Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[True Blue Warrior]

I don’t expect any indie rep in smash ever, I think the most they would get is an assist trophy or trophy
I think shovel knight and Shantae are about as likely as Mickey Mouse

Nah. At least those two characters wouldn't be an absolute licensing nightmare.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I may be exaggerating a bit but I just honestly never see it happening, I am prepared to eat crow if I’m wrong but I think people who expect either of them are getting their hopes up too much

An extremely notable 3rd party who Nintendo has pushed more than any other actually has a pretty reasonable chance. No Indie(beyond Steve?) ever got this big that quickly at best. That definitely makes him quite possible.

Also, the fact Sakurai wants Geno in meaning having a "gaming history" alone isn't the only thing that matters. It's just something he looks for among options. Things like being easy to license, fun to play as, and easy to make a mvoeset for is still vastly important. That's actually why Ryu took a bit longer to get in. He didn't have a moveset idea. Albeit, the fact he's owned by a different company than MegaMan was relevant too for licensing. No package deals like with Geno/Chocobo Mii Hat/Cloud(and other FFVII stuff with the stage, music, and trophies).

 

[ErenJager]

Maybe i missed it but is no one talking about Shovel Knight for an Indie rep? (if we get an Indie rep that is)

I don't consider Shovel Knight very likely for the time being, as there hasn't been much shown in regards to Smash Switch's direction/ character inclusions.

Right now i'm sorta in a limbo of knowledge between Smash 4 and Smash 5.

Smash 4 established a trend which will either be continued or broken with Smash 5, the moment that trend is broken the chances will increase of Shovel Knights inclusion.

That trend being there was no Western third party companies with playable characters, only major Japanese companies got playable character representation.

Furthermore most of the third parties were major icons in gaming, except Bayo who was relatively new, and the 'winner' of the ballot, and a series Nintendo invested in. So although Bayo doesn't reach the icon status of the others, she has many exceptional reasons, so making a comparison for non-iconic/ newer third parties doesn't hold much water if Bayo is the only example/ comparison.

However Smash 4 also had a habit of smashing expectations and breaking "rules" so that is one trend that could be continued, or perhaps not in Smash 5.

At this point only time will tell really.

I personally would rather not see Shovel Knight Smash, but if he made it in, i'd grow to accept it of course.

I just really don't want the flood gates to the west opened, I generally prefer the business practices of Japanese gaming companies. Plus the options and possibilities becoming overwhelming. But that's just an opinion.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Like no one every played 8 player smash. I’d rather have an actual singer player mode (smash 4 singleplayer sucked) than 8 player smash. Also the switch probably can’t handle 8 ICs (if they are in the game)

Huge disagree here. Smash 8 players was GREAT for parties. Didn't have 4+ people waiting to play anymore. I want more features too but I don't want them to cut fun features like that. As for ICs... I want them back but idk.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What exactly is wrong with Western third party characters? The answer is seriously nothing.

If they don't have enough of a gaming history, that's one thing, but many do. Rabbids, Rayman, just for two major examples. Shovel Knight is arguably there.

Also, there is no floodgates opened in the first place. They already are. What matters is they're a third party with a gaming history. Also, the whole Japanese Bias is unfounded at this point. Sakurai made that clear when he didn't put in Takamaru, as well as rejected many characters like Donbe & Hikari. It's worldwide appeal that's most important as is, not what country they originated from. He's not xenophobic. Fire Emblem was the only Japanese-only series to get characters, but that was more due to the fact they wanted to let players beyond Japan experience characters from the series, realizing it would unite players more instead of separating them by regions. While there's enough annoying bits related to that(lack of language options outside of Melee, many Masterpiece issues, though the latter at least has the excuse that the games may have licensing problems/harder to translate. There's a reason EarthBound took a long time to get re-released).

 

[Blargg888]

I'd also like to mention that I played 8 Player Smash all the time.

Just because you didn't use a mode that much doesn't mean that the mode doesn't get used at all.

The thing about 8 player Smash itself is that it's more than just a "fun side mode" it's a mode that allows you to have even more people play Smash with you, even if you have more than 4 players. 8 Player Smash is also 7 Player Smash, 6 Player Smash, and 5 Player Smash. It's fun and has utility. Cutting it is a pretty bad idea, because it's a really good mode.

 

[MrReyes96]

An extremely notable 3rd party who Nintendo has pushed more than any other actually has a pretty reasonable chance. No Indie(beyond Steve?) ever got this big that quickly at best. That definitely makes him quite possible.

Also, the fact Sakurai wants Geno in meaning having a "gaming history" alone isn't the only thing that matters. It's just something he looks for among options. Things like being easy to license, fun to play as, and easy to make a mvoeset for is still vastly important. That's actually why Ryu took a bit longer to get in. He didn't have a moveset idea. Albeit, the fact he's owned by a different company than MegaMan was relevant too for licensing. No package deals like with Geno/Chocobo Mii Hat/Cloud(and other FFVII stuff with the stage, music, and trophies).

I was referring to shovel knight and shantae
Steve is a different case, but I wouldn’t call him indie since he’s owned by Microsoft

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was referring to shovel knight and shantae
Steve is a different case, but I wouldn’t call him indie since he’s owned by Microsoft

Steve? originated as Indie, that's all I meant.

Shovel Knight is leagues above Shantae at this point, but that's due to way more promotion in many ways. More crossovers, amiibo, more campaigns, etc. People are way more aware of who he is in comparison these days due to this.

Either way, you shouldn't compare any video game character to a non-video game character. It doesn't make sense. That said, I understand why some think he isn't iconic enough yet. I can understand that. He feels up there, just not on the levels of someone like Ryu or Cloud(who aren't nearly as much of a household names as ones like Sonic, and oddly enough, MegaMan can go either way).

 

[ErenJager]

What exactly is wrong with Western third party characters? The answer is seriously nothing.

If they don't have enough of a gaming history, that's one thing, but many do. Rabbids, Rayman, just for two major examples. Shovel Knight is arguably there.

Also, there is no floodgates opened in the first place. They already are. What matters is they're a third party with a gaming history. Also, the whole Japanese Bias is unfounded at this point. Sakurai made that clear when he didn't put in Takamaru, as well as rejected many characters like Donbe & Hikari. It's worldwide appeal that's most important as is, not what country they originated from. He's not xenophobic. Fire Emblem was the only Japanese-only series to get characters, but that was more due to the fact they wanted to let players beyond Japan experience characters from the series, realizing it would unite players more instead of separating them by regions. While there's enough annoying bits related to that(lack of language options outside of Melee, many Masterpiece issues, though the latter at least has the excuse that the games may have licensing problems/harder to translate. There's a reason EarthBound took a long time to get re-released).

I agree nothing wrong with the characters, enjoy many games too.
Currently playing Far Cry 5.

Ubisoft isn't a bad company.

Simply a personal preference that I prefer Smash to be Japanese focused.

Edit -

To your point about "Japanese bias unfounded at the point"
I'm not disagreeing, I don't think it's an actual bias - I think it's just easier for Sakurai to speak and make arrangements with other companies / individuals in the same region and language as himself.
But it's also a matter of fact that Smash 4 only had characters that were Japanese owned companies.

If this will apply to Smash 5? Don't know yet. Time will tell.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I agree nothing wrong with the characters, enjoy many games too.
Currently playing Far Cry 5.

Ubisoft isn't a bad company.

Simply a personal preference that I prefer Smash to be Japanese focused.

I think it slightly started off that way, but they decided to release it in other regions and dropped that idea. I know it was JP only for a while. Marth/Roy are pretty much the only examples at this point though. Everybody else has worldwide appeal anyway. Corrin could be another argument made at best. I mean, it's clear he does note JP characters sometimes more often. But it's never been shown beyond Fire Emblem to matter anyway.

But fair enough.

Also, wasn't really saying anything about Ubisoft being good or bad, just saying that Rayman and Rabbids are iconic characters. No more, no less.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

To keep Smash Japanese focused is to be dishonest about Nintendo's history and gaming history as whole.

The West has helped Nintendo thrive as much as Japan has.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's not forget that Sakurai asked for a Rayman design to make a trophy out of it. All they did was send a newer unique render. He wanted the Western stuff.

Sakurai is not trying to make it Japanese-focused. If it ever was at that point, it ended during Melee.

 

[ErenJager]

I think it slightly started off that way, but they decided to release it in other regions and dropped that idea. I know it was JP only for a while. Marth/Roy are pretty much the only examples at this point though. Everybody else has worldwide appeal anyway. Corrin could be another argument made at best. I mean, it's clear he does note JP characters sometimes more often. But it's never been shown beyond Fire Emblem to matter anyway.

But fair enough.

Also, wasn't really saying anything about Ubisoft being good or bad, just saying that Rayman and Rabbids are iconic characters. No more, no less.

Oh my point about Ubisoft was because I had originally said I dislike some Western companies business practices namely, EA and Microsoft. I just felt I had to vouch for Ubisoft, because I sorta used a negative blanket statement towards western companies, which isn't fair.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It is odd that Sakurai reached out to make a trophy of Rayman though. Though it's possible a lot of what Sakurai did with third parties that didn't get playabilty is just testing waters and interest.

The Rayman trophy, the Geno costume, etc, etc

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To keep Smash Japanese focused is to be dishonest about Nintendo's history and gaming history as whole.

The West has helped Nintendo thrive as much as Japan has.

Indeed.

It's why Sakurai both acknowledges characters and series with mostly western support.

I mean, look at Little Mac.

Obscure nobody in Japan.
NES Icon in NA/EU.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'd wager Duck Hunt is bigger in the west than Japan as well?

It was bundled in with the NES here and people know Duck Hunt as much as they know Mario because for a lot of people it was one of the first video games they ever had.

 

[ErenJager]

To keep Smash Japanese focused is to be dishonest about Nintendo's history and gaming history as whole.

The West has helped Nintendo thrive as much as Japan has.

Well I don't think Smash 1-4 were dishonest games.

It's not really about being "honest to a history", it's more of just region and language based convenience, and ease of implementation. The moment you need translators and multinational legal for contracts, makes it a little more difficult. Not impossible though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh my point about Ubisoft was because I had originally said I dislike some Western companies business practices namely, EA and Microsoft. I just felt I had to vouch for Ubisoft, because I sorta used a negative blanket statement towards western companies, which isn't fair.

Right, I just never was talking about that bit. I entirely agree with your point though. Their practices have made them at times annoying to work with. That I could remotely see for being a reason to not grab a character, as it wouldn't fit with Sakurai's views of how to treat DLC. But beyond that, I don't think it'd be an issue.

It is odd that Sakurai reached out to make a trophy of Rayman though. Though it's possible a lot of what Sakurai did with third parties that didn't get playabilty is just testing waters and interest.

The Rayman trophy, the Geno costume, etc, etc

...Is Square-Enix a Western company? I honestly never looked into that. >.<

Anyway, it feels more like acknowledging a very iconic 3rd party character. People were clearly more disappointed in the fact he was solely a trophy. Commander Video didn't get the same kind of reaction, but he's not nearly as well known.

 

[TheTrueHer0]

I mean, having to cut characters just for a little party mode is kinda ridiculous. I think as long as 8 player smash so doesn’t cut into the character roster or single player then I will be fine. One of the biggest problems with smash 4 is besides online play, there was practically no single player mode whatsoever. Classic and all star got dumbed down, target test was removed and a lot more. I also really want target smash to come back. I want it to be like Melee where everyone has their own target test but doing it how they did it in brawl would be fine

 

[Nekoo]

Funny things numbers 2.
People in the community keep screaming about representation in the roster/Trophy/Stage and such.
We can barely manage to have a clear point on that.
And recently we went with Third party representation taking too much places...
And now we go for EASTERN AND WEST representation...

Just a daily reminder....It's just a game where we have Mario beating the crap out of Link while using a Pokeball.
Let's not start to argue about representation even further.
Or else we can go on about MUH VILAN/ MUH WOMAN / MUH DK/ Insert franchise with """little""" representation.

Let's just continue our merry go way to have fun with what we have, which is basically the gamer dream crossover, without going too deep into that stuff-

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Square Enix is a Japanese company. It's a merger of two Japanese companies in fact. So neither the Square or Enix part was ever Western.

 

[ErenJager]

Right, I just never was talking about that bit. I entirely agree with your point though. Their practices have made them at times annoying to work with. That I could remotely see for being a reason to not grab a character, as it wouldn't fit with Sakurai's views of how to treat DLC. But beyond that, I don't think it'd be an issue.


...Is Square-Enix a Western company? I honestly never looked into that. >.<

Anyway, it feels more like acknowledging a very iconic 3rd party character. People were clearly more disappointed in the fact he was solely a trophy. Commander Video didn't get the same kind of reaction, but he's not nearly as well known.

Squares HQ is in Japan and it's major share holder is a Japanese man.

Also I think Ubisoft reached out to Sakurai, not vice versa. (Could be incorrect)

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Completely inaccurate. Andy is the stand out character of Advance Wars and the logo of that franchise literally bares his signature wrench.

I said you can make the argument, I wasn't stating it as fact. And just because you think Andy would be a good fit into Smash Bros. doesn't mean Sakurai does.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, having to cut characters just for a little party mode is kinda ridiculous. I think as long as 8 player smash so doesn’t cut into the character roster or single player then I will be fine. One of the biggest problems with smash 4 is besides online play, there was practically no single player mode whatsoever. Classic and all star got dumbed down, target test was removed and a lot more. I also really want target smash to come back. I want it to be like Melee where everyone has their own target test but doing it how they did it in brawl would be fine

Not putting a character in one mode isn't the same thing as cutting them wholesale. It's obvious that Ice Climbers would still be in the game if the issue was just 8-Player Smash.

But it wasn't just that.

And yeah, single player was a bit boring since Brawl(SSE aside), imo. Target tests too, but removing them wholesale really makes it boring as well.

Square Enix is a Japanese company. It's a merger of two Japanese companies in fact. So neither the Square or Enix part was ever Western.

Squares HQ is in Japan and it's major share holder is a Japanese man.

Also I think Ubisoft reached out to Sakurai, not vice versa. (Could be incorrect)

Ah. Not sure why you mentioned Geno then, Roger.

Anyway, I remember reading Sakurai reaching out to them instead. I don't have the Miiverse link. So I could be misremembering.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I was just saying a theory about why Rayman got a trophy, why Heihachi and Geno were costumes etc.

It felt a bit like Sakurai was saying ''How would you like to see these series in Smash?" without actually committing to adding them right away.

 

[ErenJager]

Not putting a character in one mode isn't the same thing as cutting them wholesale. It's obvious that Ice Climbers would still be in the game if the issue was just 8-Player Smash.

But it wasn't just that.

And yeah, single player was a bit boring since Brawl(SSE aside), imo. Target tests too, but removing them wholesale really makes it boring as well.



Ah. Not sure why you mentioned Geno then, Roger.

Anyway, I remember reading Sakurai reaching out to them instead. I don't have the Miiverse link. So I could be misremembering.

I think Sakurai spoke about it in a direct, but I'm misremembering too.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I mean, having to cut characters just for a little party mode is kinda ridiculous. I think as long as 8 player smash so doesn’t cut into the character roster or single player then I will be fine. One of the biggest problems with smash 4 is besides online play, there was practically no single player mode whatsoever. Classic and all star got dumbed down, target test was removed and a lot more. I also really want target smash to come back. I want it to be like Melee where everyone has their own target test but doing it how they did it in brawl would be fine

Smash is at heart a multiplayer/party game though, not a single player game.

But, and this depends on what you believe, I am a firm believer this game started as a port so I doubt they'd have to rebuild 8 player smash from the ground up so they can definitely work on new modes. Plus with the switch being portable I think there will be a strong focus on Single Player and Multiplayer combined. So I wouldn't worry too much

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was just saying a theory about why Rayman got a trophy, why Heihachi and Geno were costumes etc.

It felt a bit like Sakurai was saying ''How would you like to see these series in Smash?" without actually committing to adding them right away.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I'm happy we got these nods too. I find it funny that Geno's only other appearances is two cameos beyond his first appearance. Albeit, not that it isn't understandable.

I think Sakurai spoke about it in a direct, but I'm misremembering too.

I know he spoke of the trophy on Miiverse itself too. I think just the bit about the render. Might not have mentioned who asked first. Just that he asked for a simple concept image to work with and they sent a new one.

 

[Pacack]

So this is what I'm getting stuck on. I agree. He wouldn't want to change them. However if they were higher priority (a main series Mario/Zelda/or Pokemon character) I think he would have. So because they weren't high priority he decided to keep them the way they are and not bring them back.

Anyway I'm just circling here so if you agree to disagree that's cool. Either way I definitely agree he is not changing the Ice Climbers and that if they come back on the Switch they will be as a duo. And I'm pretty sure they can handle it, I don't see the article mentioning 8 player smash being the issue.

I imagine that if a similar situation happened with a character like Rosalina, Sakurai would have given up on including her as well.

In regards to someone like Mario, Pikachu, or Link, it's harder to compare. I've always tended to view those characters as exceptions to typical roster selection.

If it was Inklings that couldn't be made to work with the stage painting mechanic, for example, you're right in saying Sakurai would likely start from the ground up to include the character because of how popular they are.

I think the issue is that Ice Climbers are an established veteran and not a character that can be reworked, but also one that isn't going to undermine the series fundamentally like the huge all stars of Nintendo.

Ultumately, I think that's not a matter of Ice Climbers being excluded due to lack of relevance as much as it is that those all stars are on a different tier altogether. They're required, not just high on the priority list, and should probably be treated separately.

That's just my two cents, though.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Fire Emblem was the only Japanese-only series to get characters, but that was more due to the fact they wanted to let players beyond Japan experience characters from the series, realizing it would unite players more instead of separating them by regions.

Interviewer: As for the rationale behind wanting to add Marth, was it because you felt that out of Nintendo’s many franchises, Fire Emblem is one that should be included?

Sakurai: That is a big part of it, and in terms of character diversity I did want more variation in terms of sword-wielding characters. I thought in comparison to Link—who’s more of a strong, direct swordsman—someone with finesse, a swordsman who relied more on technique, would be a lot of fun. On top of that, when we narrowed the possibilities down to the popular franchises of the time, we felt some restrictions. So among the possibilities, Fire Emblem was a franchise boasting multiple popular titles, and I thought there was more than enough value in including a character from Fire Emblem. So, in the next installment, Super Smash Bros. Melee, I had decided to include Marth at the start. Then, while thinking about a potential clone character, Roy came up. His game was in development at the time, and so he was added.

Sakurai: During development, I also had meetings with NoA. We talked about removing Roy for the NA release, but in the end they said, “He’ll be fun, so let’s leave him as is.”

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/

I don't see anything about uniting players from different regions.

 

[JamesDNaux]

What exactly is wrong with Western third party characters? The answer is seriously nothing.

I believe most of the stigma against western characters stems from this article:

That said, the game developer side of me simply cannot rejoice at this news because Japanese games have all but disappeared from the list of Top 10 Highest-Selling Games Worldwide.

Thankfully, Smash was a game that ended up supporting a lot of other games. It’s been proven that including a character as a fighter generates publicity for said character and their respective series. I’m very pleased that Smash can positively promote other titles.

Put two and two together and Sakurai seems more likely to add more Japanese franchises to put them in the spotlight.

Well, that and the fact that it's yet to happen.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/

I don't see anything about uniting players from different regions.

Yeah, I derped on that.

I believe most of the stigma against western characters stems from this article:




Put two and two together and Sakurai seems more likely to add more Japanese franchises to put them in the spotlight.

Well, that and the fact that it's yet to happen.

Diddy Kong and Little Mac aside, anyway. But yeah, that's true. I don't think it's nearly as much of a problem as people make it, but ti's clear it exists. Just not so much of a focus as "that's what happens to work out a lot". One thing to keep in mind is that licensing and looking for characters can be pretty easy when they're all available to look at as fast as possible. He lives in Japan. You put two and two together, and...

 

[Staarih]

It is odd that Sakurai reached out to make a trophy of Rayman though. Though it's possible a lot of what Sakurai did with third parties that didn't get playabilty is just testing waters and interest

I think it might have had something to do with Rayman Legends starting out as a Wii U exclusive (and remaining as one in Japan, where it was also published by Nintendo, another point), with all that happening in like 2012-2013 (during the development of Smash 4) so trophies were dealt with beforehand.

Though I guess it could've been testing waters as well, I'd definitely welcome Rayman in Smash - I can't help but feel there's some bias when it comes to not adding western characters, so I'd gladly see that pattern break.

 

[Cosmic77]

Come to think of it, I've never really given much thought into the whole "we need Western characters" thing.

Honestly, the only thing I've ever paid much attention to is whether or not the third-party character is iconic in gaming. Being Western would just be a bonus IMO.

 

[ErenJager]

For clarity.

Although Diddy & Mac were created by western devs.

They are owned by a Japanese company... and that's Nintendo...

The statement has always been "Japanese company owned video game characters".

Also it's not impossible that Smash 5 will have western owned characters.
It's just a threshold that hasn't breached yet... which it very well could... but yet to be seen.

It's like saying Poipole, Buzzswole, etc are Western because James Turner designed them.
Whose responsible for Trevenant and Shadow Lugia as well.

He's the babe ruth of pokemon designs... some really great ones... and some well.. ice cream cones.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Come to think of it, Dark Samus would be a western character as she (?) was made by Retro Studios.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

If we exclude the whole Third-Party debate, what "Western" characters are even on the table? The majority of Nintendo's games are Japan-developed to my knowledge, so other than gems from studios like Retro it's not like there are glaring omissions from the roster that are "Western", are there?

 

[Starcutter]

I was at a tournament yesterday and after mostly everyone left, there were only about 8 people left. We decided to do draft pick 4v4 teams first to 5.

It was the most fun I've had at a tournament.

If 8 player smash isn't a thing I'd be somewhat disappointed, but at least there would be a reason to go back to smash 4, just like how brawl has the exclusive subspace mode.

 

[Jubileus57]

For clarity.

Although Diddy & Mac were created by western devs.

They are owned by a Japanese company... and that's Nintendo...

The statement has always been "Japanese company owned video game characters".

Also it's not impossible that Smash 5 will have western owned characters.
It's just a threshold that hasn't breached yet... which it very well could... but yet to be seen.

It's like saying Poipole, Buzzswole, etc are Western because James Turner designed them.
Whose responsible for Trevenant and Shadow Lugia as well.

He's the babe ruth of pokemon designs... some really great ones... and some well.. ice cream cones.

I don't see anything wrong with Vanilluxe He legit is my second most favourite pokémon after Chandelure

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If we exclude the whole Third-Party debate, what "Western" characters are even on the table? The majority of Nintendo's games are Japan-developed to my knowledge, so other than gems from studios like Retro it's not like there are glaring omissions from the roster that are "Western", are there?

Rare
Retro
Next-Level games
and I think one studio that did dsiware stuff.