why no Simon?

 

[Nekoo]

that could be spent on a highly requested Nintendo property instead. For this Nintendo crossover game.

This argument is so dumb it hurt.
People seems to forget that back in the 90's, the third parties support was incredible for Nintendo and helped a lot. Whenever it's Megaman, Bomberman, Castlevania IV, or for god ****ing sake, the Snes version of Street Fighters II or the fact that Final Fantasy is what it is thanks to their SIX main games out on their consoles.
Sonic the biggest rival to Mario and the only one who managed to actually compete against him is nowadays almost an honorary Nintendo Characters with all of the crossovers with Mario, all of the exclusives games on it and such.
And we're at the point where Bomberman appear as a guest AT.

Those licence are on part with others Nintendo's Licences in terms of history and people complaining about "muh Nintendo crossover game" need to realize that we crossed that line since Brawl to the point where Sakurai said it was the "Biggest Crossover in the video games industry" during the Ultimate Direct- alongside saying he wanted to make the best smash a "celebration of gaming" and let alone the fact that the Third Parties sell consoles and game by themselves.

Sorry to vent about this, but it's something that totally grind my gears with people going all Nintendo elitist...

 

[Iridium]

Spoiler: Zelda's Design

Now I wonder what Zelda's design is based off of. Could be a mixture of ALBW/ALttP, or maybe not.

 

[domriver]

what time does e3 finish? is that when supposedly we will have another SMASH announcement? :D

 

[Fenriraga]

Went in again, second verse same as the first. Passed round 1, made it to sudden death for round 2, completely choked and let myself get grabbed. By PkSparxx no less. Back into line, haha.

 

[Idon]

any word from Verg on why no Simon?

Verg said that Simon will come later, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Zinith]

Spoiler: Zelda's Design

Now I wonder what Zelda's design is based off of. Could be a mixture of ALBW/ALttP, or maybe not.

Could've been a mistranslation in the Direct, as ALTTP and ALBW have the same name in Japan (Kagami no Triforce and Kagami no Triforce 2)

 

[DarkFalcon]

So I’ve been thinking about Dark Samus in terms of them getting in as an Echo Fighter and there is a slight... issue? Aside from the fact that DS could have their own moveset (which could be said about all Echoes), Samus herself shows almost no personality or character in Smash, where most of her actual character is seen in ZSS. No voice lines, no personality showing animations, I don’t think an Echo DS would be different enough from Samus to be interesting and yet we’ve seen neither of their references in the game so far. These are all minor things, but just to provoke some thoughts about her place in the game. Personally I think Metroid deserves two full newcomers this game and would love it, but who knows! Probably will still be an Assist.

Even though I'd be ok with Dark Samus getting in as an Echo, you are right. Dark Samus has a lot of unique moves, and she can't be a direct clone, as she's never used the morph ball. I can see some of her attacks being the same, but she'd more than likely have to be a semi clone at worst. She also moves completely differently than Samus.

However, if Dark Samus getting in as an Echo means Metroid gets 2 newcomers? I'll swallow my issues and be happy because Metroid got a lot of love.

 

[Wyoming]

what time does e3 finish? is that when supposedly we will have another SMASH announcement? :D

For now the daily updates seem to have returned. Think we'll slowly go through what we saw in the demo though for a while.

 

[staindgrey]

This argument is so dumb it hurt.
People seems to forget that back in the 90's, the third parties support was incredible for Nintendo and helped a lot. Whenever it's Megaman, Bomberman, Castlevania IV, or for god ****ing sake, the Snes version of Street Fighters II or the fact that Final Fantasy is what it is thanks to their SIX main games out on their consoles.
Sonic the biggest rival to Mario and the only one who managed to actually compete against him is nowadays almost an honorary Nintendo Characters with all of the crossovers with Mario, all of the exclusives games on it and such.
And we're at the point where Bomberman appear as a guest AT.

Those licence are on part with others Nintendo's Licences in terms of history and people complaining about "muh Nintendo crossover game" need to realize that we crossed that line since Brawl to the point where Sakurai said it was the "Biggest Crossover in the video games industry" during the Ultimate Direct- alongside saying he wanted to make the best smash a "celebration of gaming" and let alone the fact that the Third Parties sell consoles and game by themselves.

Sorry to vent about this, but it's something that totally grind my gears with people going all Nintendo elitist...

Well, when you snip out one sentence in a long string of posts, I certainly sound like an elitist.

But I was speaking specifically about the inclusion of another Street Fighter character. I'm totally fine with third parties. And it's awesome that they're being included. But the third parties should be varied and representative of different stages of Nintendo's life. Making redundant representations, like Guile or Tails or Raiden, isn't adding anything to what is, at its core, a celebration of Nintendo's history. That's just my opinion.

Feel free to vent all you want. But you probably shouldn't take what others say out of context in the process.

 

[SlickWylde]

I do not understand this "they'll probably show 1 character a month to keep the hype up" mentality that seems to be everywhere. When have they ever done this? Where does this notion even come from? Does no one remember previous dry spells of smash news?

Sure this could happen. It just seems like an odd thing to expect. Especially since smash is one of the easier franchises to keep hype up for and it's only 5 months away.

Not meaning to call you out specifically yours is just the most recent post I see doing it.

People did the exact same thing with Sm4sh. Also, Smash fans tend to get become really set in their ways, and this forum becomes an echo chamber. One person will say "Nintendo is doing an event this weekend, and they'll anounce a new character because it's June 19th, and X game was released June 19th 1987" and someone else will say "Yeah, that makes sense!" - Suddenly everyone starts beleiving it because of a "Well they're smart and seem to be saying it's true..." attitude. So then when the event happens and nothing is revealed, they get really bummed out.

I remember like 5 or 6 directs where fans were POSITIVE there would be a character reveal. I had to stay off the forums on those days, due to salt.

If it happens, awesome. But don't make up "It only makes sense" rules for Nintendo. They do their own thing.