Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CrusherMania1592]

Expect: Mario, Pokemon, Xenoblade, Animal Crossing

Want: DK, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You know I thought about this, but I thought about why didn't they do this for Smash Wii U/3DS? If Sakurai wanted them that way why didn't he just put in Popo with a Nana alt? I don't see it happening. Sakurai also stated that another reason they didn't make it was they weren't high enough priority, so unless they come back as intended (which I think they totally can on the Switch) than I don't think they will at all.

They weren't high enough priority mainly because they can't just work on them forever. If they did that, they'd never release the game.

A lot of people seem to be under the idea that them having no future was related to their cut. However, Sakurai clearly also stated they tried everything they could think of them to make them playable on the 3DS. They definitely were a high priority overall, but it was a case of "we need to give up at some point", which is what they did. It's also clear that if they could've made them work, it would've been during DLC they came back since they had way more time to work on them while doing other stuff. And we know what happened there.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

They weren't high enough priority mainly because they can't just work on them forever. If they did that, they'd never release the game.

A lot of people seem to be under the idea that them having no future was related to their cut. However, Sakurai clearly also stated they tried everything they could think of them to make them playable on the 3DS. They definitely were a high priority overall, but it was a case of "we need to give up at some point", which is what they did. It's also clear that if they could've made them work, it would've been during DLC they came back since they had way more time to work on them while doing other stuff. And we know what happened there.

I read into as, hey if Mario/Link/Pikachu had a mechanic that required extra development time we would have made sure to get them in.

Anyway I was just reffering to the fact that if Sakurai wanted to change how Ice Climbers worked I think he would have, but because they are low priority he'd rather keep them the way they are and not add them, then change them for Smash 4 or Smash Switch (although like I said I'm sure they will run fine on the Switch).

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

I would honestly be surprised if the Ice Climbers don't come back. The moveset is already there, they were pretty popular in Smash, and it's another NES character making it.
I don't know if the Switch could handle 16 Ice Climbers at once, and this might be a problem. But I'm confident in their come-back.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Remember, this is all assuming that the Switch isn't able to run 16 characters in 8-Player Smash. This is better hardware than the Wii U after all, you never know.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I read into as, hey if Mario/Link/Pikachu had a mechanic that required extra development time we would have made sure to get them in.

Anyway I was just reffering to the fact that if Sakurai wanted to change how Ice Climbers worked I think he would have, but because they are low priority he'd rather keep them the way they are and not add them, then change them for Smash 4 or Smash Switch (although like I said I'm sure they will run fine on the Switch).

I don't think it was low priority, though. Just more of "completely remaking how they play would make people lose interest in them". People actually care about the duo character. It's what made them worth playing. It wasn't even just chain grabs. Some don't mind Solo IC, but it's a vast minority. The majority loved the duo mechanic, and I doubt it's just cause of chain grabs.

While it's true he did separate Zelda/Sheik, we already know people never actually cared about the transformation mechanic and ignored it(only using one or the other), which is telling by things like Project M etc. that separated them. Hence, splitting them worked out without annoying the fanbases. Similar case to Pokemon Trainer, though people really did not like the switching mechanic for them being forced. Z/S was not nearly as annoying to others because it wasn't forced at all. ZSS/Samus suffered a similar issue from Pokemon Trainer, but also were fairly easy to separate since it was solely a Final Smash.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ice Climbers only managed to come back as DLC.

 

[Pacack]

I read into as, hey if Mario/Link/Pikachu had a mechanic that required extra development time we would have made sure to get them in.

Anyway I was just reffering to the fact that if Sakurai wanted to change how Ice Climbers worked I think he would have, but because they are low priority he'd rather keep them the way they are and not add them, then change them for Smash 4 or Smash Switch (although like I said I'm sure they will run fine on the Switch).

He did not change the Ice Climbers because the entire reason for their inclusion was the the two-character playstyle. Changing them to include them would have defeated the point.

 

[lltacx]

Maybe i missed it but is no one talking about Shovel Knight for an Indie rep? (if we get an Indie rep that is)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He did not change the Ice Climbers because the entire reason for their inclusion was the the two-character playstyle. Changing them to include them would have defeated the point.

And also how people entirely played them. This is why the other gimmicks being removed wasn't a big deal to him. The reason for getting in alone was irrelevant if nobody actually played them that way. IC's are a case where the duo mechanic so so beyond key that nobody ignored it. It was rare to see Solo Popo to the point it wasn't really something people noticed much at all in actual gameplay matches. Solimar, on the other hand, was far more known, and a feasible way to play. Technically, it isn't feasible under the 3DS/Wii U version(since his Up B is an actual Pikmin, but that depends if you really count that or not. He didn't have an Up B under the other playstyle, so eh).

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't think it was low priority, though. Just more of "completely remaking how they play would make people lose interest in them". People actually care about the duo character. It's what made them worth playing. It wasn't even just chain grabs. Some don't mind Solo IC, but it's a vast minority. The majority loved the duo mechanic, and I doubt it's just cause of chain grabs.

While it's true he did separate Zelda/Sheik, we already know people never actually cared about the transformation mechanic and ignored it(only using one or the other), which is telling by things like Project M etc. that separated them. Hence, splitting them worked out without annoying the fanbases. Similar case to Pokemon Trainer, though people really did not like the switching mechanic for them being forced. Z/S was not nearly as annoying to others because it wasn't forced at all. ZSS/Samus suffered a similar issue from Pokemon Trainer, but also were fairly easy to separate since it was solely a Final Smash.

Should've cited it earlier, I'm quoting Sakurai's famitsu article on Ice Climbers and any series without a future being considered low priority.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/i-answer-some-questions-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-461-464/

Also to other people reffering to my post about them, I'm agreeing Sakurai wouldn't want to add them that way, this was all in response to someone asking what if they were included that way. I'm saying Sakurai wouldn't lol.

 

[-crump-]

Sorry to just jump in here, but honest question: Did Sakurai ever say that 8-player Smash was impossible with the Ice Climbers? If I’m remembering correctly, they were only cut because he couldn’t get them to work in the 3DS version. For all we know, the Wii U version could have been able to handle 16 Climbers, and thus there is no reason to conclude that the Switch can’t handle the same thing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Should've cited it earlier, I'm quoting Sakurai's famitsu article on Ice Climbers and any series without a future being considered low priority.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/i-answer-some-questions-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-461-464/

Also to other people reffering to my post about them, I'm agreeing Sakurai wouldn't want to add them that way, this was all in response to someone asking what if they were included that way. I'm saying Sakurai wouldn't lol.

I don't think they apply here. He worked on them an extremely high amount of time during development by his own admittance. I also figured you meant that article, and I disagree. While it applies for characters like Wolf and Lucas, since their future is uncertain(the delays on SFZero pretty much really hurt Wolf since he didn't even have a revealed design for a very long time), and obviously the Mother/EarthBound series is dead, IC's didn't really matter in that case, since they were a two-time vet as is and people really wanted them back. And he was right. People were extremely annoyed the character was gone, moreso than most others. People accepted stuff like Snake due to licensing/Konami problems. Wolf wasn't nearly as popular as Falco and actually did have haters during Brawl. It got to the point that many actually wanted split rosters or for Solo IC to be a thing just to justify them back.

To be honest, Wolf and Lucas are the only ones that article is blatantly referring to. IC's is more of a coincidence, when it was made clear that their reason was due to the fact he tried everything to get them working, and it didn't work out.

Sakurai wasn't obviously willing to undermine their entire playstyle just to bring them back. Nor would he split the rosters since he wants everybody to have the same options(especially since it has a form of crossplay, to a degree).

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't think they apply here. He worked on them an extremely high amount of time during development by his own admittance. I also figured you meant that article, and I disagree. While it applies for characters like Wolf and Lucas, since their future is uncertain(the delays on SFZero pretty much really hurt Wolf since he didn't even have a revealed design for a very long time), and obviously the Mother/EarthBound series is dead, IC's didn't really matter in that case, since they were a two-time vet as is and people really wanted them back. And he was right. People were extremely annoyed the character was gone, moreso than most others. People accepted stuff like Snake due to licensing/Konami problems. Wolf wasn't nearly as popular as Falco and actually did have haters during Brawl. It got to the point that many actually wanted split rosters or for Solo IC to be a thing just to justify them back.

To be honest, Wolf and Lucas are the only ones that article is blatantly referring to. IC's is more of a coincidence, when it was made clear that their reason was due to the fact he tried everything to get them working, and it didn't work out.

Sakurai wasn't obviously willing to undermine their entire playstyle just to bring them back. Nor would he split the rosters since he wants everybody to have the same options(especially since it has a form of crossplay, to a degree).

So this is what I'm getting stuck on. I agree. He wouldn't want to change them. However if they were higher priority (a main series Mario/Zelda/or Pokemon character) I think he would have. So because they weren't high priority he decided to keep them the way they are and not bring them back.

Anyway I'm just circling here so if you agree to disagree that's cool. Either way I definitely agree he is not changing the Ice Climbers and that if they come back on the Switch they will be as a duo. And I'm pretty sure they can handle it, I don't see the article mentioning 8 player smash being the issue.

 

[Cosmic77]

Changing the Ice Climbers to solo Popo makes just as much sense as Sakurai keeping Rosalina in Smash Switch but removing Luma because of technical limitations.

Cutting the Icies in Smash 4 was the best decision Sakurai could make. Taking away the duo aspect of the Ice Climbers essentially butchers a major part of what makes them unique. I'd rather bide my time waiting for a Smash game where they could work together rather than taking a chance of the character being permanently downgraded to a less unique version.

 

[SneakyLink]

Sorry to just jump in here, but honest question: Did Sakurai ever say that 8-player Smash was impossible with the Ice Climbers? If I’m remembering correctly, they were only cut because he couldn’t get them to work in the 3DS version. For all we know, the Wii U version could have been able to handle 16 Climbers, and thus there is no reason to conclude that the Switch can’t handle the same thing.

I don’t believe anything was said regarding 8 player Smash, only that they were working on the Wii U.

Then again, the interview involved was before 8 players became a thing so it could be possible they weren’t working in that game mode?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Maybe i missed it but is no one talking about Shovel Knight for an Indie rep? (if we get an Indie rep that is)

From what i've seen he is mostly beleived to be the choice if we do get an indie rep but it seems like support for an indie rep has dropped dramatically unfortunately.

Sorry to just jump in here, but honest question: Did Sakurai ever say that 8-player Smash was impossible with the Ice Climbers? If I’m remembering correctly, they were only cut because he couldn’t get them to work in the 3DS version. For all we know, the Wii U version could have been able to handle 16 Climbers, and thus there is no reason to conclude that the Switch can’t handle the same thing.

(if im remembering correctly)
Nope. Never said it. In fact if im remembering correctly the only time he has talked about ICs was before 8 players smash was even announced.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sorry to just jump in here, but honest question: Did Sakurai ever say that 8-player Smash was impossible with the Ice Climbers? If I’m remembering correctly, they were only cut because he couldn’t get them to work in the 3DS version. For all we know, the Wii U version could have been able to handle 16 Climbers, and thus there is no reason to conclude that the Switch can’t handle the same thing.

No. He did not say that. We just know for a fact that he had to reduce models and remove Boss AI's to actually make 8-Players work. Thus, it's considered nothing more than a possibility.

People aren't sure on the Switch version, mostly due to the fact that having up to 8 AI's while also having a crapload of stuff on the screen combined with 8 normal players may still be an issue. It's not some assumption, just an observation of how it could still be difficult to make them work. Just having a stronger system isn't a guarantee.

So this is what I'm getting stuck on. I agree. He wouldn't want to change them. However if they were higher priority (a main series Mario/Zelda/or Pokemon character) I think he would have. So because they weren't high priority he decided to keep them the way they are and not bring them back.

Anyway I'm just circling here so if you agree to disagree that's cool. Either way I definitely agree he is not changing the Ice Climbers and that if they come back on the Switch they will be as a duo. And I'm pretty sure they can handle it, I don't see the article mentioning 8 player smash being the issue.

I don't think he would have because almost nobody plays them as a single IC. He pays attention to this kind of stuff. The character splits for the rest actually pleases the majority who never really used the transformations willingly. IC's are vastly used... as a team willingly. It's a matter of making sure the fans get the overall thing they prefer. Just a development thing.

Anyway, just saying "8-Player Smash wasn't an issue" just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't an issue. It just means it simply wasn't mentioned. We don't know. The lack of information is not hard evidence. Not when we have logic that makes it a possibility. I'm not nearly as worried about Smash Switch, but if they couldn't work under that, it's clear they'd be removed solely for that mode anyway. I'm banking on them being workable under it, but I'm always open to other possibilities. I got burned already not seeing Wolf back, and many(including myself) considered him a shoo-in, especially for DLC, heh.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Sorry to just jump in here, but honest question: Did Sakurai ever say that 8-player Smash was impossible with the Ice Climbers? If I’m remembering correctly, they were only cut because he couldn’t get them to work in the 3DS version. For all we know, the Wii U version could have been able to handle 16 Climbers, and thus there is no reason to conclude that the Switch can’t handle the same thing.

Well for one thing 8-Player Smash had to remove some stage elements and hazards, and even change some properties of Wii Fit Trainer's skeleton so it could run smoothly. That said, I don't think he ever directly stated so, but it isn't that far-fetched to assume the Ice Climbers couldn't work given the aforementioned changes.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Idea: Ice Climbers in 8-player is possible but limits stage selection even further.

Maybe down to "Black Box floating in White Void Land"
Maybe the Omega Version of the Box Boy stage?

 

[RodNutTakin]

I just remembered that Melee's Debug Mode could run 6-player matches with certain Action Replay codes. Perhaps one of us could test and see if the GameCube could process 12 Ice Climbers on screen without performance issues. Should the GameCube be able to handle 12 Ice Climbers at once, it's highly likely for the Switch to handle 4 more.

 

[92MilesPrower]

If the Switch can't handle 16 Ice Climbers, then we have an issue. Sakurai clearly wanted them in Smash 4 and I doubt he'd cut them in favor of having 8-Player Smash, and I doubt it's something he'd remove just for a character. The Switch has been proven to handle pretty powerful stuff, so I'm personally not gonna worry about it too much, though I have a little bit of doubt.

 

[Freduardo]

My super secret uncle dad who works at Nintendo said that not only are ice climbers included, but if you play with split joy con, you can hit a button, pass one joy con to a friend, and literally play single joy con each 1.5 player ice climbers.

Yep.

That’s real.

As authentic as a Rollex. The extra l is for quality

 

[Phaazoid]

Maybe i missed it but is no one talking about Shovel Knight for an Indie rep? (if we get an Indie rep that is)

I actually talked to the shove knight devs at PAX East and asked them about this specifically. Now I doubt they would have told me either way, but they told me not to get my hopes up. I personally wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

My super secret uncle dad who works at Nintendo said that not only are ice climbers included, but if you play with split joy con, you can hit a button, pass one joy con to a friend, and literally play single joy con each 1.5 player ice climbers.

Yep.

That’s real.

As authentic as a Rollex. The extra l is for quality

Not gunna like, ever since I first played melee always wondered how this wasn't included as an Easter egg.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I have edited my theory thread in a way that edits the roster image examples and bits of analyses, going over multiple theories on how Smash Switch's roster plan could have been handled:

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...could-have-been-planned-in-early-2016.454317/

Now it is easier to discuss the theories themselves than discussing the specific character choices I made.

 

[Pazzo.]

Sakurai: I've decided no one really knows Pokemon anyways and cut the Pokemon roster.

Wait a second...

*Rips mask off*

You're not Sakurai, you're his evil twin, IARUKAS!

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I just remembered that Melee's Debug Mode could run 6-player matches with certain Action Replay codes. Perhaps one of us could test and see if the GameCube could process 12 Ice Climbers on screen without performance issues. Should the GameCube be able to handle 12 Ice Climbers at once, it's highly likely for the Switch to handle 4 more.

It’d have to be able to run 4 more, WITH much higher quality models and textures, which is where the issues arise.

I’m confident the Switch could run a 16-character Melee, but can it run a 16-character Smash Wii U? Not saying it’s a port (very much a new game believer) but it will very likely have the same infrastructure.

 

[Pazzo.]

I actually talked to the shove knight devs at PAX East and asked them about this specifically. Now I doubt they would have told me either way, but they told me not to get my hopes up. I personally wouldn't bet on it.

There goes my life earnings.

Thanks RogersBase.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

The sooner we get a new trailer the sooner we can actually disconfirm things instead of "NDAs maybe".

 

[APC99]

I just remembered that Melee's Debug Mode could run 6-player matches with certain Action Replay codes. Perhaps one of us could test and see if the GameCube could process 12 Ice Climbers on screen without performance issues. Should the GameCube be able to handle 12 Ice Climbers at once, it's highly likely for the Switch to handle 4 more.

There's a lot of variables that you'd have to account for, like:

1. Maximum amount of items available on-stage
2. Assists / other AI present during the fight
3. Compatible with all of the possible 8-Player stages
4. Interaction between each character and the given examples
5. Potential issues with non-Icie characters, such as other Final Smashes

There's a lot more to it than getting six pairs of Ice Climbers running on a stage like Final Destination.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If the Switch can't handle 16 Ice Climbers, then we have an issue. Sakurai clearly wanted them in Smash 4 and I doubt he'd cut them in favor of having 8-Player Smash, and I doubt it's something he'd remove just for a character. The Switch has been proven to handle pretty powerful stuff, so I'm personally not gonna worry about it too much, though I have a little bit of doubt.

The main thing to keep note of is that some stages had to abandon their stage hazards if 5 or more players were present. It's likely that Smash Wii U couldn't perform efficiently if Ridley showed up during an 8-player bout, and let's also remember that the Poke Ball Pokemon and Assist Trophies also play a factor in all of this.

 

[MrReyes96]

Maybe i missed it but is no one talking about Shovel Knight for an Indie rep? (if we get an Indie rep that is)

I don’t expect any indie rep in smash ever, I think the most they would get is an assist trophy or trophy
I think shovel knight and Shantae are about as likely as Mickey Mouse

 

[Ura]

You could argue that Advance Wars doesn't really have any stand out characters that lend themselves well to being playable Smash characters, and it didn't have a foreseeable future.

Completely inaccurate. Andy is the stand out character of Advance Wars and the logo of that franchise literally bares his signature wrench.

Wars did have a foreseeable future at the time when Brawl's roster was decided. Dual Strike literally came out a few months before the roster was decided and Days of Ruin was on it's way. Smash 4 is a different story but that's another can of worms.

If you want to say AW wasn't relevant at the time of Smash 4 that's fine but don't perpetuate misconceptions like that.

 

[UserKev]

Remember, this is all assuming that the Switch isn't able to run 16 characters in 8-Player Smash. This is better hardware than the Wii U after all, you never know.

And 8 player smash doesn't even need to come back. It was honestly unnecessary.

 

[TheTrueHer0]

I don’t know if I’m the only one who thinks this but I’d rather have ICs or wolf over snake. Or at least give snake nerfs. He’s a projectile based character with very hard hitting projectiles. And his melee attacks do a lot of damage and knockback. I know his f smash was slow and slow = power, but it killed at like 40% and charged its a one shot. His aerials are also like ganondorf’s aerials from melee in how they are decently fast and hit like a truck

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don’t expect any indie rep in smash ever, I think the most they would get is an assist trophy or trophy
I think shovel knight and Shantae are about as likely as Mickey Mouse

They're way more likely in comparison. They have actual gaming history and coincidentally are game characters. That puts them leagues above an impossible character.

They're also hardly niche either, so that's not actually an issue here. Though to be frank, Shovel Knight(outside of Steve?) is the only Indie characters to make a huge splash in the short amount of time they existed. Steve? isn't Indie anymore, but still.

 

[TheTrueHer0]

And 8 player smash doesn't even need to come back. It was honestly unnecessary.

Like no one every played 8 player smash. I’d rather have an actual singer player mode (smash 4 singleplayer sucked) than 8 player smash. Also the switch probably can’t handle 8 ICs (if they are in the game)

 

[MrReyes96]

They're way more likely in comparison. They have actual gaming history and coincidentally are game characters. That puts them leagues above an impossible character.

They're also hardly niche either, so that's not actually an issue here. Though to be frank, Shovel Knight(outside of Steve?) is the only Indie characters to make a huge splash in the short amount of time they existed. Steve? isn't Indie anymore, but still.

I may be exaggerating a bit but I just honestly never see it happening, I am prepared to eat crow if I’m wrong but I think people who expect either of them are getting their hopes up too much

 

[TheTrueHer0]

I Mean shovel knight might be possible but someone like shantae is about as likely as Tetris block. But who knows, I might be incorrect when smash 5 comes out