Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Knight Dude]

In terms of Echo fighters, I think Chrom would make a ton of sense as an Echo to Ike.

I think it's kind of funny how much everybody hated on clones until Sakurai made a term for them. Now everybody loves the concept.

Anyway, if you have the chance or are interested, I made a thread with my thoughts on the whole week so far. I didn't want it to be a giant comment in here, but I would love feedback. Let me know what you think!

https://smashboards.com/threads/a-p...-long-time-veteran-and-a-fan-like-you.455547/

That much is true, I still usually refer to those characters as clones, but I suppose now they have an official term in Smash, people are more accepting. I think another reason as to why people are less negative towards clones in this Smash is due to the fact that this Roster is about EVERY fighter making a comeback, as opposed to focusing on adding as many new faces as possible like with Melee, Brawl and 4.

Not to mention Smash Ultimate already added Ridley, a character most people in the west wanted since Brawl, some even before then.

The no cuts thing is still kind of crazy. If you told me a week ago that Young Link and Pichu were back, I'd call you a liar.

Showerthought: What if we got an echo of an echo?

Can't wait to main Light Pit.
/s

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'm pretty sure Dark Samus does use the Morph Ball, just not the bombs. In Prime 2 she uses the Boost Ball in the first two boss fights against her.

And sure, if we're getting more Echo Fighters, she'd be a sick choice. Even if I think she also has enough to be more like Falco and Wolf and less like Lucina and Daisy.

I still think we're getting like, 5 more fighters tops, since the point of this Smash title was to add back EVERY previous fighter, which I was only thinking ICs, Snake and Wolf were making it back.

I remember an ability of hers looking similar but I don't think it was actually a morph ball. Could be wrong though. I thought she just curled up and surrounded herself in phazon and charged at you.

 

[Zinith]

Showerthought: What if we got an echo of an echo?

Waluigi basically

 

[RandomAce]

In terms of Echo fighters, I think Chrom would make a ton of sense as an Echo to Ike.

I think it's kind of funny how much everybody hated on clones until Sakurai made a term for them. Now everybody loves the concept.

Anyway, if you have the chance or are interested, I made a thread with my thoughts on the whole week so far. I didn't want it to be a giant comment in here, but I would love feedback. Let me know what you think!

https://smashboards.com/threads/a-p...-long-time-veteran-and-a-fan-like-you.455547/

At least he cleared the air and talked about how they’re developed unlike last time where they are revealed as full characters.

I don’t really like the idea of clones, they make the roster feel artificially bigger than it is. At least echo characters aren’t considered that seperate, but character like Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Young Link still feel similar while considered as seperate characters. We have 66 characters, but we really have less than that.

I only justify clones in the way done like Ganondorf or Toon Link, where they have different play styles while remaining the same moveset.

At least I can Ganon stomp characters as Dr. Mario.

 

[Curious Villager]

Feels like a lot of people are starting to assume that most of the unique newcomers will be blatant fanservice characters.

Just wanted to point out that it's not unusual for both Nintendo and Sakurai to want to showcase the biggest characters first before moving on to the less exciting characters. Don't be disappointed if Inklings and Ridley end up being the biggest newcomer reveals of SSBU.

This!

This has been the case for more or less every Smash game. I don't get why people go all "Oh Sakurai is going to include fan favourite characters this time around" like their implying that Sakurai included the likes of Megaman, Wario, Sonic etc in the past on his own whim or something.

Sakurai has always included fan favourite characters in Smash and he generally tends to reveal those first as those generate the most hype. Sure there have been occasional outliers like Wii Fit Trainer and Ice Climbers in the past but that's generally how he usually reveals his newcomers throughout the series history.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

In terms of Echo fighters, I think Chrom would make a ton of sense as an Echo to Ike.

I think it's kind of funny how much everybody hated on clones until Sakurai made a term for them. Now everybody loves the concept.

This is a question for everyone, does anyone actually love the echo concept?

You're not the first person to say this (sorry not picking on you, just the most recent person to say it) and I haven't seen a single person say they were excited about it. Most Daisy fans are dissapointed she's a clone, but happy she's at least in.

We're just discussing them because they are now part of speculation (and I don't mean clones are part of speculation, but these near identical clones with offical names now are). I guess I appreciate Sakurai being transparent with the concept, but I defintely don't love it. (Hell, once again one of the biggest conversations that comes up about echoes is Dixie and everyone HATES that idea).

Maybe I'm just missing where everyone is excited about them...

 

[Murlough]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but I feel like everyone is forgetting sceptile/grovyle. I would rather see grovyle than an other potential new pokemon rep let alone decidueye.

I mean I haven't forgotten, he's just never been a contender in my eyes. Might as well make an argument for Exploud or Volcarona.

No offence or anything he just isn't likely or anything resembling "likely."

EDIT: I'm not saying this as a Mimikyu freak, I'm saying this as someone who speculates and can see trends. Grovyle may have been cool but what are the odds honestly? Of all 802 mons him? A gen 3 mon? Out of nowhere?

 

[Whababa]

Showerthought: What if we got an echo of an echo?

That would be too noisy sakurai would never.

 

[Wyoming]

Would Dr. Luigi be an echo of Dr. Mario or Luigi?

I am making you all think tonight.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Showerthought: What if we got an echo of an echo?

That much is true, I still usually refer to those characters as clones, but I suppose now they have an official term in Smash, people are more accepting. I think another reason as to why people are less negative towards clones in this Smash is due to the fact that this Roster is about EVERY fighter making a comeback, as opposed to focusing on adding as many new faces as possible like with Melee, Brawl and 4.

Not to mention Smash Ultimate already added Ridley, a character most people in the west wanted since Brawl, some even before then.

The no cuts thing is still kind of crazy. If you told me a week ago that Young Link and Pichu were back, I'd call you a liar.



Can't wait to main Light Pit.
/s

Yeah, I would like to think that people would be satisfied with what we've gotten, but you never know I guess.

I'm just pumped that I've got Snake back. I still can't believe it.

 

[N3ON]

Showerthought: What if we got an echo of an echo?

This. This is what happens.

 

[Whababa]

Bring back chubchu

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

I'm just imagining Squid Sisters assist trophy and Jigglypuff's Final Smash at the same time.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

In terms of Echo fighters, I think Chrom would make a ton of sense as an Echo to Ike.

I think it's kind of funny how much everybody hated on clones until Sakurai made a term for them. Now everybody loves the concept.

Anyway, if you have the chance or are interested, I made a thread with my thoughts on the whole week so far. I didn't want it to be a giant comment in here, but I would love feedback. Let me know what you think!

https://smashboards.com/threads/a-p...-long-time-veteran-and-a-fan-like-you.455547/

But...but I liked clones

I have a feeling none of the original 12 will get an Echo Fighter. It seems like those 12 will get the whole top row to themselves and adding an Echo Fighter would screw things up.

(Assuming Daisy, Dark Pit and Lucina will be next to their counterparts)

Either the echoes get their own slot, or they’ll share with their counterparts (most likely the first choice)

I personally think that Sakurai created the term and added the symbols as a way to justify the inclusion of Dark Pit, Lucina, and Daisy. There was always going to be hate, and Sakurai made an attempt to diminish that hate right off the bat by assuring people that they don’t have their own, legitamite spaces.

For example, putting Dark Pit as “#58” instead of “28 E” would have made more people upset. By doing that, Dark Pit now, to the general audience’s eye, appears as his own slot, his own, singular character. However, assuring them that he is merely an extension of Pit, an “echo”, if you will, it sticks in people’s minds better that, no, he did not require the same dev time that another character might occupy.
“He’s not unique, but he doesn’t need to be! Don’t worry; he’s just an echo character!”

At least, that’s how I saw it. I don’t understand the idea people have that we’re getting a dozen clones because of this new term, but I suppose I’ll just wait and see.

that’s a well thought out way of thinking about echoes

 

[Knight Dude]

I remember an ability of hers looking similar but I don't think it was actually a morph ball. Could be wrong though. I thought she just curled up and surrounded herself in phazon and charged at you.

She has two moves like that. One where she jumps up, curls up like a ScrewAttack, and bashes towards you on the ground. The other is using a Phazon charged-Boost Ball, and it lasts a decent while.

View attachment 148392

QUOTE="Knight Dude, post: 22124277, member: 218984"]That much is true, I still usually refer to those characters as clones, but I suppose now they have an official term in Smash, people are more accepting. I think another reason as to why people are less negative towards clones in this Smash is due to the fact that this Roster is about EVERY fighter making a comeback, as opposed to focusing on adding as many new faces as possible like with Melee, Brawl and 4.

Not to mention Smash Ultimate already added Ridley, a character most people in the west wanted since Brawl, some even before then.

The no cuts thing is still kind of crazy. If you told me a week ago that Young Link and Pichu were back, I'd call you a liar.



Can't wait to main Light Pit.
/s
Yeah, I would like to think that people would be satisfied with what we've gotten, but you never know I guess.

I'm just pumped that I've got Snake back. I still can't believe it.

Dude, this game could very well be the Marvel vs Capcom 2 of Smash Bros games. Just throw in ALL the warriors with like 5 or 6 new guys and you're good.

 

[Ze Diglett]

If the character reveal scedule's anything like it was last time, then we're probably only gonna get 6 more characters. Out of all of them on your list:

K. Rool (I can see it)
Bandanna Dee (doubt it)
Geno (I can see it)
Simon Belmont (doubt it)
Dixie Kong* (doubt it, but I can see her being a costume change)
Chrom* (They haven't shown Robin's final smash anywhere. Food for thought)
Chorus Men (Not too sure)
Impa* (I can see it)
Decidueye (doubt it)
Rayman (not too sure, but I'm still leaning towards assist throphy status)
Dark Samus* (doubt it)

Why do people keep ignoring the possibility that we're not going to know the entire roster before the game comes out? Even if a majority of characters are unlockable in this game, that doesn't mean there won't be any surprise characters... quite the contrary, if history has shown us anything, there always are.

For the record, I'm not a fan of the idea of Dark Samus or Dixie Kong being Echoes. I believe as much as the next guy that it would be a huge disservice to both of them given what they can do that Samus and Diddy respectively can't. Given the information we have, however, it's just what I see happening. I dunno, I could be wrong on those two, and if I'm honest, I kind of hope I am.

This!

This has been the case for more or less every Smash game. I don't get why people go all "Oh Sakurai is going to include fan favourite characters this time around" like their implying that Sakurai included the likes of Megaman, Wario, Sonic etc in the past on his own whim or something.

Sakurai has always included fan favourite characters in Smash and he generally tends to reveal those first as those generate the most hype. Sure there have been occasional outliers like Wii Fit Trainer and Ice Climbers in the past but that's generally how he usually reveals his newcomers throughout the series history.

I think you people are forgetting that every veteran was added back specifically to please the fans, Daisy, of all people, was added as an Echo likely to please the small cult following that has existed for her since Brawl at little to no development cost, and Ridley is pretty much the most fanservice-y Smash Bros. pick we've gotten... ever. And that's ignoring all the mechanical improvements that were added at the behest of the fans, such as the directional airdodge, a generally faster-paced and more aggressive game, a Stage Hazard toggle, and more. Do you really think the Stage Hazard toggle was Sakurai's idea? Considering the name of the game is Ultimate, and that it's probably Sakurai's last Smash, I wouldn't be surprised if Ridley wasn't the end of the fanservice this game provides.

 

[StrangeMann]

Here are the list of the damage values for Ridley and Inkling from Max Ketchum. This is from 1v1. Still this is beta so things may change.

Ridley and Inkling damage values. This represents a game in development and is very subject to change before release on December 7! pic.twitter.com/DLXVXoiuM8

— LG EMG Max Ketchum (@MaxKetchum_) June 14, 2018

Ridley's dmg is really big on his specials.
I wish I knew if his throws had followups.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Would Dr. Luigi be an echo of Dr. Mario or Luigi?

I am making you all think tonight.

Stop making me think

 

[Wyoming]

Stop making me think

What if Plusle is an echo of Pichu, but Minun is an echo of Plusle, who is an echo of himself?

 

[StrangeMann]

Looks like Bayonetta was bugged in the Smash Ultimate demo: (warning: strong language)

FREE JUMPS

 

[Deleted member]

In terms of Echo fighters, I think Chrom would make a ton of sense as an Echo to Ike.

I don't.

Echo Fighters are supposed to have the same characteristics as who they are Echos of.
Chrom as a sluggish heavyweight doesn't really make sense.

 

[Arcadenik]

Sakurai will never be able to please everyone, and this can be seen by the reveal of Ridley. Ridley was a MAJOR fanservice addition to the roster, but a lot of people can't appreciate that because they're too busy wallowing around in their own tears after learning Waluigi is once again an Assist Trophy.

I get that the disconfirmation stings, but for Pete's sake! There are 65 characters as of now! Find something that makes you happy.

I am happy all the characters from Smash 64 to SSB4 are in this game (yes really) but I just wish that the remaining characters I wanted would join in the fun with everyone and I am sure others feel the same way with their favorite remaining characters..

The theme of Smash Ultimate is "everyone is here" and yet not everyone I wanted are in the game... and not everyone other people wanted are in the game.

It stings for me and for them to see that our favorite characters are still not in Smash with everyone... especially when Smash Ultimate could potentially be the last Smash game.

At least long-time fans of Ridley and Daisy will finally have some fun with them battling with and against everyone in Smash.

 

[Knight Dude]

This. This is what happens.

Don't tell me you wouldn't want command dashes for one of these clone characters. Zipping around the stage like some crazy asshole.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don't.

Echo Fighters are supposed to have the same characteristics as who they are Echos of.
Chrom as a sluggish heavyweight doesn't really make sense.

Ike isn't a sluggish heavyweight in his source game, so that doesn't seem to make much of a difference to be honest.

Not to mention Viridi specifically makes fun of Chrom in Wii U because he'd be "Too similar to Ike".

 

[Wyoming]

Who wouldn't want Ryu v Evil Ryu v Ken v Violent Ken in Smash?

 

[Fenriraga]

Good news guys. Got to get one last batch of games in.

Better yet, it was 1 on 1 for 6 matches. So I got to get a GREAT feel for how this game will feel in 1 v 1, at least from the perspective of a just about halfway decent comp player like myself. (That isn't me complementing myself, I'm literally only about half way to being consideredndecent, haha.)

I'll do another write up tonight.

 

[Knight Dude]

I am happy all the characters from Smash 64 to SSB4 are in this game (yes really) but I just wish that the remaining characters I wanted would join in the fun with everyone and I am sure others feel the same way with their favorite remaining characters..

The theme of Smash Ultimate is "everyone is here" and yet not everyone I wanted are in the game... and not everyone other people wanted are in the game.

It stings for me and for them to see that our favorite characters are still not in Smash with everyone... especially when Smash Ultimate could potentially be the last Smash game.

At least long-time fans of Ridley and Daisy will finally have some fun with them battling with and against everyone in Smash.

There's still a bit of time before the game comes out, I'm sure there's a least a few new characters left, clones or not.

I think since Dixie was pretty popular in the west, she'll have a decent shot. So I wouldn't give up hope yet.

I mean, if our dude Ridley can happen, ANY Nintendo character has a shot, no matter how small.

Good news guys. Got to get one last batch of games in.

Better yet, it was 1 on 1 for 6 matches. So I got to get a GREAT feel for how this game will feel in 1 v 1, at least from the perspective of a just about halfway decent comp player like myself. (That isn't me complementing myself, haha.)

I'll do another write up tonight.

Make your next 20 posts about Mega Man in this game. I need to know I'm getting into. I mean, I'll still main him even if he isn't mid-tier anymore, but that's besides the point.

 

[Curious Villager]

You know as unlikely as it may be. I really hope they will do a global testfire for Smash Ultimate or something like that at some point. Even if it was with a limited roster.

Though I doubt they would do it, probably due to potential datamines and all...

 

[Wyoming]

You know as unlikely as it may be. I really hope they will do a global testfire for Smash Ultimate or something like that at some point. Even if it was with a limited roster.

Though I doubt they would do it, probably due to potential datamines and all...

Hey buddy, I still don't have a Switch. Don't make me buy one so soon.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

This is a question for everyone, does anyone actually love the echo concept?

You're not the first person to say this (sorry not picking on you, just the most recent person to say it) and I haven't seen a single person say they were excited about it. Most Daisy fans are dissapointed she's a clone, but happy she's at least in.

We're just discussing them because they are now part of speculation (and I don't mean clones are part of speculation, but these near identical clones with offical names now are). I guess I appreciate Sakurai being transparent with the concept, but I defintely don't love it. (Hell, once again one of the biggest conversations that comes up about echoes is Dixie and everyone HATES that idea).

Maybe I'm just missing where everyone is excited about them...

I think it's just an attempt to get away from the negative stigma clones have.

Weather or not that will work remains to be seen. I'm indifferent to it personally.

 

[Originality]

This is a question for everyone, does anyone actually love the echo concept?

I don't love it but I do like it. I think it's a good idea to get more characters in.

What if Plusle is an echo of Pichu, but Minun is an echo of Plusle, who is an echo of himself?

I would LOVE Pichu to have Plusle/Minun alts, but I don't think they should be echoes

 

[Cosmic77]

This is a question for everyone, does anyone actually love the echo concept?

You're not the first person to say this (sorry not picking on you, just the most recent person to say it) and I haven't seen a single person say they were excited about it. Most Daisy fans are dissapointed she's a clone, but happy she's at least in.

We're just discussing them because they are now part of speculation (and I don't mean clones are part of speculation, but these near identical clones with offical names now are). I guess I appreciate Sakurai being transparent with the concept, but I defintely don't love it. (Hell, once again one of the biggest conversations that comes up about echoes is Dixie and everyone HATES that idea).

Maybe I'm just missing where everyone is excited about them...

I'm glad that we're acknowledging Lucina and Dark Pit as something beneath a standard character, but I don't like the concept.

Clones are supposed to be last-minute ideas for characters that felt worthy enough to be on the roster. I'm not comfortable with Sakurai specifically looking for possible clones, especially if his choices end up being characters who deserved something far better.

 

[Deleted member]

Ike isn't a sluggish heavyweight in his source game, so that doesn't seem to make much of a difference to be honest.

Not to mention Viridi specifically makes fun of Chrom in Wii U because he'd be "Too similar to Ike".

But then Palutena points out that Chrom "doesn't even have an Aether recovery like Ike does". :V
Do you think Sakurai would make a liar out of his waifu goddess?

But on a serious note, Sakurai envisioned Chrom as an in-between of Marth and Ike in terms of speed and power. Making him exactly like Ike in that department goes against that.

 

[Troykv]

Feels like a lot of people are starting to assume that most of the unique newcomers will be blatant fanservice characters.

Just wanted to point out that it's not unusual for both Nintendo and Sakurai to want to showcase the biggest characters first before moving on to the less exciting characters. Don't be disappointed if Inklings and Ridley end up being the biggest newcomer reveals of SSBU.

Oh yeah, I'm not expecting something to be more hype inducing than Ridley; I'm just expecting anything xDU.

BTW, Which characters do you predict?

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

I'm glad that we're acknowledging Lucina and Dark Pit as something beneath a standard character, but I don't like the concept.

Clones are supposed to be last-minute ideas for characters that felt worthy enough to be on the roster. I'm not comfortable with Sakurai specifically looking for possible clones, especially if his choices end up being characters who deserved something far better.

I think Daisy was a Echo Character only used to introduce the concept. I think most other Echos will be added late game.

Oh yeah, I'm not expecting something to be more hype inducing than Ridley; I'm just expecting anything xDU.

BTW, Which characters do you predict?

All of us or just Cosmic77? If all of us then...

Rex/Pyra
Chibi Robo
Bandana Waddle Dee

aaannnddd that's it.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Apologies for being off topic with a late response

But what about Akuma and his demon flip, airgrab, divekick, and the already air fireball and teleport. Wouldn't that make him more different compared to Ken?

I was talking about Akuma as he appears in SFII. He didn't get the other stuff you mention until later (). The air fireball is something Ryu now does anyway except his is horizontal, so you could just make Akuma's diagonal, and the teleport isn't a teleport, it's a slow command dash, which can just be a roll using a recycled pose from another move (since that's how it's animated anyway).
I don't think there's anything wrong with giving Akuma those moves, but the ones that have always defined him are the dash, air hado, and Raging Demon, whereas Ken simply isn't Ken if he doesn't have his flashy kicks. On account of that, if there had to be an echo, Akuma would make more sense because it would be easier to represent the core of his character.
Well, no, Evil Ryu might actually be the easiest, since his character is literally made exclusively from Ryu's sprites in USFII:FC (with other special effects thrown on). But also I don't think anyone wants Evil Ryu over literally any other shoto clone, though I could be mistaken...

 

[Cosmic77]

Oh yeah, I'm not expecting something to be more hype inducing than Ridley; I'm just expecting anything xDU.

BTW, Which characters do you predict?

Characters I predict?

Ehh… Not so sure now. Even with a smaller list of newcomers, I'm still pretty confident we're getting a Zelda and Xenoblade newcomer, but I can't say for certain who that would be. I feel like Pokémon will get either Lycanroc, Mimikyu, or Incineroar, but now that we have nine Pokémon reps, I'm acknowledging the possibility of not getting anyone.

 

[ErenJager]

What's sheik's final smash?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

This is a question for everyone, does anyone actually love the echo concept?

You're not the first person to say this (sorry not picking on you, just the most recent person to say it) and I haven't seen a single person say they were excited about it. Most Daisy fans are dissapointed she's a clone, but happy she's at least in.

We're just discussing them because they are now part of speculation (and I don't mean clones are part of speculation, but these near identical clones with offical names now are). I guess I appreciate Sakurai being transparent with the concept, but I defintely don't love it. (Hell, once again one of the biggest conversations that comes up about echoes is Dixie and everyone HATES that idea).

Maybe I'm just missing where everyone is excited about them...

I like the concept since it lets us have more characters that people want, Shadow for example would be cool and make perfect sense but it makes me nervous, characters like Dixie deserve better than being a glorified alternate costume and the idea of them possibly reducing her to that makes me sad as heck, and knowing she'd be stuck that way the rest of her life as a smash character would be even sadder

 

[Zinith]

Oh yeah, I'm not expecting something to be more hype inducing than Ridley; I'm just expecting anything xDU.

BTW, Which characters do you predict?

My old furry OC from 4 years ago...